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Mad Doc Grotsnik
11-06-2007, 10:12
Well, sooner or later, the Tomb Kings are going to be getting some re-write loving, so I thought it would be a pleasent discussion finding out what others Tomb Kings players would like to see.

Me? I would honestly like to see cheaper Skellies. Unlike Vampire Counts, we can't simply add to the Regiments we brought along come the first magic phase. We're stuck with it's original size. This means investing more points in very expensive troops, just to make sure we can take a pasting in combat, and still be fighting. Hell, VC can raise a unit thats been obliterated, TK can't! Once it's gone, it stays gone! I'm not asking for a huge reduction, just a point. Another option would be to allow Skelly units the option to take a shield, without sacrifcing their bow. Adds a tactical dimension, does it not?

And please, do something about the power curve between a Priest and High Priest. Yes, it's nice when you can always cast a spell, but a High Liche makes such a difference in terms of power, I've found it hard to justify including a Tomb King! You see, a normal Liche gets one spell on 2D6. A High Liche gets two, cast on 3D6. Thus, two Liches are not a match for a High Liche! And please, make things a bit easier on us. We HAVE to take two characters, and arguably a third is also essential. This eats up our points, and leaves a 1,500 army looking rather predictable (1 Prince 2 Liche!) Bretonnians get an extra character slot, why not us? Seriously.....

Everything else is about sweet though, but the Heavy Horse could do with being a smidge heavier!

Anyone else have a wish list, or am I just being unreasonable?

GranFarfar
11-06-2007, 10:30
No, you are not unreasonable. I tend to agree with most points. Do not play them myself, but a friend of mine does, and I have faced them for years now.

Also I would like to add:
M6 for Usabthis(how do you spell that?) - M6 on a troll size? Which also can't march? Please.

Increase incantation range, all spells by 6 inches. This can be argued. But I feel that the priests are all to vurnurable due to their very short casting range. At least make the missile 24", so you get something out of using it.

Make it possible for the King to be Heirophant. This increase the value in taking a Tomb King.

Make the chariots character ride heavy chariots, still allowed to join the units. As it is now the chariot is to weak for making it attractive to mount a character in it. And considering this is the only mount Tk have, I find it fair.

All I can remember for the moment.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
11-06-2007, 10:41
Fair point. Never thought of making the ranges longer. But is that the drawback to such dependable magic? I mean, unless my opponent dispels it, every spell is going to do it's thing.

And good point about the King being Heirophant. Perhaps additional pointage, counts as a standard Liche, and you cannot then take a High Liche? Got to be swings and roundabouts!

Baindread
11-06-2007, 11:28
So you Tomb kings players want skeletons with 4+ armour save, strike first and auto-KB for 4 points? Yeah, pass the smoke pipe. All Tomb king players are whiners. I hate them.
/end joke

PS: No, I'm not like Shimmergloom or theunwantedbeing. Just wanted to see what it was like being narrowminded, stubborn, naiv and moronic.

Anyhow, about TK. I would give them a marching ability like VC and remove the movement spell. I would really like it better if they just redid the TK magic into normal magic but I guess itīs somewhat the charm of TK so just remove the movement spell and give TK marching instead.

Increase the points cost for Tomb Scorpion.

Remove or redo Heavy Horsemen. As it stands now, they are fairly redundant and filling no particular role.



Otherwise I agree with Granfarfar. BTW, itīs spelled Ushabti ;)

ehlijen
11-06-2007, 13:30
What about adding a bound spell banner that casts the movement spell? That would probably go great lenghts to helping the non marching movement.
In fact a banner for each of the spells would be quite nice (except the missle spell) and would remove the necessity of casting characters somewhat (but also add the need for command groups as a catch).

As for the lords, I think it'd be better the simply let the King cast a second spell each turn. That'd improve him significantly compared to the High priest. (He shouldn't be the hierophant, though. That's a priest's job)

And I disagree on the bow and shield thing. Given the uselessness of spears, it would become the nobrainer best at everything choice.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
11-06-2007, 13:33
But spears are bloody useful for Skellies, as their low I makes less difference...

