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The Anarchist
10-06-2007, 16:59
It seems to me in recent years that everything about Warhammer seems to center on the Empire. Now whilst in 40k i can understand a dominace of the Imperium as storys, them being the most played armies. however with WFB there is no truly dominant army.

it seems to me therea re plenty of armies that are getting used very rarly or for no real purpose.
Dark elves; they have still got an angry Eltharion mashing them in a mini-invasion. they also seem to be engaging the High elves on Ulthuan, and having an effective religious civil war! so why are we hearing nothing about them.:wtf:

Vampire counts; The Von Carstiens seem to be fairly united now yet they ravage through the Empire and then just go home.... so what now?

Wood elves; one of the more popular armies at the moment and now just seem to act bit like the Eldar. "oooops a threats coming send some lads to prevent it." its cheesey

Lizardmen; get invaded push back the threat and we hear nothing more:eyebrows:

To a lesser extent also; Orcs (I know they seem involved in everything in some way) how come they always seem to just be there as a standard enemy for Mankind. also they ravaged the Empire mashed on the best Chaos have to offer and now...... well were just going to sit an do not alot:confused:

Whilst the Lustria campagin was lots of fun but it seems it had no real story, and even then no repicusions. Much like Albion, it was great fun, should have had some long lasting results and its almost completly forgotten now (it was only 6yrs ago)

something else of slightly smaller note that bothers me; the Empire suffers gargantuan loss's over SoC and fighting the Orcs among their other problems. how come the nation and armies never seem to feel the effect of this!

It always seem's the story is about the Empire and that GW is just doing its best to cram everyone else with some random reason to be in on the campagins. so why?:mad:

DarkLord Of Naggaroth
10-06-2007, 17:11
well the empire is the centre of the old world and many other factions are near by. So it would seem the sensible place to base around. Although I know what you mean. It is quite anoying. however you have to remember that if they did do a elf war campaign there would be no places for any of the other armies (which would suit me fine ;)) and then they'd have to make up even crapper excuses for their involvment.

A neutral shade of black.
10-06-2007, 17:28
It seems to me in recent years that everything about Warhammer seems to center on the Empire.

Because they're the main human power in the Warhammer World, and because GW's customers are human. This is normal.


Dark elves; they have still got an angry Eltharion mashing them in a mini-invasion. they also seem to be engaging the High elves on Ulthuan, and having an effective religious civil war! so why are we hearing nothing about them.:wtf:

Eltharion was kicked out a while back, Malekith has been kicked out of Ulthuan once again (:rolleyes:) as of Nemesis Crown and the religious civil war will be sorted out in the next army book, dixit Gav.

What I would like is for GW to stop using deus ex machinae to have the Asur suddenly push the Druchii out of Ulthuan. It's stupid and clearly artificial, since all background establishes Malekith as one of the greatest generals to ever have lived, as well as an extremely potent sorcerer, and the Druchii armies to outnumber and outskill the Asur ones.

Giving us a permanent foothold in Nagarythe would work fine, with the battle being eternally locked there (between editions, we push in, they push as back, we push in, etc.; actually give them competent generals, for the love of Gork and Mork, or have them use the layout of Ulthuan to their advantage, or something. Enough with the current ridiculous situation).


Although I know what you mean. It is quite anoying. however you have to remember that if they did do a elf war campaign there would be no places for any of the other armies (which would suit me fine ;)) and then they'd have to make up even crapper excuses for their involvment.

Asur.org already ran three, and we won them all despite dubious odds in the last two. What else could you want?

Brother Siccarius
10-06-2007, 18:28
Asur.org already ran three, and we won them all despite dubious odds in the last two. What else could you want?

Something a little more neutral in who's running it. And all I get when I put in Asur.org is a bad search site.

