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View Full Version : Why do you like, or dislike the DA codex



exsulis
12-06-2007, 05:57
I know theres been like 50,000 threads on the subject of if its a good/underpowered/overpowered codex. I'm just curious on the demographic of each group.

Xyon
12-06-2007, 06:05
I voted for both liking and disliking it. I like it because the background is great, the layout was awsome, no more wargear section is a little dissapointing but I can live with that, I only dislike that the "other" marine population around here use the main SM codex, and often get "more" for their points, but thats no big deal, I can wait for the SM codex to get toned down and then all will be well again.

Renagade
12-06-2007, 06:52
Lets face it . It was a rehash of material/fluff already in circulation with alot of filler to boot. The list is more restrictive. I intend to produce a playable force but I'm disappointed. I feel like I was robbed.
In truth it's not the list which upsets me the most, its the massive amount of filler pact in to bulk it out. If I were GW, I would be upset with the performance of the creative team involved.
I'm also worried that this is the new trend for GW, no effort in creative writting, all out on price. It's just very cynical marketing which poisons my love of the hobby.

AngryAngel
12-06-2007, 06:57
I voted dislike though there are some aspects of it I like. I dislike how it just seems like a first version of the regular space marine codex, and dark angels have almost nothing. Deathwing or ravenwing aside, over other chapters.

Really if the only diffrence is that, they really don't deserve their own book at all. All it really is..is more restrictive for the bonus of being able to use more expensive bike and term units as troops which is a questionable bonus if any.

Dicey
12-06-2007, 08:19
Sorry I didnt vote as really my option wasnt up there. Yes some of new the fluff was good, though some of it destroyed. I originaly got into DA upon readign my deathwing/ space hulk book and the story of the termies taking on the genestealers. Now it is just a story not a real event. Though not a big thing it did make me cry. rewriting ravenwings role was good thouhg

Rules wise I feel I am been dictated to. Combat squads I like, the rest not so. DA are now more codex than smurfs. Yes I can take termies as troops, but this is a deathwing army, not DA. same for ravenwing options. I liked the stoic nature of my marines, intractible was ace. The da were a slug it out army now there are just like any other SM army with a couple of special characters that do a bit here a bit there. I particualy hate the removal of Asmodi, The chaplins are the mainstay of a DA army, in fluff terms. I dislike that GW has decided that to stop "cheese/beard" (not that DA were a cheese army) armies that they will make lists more restrictive. in the UK a club WPS, have rules in their tourneys to promote balanced lists. I think this is the way to go.

Stormsender
12-06-2007, 08:21
This codex has by it self caused my whole gaming shop to play War Machine. Codex DA killed 40k in my shop all 3 DA players there quit playing altogether after every list they made was destroyed. Everyone else at the shop just thinks GW can't be consistent so they want to play a game that is consistent. My answer was "can't make a effective list" because all the DA players I know are completely ineffective on the table. Not trying to stir things up thats just what has happened at my shop, 40k died.

HalfEvil333
12-06-2007, 08:48
I voted liked it. I liked it enough that it convinced me to start marines. It took DA from "Marines with lots of plasma" and turned it into feeling more like a strike force than a gunline. I think its a step in the right direction and would like to see C:SM follow this trend. My only real complaint was the lack of a 2 wound captain option, but i'd live without that.

Baneboss
12-06-2007, 08:51
I hate the new heroic fluff but i like the rules.

IAMNOTHERE
12-06-2007, 09:07
If all 3 DA players can't make a list at your shop then either everybody else is very good or they are very bad.

ALL THREE?

I've yet to come accross a DA player but the stuff in the codex looked quite neat.

Can any of these guys make an effective marine list? Because the options are still there in the codex to play in a pretty straight forward codex way.

Are they trying to make pure deathwing or raven wing lists? These will take time and patience to master.

Surgency
12-06-2007, 09:16
If all 3 DA players can't make a list at your shop then either everybody else is very good or they are very bad.

ALL THREE?

I nearly choked at that... I've never seen more than one DA player at any given shop, though I've seen multiple SW and BA players... :rolleyes:


Can any of these guys make an effective marine list? Because the options are still there in the codex to play in a pretty straight forward codex way.

my bet is that they don't know how to play anything but las/plas armies, and math-hammer, because I'd say the DA list is just as good, and just as flexible, maybe even a little more so, than any other SM list out there. Especialy since DA can nearly double their scoring units.


Are they trying to make pure deathwing or raven wing lists? These will take time and patience to master.

This was the second thing I thought, but I'm willing to wager that the players in question don't have the ability to learn how to play an effective DW or RW army...

Stormsender
12-06-2007, 09:30
If all 3 DA players can't make a list at your shop then either everybody else is very good or they are very bad.

ALL THREE?

I've yet to come accross a DA player but the stuff in the codex looked quite neat.

Can any of these guys make an effective marine list? Because the options are still there in the codex to play in a pretty straight forward codex way.

Are they trying to make pure deathwing or raven wing lists? These will take time and patience to master.

If all 3 DA players can't make a list at your shop then either everybody else is very good or they are very bad.
Well I supposed you won't be happy that you missed an option, the 3 players are good and the other players at the shop are good also some very good.

Problem is a result of points costs are inflated for the DA players, and also the lack of flexibility in war gear choices and units and HQ selection.

They tried several lists all of them had poor results even though they appeared viable they were much less resilient.

The result has the majority of players I game with are tired of the watering down of rules GW has been doing for years, everyone wants to play a game with a more stable release schedule and rules system.