Chiron
11-06-2007, 14:04
As for the lords, I think it'd be better the simply let the King cast a second spell each turn. That'd improve him significantly compared to the High priest. (He shouldn't be the hierophant, though. That's a priest's job)


He can already cast 2 spells or one spell twice, just on a power level of D6

I think the Hierarchy could do with being scrapped, its nice and fluffy but exprienced players know to wait for the Liche Priest/High Liche to start casting and know exactly when that will be

theunwantedbeing
11-06-2007, 14:43
Baindread quit it with the badmouthing,its not big or clever and its not appropriate,message me or shimmergloom if you have problems rather than doing it on a thread.Thankyou.

Anyway...tomb kings improvements.
Being allowed to take a non tomb king/prince as the general,and/or allowing them to be the heirophant to give a little more flexibility within the character's available to them.
An additional character would be too much as it would give them an extra hero level mage over everyone else(unlike with brets who have to take a fighty hero as their 5th slot).

Ushabti with mv6...always thought that was what they had,mv5 seems a bit unfair for an army that cant march.

A heavy chariot for the tomb king/prince would be useful ,or allow him to join a unit of chariots on a chariot(displacing a crew or 2) during the battle.

Cant really think of anything else that would be worth adding to them....at the moment anyway.

Rabbit_on_Rampage
11-06-2007, 14:54
I would really like to see a rideable monster for TK, its the one major thing they lack.
As for movement and magic I think it is perfect at is it. Thats the beauty about winning with a TK army, it takes finess.
-Lower skeletons to 6 pts per model, make upgrades slightly more expensive.
-Make Heavy Cav Special and give them Tomb Blades and Str 4.
-Make tomb scorpions 95 pts and make them 0-1 selection.
-Lower price of Skulls of the Foe upgrade to 10 pts
- Chariots IMO are already balanced and do not need changing.
-Make Destroyer of Eternities Useable by anyone (in chariot, mounted etc, I can always hope :D)
-Reduce Khalida to 350 pts or allow her to cast Incantations on top of the Auto Cast.

Thats all I can think of atm i'll post more later

AFK in Life
11-06-2007, 15:23
I haven't played too many games with my TK, I just got them, but I will agree the magic curve for taking a high Liche priest is huge. I was using a TK and my empire opponent shutdown every spell that I could cast that mattered. He totally ignored alot of stuff and I didnt have the dice to just force stuff through. And this is not a army built to fight me, its just a standard list he plays.

I find the WS of skeletons a problem because I can never seem to ever hit anything with them, so they lack any sort of punch. My opponent ignored my smiting spells because they just never did anything.

Other then that I have no other comments, I just haven't played enough, but the magic doesn't seem as "relentless" as some people made it out to be.

vcassano
11-06-2007, 15:42
In general the Tomb Kings are probably the best internally balanced army, at least in terms of units. You see almost every option used fairly regularly - Screaming Skull Catapults, Casket of Souls, Giants, Carrion, Tomb Guard etc. I think in regards to unit selection the only real changes needed are a boosting of the horsemen and a points increase of the Tomb Scorpions.

For characters however this is so little variation - usually Tomb King or High Liche Priest to go with the almost requisite 2 liche priests. Noone seems to go for the Icon Bearer. I don't how this can be sorted but I think it should be.

zak
11-06-2007, 16:28
I would like to see the following changes.

1. Skellies - 1 point reduction.
2. A new unit of heavy chariots. Tomb guard as crew. You could even use this unit as a general's bodyguard.
3. Ushabti and Bone Giant to march and not be march blocked.

Manifest
11-06-2007, 17:20
Every army has their one unit that is obscenely cheap for what it does.
Lizards have skinks, gobbos have fanatics, etc.
Let us keep our scorpions, and give us a rideable monster/the ability to march.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
11-06-2007, 17:21
Allowing Ushabti and Bone Giants to march isn't such a great idea in my book. They will then take centre stage a bit too often for my tastes.

I do like the idea of Heavy Chariot units. That'd be cool.

Skellies 6 points would seem nice, but might be a little cheap. Essentially, Laurence and I are going to playtest some of these suggestions and see how they tend to work out.

pcgamer72
11-06-2007, 19:11
I wouldn't mind 6 point skeletons. It would need to be playtested, but it sounds okay at first thought.

Heavy Chariots UNITS seem like a bit much to me. They would have to be pretty darn expensive. I mean 3d6 S5 hits plus 3 S4 and 9 S3 attacks. Ouch.

I honestly think the Scorpions should go up. Yes, other armies have their cheap units, but I guarantee you that Skinks will see a point increase in the next Lizardmen book. I don't agree with the 0-1 selection comment however.