Edit: Ah, Asur.org.uk

Bollo
10-06-2007, 20:08
I was also asking this same question to my friend why are GW campaigns so uneventful and the after much deliberation I came to the conclusion that there a business!, If anything to consequential happened it may involve them losing money or having to reprint army books or rule books something which may sound like a good thing and would earn them money but they would leave us the consumers feeling like we had been cheated in to re-buying resources, they would much rather keep us happy by having a campaign that never relay went any were that came with a few additions to some armies a campaign book and some limited edition characters not to mention free stuff like maps and charts in white dwarf (to make us seem like were getting something for nothing) all together campaigns are designed to make them money its like a holiday camp for kids they want to maximise the time kids are in there so they make money and the clever way they build armies up and those silly cards that makes sure you have the army book, core , special, rare choices just to earn a badge. Its all just a formula to make money, (one which I am not saying I am immune to, well usually I am just we all get shinny toy syndrome sometimes). This is why I think we see lots of campaigns and not a lot of story change

:cries: < like this smiley as it looks like a old chinese master a la droopy tache

Mister Hat
10-06-2007, 20:18
Agree with bollo - it is all about the money. I imagine there are more Empire players out there than any other army, and that is the reason they get sooo much luuurve.

shutupSHUTUP!!!
10-06-2007, 20:33
I think people expect too much from these campaigns. They are an excuse to push coloured pins into badly printed maps, come up with your own fluff that aggrandizes your own particular faction beyond all scope and play games of Warhammer with a narrative.

TheLionReturns
10-06-2007, 23:38
Personally I dread the prospect of Games Workshop using a campaign to move the story on time wise. I actually quite like the status quo and would rather they focused on deepening and broadening the fluff in the current time slot rather than moving things forward and leaving so much unexplored.

I do agree however, that the world is too empire-centric. I fully understand the reasons for this, but i feel it detracts from certain interesting parts of the warhammer world. I have been reading the Wood Elves army book as I'm starting a Wood Elf force and I love the idea of the secret war between wood elves and beastmen. Also I like the idea of crazy forest spirits causing havoc in bretonnia. Similarly the Dark Elf/High Elf conflict is another with great character. I dont see why there cant be a series of permanent campaigns based on conflicts like these designed not to impact on the existing world in any major way. Instead they would be confined to the specific regions of conflict. All GW would have to do is write a monthly or 2 monthly update with a bit of fiction. Personally I think this would add a great deal more character, and help keep certain armies popular after their initial releases.

The Anarchist
10-06-2007, 23:42
I do understand that GW is business and fair play they are goin from strength to strength so are definatly doing whats best for them. the capatlist in my cant critisise.

however as a gamer i just wonder why its always the Empire getting invaded or some such.
surely GW could equaly do a summer campagin based on say; invasion of Ulthuan. i mean we can instantly get the high and dark elves in there. Chaos can be siding with the Dark elves as they hope to destroy the stones holding back the chaos wastes. the Empire could be asked by the High elves to lend what little aid they can spare, equaly the dwarfs can be asked to do the same or even use this as a chance to settle some grudges.

see its realy not that difficult to get all the armies in on a campagin, gods know GW have used some weird an tenuous reasons before so why not now. just set in a differnt position to the Empire.
i mean the Nemisis Crown! why does it just happen to be found in the Empire, it could equaly have popped up some where differnt! why not near the Mountaisn of Mourn?
again it would be easy to get all the armies in the area for the campagin. most like the Empire, high elves, dwarfs, Orcs, and even lizardmen with exactly the same reason as presently stated (just with a lil bit further to travel.) the dark elves would still have thesame stated objective of more slaves, and the Ogers would have plenty of reason to be active in the campagin. they could even give us a few tit-bits about the cahos dwarfs which would kick ass!

it just strikes me as odd, and more than a little bit anoying!

scarletsquig
11-06-2007, 00:07
It's all about the borders... the Empire is smack in the middle of a vast amount of oppressive or not terribly friendly races.

Baron Von Rotten
11-06-2007, 00:25
It is always about Empire, Dwarves, and Chaos! These are GW "pet" projects. If you play any other army, you must get used to being 2nd fiddle. Even when the new version of O+G were being released, we heard more about Empire and Dwarves, then Orcs.

