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Kerill
11-06-2007, 06:12
Although it seems a lot of the 7th edition changes are quite small they still have quite an impact on the game. As a result I thought I'd make a thread for each 7th edition rule change and how this effects various armies. I'll edit this post as more and more people (hopefully) add things with a list changes and a summary of tactics affected by it.



I'll start off with a simple one:

New rule for mounted great weapon:

In 6th edition the great wepon was the weapon of choice for many mounted lords (esp S5 ones like chaos). Now that it no longer gives +2S (and thus can no longer pop chariots) but still has the strikes last rule the humble halberd (where allowed), lance or a magic weapon are now a much better choice for many units. It has also substantially decreased the power of knights of the white wolf in the empire who are probably now inferior rather than superior to the normal lance wielding empire cavalry (worse save and only +1 S on charge, later rounds +1s but striking last).

MarcoPollo
11-06-2007, 14:51
Absolutely one of the changes that has had the biggest impact on certain armies. Chaos Uber characters with greatweapons on horses are now a thing of the past. So too are questing knights. It has forced people to choose flails with Chaos as they still provide Str 7 (on the charge atleast).

Also, the rule has provided some ambiguity around fighting platforms like Chariots. Do great weapons still give you +2 to characters in a chariot?

Personally, other than the fact that I have to re-model 4 chaos characters, and deal with an entire unit of Questing Knights, I think the change is good overall. I hope that they will allow units with these as standard to have some improvement or cheaper costs though.

Briohmar
11-06-2007, 19:24
The Great Weapon on steed has not affected my play at all. I have noticed an impact on magic. Not having a bunch of low level batteries for your big guy makes a lot of difference to those who play magic heavy, or even medium. I usually have two level 2 casters, and 7 PD (power Familiar) which I used to be able to use to cast three spells a phase, one high casting value (enrapturing spasms with 3 dice) and two medium levels (titilating dilusions, and luxurious torment.) Now, I can still pull that combination off but not all the time. If the familiar owner doesn't have the big spell, the other can get off the big spell, and the familiar owner can try both smaller spells, but not with as much chance of success, because order of spells becomes a lot more critical. I have instead begun experimenting with spell familiar, and other items.

That Guy
12-06-2007, 17:11
I think that the biggest changes are those that affect infantry.

The results of the 5 model frontage are ambiguous: on the one hand it makes cheap static CR blocks less effective because now you can't have those absurd units four wide and seven deep. On the other hand it also means that those elite infantry who weren't getting rank bonuses before are going to have an even harder time of it. Overall, I think that this helped elite infantry but....

The removal of lapping around is a big problem in a lot of ways. Now if elite infantry wins combat, they don't get to lap around and thereby get more models in base contact and get more kills. They just have that same small frontage and have to overcome the same rank bonus every turn of combat. Removing lapping around definately streamlines the game, but it makes an already hurting unit type (elite infantry) even worse.

Kirth
12-06-2007, 17:53
It has forced people to choose flails with Chaos as they still provide Str 7 (on the charge atleast).

I was reading through the BRB the other day and when I was looking at the CC weapon list, flails granted +2 strength in the first round of combat. Charging wasn't necessary.

huitzilopochtli
12-06-2007, 19:01
its the 5 rank and file models for the +1 that kills me. you can still mostly only get 16 models in a box, which suited the old rules perfectly but doesnt really here. and its a pain waiting for them to make larger boxes which will inevitably go up in price. its also greatly affected my cavalry, which are in units of 8 and now dont get a rank bonus at all.

the skirmish double pace is definitely one thing that has changed my tactics. now my skinks can only move 6 inches and shoot. they used to move 12....

Kerill
13-06-2007, 04:46
Sorry flail I meant in the first round of combat. The change that skirmishers can't move double pace has affected a lot of armies, especially for shooting skirmishers. Beastherds are affected a little but since they are attack oriented. Skinks as you say suffer (but thats a good thing considering how effective they are).