Definitely need to work out something with the Icon Bearer. Maybe allowing him to take other things or making the high point banner selection worthwhile.

Chiron
11-06-2007, 19:32
Scorpions should go up by at least 20 points, but they are competing for a special slot which can be used for some very tempting other units which means in a LHP army I'm not really willing to use a special slot on one

if they were 0-1 I'd very upset, I'd already like to take more Tomb Swarms as it is without getting rid of scorpions

GranFarfar
11-06-2007, 20:23
Solid point about the Icon bearer pcgamer. Don't really now what to make of him. Perheps drop him and leave it to a Prince. Or otherwhise just increase his stats too that of a wight lord.
But really, one problem is that BSB isn't a very solid option for undead. To loose one less skeleton is nothing compared to re-rolling a break test.
As it stands now, the Icon bearer is a very redundant option.

And a Heavy chariot unit is over the top if you ask me. Fine for characters, but not as a unit. The only existing problem with Chariot units is the auto-destroy rule and the high cost command group.
Auto-destroy should, if you ask me, have been dropped to 7:th. Anything with str 7 can against chariot units easy rack up 12 CR in wounds - imagine this in a combined fight with another TK unit.
The command group - 20 point for another str 3 attack? Need I say more?

I liked the suggestion about Heavy cav, str 4 and wight blades. Add Hvy armour and we have a semi-hard hitting unit which is still rather fragile.
But a major problem with Heavy Horse is that they are competing with Chariots. The two have similar duties on the battlefield.

The Anarchist
11-06-2007, 21:18
I don't play as TK but i do play a fair bit aganst a close friends and the one thing that always strikes me is the heavy cavalry. they seem useles to me, they don't fit the role of real heavy cavlry (chariots do that far better anyway) but don't have the rules to be light cavlry. they need to be brought more inline with say the Wild Riders (that i so rutinly crush them with)

just my two cents from the point of fighting aganst the TK

huitzilopochtli
11-06-2007, 21:52
As for movement and magic I think it is perfect at is it. Thats the beauty about winning with a TK army, it takes finess.


absolutely. if only i'd known this sooner, i mightn't have lost as many battles.

i also agree with improving the heavy cavalry, although not necessarily to the extent of making them s4 and giving them tomb blades. we already have enough special units. i think they should be kept mostly as they are, just be given the free reform of fast cavalry (while still counting as heavy cavalry) because the power in a tomb kings army is its movement, and the heavy cavalry just don't work well enough with that IMO. it would also be nice to give the fast cavalry the option to flee from charges, but this is probably asking a bit much, (as well as a leap of the imagination for undead to run away).

i would like the spells to be rearranged a bit. not much, just increase the range a couple of inches (its a pain having a liche priest go to waste sitting on a casket. while out of the way of the fighting, he quickly becomes stranded with no units to cast his spells on) and the power of the summening incantation (raise 2d6 skeletons, not just highest of 2d6).

GranFarfar
11-06-2007, 22:03
But if you make Hvy Horse fast cav, you will have 3 units using this rule. Isn't that a bit much? You won't be needing them all. My guess is that either Hvy Horse would remain redundant, or this would fall on the ligh horse.

huitzilopochtli
11-06-2007, 22:14
yeah, thats true. then y not just give a few upgrades to the light cavalry? like spears, and a bit of armour? even the WE light cav get some armour i think... alhtough i could be mixing up their cavalry units.

huitzilopochtli
11-06-2007, 22:15
yeah, thats true. then y not just give a few upgrades to the light cavalry? like spears, and a bit of armour? even the WE light cav get some armour i think... although i could be mixing up their cavalry units.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
11-06-2007, 22:36
Also, undead Fast Cavalry really aren't that much cop. You can't march, flee or do half the things that make Fast Cavalry so damned cool! Thebest you get is free manouvers!

Cragspyder
11-06-2007, 22:40
Free Reforms is actually pretty mobile, especially for chariot units.

Anyways, yeah, I guess Tomb Scorpions need a price increase, and Icon Bearers need a buff of some sort (at least give him 3 attacks!).

And definetely more incentive to take a Tomb King over a Liche High Priest.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
11-06-2007, 22:44
Thing is, I've always found the Icon Bearer quite good value. I mean, 65 points gets you a reasonable character, with the army standard, which normally sets a player back 25 points on top of the character.

He's not a bad choice, but why can't our characters wear Heavy Armour as standard?