I stopped purchasing White Dwarf a long time ago, for this very reason! I understand the name of the magazine and everything.... but come on!!!! Share the love. There are over a dozen different armies that they could include. But it's all good guys (Emp+Dwarves).... all the time. I can't remember the last time I saw an article on VC, SK, or DE. Hell, when was the last time that magazine had a tactics article worth reading?

If possible...... Enlighten me with your wisdom

BVR

Arnizipal
11-06-2007, 00:29
It seems to me in recent years that everything about Warhammer seems to center on the Empire. Now whilst in 40k i can understand a dominace of the Imperium as storys, them being the most played armies. however with WFB there is no truly dominant army.

it seems to me therea re plenty of armies that are getting used very rarly or for no real purpose.
Dark elves; they have still got an angry Eltharion mashing them in a mini-invasion. they also seem to be engaging the High elves on Ulthuan, and having an effective religious civil war! so why are we hearing nothing about them.:wtf:

[snip]

Whilst the Lustria campagin was lots of fun but it seems it had no real story, and even then no repicusions. Much like Albion, it was great fun, should have had some long lasting results and its almost completly forgotten now (it was only 6yrs ago)

something else of slightly smaller note that bothers me; the Empire suffers gargantuan loss's over SoC and fighting the Orcs among their other problems. how come the nation and armies never seem to feel the effect of this!

The Empire is the 'main character' in the story of the Warhammer World. The time of Elves and Dwarfs is past. If the humans fall the world falls.


Eltharion is back on Ulthuan (IIRC he wounded the Witch King in battle there).
And what's this talk of Dark Elf civil war? Such a tiny nation as the Dark Elves really can't afford to go to war with a foreign nation and have a civil war as well.
There are hostilities between the Cult of Khaine and the Cult of Slaanesh and they are more openly fought than in the past years, but it's hardly a civil war.


The Lustria camapaign was a historical campaign. It described how the Skaven Clan Pestilens invaded Lustria.


The Empire feel the loss so heavily because all the fighting was done on their land. One Grand Province might be beyond recovery and another was half destroyed. This leads to refugees, failed crops, disease and all that other unpleasentness that war-torn countries bring with them.

A neutral shade of black.
11-06-2007, 00:52
And what's this talk of Dark Elf civil war? Such a tiny nation as the Dark Elves really can't afford to go to war with a foreign nation and have a civil war as well.

Tiny? Naggaroth is immense, the Druchii outnumber the Asur (they're not really concerned with anyone else) and their industry is one of the most advanced in the entire Warhammer World. They're hardly tiny. The Naggaroth of 2500IC isn't the Naggaroth of -2000IC. :p

The conflict between khainites and slaaneshi was supposed to escalate in the aftermath of the Lustria campaign. This was played out in a campaign run by druchii.net, which Gav acknowledged and mentioned might be in part used to inspire future developments in the Druchii fluff. That's about all we know.

Other than that:


The Empire is the 'main character' in the story of the Warhammer World. The time of Elves and Dwarfs is past.

Kerill
11-06-2007, 04:48
Personally I think of all the campaigns I can remember the albion one was the best for the simple reason that it included new units and new magic items that everyone could use for ever more- great stuff.

The new campaign looks like it will be the duffest one ever- the new special characters can only be used in the actual campaign (and they aren't that good generally and have little fluff), the actual crown is certainly going to disappear somewhere anyway. Unless they add a few more new things to the campaign or the reces get new magic 8items or the final winner gets a new special official character using the crown (which won't happen I guess) it's just a big waste of time :-(

Brother Siccarius
11-06-2007, 05:22
Every time a new armybook comes out or a new campaign is run, everyone makes the same complaints and yells about them being a business.

Well, put on your drinking hats and pull up a barstool, this is going to be a bad one. might as well make a drinking game out of it. so every time someone makes a crock or whine about GW:mad: , pull up a beverage and take a swig. For the other side, every time someone feels slighted by GW:cries: , take a drink.

Hopefully by the time it's all over, you'll be too hopped up on caffeine, sugar, booze, or have to go to the bathroom so bad you wont care how it ended and we all go on happy, if a little hyper, hung-over, or sore afterwords.