Beastmen have suffered from not being able to rank up in widhts of 5 against enemy units with a small frontage meaning they won't get their +2 rank bonus agaisnt units with a very small frontage (such as uber heroes on steeds/monster bases and war machine crew). It seems (although I'm not sure) that ambushing herds will have to appear strung out along the board edge which will reduce their charge range but make them better for autodestroying fleeing enemy units.

Against lizardmen it might even make it worthwhile march blocking the skinks early on so they can't shoot at their favoured targets. Even a hero on a steed with the enchanted shield can slow the wee buggers down a lot and against skinks is lilkely to at least draw combats regardless of how many skinks. (although come to think of it musicians may make the difference here). Still 3S4 and 1S3/4 attack is likely to hold their own if you have an army with cheap and disposable characters. Patheric troops like warhounds that are fast could also be used for a turn until they become furry dartboards.

Its also affected characters on foot- with the new targetting rules almost every character who can be mounted will be mounted now.

Kerill
13-06-2007, 05:00
On the new targetting rules we can also say that apart from being mounted now being the general choice (for the extra save if nothing else, but also in the ability to switch units to prevent being charged by enemies and to fill out the ranks slightly).

This might help the problem for elite infantry mentioned above by reducing the numbers required by 1 (not much but every little bit helps).

Characters are now a lot less likely to be seen wandering around which will affect the mages of most armies a lot.

Its also greatly reduced the safety of clan skyre weapons teams making them much easier to target and requiring a lot more protection by blocking line of sight. Since many people complain about ratlings maybe they will complain a little less now.

The new targetting rules have also made a big difference to big characters like minotaurs and ogre kingdoms. A minotaur can now happily travel with a unit of bestigors or chaos hounds without getting picked out. Perhaps a unit of gnoblars with an ogre character or two might become more common since the ogre will reduce the number of gnoblars that can be attacked by filling out two spaces but will benefit from the large static CR. The reduction in movement will probably still make this unlikely though. Similarly daemon princes and exalted daemons will now be easier to protect from shooting until they attack and faster daemons like khornate hounds/daemonette cavalry might become more of a semi-hammer unit if joined by a character in this way.

Finally characters on monstrous steeds (incl. specials like archaon and Tyrion) are now a lot safer from shooting. Daemon steeds may become more popular especially in marauder units (again by reducing the number in the front rank and filling out 4 spaces for rank bonus). Maybe oldbloods on their T-rex will do the same (although saurus being such good fighters maybe not). BUnicorn mounted characters may also see a renaissance.

That Guy
13-06-2007, 05:37
I must confess that I don't own the 7th edition rulebook. I thought I knew all the changes from friends/the internet, but I'm lost about why characters with monstrous mounts are now safer from shooting. (Tyrion and Archaon needed the help. Both would be better off with just a standard horse. Ironic, no?)

Also, we won't see an Ogre in a gnobler unit because there's a special rule that forbids it! (I think it's hilariously titled "Nobody cares")

Mouchliazo
13-06-2007, 06:11
Actually, it's even more hilariously called "Nobody likes a Gnoblar". :)

Kerill
13-06-2007, 08:20
mistake about the ogres there, glad you guys are there to correct me.

The 7th edition rule making monstrous mounts safer is that "if a character model including his mount has a unit strength of 5 or more then he can be picked out as a target". These monstrous steeds have 3 wounds, plus the rider for US4- so they can't be shot at and get a look out sir roll.

I'm assuming pegasi count as a flying monster so canlt join units (although this seems to be argued). Great eagles are definitely listed as monsters so they canlt join units but disks of tzeentch should be fine since they are not monsters.

BTW that guy if you can think of all the other rules please write them here and some of the effects they have. :)

Sanjuro
13-06-2007, 11:15
now my skinks can only move 6 inches and shoot. they used to move 12....