Str10_hurts
12-06-2007, 09:36
I'd say its an realy effective list.
3 reasons for it:
1. tanks are cheap, 35 points for 3.5" of cover were ever you want, and predetor destructors have dropped cost imensly.
2. Ravenwing with scout move and all have standard teleport homers. In omega missions these are the units that rule the board.
3. A standard marine is an real all comer, with pistol and grenades these can do lots more.

Yes, oh no combat squads, and my assault cannons got expensive.
Well first if you deviated so far from the codex astartes that you think combat squads are crap, go play spacewolves. (no offense intended to loyal spacewolf players)
And on the assault cannons, what did you realy think... they wouldent change it?

I realy like the lay out and feeling, the only thing that might bother me from time to time is the slight lack of options for your HQ.

Surgency
12-06-2007, 09:41
Problem is a result of points costs are inflated for the DA players, and also the lack of flexibility in war gear choices and units and HQ selection.

They tried several lists all of them had poor results even though they appeared viable they were much less resilient.


More likely, the points costs for the MOST POWERFUL things (assault cannons, et al) were increased, as well as the more powerful options for hero characters. The marines automatically come with most of the wargear they need, how much more flexibility is needed? I do agree that the HQ options have become less flexible, but they're also very fluffy, IMO. No more giving the sword of secrets to an average company commander, and thats a good thing! The new DA list, if properly built, are more tactically flexible than a standard SM list, but people want to cry and complain because they can't pull the 6 man las/plas kind of things that the SM list allows.

If they can't make an effective army list with the DA, then they're just not good at making balanced army lists, as nothing in the DA list allows for incredibly OP stuff...

Stormsender
12-06-2007, 09:43
I nearly choked at that... I've never seen more than one DA player at any given shop, though I've seen multiple SW and BA players... :rolleyes:



my bet is that they don't know how to play anything but las/plas armies, and math-hammer, because I'd say the DA list is just as good, and just as flexible, maybe even a little more so, than any other SM list out there. Especialy since DA can nearly double their scoring units.



This was the second thing I thought, but I'm willing to wager that the players in question don't have the ability to learn how to play an effective DW or RW army...

Sounds like you have everything figured out.Except you should probably play the army so you can make an informed descission, at least I speak as informed observer of many battles these guys have played. These guys are good players, none of them played Laz/Plaz as if that was a horrible thing. I am sure they have the ability to learn how to play an effective DW or RW army... Sounds like your the one who lacks the ability to keep and open mind, thats just my impression.

Stormsender
12-06-2007, 09:47
More likely, the points costs for the MOST POWERFUL things (assault cannons, et al) were increased, as well as the more powerful options for hero characters. The marines automatically come with most of the wargear they need, how much more flexibility is needed? I do agree that the HQ options have become less flexible, but they're also very fluffy, IMO. No more giving the sword of secrets to an average company commander, and thats a good thing! The new DA list, if properly built, are more tactically flexible than a standard SM list, but people want to cry and complain because they can't pull the 6 man las/plas kind of things that the SM list allows.

If they can't make an effective army list with the DA, then they're just not good at making balanced army lists, as nothing in the DA list allows for incredibly OP stuff...

If you haven't played them and you like them so much why don't you play them.

Griffin
12-06-2007, 10:02
I know I'm switching to Dark Angels in the near future (after eldar,chaos, nids painted) just so I can play the codex with the new rules and "limitations". They are so flexible it's amazing !

Surgency
12-06-2007, 10:32
Sounds like you have everything figured out.

sounds like I do... :wtf:



Except you should probably play the army so you can make an informed descission, at least I speak as informed observer of many battles these guys have played.

I do play dark angels, they're my WIP army, and so far I have nothing but good things to say about them... :rolleyes:



These guys are good players, none of them played Laz/Plaz as if that was a horrible thing. I am sure they have the ability to learn how to play an effective DW or RW army...

I never said they were bad players, I just implied that they might not be good at list building. There's a big difference.



Sounds like your the one who lacks the ability to keep and open mind, thats just my impression.

So the fact that I'm a staunch supporter of the new DA codex when everyone else seems to complain about it, I believe in the tactical flexibility of doubling your scoring units without increasing points costs when other people believe they loose flexibility, and my successfully managing to not take more than dread and pred mounted lascannons and still win means I don't have an open mind?(among many other points that I believe DA get better than their blue counterparts) :eyebrows: How does that work...



If you haven't played them and you like them so much why don't you play them.

I do play them, though I don't play a RW army. My new dark angels list looks surprisingly like my (very effective) space marines list, yet has more scoring units.

Can I assume from your attacks of my posts, that were pretty neutral, and not hostile in any way, that you were one of the above-mentioned three people? After all, I didn't really say anything negative, and you more or less responded with "ya, well ur stoopid" Not in so many words, of course, but that seems to be the intent... :eyebrows:

Varath- Lord Impaler
12-06-2007, 10:38
I love the rules so much. Its very nice list with choices that make sense fluffwise once you think about it while still retaining balance (scouts in Elites, case in point)



They tried several lists all of them had poor results even though they appeared viable they were much less resilient.

This caught my eye. Mostly because ive always wondered by people think its the list that wins the game.

They take their NEW codex they have never used before, which rejigged the way DA played.

Created first list (probably close to mirroring their original lists) And it failed to work because the differences inherant in the codex made their choices better in different situations.

Created second list, using the shiny toys in the codex, trying to break from the mould. Because its a new list they dont know how everything works yet, they lose against, as you say, good to very good players at your club.