Tastyfish
11-06-2007, 08:19
The dark and high elf army books are quite old, and the story that ran over the course of their releases did get a follow up when the new Eltharion came out.

Has Malekith been pushed out of Ulthuan? The Nemesis crown thing just mentions a fresh assault which doesn't necessarily imply that the stalemate has been broken. Tyrion reclaimed one of the Anulii gates that was taken but not all of them - guess we won't really know til september

Mad Doc Grotsnik
11-06-2007, 10:02
Also, so far, the 7th Edition books that have been released are Empire, Dwarfs, Orcs and Gobbos, all of which are intrinsically linked to the Empire.

Orcs like invading it, the Dwarfs (arguably) depend on it for aid, and the Empire is, well, the Empire.

Wait until other races are covered!

Arnizipal
11-06-2007, 20:12
Tiny? Naggaroth is immense, the Druchii outnumber the Asur (they're not really concerned with anyone else) and their industry is one of the most advanced in the entire Warhammer World. They're hardly tiny. The Naggaroth of 2500IC isn't the Naggaroth of -2000IC. :p
Look, I like the Dark Elves better than the High Elves as well, but let's be realistic. There's just no way that a nation that consists of six (arguebly large) cities is going to outnumber the population of a continent sized island.
Elves have few offspring and though I can accept that Dark Elves have children more often, I doubt they'll ever catch up let alone overtake the more numerous High Elves when it comes to population.

I doubt the Dark Elf industry is all that different from High Elf industry. More dependant on slave labour no doubt but also a lot worse for anybody living in the vicinity of it.



The conflict between khainites and slaaneshi was supposed to escalate in the aftermath of the Lustria campaign. This was played out in a campaign run by druchii.net, which Gav acknowledged and mentioned might be in part used to inspire future developments in the Druchii fluff. That's about all we know.
I doubt it will be described as an all-out war though.


The dark and high elf army books are quite old, and the story that ran over the course of their releases did get a follow up when the new Eltharion came out.

Has Malekith been pushed out of Ulthuan? The Nemesis crown thing just mentions a fresh assault which doesn't necessarily imply that the stalemate has been broken. Tyrion reclaimed one of the Anulii gates that was taken but not all of them - guess we won't really know til september
Actually you make an interesting point. Last time round the Dark Elf book was released first and then the later released High Elf book expanded upon the background.

This time it is the other way around (High Elves released before Dark Elves) so we may see some more permanent advances/changes for the Druchii.

TimmyMWD
11-06-2007, 21:51
Something a little more neutral in who's running it. And all I get when I put in Asur.org is a bad search site.

Edit: Ah, Asur.org.uk

Actually, considering its a high elf site, and the dark elf forces won all three campaigns, I'd say you can call it pretty neutral. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronicles_of_the_Dark_Empire)

You won't find an ideal campaign from GW. It has to include most if not all races , and can't have a radical ending to the point where an army or race is significantly altered. If you're looking for that, it has to be player driven and un official.

Crazy Harborc
12-06-2007, 02:10
Well yeah!!:D Empire IS the most important army and SHOULD get the best and be the best too.;)

As the other armies actually get 7th Edition versionized the lack of balance will go away (I hope!)

For myself, since I play all the armies(w/books) but Skaven, Chaos Daemons, Beastmen and Ogre Kingdoms.....I don't have problems with an unbalanced WHFBs.

Kavu
12-06-2007, 07:56
What I'd reallylike to see is more effort put into getting new players (for the company that would be new customers). As I like to say the more the merrier.

DarthSte
12-06-2007, 07:58
The 4th edition was centred around the High Elves. 5th started being a Bretonnian edition - but now it does seem to be quite Empire centric. Perhaps the Nemisis Crown thing will make it a little more Dwarfy?

vinush
12-06-2007, 13:42
The Empire is the main entry point for the player, as they are the most advanced human army, and therefore closer to reality than the other races.

\/ince.