Bloodknight
11-06-2007, 22:49
I hope for a better Icon bearer (well, heīs basically a wight lord - but why canīt he have 3 attacks, too?), a more expensive scorpion (100pt) and a bit cheaper skeletons (6-7 points naked, 8-9 points fully armed).
They are worse than VC skeletons for the same points, mostly because these are overpriced to make up for the raising through magic, but TK raising is less effective and harder to pull off. In my regular games I almost never even get to raise anything because people tend to play a lot of magic defense over here and I need every spell to even get one single spell off normally and that tends to be movement.
Iīd also like a 24" magic missile because with my setup (king, prince, 2 priests, or King, 3 priests) I often cannot build up pressure from the first turn on, because nobody fears bowfire.

oh, and about the heavy cav: these could use either a points reduction, D6 raising or they need more punch. Sometimes I play a block of 15 to add CR in a fast army but this is quite expensive, because the skeletons themselves tend to do squat.

But well, I win a lot with them anyway. The finesse about them is not to rely on magic in your battle plan, but to exploit weaknesses in the enemyīs.

huitzilopochtli
11-06-2007, 23:21
Free Reforms is actually pretty mobile, especially for chariot units.

Anyways, yeah, I guess Tomb Scorpions need a price increase, and Icon Bearers need a buff of some sort (at least give him 3 attacks!).

And definetely more incentive to take a Tomb King over a Liche High Priest.

i agree, but it wud be nice if the light horsemen could do a bit more.

y does everyone keep saying the tomb scorpions need a price increase? i think they're fine for what you get. especially with the chance that they wont even show up from being buried underground.

the tomb king is actually surprisingly effective towards magic ends. because he only rolls one dice for each, your opponent often does the same to dispell, particularily when you roll medium scores of 3 or 4. in which case there's still a gd chance he will fail. or if u roll a high 5 or 6, your opponent has to use up two dice to dispell your one. out of my two tomb king spells one of them usually gets through for me. and then after all this you still have a great lord to play round with. nice!

Skyweir
12-06-2007, 10:16
I agree that the High Priest is to much of an increase compared to an ordenary preist.
I'm acctually trying my hand on a priest-lite army at the moment. I am just never comfortable with a Liche Priest leading my army. A Tomb King is just so much more appropirate.
Still, I'm going to get in trouble with magic, I guess.

As for the Scorpion, I agree that it should go up in points. Also on the wish list is some more options for magic items, Tomb Kings has a pretty small collection.

Shimmergloom
12-06-2007, 10:46
So you Tomb kings players want skeletons with 4+ armour save, strike first and auto-KB for 4 points? Yeah, pass the smoke pipe. All Tomb king players are whiners. I hate them.
/end joke

PS: No, I'm not like Shimmergloom or theunwantedbeing. Just wanted to see what it was like being narrowminded, stubborn, naiv and moronic.



1. HE players want all that for free.

2. stfu.

snurl
12-06-2007, 10:51
How about adding a Sphinx to the list?

huitzilopochtli
12-06-2007, 12:46
thats not a bad idea. would be a nice monster mount for the kings! :D
would it be another undead construct then?

also, sorry for the double post back there! only after realising now!

Gazak Blacktoof
12-06-2007, 12:59
The forum ate my reply :(

So I'll try again.

I think the problem with the icon bearer and the problems with the list below 2000 points are linked to the over reliance on magic which forces the army to include an undue number of magic casting characters.

My general fixes for the tomb kings would be.

Step 1:

General: The general is an important figure in a tomb kings army it is by his will that the army marches this gives him a unique connection with the legions at his command.

In addition to the normal "My Will Be Done!" rules of the general's model type he receives 1 additional spell with the same rules.

Heirophant: The heirophant is a truly powerful liche marked among his brethren to guide the rituals of summoning at the behest of his king.

A heirophant may re-roll the power level of any incantation they cast regardless of source.


Step 2: Increase the base cost of the magic casting characters

Step 3: Reduce the high Liche to 2 spells at 2D6

Step 4: Introduce some "Living" units to the list, they are already there in essence given that the army has access to Dogs of War it would be better still to have some unique models and rules to complement the background that already exists.

Next are fixes I'd like to see for other aspects

Step 5: Put some items in that reward players for taking a chariot for their characters.