Warhammer isnt about putting your army lists on the table and working out victory from their.

heres the frequent things i hear.

DA HAVE to take Veteran sergeants!!! Waaaaah

1. Most of people like taking Chappies and Librarians, this means you are less reliant on the master for Ld
2. If the master is killed, your squads are still autonomous.
3. If (or when) your squads charge/ get charged. You have punch to defeat the enemy

On that note.

Bolt pistols, Grenades?! What are these things?

1. You HAVE to take Veteran sergeants, you have bolt pistols on your regular marines...spelling it out doesnt even cover it. TACTICAL marine doesnt mean Shoot till dead. You need to use combat to your advantage.
2. Less reliance on Anti Tank weaponry, you only need to kill the very heavy stuff, your tac marines hav ethe chance of killing that rampaging dreadnaught in combat, not a thing many squads can boast about.

Scouts as Elites? What is this nonesense?

1. There are 100 Terminators in a chapter, there are also around 100 scouts, 100 veterans. They seem to be in the elites section.

1. Also, it stops a DA player from taking 2 5 man scout squads and then taking toys. Scouts are a fluffy addition, dont send the redshirts into every fray, your chapter will die quickly if you do that.

Marines get everything cheaper than we do! Waaaah!

How many points is your Predator Destructor?

How many Iron halos can you take?

Who else can take SCOUTING bikes/attack bikes/landspeeders and 1st Turn Deep Striking terminators as Troop choices?

Your whirlwind ignores cover with the right equipment. Ever faced Cameleoline guard? in cityfight? with fortifications?

Its not pretty. Now you have the solution, Also because of your pretty frag grenades you can assault them without that sergeant holding a power pin killing a marine or 2 before they feed him his own legs.

*sigh*

I can go on, please please please...dont complain that marines get it better than you.

OH one more :) Name me a marine special character who can fly on a jetbike while holding a plasma cannon! :)

Thommy H
12-06-2007, 12:12
I clicked the top four boxes. I'm a Dark Angels player and I love the coherence of the background (particularly the way that the Deathwing story was linked with the Dark Angels story in general, since it always stuck out like a sore thumb), I love the multiples-of-five squads and the combat squads rule since it reflects the Marine's reliance on inflexible organisation but flexible tactics when they actually hit the battlefield, I love how quickly I could figure out my army's total cost using the new list and the modular system of unit and character selection that means I can include loads of Deathwing in a normal army if I want. All in all, it's the best Codex in a long time.

W0lf
12-06-2007, 12:22
I love the cdex fior the fluff and the DAs themseleves.

what also rocks is winning vs people who say DAs suck when i start getting models out.

Thommy H
12-06-2007, 12:36
What I'm noticing from almost every Dark Angels player so far is a consensus that, while list flexibility has been reduced (though not as much as some people claim) the increased tactical flexibility is more than making up for it. Most of the nay-sayers appear to have taken one glance at the rules and dismissed it as nerfed since they can't remake their current, competetive list using it whereas everyone else has started from scratch and are finding the army as powerful as ever if used correctly.

etham
12-06-2007, 15:02
Quite spot on, Tommy H.

There have been several polls on the DA codex over the last few months and the negative votes are consistently a tiny minority. Overall, people that play DA are overwhelmingly happy with it.

And since it's not meant for other space marine chapters, I don't really care about the negative opinions of those that don't play DA when it comes to the DA Codex.

Brother Alecium
12-06-2007, 15:39
I voted for both liking and disliking it. I like it because the background is great, the layout was awsome, no more wargear section is a little dissapointing but I can live with that, I only dislike that the "other" marine population around here use the main SM codex, and often get "more" for their points, but thats no big deal, I can wait for the SM codex to get toned down and then all will be well again.

How do regular Space Marines get more for their points, when the DAs get Bolt Pistols, Bolters, Frag and Krak Grenades for the same price as a normal Marine that only gets a Bolter?

Stella Cadente
12-06-2007, 15:51
You like it because of the fluff
You like it for the old second edition rules
You feel the rules reflact the fluff
Its easier to build a list
Because it nerfs marines!


What I'm noticing from almost every Dark Angels player so far is a consensus that, while list flexibility has been reduced (though not as much as some people claim) the increased tactical flexibility is more than making up for it. Most of the nay-sayers appear to have taken one glance at the rules and dismissed it as nerfed since they can't remake their current, competetive list using it whereas everyone else has started from scratch and are finding the army as powerful as ever if used correctly.

SPOT ON.

Ronin_eX
12-06-2007, 16:18
I'm a long time DA player and I've been meeting with a huge amount of success. I picked the first four options. The list is certainly different which is what seems to be throwing many for a loop. All I can say is that maybe DA just isn't their style anymore. For me the style meshes perfectly with my own which makes all the difference. It's a very flexible codex but many people are held up on the fact that they lose some options on the characters, which has always seemed like a rather weak excuse when everyone criticized 2nd edition for being hero hammer while tooling up their characters in 3rd/4th to be even more powerful than they were during 2nd (the only thing that wasn't more powerful were the overnerfed psykers). The codex's strength is in the troop choices not in the characters, hopefully all codecies will be written with a focus on the troops in the future.

IAMNOTHERE
12-06-2007, 16:24
Hear, hear

I know this would be a boring list but off the top of my head its effective and mimics the marine codex:

3 pred destructors
6 tactical squads(10 man) with las cannon and plasma gun.

1300 pts ish.

You use combat squads to get 15 scoring units, have a huge base of fire going down and still have points for a hero.