If they moved 12 and shot, they were actually cheating. :)

Thanatos_elNyx
13-06-2007, 12:04
I miss my Helblaster that actually used to hit stuff.
Now it couldn't hit white in a snow storm.

T10
13-06-2007, 13:06
Odd. My Helblaster is working just fine. Did you follow the instructions thoroughly when you assembled it?

-T10

Kerill
13-06-2007, 14:05
Anotherchange is that characters and their mounts will pass on their stupidity/hatred/frenzy/stubbornness/unbreakableness and immunity to psychology to the whole model (Khornate characters being an exception).

This includes chariots.

This means for example that a dark elf highborn on a big beastie against HE will be able to re-roll the attacks of both highborn and beastie.

For items that can cause frenxy e.g. the black mauk would give frenzy to the whole model so the chariots crew and steeds would all gain an extra attack as well as the character (so +4 attacks in total).

Similarly a carnosaur riding oldblood will become frenzied if the carnosaur becomes blood frenzied (not sure if he keeps the frenzy if the carnosaur dies though- anyone know?)

In addition the rule that if a unit contains a character who causes fear, combined with the rule that a character riding a monter that causes fear also causes it means that a character on a fear causing steed will grant immunity to fear to the whole unit whilst also forcing enemies to charge the unit to take a fear test in most situations.

This means that several items which cause fear will become more useful as will the mark of nurgle.

According to the hordes of chaos errata however a daemonic steed does not pass on its immunity to psychology to the rider- this seems to be very much in opposition to the 7th edition rules but are dated to 9/2006 so I guess this ruling counts.

That Guy
13-06-2007, 18:03
Thanks for the clarification about monstrous mounts.

I couldn't find the list that I originally found that helped me understand 7th, but there's something just as good from the Warseer archives: http://www.warseer.com/forums//archive/index.php/t-40084.html That should just about cover all the changes.

Kerill
14-06-2007, 02:28
Thanks for the link, its a very useful summary of changes.

The new crossfire rules will make fliers even more powerful, (great the bret RAF gets better :( ) and fast cavalry will also get better. It also means that units of fliers may get a little larger in order to take a casualty or two and still be able to autodestroy the enemy.

The fact that fast cavalry can now shoot on a rallying turn also makes mounted light cavalry have another small reason for taking optional ranged weapons (Dark riders, glade riders, reavers, wolf riders mounted marauders and centigors). Since it countd as having moved regardless this makes thrown weapons improve marginally more than bow-style units.

The loss of wrapping around makes stubborn/unbreakable small units such as spawn, maneaters and high elf characters with stubborn rule on steeds/great eagles slightly more lasting in combat against powerful troops and therefore more useful as tarpits. Same goes for treemen and units effected by the now even more useful gut magic spell toothcracker.

The change in regeneration makes regenerated characters and monsters more poweful in combat since models that would have died and lost their attacks before regenerating can now fight as normal. Mainly this makes trolls for chaos/orcs and goblins more useful and regeneration now slightly more useful than before for characters.

Against characters fighting multiple enemies however it may actually give less protection since before if a powerful characer in a unit killed the character the orther models could not attack him (since he counts as dead), now they still can which may make the difference between a character dieing and surviving (albeit not very often).

Another imprivement to regeneration is that you only lose the save against flaming attacks at the time- not for the rest of the battle as used to be the case which again gives an advantage to trolls who might otherwise lose their key ability early in a battle against a fire mage.

Swarms have been nerfed quite seriously meaning that expect to see less of them or bigger units of swarms (to deal with the extra casualties). It has also made spirit hosts even more of a no-brainer vs. bat swarms in the VC army.

Chariots can now willingly charge enemy units in woods or other terrain (take that you dryads), but will also cause impact hits to friends when fleeing (a rule I like a lot and a lot more like scythed chariots used to work in the real world). Gobbo wolf chariots have been improved since the enemy must now attack the chariot at the WS of the wolf rather than the goblin meaning humans orcs and elves will find it harder to hit.