Step 6: Increase the cost of the scorpion ( if you're balancing the list there have to be negatives, and its is slightly too cheap)

Step 7: Reduce the cost of Skeletons (1 point as suggested seems about right)

Step 8: Reduce the banner of the hidden dead's cost dramatically. The other item that needs a rethink is the serpent staff for liches, best to scrap it and tack the ability onto the Staff of Ravening.

Step 9: The option of Wight crew for chariots.

I still don't know what to do about either of the cavalry options both are just cheap fodder/ screens for liches as it stands and it would be better if they had another role within the list.

TheWarSmith
12-06-2007, 13:17
So you Tomb kings players want skeletons with 4+ armour save, strike first and auto-KB for 4 points? Yeah, pass the smoke pipe. All Tomb king players are whiners. I hate them.
/end joke

PS: No, I'm not like Shimmergloom or theunwantedbeing. Just wanted to see what it was like being narrowminded, stubborn, naiv and moronic.


Braindead, all you did there was make yourself look bad. Shimmer and Being are good posters, so you've just swung yourself in the opposite direction.

I don't support the shields AND bows. It'd make REDICULOUSLY powered infantry blocks. Since they're never marching anyway, they'd always get to shoot.

Ushabti should be M5, but M6 might be a bit much. The 1" boost isn't that big of a deal, but when you're talking about a 4" increase(when they charge), that's a mighty big boost. I think they COULD have options for armour(they have a 4+ save right now?) or an option for T5(10 points?)

Chiron
12-06-2007, 14:20
Step 2: Increase the base cost of the magic casting characters

Oh god no, we already pay 285 points for a naked High Priest as it is

An upgrade for Ushabti would be great, +15 points for armour or for T5 means I'd use them a lot more

Deceiver_666
12-06-2007, 16:22
Hey to everyone, this is my first post on Warseer. Ive played Tomb Kings for three years now, just thought id put in a few opinions:

1) Ive thought for a long time that TK skellies are too expensive, a 1pt reduction would be nice.

2) An additional hero slot, much like bretonnians, as Tomb Kings also need 2 characters

3) A Sphinx (monstrous mount) for a tomb king would be amazing, and the potential for a fantastic model!

4) A look at some of the magic items. As with most armies, around half of the magic items are unused commonly, especially banners. we could do with some new ones.

I think most of their rules are fine as they are, not marching, spells and spell ranges, separate general and hierophant, they should all stay, otherwise the fluff is pointless, you may as well just make them another VC bloodline!

GranFarfar
12-06-2007, 16:42
Ushabti should be M5, but M6 might be a bit much. The 1" boost isn't that big of a deal, but when you're talking about a 4" increase(when they charge), that's a mighty big boost. I think they COULD have options for armour(they have a 4+ save right now?) or an option for T5(10 points?)

Consider that most other troll-sized got movement 6. I think it is only fair if Ushabti also got it, especially since they can't march. As it stands now, they are nearly useless, due to being so slow.

But an increased AS(which stands at 5+ right now) or thoughness is actually another way to go which I had not considered. Increased toughness would make them usefull even with low movement.

Gazak Blacktoof
13-06-2007, 08:45
I find them pretty useful now, a unit of 4 ushabti almost always finds its way into my list. Whether I'd be better spending the points on scorpions is debateable but I don't normally have the special slots free to take more than 1.

GranFarfar
13-06-2007, 08:47
I find them pretty useful now, a unit of 4 ushabti almost always finds its way into my list. Whether I'd be better spending the points on scorpions is debateable but I don't normally have the special slots free to take more than 1.

Guess we have different experience. Our TK player find them next to useless, and I tend to agree with him. They are both vurnurable and slow, making them to easy to pick out.

Bloodknight
13-06-2007, 09:00
I never got mine into combat, as they are crossbow bait - easy to kill, hard to raise and very slow. I can get more useful stuff for 260 points.

DeathlessDraich
13-06-2007, 10:28
Couldn't read all the posts but I did have a quick look through.
Unlike some of the others I'm not particularly bothered about points etc.