It might be boring but it would be effective.

Darkangeldentist
12-06-2007, 16:54
I like some of the fluff but not other bits, still don't like the layout and because it nerfs marines!

I miss Asmodai as well.

My biggest bugbear with the codex is the bittersweet aftertaste it's left me.

People have mentioned the advantages and some have complained over the restrictions. This is old ground well trodden so I'll leave it alone. My problem is that whilst we have been surprisingly treated with stuff given and taken in about equal measure the future is the same for other all other space marines. Blood angels have received an update giving clear indication what's planned to marines in the future. Almost as soon as Dark angels came out rumours started about a redux for basic marines. With the Blood angel white dwarf list we have an idea what GW have in mind.

A lot of the nice things about the Dark angels are the changes to the basic marines. Before we had rules that made them unique from other chapters. Now we've lost intractable and the difference due to the extra equipment and combat squads is planned for all marines. So we lose that little bit of individuality. On paper very few of the DA specific characteristics look much. Almost none of them give any reliable advantage in taking out your opponents directly. They do provide an edge but they aren't always easy to take advantage of.

So it's hard to see why there's so much to get excited about for the army. For the game it's great marines work better overall and everything is more balanced. But at a selfish army level it's all to easy to feel sorry for yourself and just a bit short changed.

It's a better book than the 3rd edition one and for that people should be grateful.

Grand Master Raziel
12-06-2007, 17:13
heres the frequent things i hear.

DA HAVE to take Veteran sergeants!!!

Well, some folks might regard that Vet sergeant as a waste of points, depending on what squad he's leading. A Devestator Squad, for instance, might not see much close combat action.




Scouts as Elites? What is this nonesense?

1. There are 100 Terminators in a chapter, there are also around 100 scouts, 100 veterans. They seem to be in the elites section.

1. Also, it stops a DA player from taking 2 5 man scout squads and then taking toys. Scouts are a fluffy addition, dont send the redshirts into every fray, your chapter will die quickly if you do that.

Scouts as Elites is nonsense. Scouts are the chapter's trainees, not the creme of the crop. As such, it's entirely inappropriate for them to be an Elite choice. Also, I imagine your numbers are off. While Chapters might have set numbers as to how many of any other type of trooper they have, you'd expect them to have the flexibility to have as many Scouts as they can lay hold of, since the attrition rate from aspirant to Space Marine is so ferocious. Those that make it to the Scout Company are no doubt most of the way there, but not all Scouts are going to become full Battle Brothers.

Also, as a point of clarification, SM chapters do not have 100 Terminators and 100 Veterans. They have 100 Veterans who have the privelege of wearing Terminator Armor into battle, if the chapter happens to have access to them.

Plus, as far as your point about DA players taking two 5-man Scout Squads and then taking toys, I've never actually seen anyone do that. I'd think DA players would be unlikely to do that, as the sexy units they're likely to want to blow points on are Deathwing and Ravenwing. More accurately, since they can take them as Troops choices if they have the appropriate special characters, they'd have no need to take minimal Scout squads for fiddly min-maxing. Besides, the amount of points they'd save by taking two 5-man Scout Squads as opposed to two 5-man Tac squads is inconsequential. I don't remember if DA Scouts pay for a Vet Sergeant or not, but if they do, they'd be saving only 20 points.




Marines get everything cheaper than we do!
How many Iron halos can you take?

How many Iron Halos would I usually need to take? It doesn't make much sense to have two of the same kind of HQ choice in your army, as they make each other redundant. So, most SM players were probably not feeling the lack of an ability to take two or more Halos. However, DA players might be feeling the lack of the ability to take a Halo on their Librarians. Personally, I prefer taking Storm Shields to Iron Halos. I try very hard not to leave my ICs out where they can be singled out by enemy fire, so I rarely find them getting hit by a gun they can't take a save against. In close combat, the Storm Shield is just as good as the Iron Halo, but costs 15 points less. However, the Storm Shield didn't make it into the list of equipment that DA ICs can take, along with a lot of other gear that didn't make the transition from the Armory to JJ's new setup.




Who else can take SCOUTING bikes/attack bikes/landspeeders and 1st Turn Deep Striking terminators as Troop choices?

Well, the points cost on bikes is prohibitive. With DA bikes, even more so. DSing Termies on the first turn could be as much a liability as an asset, especially since Terminator squads took a hard hit from the JJ nerf bat.




Your whirlwind ignores cover with the right equipment. Ever faced Cameleoline guard? in cityfight? with fortifications?
Its not pretty. Now you have the solution

Already had one. I call them flamers. I like to take them in Assault Squads. Too bad DAs can't take flamers in their Assault Squads anymore. I also particuarly like heavy flamers. Those'll do IG real well, regardless of what equipment they have or what cover they take. All the units that can carry heavy flamers took hard hits from the JJ nerf bat too, because JJ wanted to tone down AC spam, but wouldn't take the logical step of actually toning down the AC.



OH one more :) Name me a marine special character who can fly on a jetbike while holding a plasma cannon! :)

Who isn't an Independent Character, which means he can be singled out for shooting, and he costs almost as much as a Land Raider all by his own damn self.



Quite spot on, Tommy H.
There have been several polls on the DA codex over the last few months and the negative votes are consistently a tiny minority. Overall, people that play DA are overwhelmingly happy with it.


Check out some other boards. You might come away with a different view.


How do regular Space Marines get more for their points, when the DAs get Bolt Pistols, Bolters, Frag and Krak Grenades for the same price as a normal Marine that only gets a Bolter?