DarkLord Of Naggaroth
12-06-2007, 15:50
just realised, shouldn't this be in the NC GD forum?

Rider-Of-Kurnous
12-06-2007, 16:08
Yeah but the game is FANTASY not REALITY

DarkLord Of Naggaroth
12-06-2007, 16:11
I always thought the name 'empire' was a very strange one. IMO something like 'the forces of men' (a bit crap I know but oh well) would be much better suited. because they're not really a race like the rest of the armies. and it's as though the empire own the world and all the other armies are just rebel forces

Glorfindel
12-06-2007, 17:10
Well I like Albion a lot more, every army had its chance of winning, all converging on the same island to gain the upper hand, new nice models and a whole fluff side to it aswel.

If I was doing this campaign I'd clearly divide the campaign in different stories, lets dwarfs o&g and empire really struggle for the nemesis crown while others like DE, HE and Norca raiders battle over who has control over the seas (not just to protect the backs of the empire but clearly set some objectives, like divide seas in parts, each with an important feature like an island with a fortified port or a breeding spot for sea dragons or whatever other possible keypoints)

Arnizipal
12-06-2007, 23:18
I always thought the name 'empire' was a very strange one. IMO something like 'the forces of men' (a bit crap I know but oh well) would be much better suited. because they're not really a race like the rest of the armies. and it's as though the empire own the world and all the other armies are just rebel forces
It's Sigmar's Empire in full, but most people just call it the Empire.
Remember that humans (like Elves and Dwarfs) are not a united race and so have multiple factions (Bretonnia, Estalia, Tilea, Border Prices,...) so calling the Empire "the forces of men" would be an outright lie.

Richter Kless
13-06-2007, 15:02
People constantly want changes, but not on their own army.
You always hear about how would to see Archaon becoma a spawn because he has failed, or we should have a new grand theogenist.
However, when this actually should happen, it will only get worse. People will whine about how their character was killed, etc, etc.
An example of this is the Eye of Terror campain. In this campain, a special character actually did die. Eldrad attacked the spiritstone of a blackstone fortress, only to find Slaanesh him/herself inside it. Obviously, he didn't survive the encounter.
The amount of whining Eldar players was terrible, why did they kill Eldrad?
But these seem people do keep saying. 'Abaddon should be made a spawn for his failures.'
We are quite hypocritical, we want changes, but none that affect our own fabourites in any bad way.

Chiron
13-06-2007, 15:49
The amount of whining Eldar players was terrible, why did they kill Eldrad?
But these seem people do keep saying. 'Abaddon should be made a spawn for his failures.'
We are quite hypocritical, we want changes, but none that affect our own fabourites in any bad way.

Whats more annoying is the amount of people screaming over his inclusion in the army book afterwards, despite GW having published dead characters for years (Macharius, etc)

The Anarchist
13-06-2007, 16:44
whilst Kless has a good point iv gotta say the Volkmar story was great! it seemed he was dead and gone but came back and set wheels in motion (that are then just left there as a progression of the story seem.....well common sense)

I think Glorfindel has the real point of it, a multi-army campagin that isnt always in the same back yard a aprt from being more fun makes more sense. i mean the ancient Rome was constantly fighting wars in its own backyard and was probably the largest cause of its downfall. so it sees impossible that more and more areas of the Empire are completly ravaged that it just continues with no real ill effect.

Drasanil
13-06-2007, 18:28
An example of this is the Eye of Terror campain. In this campain, a special character actually did die. Eldrad attacked the spiritstone of a blackstone fortress, only to find Slaanesh him/herself inside it. Obviously, he didn't survive the encounter.
The amount of whining Eldar players was terrible, why did they kill Eldrad?
But these seem people do keep saying. 'Abaddon should be made a spawn for his failures.'
We are quite hypocritical, we want changes, but none that affect our own fabourites in any bad way.

IIRC eldar players were unhappy about Eldrad's death because they actualy did well during the campaign and were rewarded for it with the death of one of their most important characters, while the likes of Ahriman got away scott free.