I seek 2 changes

1) An overall strengthening of TK to bring it in line with the strongest armies in Fantasy [I advocate this for all new army books] but not through simple additions like armour, point reduction but more novel and interesting changes e.g.:

This is based on Egyptian military history but is more or less a wish list:

a) An ability of Cavalry to march if they are within 12" of the general.
b) Elephants from Nubia as a Rare option
c) Replacement of the first magic missile incantation with a Warrior Priest type prayer e.g. Soul fire- detrimental to living units for a change or Re-rolls for hits and wounds.
d) An additional incantation carried by a Special unit and not the Liche Priest e.g. called Temple acolytes or similar who have some affinity with magic since they work in the temples.
e) An Obelisk which will be similar to Cauldron of Blood or the Anvil - immoveable, indestructible and either affecting Tomb Guards/Ushabti or having an effect in the shooting phase.
f) Slaves of some kind as a cheap core unit with clubs or cudgels (equivalent to a Choppa?) and/or slings.
g) A different class of archers that use a Composite bow (S4) as a Special unit.
h) Scorpions as a 0-1 Core to free up the Special choices - this could be a 'Brotherhood' modification
i) An additional elite Special unit (Libyan or Nubian mercernaries), either a Skirmisher infantry with Battle axes or Scimitars or
j) Dispense with Carrion and have a flying Cavalry

k) Magic items which emphasise the heat of the desert, the effect of lack of water on enemies, desert storms - khamsin, the superior ability of TK in withstanding these harsh conditions.

My favourite and most hopeful introduction:

An introduction of VC style bloodlines - not called Bloodline but possibly called Temple Sects or Priesthoods or Brotherhoods of the Egytian Mysteries or similar.
These are based on the Great Egyptian Temples -
Temple of Karnak [improves army cohesion, 18" range of general, +1T, +1Ld etc],
Temple of Luxor [improves combat, one Special counts as Core, +1WS and/or S, +1 Crumbling bonus etc]
Temple of Denderah [improves magic - +1 Incantation roll, summon slaves, magic resistance/defence etc], etc.


There's a lot more but I'll stop here.:p

Deceiver_666
13-06-2007, 11:06
imo most of the above ideas will destroy the army fluff. You may aswell put those ideas into a new army, sounds like it will work for a new, non-undead army. The TK list is fine as it is, one of the best GW have imo. A few modifications would be nice, but thers not enough to call for a new army book or list, in gaming they work fine as they are.

Sanjuro
13-06-2007, 11:35
Ushabti should be M5, but M6 might be a bit much. The 1" boost isn't that big of a deal, but when you're talking about a 4" increase(when they charge), that's a mighty big boost.

How do you make that 4 inches? It's a 2 inch boost on the charge. You don't quadruple your movement when you charge, mate. Methinks you've been playing some dodgy games. ;)

Gazak Blacktoof
13-06-2007, 11:53
You do if you can march and then cast a spell to charge/ march again. No marching in the movement phase means its actually 3" maximum.

adreal
13-06-2007, 12:30
I like tomb kings, and I think they are a strong army. I also regulary field a tomb king (although I'll be experimenting with a high priest soon). I also have a fondness for heavy horsemen, but they could do with a better save I suppose. Cheaper skeelies would be nice, but I think if they re-worked the magic and let us bring unit's above thier starting strength (only with skellies) by summoning would be good, I mean I honestly never waste my time casting that incantation, movement, shooting and attacks are more effective because by the time I'm actually loosing models, re raiseing them wont do much

TheWarSmith
13-06-2007, 15:05
Consider that most other troll-sized got movement 6. I think it is only fair if Ushabti also got it, especially since they can't march. As it stands now, they are nearly useless, due to being so slow.

But an increased AS(which stands at 5+ right now) or thoughness is actually another way to go which I had not considered. Increased toughness would make them usefull even with low movement.

Just because other armies have M6 monsters does not mean Ushabti should be. Most other monsters also aren't S6(they aren't even great weapons, are they?). Most other monsters can be broken.

Sanjuro
13-06-2007, 15:12
TheWarSmith: I agree. Ushabtis are fine. They fit the theme of the army perfectly (a tad on the slow side, but relentless) I've only just recently started with Tomb Kings and I use 2 units of Ushabtis in my list. They're great, wouldn't dream of going to war without at least one unit. They can multi-task as damage dealers and tarpits at the same time, due to the construct rule and the fact that they tend to rack up quite a bit of CR with their WS4 S6 attacks. You only need them to hold one turn before you can spam a skeleton regiment into the enemy's flank.