While all that gear is lovely, it is more than counterbalanced by inflexible squad sizes, more expensive upgrades, and reduced options.


As for me, I voted one like and three dislikes.

Like:
You feel the rules reflact the fluff

I suppose the 5/10 squad size format and the Combat Squads rule are a more accurate portrayal of the combat doctrine of a SM chapter, and I suppose that's a good thing. However, my enthusiasm for that is, at best, lukewarm. It seems pretty clear that JJ's intent was to end the day of the 6-man lasplas squad, and this book sure does that. I wouldn't have gone so far as he did, but that's water under the bridge now. What really disappoints me is the Combat Squads rule. When I first heard the rumor of it, I was envisioning 10-man squads being able to split up during game play. Having to do it at deployment - meh. If I wanted an army like that, I'd have built one around 5-man squads, with upgrades distributed as appropriate.

Dislikes:
Because it nerfs marines!
You hate the new fluff/layout
GW removed all the neat stuff

These were the closest three to my feelings on the matter. For starters, I hate the WHFB layout. I don't like having to flip to several different places to find out what one unit does.

What I also don't like about the DA dex is that it's more restrictive, has less options, and it indiscriminately nerfs the army. JJ wanted to tone down certain builds - particularly lasplas and AC spam, and maybe those things needed toning down. The problem arises with the method he opted for in going about it. Terminators, Dreadnoughts, and Speeder Squadrons all felt the sting of JJ's nerf bat. If those units could only be used as platforms for ACs, then I'd be fine with that. However, there are a lot of other options that people could take in those units, but players who did so instead of AC-spamming get punished right along with AC-spammers. For instance, JJ upped the cost of the Dreadnought without correspondingly lowering the cost of the non-AC weapon options, making a Dread armed with anything but an AC prohibitively expensive.

As far as lasplas goes, maybe if SM players had another special weapon option with some reach, you might not see so much plasma on the table. As far as lascannons go, you might have seen them in Tac Squads less and in Dev squads more if the Dev squad cost for a lascannon wasn't more than twice the cost of the SM carrying it. A 10-man Dev squad with 4 lascannons costs just 60 points less than four 5-man Tac Squads with single lascannons. I'm willing to make concessions to fluff, but I'm not willing to bone myself to do so.

Corporal Chaos
12-06-2007, 17:36
Mixed emotions here. I like it for the ease of creating a list and I dislike the fact that ALOT of the options for Vet Sgts and Commanders are lost. Needing to take a "Named" character to get special unit schoices is also a drawback IMO. Overall though for a SPECIALIZED army book it is very good. Meaning Chapter specific.

==Me==
12-06-2007, 20:15
I absolutely love the new Codex. I started off enthusiastic from all the rumors, got a little put off by all the negative sentiment, but after testing it out for a while, I can safely say this is the best setup DA have had in a while (better than both printings of the 3rd edition "Codex" with the 3rd and 4th marine Codeces). List-making flexibility has been restricted yes, but the tactical flexibility offered by combat squads and the internal balance more than make up for it.

As this and just about every other poll has shown, the majority of DA players are content with the new Codex. Only a minority dislike it, though they are the most vocal. So ==My== reccomendation to those Warseers who haven't tried it out yet is to ignore the naysaying and fanboyism, give it a shot and make your own decision. Don't treat them as Green marines, rather as a unique army, and you'll get a much better feel for them.

Cheers

infinity101
12-06-2007, 20:53
Hear, hear

I know this would be a boring list but off the top of my head its effective and mimics the marine codex:

3 pred destructors
6 tactical squads(10 man) with las cannon and plasma gun.

1300 pts ish.

You use combat squads to get 15 scoring units, have a huge base of fire going down and still have points for a hero.

It might be boring but it would be effective.

this post really gave me a thought...

you see.... after the SM redo.....if ever.... this will be possible to do with any SM army
this list contains nothing DA specific.... yet you think that this is an effective DA list? seems wrong ....to me at least

as someone said.....there is less DA specific stuff
and this suggestion of a list is just green SMs

and you are right...it does seem boring...i might just try it out vs 9 obliterators, and 2 CC heavy hitters.....at least ill kill my opponent with boredom at the next tournie :)

Deathwing_Adam
12-06-2007, 21:05
Honestly I thought the DA codex gave a lot more flexability in some ways, Combat squads for so many of those units is great. Also it did fit the fluff quite well (though I'm not sold on ravewing having Fearless yet, I rather think the old non fearless/stubborn fit the fluff a bit, though they did change the fluff on them a bit to compromise) and I think it's a list that games can be won with.

I also think that though the armory is gone most of the options that are commonly used are already there. Granted it would be nice if the psuedo special characters had the option to take terminator honors (or had it already), and some more flexability in the special characters other than Belial. Still despite all complaints I think its an incredibly flexable list overall with a large amount of room for variation

Honestly I am a lousy lousy player who has had 1 win (and no draws) in the last year or more, but my first game out with the DA's codex I came very very close to a solid victory, and had another round been rolled up it's not unlikely it would have been a slaughter. I think if played by someone competant it could be an exceptionally powerful list.

BrainFireBob
12-06-2007, 21:10
The poll results are as expected. Most of us like it. And not because of any inane "you just want to nerf marines!" reason. Despite what the very vocal online detractor set may want to force to be the truth.