Considering the circumstances (yes, those are important...) it was hardly hypocritical on their behalf. The same could be said of the outcome for the Light Breeze of Chaos Campaign in which the forces of order mopped the floor with chaos, only to have their champion killed off while Archaon's gargantuan failure is seemingly forgiven by the chaos gods, who are hardly known for the leniency or compassion in the first place!

I, personaly, am all for killing off characters. How ever, if done in a campaign it should be in a fashion that reflects the campaign results of those particular factions, not in some seemingly arbitrary manner which leaves the players feeling as if they were cheated. That, Mr. Kless is what you seem unable to understand about the situations you mentioned above.

Richter Kless
13-06-2007, 19:27
I am actually failing to see how defeat should always end with the death of the loser? I can see why Archaon should be spawnified (he emberassed the gods in front of everyone), but I also see why Abaddon should live (he is the only one who can unite the Traitor Legions)
I must admit, I found it very odd Valten had to die. Every Empire player had bought a Valten miniature, only to see it become invalid for battles outside the Storm of Chaos.
I personally think special characters should be kept alive, because they have expensive models you can't just make useless (except in historical battles)
GW was going in the right direction with Medusa V, where they invented new characters whith which they could do whatever they wanted.
But with the Nemesis Crown, they simply felled back into their old habits.
And this time it is also kind of redicilous.
Why would the Emperor lead an expedition in search for a crown, who is going to do all te politics?
Why would the king of the Dwarfs do it, he has a hold to rule over.
And I am also dissapointed that they once again forced Grimgor in the story. Yes he is a cool character, but he is not the only one. I am sure Skarsnik would love to have that 'stuntie 'at'

Drasanil
13-06-2007, 23:36
I am actually failing to see how defeat should always end with the death of the loser?

I agree with you there, victory should not automatically preclude the death of some one, while defeat should not guaratee the death of the loser.

How ever I think part of the ill-feeling towards Eldrad's death was that it appeared as though the eldar players were being punished despite having managed a fairly good showing(while neither Creed, nor any Space Marine Honcho managed to bite the dust despite the fact the imperium was trounced). For their efforts they had one of their central characters taken away from them in a fell-swoop for seemingly no purpous. While Ahriman, their main nemesis, during the campaign had gotten away scott free. The fashion in which it was written had almost as much to as the outcome itself, the narrative made it seem as if the eldar had lost the despite the fact they had actualy done fairly well for themselves.


I can see why Archaon should be spawnified (he emberassed the gods in front of everyone),

Big time. Archaon, unlike Abbadon, had a comparitively easy and straight foward goal for the campaign: break into Middenhiem and throw himself into Ulric's Eternal Fire. That didn't even require the complete destruction of the city or a protracted war of conquest, yet he still failed.


but I also see why Abaddon should live (he is the only one who can unite the Traitor Legions)

That the forces of Chaos trounced the Imperium in the campaign should keep Abbadon from getting spawned for 'failure'. In addition to the fact that unlike breaking into a city, Abbadon -after breaking out of the eye- has to conquer and/or butcher his way through most of the galaxy, besiege Terra, and kill the Emperor... all the while ensuring that Emperor's death does not result in the birth of the Star Child. A far loftier goal than anything Archaon could manage in my opinion.


I must admit, I found it very odd Valten had to die. Every Empire player had bought a Valten miniature, only to see it become invalid for battles outside the Storm of Chaos.

That was a bit of a kick to the balls story wise. Although the Valten miniature could always be used as a normal empire hero as as part of a conversion.


I personally think special characters should be kept alive, because they have expensive models you can't just make useless (except in historical battles)

As for as I'm considered all special characters are fair game and models aren't actualy that important in that regard since they can always be converted or used as standard heroes or in part of a historical battle. How ever when killing of a character the ramifications on the faction should be considered and taken into account: for example killing off the Witch King would have a lot more of an effect on the dark elves, than say killing off Tyrion or Eltharion who don't have much in the way of political power or influence despite the fact they are probably out-selling the former model-wise and atleast one of them is a stupidly good fighter.