TheWarSmith
13-06-2007, 15:14
Sanjuro, you took my 4" statement out of context. People were talking about increases up to M5 or M6. M6 would be a 4" charge increase, which would be hefty for a unit that's not supposed to be fast.

theunwantedbeing
13-06-2007, 15:54
I dont quite get the 4" movement increase for ushabti by upping from 5 to 6".
1" extra for normal movement(no marching).
2" extra for charging.
They can only move a maximum of twice.
So they'de go from having a 15" max move rate per turn,to having an 18" max move rate per turn.

Thats only 3" of extra movement. Not 4".

You must be getting confused with tomb kings and vampire counts,as they have slightly different undead rules.
The main one being that tomb kings can never march,while Vampire counts can when within range of the general.

Anyway.....
Sphinx
rare choice,Mv7 St5 To6 ,ridable by the general.Impact hits as it charges,undead construct,large target,causes terror,some sort of ward save would be nice as well.
Not a clue on points.....probably around the 250-300 mark.

Liche priests being allowed to cast 2 incantations per turn,and high priests being allowed to cast 3 per turn would be more helpful,and remove the huge gap between the power of a priest and a high priest.
Plus it will lessen the need for all your character's as you wont need to take 2 priests as 1 can do the job of 2.

A magic banner that allowed the unit to march would be brilliant.

Skeleton warriors are pretty good really,as they can move and shoot and already come with bows.
A points reduction could only really be justified by removing the option for the bow initially and making them pay to be given a bow.
ie. 6pts naked skeleton,+2pts for a bow,+1 for a sheild,+1 for a spear,+1 for light armour.

Effectively a 1pt reduction per skeleton but it allows a few more options.
An option for heavy armour on your skeleton heavy horsemen would be useful,a 3+ save cavalry rather than 4+ save cavalry,for say 2pts per heavy horsemen.

The maximum size limits shoudl be increased for heavy horsemen and tomb guard to 20 and 30,to accomodate the new rules for ranks.
Heavy horsemen cant get full rank bonus anymore,upping it to 20 allows them to do so.
Tomb guard cant get 6 ranks anymore,upping it to 30 allows them to do so(dont know why you'de want to do that,but it seems appropriate for some reason)

Giladis
13-06-2007, 16:29
I have now played Tomb Kings for just under five years. In the begining it was horrible but over the years I have learned to use this fragile but powerful army and now I win most of my games.

I personaly think that in order to get a Icon Bearer into the army GW could link marching to him as a side effect TP incantation would have to go down to D3 and King to one D6 per turn.

Considering the cost of VC skeletons we get our basic unit cheaper but later VC rise more to overcome the starting +1 cost over us. So in comparison to the cost of units in recent army books and the slightly reduced strenght of fear I would do this.

Skeleton Warriors come with hand weapon and bow for standard at the cost of 6 points, and than for another 2 points you could upgread them to Light Armour, Shield and Spears.

Over other things I would have to do a much longer thinking and seeing what else needs refining (Cavalry) and how best to do it.

TheWarSmith
13-06-2007, 16:38
You guys aren't getting what I'm saying.

It'd be a 4" increase on charges if you went from M4 TO M6. I'm talking about the difference between the upgrading.

dodicula
13-06-2007, 16:39
No, you are not unreasonable. I tend to agree with most points. Do not play them myself, but a friend of mine does, and I have faced them for years now.

Also I would like to add:
M6 for Usabthis(how do you spell that?) - M6 on a troll size? Which also can't march? Please.

Increase incantation range, all spells by 6 inches. This can be argued. But I feel that the priests are all to vurnurable due to their very short casting range. At least make the missile 24", so you get something out of using it.

Make it possible for the King to be Heirophant. This increase the value in taking a Tomb King.

Make the chariots character ride heavy chariots, still allowed to join the units. As it is now the chariot is to weak for making it attractive to mount a character in it. And considering this is the only mount Tk have, I find it fair.

All I can remember for the moment.

Agree with the skellies, but reliability, cloke of feathers and range is asking too much IMHO. Thats what the shooty spells are for to take out anything that gets too close. Ushabtis getting better movement- No they are undead, why would they get better. Also lets tone down that bone giant

Bloodknight
13-06-2007, 16:53
Whatīs there to tone down about the bone giant? Itīs quite costly for what it does if it doesnīt fight goblins.

TheWarSmith
13-06-2007, 17:21
Don't hold out for a Sphinx.

All armies(i believe except BoC and OK) get 1 "big lord upgrade"

screaming bell, dragon(HE, DE, WE, VC), hippogryph, war altar, anvil of doom, carnasaur, wyvern, and casket of souls.