Ronin_eX
12-06-2007, 22:12
I also think that though the armory is gone most of the options that are commonly used are already there. Granted it would be nice if the psuedo special characters had the option to take terminator honors (or had it already)

Azrael has it built in more or less (base of 4 attacks) so we actually do have a DA character that has TH (just not in name, only as part of the profile). And many also seem to forget that the DA have banners that give entire squads +1 attack, not just one model (and for only 10 points above the price of TH). Terminator Honours were poorly thought out as a wargear choice and building attacks into the stat line is a much more elegant approach in the end.

ashc
12-06-2007, 22:19
I'm really glad others like the Dark Angel Codex; I have come back to the army that got me into wargaming with a deathwing force and its a hell of a lot of fun and very awesome.

I will happily trade listhammer for tacticalhammer. Roll on the new codex books!

Now to get a more decent advanced core ruleset....

Ash

Havock
12-06-2007, 23:05
I mourn the loss of customizability.
That is to say, it will strike the other codici.

Formarion
12-06-2007, 23:16
I like the codex, the special rules and equipment all sound pretty good and it works well on the tabletop once you work out an effecient list. The summary page is actually AT THE BACK of the codex, unlike the Tau and Eldar Summaries which are just before a painting section. What the hell is that all about? I like to be able to just flip open at the exact page to give my opponent a quick reference on my units abilities but have to skim over a painting guide first. That is actually one of my fav things about the whole codex; the placement of the summary page.

I like the Combat Squad rule, it actually encourages me to take my old razorbacks. The compulsary Veteran Sergeants doesn't affect me as I end up taking them anyway, plus you're getting a marine with full equipment and more 5 points cheaper than a normal SM marine could get them (assuming they could pay 1 point for a bolt pistol), so you're actually saving a lot of points in comparison ^^.

The fact I can take a free plasma cannon on my dread instead of an AC cannon is also quite good, as I never really liked AC cannons regardless of their almighty rending status. Plasmas have always intrigued me, and they are quite appropriate for DA.

The special characters are good too, as I have said before, it makes sense that the captain of the 1st company would be with his company as they head into battle, same with the ravenwing. At the end of the day, if you were going to take a deathwing army, you would be plonking your company master into terminator armour anyway so... As for Ravenwing, I never met anyone who previously played a pure ravenwing army before so I can't really make a good comparison.

That's about it really...of all the changes in this codex, 90% of them have pleased me, others have made me a little confused (no LR as dedicated troop choices, I thought those would still be a viable option considering the amount of terminator armour that would be strolling around the field), but overall it's a good codex in my opinion.

gitburna
12-06-2007, 23:29
i love it, ive already switched over my old marines into a new Dark angel format. It took a bit of jigging around and a few extra bolter men, luckily it was still a work in progress. But its actually made me reconsider the inefficient options like single lightning claws , i was paying 10 more points for one less attack but with a reroll to wound, or in some cases 2 less attacks when the owner was bolter armed.

having frag grenades and bolt pistols built in is excellent. havent had use for Krak grenades yet as i havnt faced anything in the dreadnought/killa kan bracket but woe betide them when i do!

all things said and done, i was never a Powerfist lascannon Plasma Gun Assault Cannon player before and i actually think the current list is easier to use and more reflective of the background than the codex space marines list. After Brightlances, plasma weapons and lascannons and assault cannons have taken a bit of a back seat now, i think the game will be much cooler.

exsulis
13-06-2007, 01:59
rofl.. I misspelled reflect.

Sorry Dicey but I was running out of spaces for answers.

AngryAngel
13-06-2007, 03:25
How do regular Space Marines get more for their points, when the DAs get Bolt Pistols, Bolters, Frag and Krak Grenades for the same price as a normal Marine that only gets a Bolter?

Regular get more for their points by I dunno, not having forced squad sizes. Not having forced vet sgts which are sometimes pointless. Not spending more base, pointlessly on dreads and land speeders. Which I have to point out is the biggest rip they pulled off. Paying 15 more points for the basic landspeeder, then having the balls to say "but you get a multi melta for free" it isn't free at all. You pay for it wether you want it or not, rip off. As well to point out the new pred dest is only 15 pts cheaper for DAs then it was for SMs.

That is..oddly enough about the same amount the annihilator went up by. Strange eh ? As well as the land speeder, and the dread price increase and most other options across the board.


Hear, hear

I know this would be a boring list but off the top of my head its effective and mimics the marine codex:

3 pred destructors
6 tactical squads(10 man) with las cannon and plasma gun.

1300 pts ish.

You use combat squads to get 15 scoring units, have a huge base of fire going down and still have points for a hero.

It might be boring but it would be effective.

Well thats the whole point isn't it ? Boring..one of the main reasons people hated marines so much, they see um all the time, and they're all the same. With these rules and what they plan for all marines, all dark angels really are is Green space marines with dubious benefits. Yeah if I sound a little pissed I am, I really would have liked to have known the army I picked had something special about it aside from crazy expensive bikes and terms.


I like some of the fluff but not other bits, still don't like the layout and because it nerfs marines!

I miss Asmodai as well.

My biggest bugbear with the codex is the bittersweet aftertaste it's left me.

People have mentioned the advantages and some have complained over the restrictions. This is old ground well trodden so I'll leave it alone. My problem is that whilst we have been surprisingly treated with stuff given and taken in about equal measure the future is the same for other all other space marines. Blood angels have received an update giving clear indication what's planned to marines in the future. Almost as soon as Dark angels came out rumours started about a redux for basic marines. With the Blood angel white dwarf list we have an idea what GW have in mind.