The TK already have the casket, so i wouldn't expect a big ridden monster.

Lord Zarkov
13-06-2007, 18:28
You guys aren't getting what I'm saying.

It'd be a 4" increase on charges if you went from M4 TO M6. I'm talking about the difference between the upgrading.

Except they are already M5

the1stpip
13-06-2007, 19:05
Nerf the Tomb Scorpions.

I don't want to see a points increase on them. They shouldn't be able to move on the turn they emerge, and if they appear within 1" of an unit, then they should be automatically locked in combat with them.

And they shouldn't have killing blow AND poisoned attacks. One or the other.

TheWarSmith
13-06-2007, 19:09
Except they are already M5

Oh really? see, that's what i didn't know. i thought they were M4.

Mad Makz
13-06-2007, 23:00
Only thing that needs any major work is the Icon Bearer and Heavy Cav- If you added an automatic bound spell of movement (not smiting) to the Icon Bearer, power level D3, or even a flat 2, then even with his sub par stats at the moment he'd be worth taking - you could even shuffle his stats/points a little. At the moment he's just not worth missing out on another cast spell.

Heavy Cav could probably just be incorporated into light cav - spears and bows and an armour upgrade option would make them viable if they had the right price point.

Alternatively, allow Tomb Princes (Not Kings) to ride Skeletal Steeds, would add the punch to Heavy Cav that they currently lack.

The Bone Giant could possibly use a points change - it's role is a difficult one to quantify and it's points are a bit high for it's effectiveness.

Other than that I don't see a major drop in points anywhere as necessary. Maybe make Skellies with Swords and Shields 7 points and make the upgrade to the Bow a 1 point upgrade, so you can get bigger blocks of static infantry but don't decrease the cost of the bowmen (I think they are fairly well costed at the moment).

Mad Doc Grotsnik
13-06-2007, 23:05
Bone Giant is pretty tasty in my book. I mean, it's harder to kill than a Dragon (because you can keep healing it, and it will never, ever, run away!) and with it's unstoppable assault rule, quite capable of making a horrific mess. Personally, I've always enjoyed sending mine on a Beeline for the enemy Heavy Infantry/Heavy Cavalry, where it can have a whale of time slapping them around, whilst they struggle to wound it in return.

Bloodknight
14-06-2007, 00:02
And they shouldn't have killing blow AND poisoned attacks. One or the other.

I hope you noticed that the inclusion of poison actually weakens the scorpion against his favourite targets - characters and cavalry because it steals the opportunity of rolling a killing blow?

Baindread
14-06-2007, 00:13
imo most of the above ideas will destroy the army fluff. You may aswell put those ideas into a new army, sounds like it will work for a new, non-undead army. The TK list is fine as it is, one of the best GW have imo. A few modifications would be nice, but thers not enough to call for a new army book or list, in gaming they work fine as they are.

Well, the beauty part is that GW can always change the fluff to match the rules. Nifty huh? ;)

No, seriously, TK probably needs quite some changes to either add some choices, remake the ones they have or revise the whole shebang.

pcgamer72
14-06-2007, 00:56
I think the Bone Giant can be fixed simply by lowering his points cost. He doesn't really need a stat change, imo.

That Guy
14-06-2007, 05:08
I think the Bone Giant can simply be fixed by a new model. The drawing is good, but the model...it looks...ummm....mentally challenged.

Also, in my book, two screaming skulls are mandatory, which means there's no room for a Giant anyways. But maybe that's just me.

snurl
14-06-2007, 05:13
It would be nice if the skeleton's leadership was a point or two higher.

Sanjuro
14-06-2007, 11:55
*EDIT*

Sorry, posted something that had already been pointed out. Mods, feel free to delete this post.

sulla
14-06-2007, 20:17
I don't know why a king/prince has no rider on his chariot? Seems silly for royaly to have to drive their own chariot. Also, I would add the option of missile weapons including magic bows, to kings and princes. It was a very noble pursuit to hunt from chariots in egypt so why not add this to khemri too. Also, the TK/prince's chariot needs to be better/harder than it is. About the same stats as a HE chariot would be about right to me.

I would depower 'it came from below' or scorpions. They are virtually a garaunteed artillery piece kill per turn which is a bit unfair in a gunline like TK are. Other than that, I think the main thing would be to make skeleton infantry cheaper so that they become more tempting than all the special and rare bits and bobs.