A lot of the nice things about the Dark angels are the changes to the basic marines. Before we had rules that made them unique from other chapters. Now we've lost intractable and the difference due to the extra equipment and combat squads is planned for all marines. So we lose that little bit of individuality. On paper very few of the DA specific characteristics look much. Almost none of them give any reliable advantage in taking out your opponents directly. They do provide an edge but they aren't always easy to take advantage of.

So it's hard to see why there's so much to get excited about for the army. For the game it's great marines work better overall and everything is more balanced. But at a selfish army level it's all to easy to feel sorry for yourself and just a bit short changed.

It's a better book than the 3rd edition one and for that people should be grateful.

I agree with what this guy said, the bittersweet taste, while some things feel good now. You know soon every other marine chapter will be exactly the same as DA..probably better in alot of ways and it isn't right. BTs can be unique, so can space wolves, even blood angels which while being alot like DA now, had their time in the sun of specialness. It just gets real old being just green marines. Its just not easy being green I guess.


this post really gave me a thought...

you see.... after the SM redo.....if ever.... this will be possible to do with any SM army
this list contains nothing DA specific.... yet you think that this is an effective DA list? seems wrong ....to me at least

as someone said.....there is less DA specific stuff
and this suggestion of a list is just green SMs

and you are right...it does seem boring...i might just try it out vs 9 obliterators, and 2 CC heavy hitters.....at least ill kill my opponent with boredom at the next tournie :)


That about sums it up for me, I won't jump ship because I don't like it. Hell I played vanilla marines during third, I can handle it. Though its a damn shame we're going to be such a boring chapter. As well not all people who have played the list, love it as has been claimed by a few on here. Some of the DA crowd are not wearing rose tinted shades in relation to this.

Master Bait
13-06-2007, 03:30
who cares

you like it, you like it. you don't, you move on.

big woop

already this thread is repeating itself over the thousand of other threads - nice of the OP to notice this, but damn him for reserructing this topic

Dark Angels aren't boring, these flame-fests are

Curufew
13-06-2007, 03:55
I like them very much. In a recent 2K point I have against Black Legion, the combat squad did very well and surprisingly enough none of my tanks were destroyed but at the end of the game, both of us had only like 7 marines on the board. 1 plasma gunner of mine and 6 havocs of his

Varath- Lord Impaler
13-06-2007, 04:00
Well, some folks might regard that Vet sergeant as a waste of points, depending on what squad he's leading. A Devestator Squad, for instance, might not see much close combat action.

In the fluff, to lead a squad of any marines you have to be a veteran, someone who is incredibly powerful among MARINES, Veteran sergeant SHOULD be standard. Also the sarge gives extra Ld to the squad aswell, remember?


Scouts as Elites is nonsense. Scouts are the chapter's trainees, not the creme of the crop. As such, it's entirely inappropriate for them to be an Elite choice. Also, I imagine your numbers are off. While Chapters might have set numbers as to how many of any other type of trooper they have, you'd expect them to have the flexibility to have as many Scouts as they can lay hold of, since the attrition rate from aspirant to Space Marine is so ferocious. Those that make it to the Scout Company are no doubt most of the way there, but not all Scouts are going to become full Battle Brothers.

Also, as a point of clarification, SM chapters do not have 100 Terminators and 100 Veterans. They have 100 Veterans who have the privelege of wearing Terminator Armor into battle, if the chapter happens to have access to them.

Plus, as far as your point about DA players taking two 5-man Scout Squads and then taking toys, I've never actually seen anyone do that. I'd think DA players would be unlikely to do that, as the sexy units they're likely to want to blow points on are Deathwing and Ravenwing. More accurately, since they can take them as Troops choices if they have the appropriate special characters, they'd have no need to take minimal Scout squads for fiddly min-maxing. Besides, the amount of points they'd save by taking two 5-man Scout Squads as opposed to two 5-man Tac squads is inconsequential. I don't remember if DA Scouts pay for a Vet Sergeant or not, but if they do, they'd be saving only 20 points.

People think that the FOC slot "Elites" means they have to be "Elite" squads. The Elites section of the FOC are supposed to be for unusual troops with unusual wargear and abilities. In the marines the Elites section of the Codex is filled with the units which arent in a marine battle company, none of them are standard, thats why they are in Elites.

I know about the 100 termies=100 vets, i just said it strangely. I just tried to emphasis, I apologise.


How many Iron Halos would I usually need to take? It doesn't make much sense to have two of the same kind of HQ choice in your army, as they make each other redundant. So, most SM players were probably not feeling the lack of an ability to take two or more Halos. However, DA players might be feeling the lack of the ability to take a Halo on their Librarians. Personally, I prefer taking Storm Shields to Iron Halos. I try very hard not to leave my ICs out where they can be singled out by enemy fire, so I rarely find them getting hit by a gun they can't take a save against. In close combat, the Storm Shield is just as good as the Iron Halo, but costs 15 points less. However, the Storm Shield didn't make it into the list of equipment that DA ICs can take, along with a lot of other gear that didn't make the transition from the Armory to JJ's new setup.[quote/]

You dont "need" to take any Iron Halos, the best thing about it is that your getting it standard.

Librarians arnt supposed to be as good fighters as the master, people think they do, they really really arnt. They are 'Niche' warriors, as are the Chaplain. Also, storm shields shouldnt be available to Power armoured models anyway, only a terminator is supposed to carry the energy to create the force field.



[quote]Well, the points cost on bikes is prohibitive. With DA bikes, even more so. DSing Termies on the first turn could be as much a liability as an asset, especially since Terminator squads took a hard hit from the JJ nerf bat.

Hmm Prohibitive? i dont see them as prohibitive, they cost the same as a terminator while fulfulling the completly opposite niche. They can scout, a huge bonus for a fast unit, they are bikes, giving them things like turboboosting, They have twin linked bolters and the ability for heavy bolters, multimeltas and other special weapons. a unit of 7, while expensive, can still put the boot in, in combat and shooting. They can grab objectives (where their large points cost helps)

To me ravenwing are the perfect Long hammer unit, able to hit and hurt something from a long way away.


Already had one. I call them flamers. I like to take them in Assault Squads. Too bad DAs can't take flamers in their Assault Squads anymore. I also particuarly like heavy flamers. Those'll do IG real well, regardless of what equipment they have or what cover they take. All the units that can carry heavy flamers took hard hits from the JJ nerf bat too, because JJ wanted to tone down AC spam, but wouldn't take the logical step of actually toning down the AC.

Hmmm, next time you fly around try to use a flamerthrower and see what happens, ill collect your ashes in the morning.

Really, flamer+flight= bad idea

When facing guardsmen (or any shooty army) saying "ill beat them in combat and short ranged shooting" isnt enough. Take it from my World Eaters, long range firepower that ignores LoS and Cover? Gold, pure gold.

Terminators got toned down?

Oh wait, i only ever took Thunder hammer terminators, i didnt notice.

I assume you mean "The amount of heavy weapons" was toned down which is appropriate in my eyes.


Who isn't an Independent Character, which means he can be singled out for shooting, and he costs almost as much as a Land Raider all by his own damn self.

Isnt an independant character means he can capture objectives too. He costs...*checks*...wow, thats quite cheap for a character of his Caliber.

5 attacks with a master crafted power weapon on the charge. A plasma cannon (and a storm bolter if thats your thing, but cant fire both unfortunatly) and Adamantine mantle AND an Iron Halo (meaning that if he is shot he's going to survive)

The ability to make bike squads troops, Rites of Battle, The ability to charge and escape when he needs to...

And a cool model to boot.

I dont see your arguement really. Sure Ravenwing and their character are expensive, but if you play them well using cover to block and attacking only when you can win, theyre a nasty army. Alot like DE actually.

BARON SAMDI
13-06-2007, 04:56
it turfed most of my soldiers in my army and i did not like how it effected my tank column

Varath- Lord Impaler
13-06-2007, 05:07
Hmmm you took Lascannon Preds? Lascannon Razorbacks?


Pretty much anything with Lascannons is going to be expensive now, apart from that the vehicles seemed to stay the same or go down in price.

Rhino Case in point.

ashc
13-06-2007, 08:21
Yes heavy weapons have gone up in points for DAs and their vehicles; people should fully expect this across the board for every new codex out there (and for when the vanilla marine codex is redone).

Its obviously one way GW are trying to combat plasma/lascannon spammage.

Ash

Varath- Lord Impaler
13-06-2007, 08:28
Also to make Vehicles and heavy infantry more viable

ashc
13-06-2007, 08:32
Also to make Vehicles and heavy infantry more viable

Well yes, thats the knock-on effect by removing the spammage :)

Whether it will actually work or not time will tell.

Ash

Varath- Lord Impaler
13-06-2007, 10:01
Well im not going to buy a predator with lascannons, are you?

machine_recovered_meat
13-06-2007, 10:43
and i did not like how it effected my tank column

I'd see the doctor about that, I'm sure he can prescribe a cream for it ;)

Varath- Lord Impaler
13-06-2007, 11:59
problems with your lascannon? Ive heard there are pills for it now, too

Grand Master Raziel
13-06-2007, 16:01
You dont "need" to take any Iron Halos, the best thing about it is that your getting it standard.

My point is that I don't want them at all. I'm perfectly happy using the less expensive alternatives. In Codex: Dark Angels, not only are the less expensive alternatives not available to the Company Masters, the more expensive piece of wargear I didn't want in the first place is included in the base cost, with no points break for it.


Librarians arnt supposed to be as good fighters as the master, people think they do, they really really arnt. They are 'Niche' warriors, as are the Chaplain.

Well, in that case, Company Captains and Chapter Masters should be WS6. :D


Also, storm shields shouldnt be available to Power armoured models anyway, only a terminator is supposed to carry the energy to create the force field.

Hey, if a little loop of wire (the iron halo) can generate a force field that protects a guy's whole body, then the much larger shield is capable of holding the generator of a shield that only covers the shield.




Hmm Prohibitive? i dont see them as prohibitive, they cost the same as a terminator while fulfulling the completly opposite niche. They can scout, a huge bonus for a fast unit, they are bikes, giving them things like turboboosting, They have twin linked bolters and the ability for heavy bolters, multimeltas and other special weapons. a unit of 7, while expensive, can still put the boot in, in combat and shooting. They can grab objectives (where their large points cost helps)

I suppose that's the glass-is-half-full outlook. I've tried to view bikes positively, but I keep coming back to the fact that bikes are practically as expensive as terminators, but their only significant advantage over Termies is that they're faster. Termies come with a better armor save and a decent invulnerable save, the same firepower close in and better firepower at longer range, more attacks, and a power fist. For all of that, Termies are overcosted if you can only take 1 heavy in the squad.



Hmmm, next time you fly around try to use a flamerthrower and see what happens, ill collect your ashes in the morning.

Really, flamer+flight= bad idea

Hey man, if we're going to put the kibosh on everything in this game that's unrealistic, none of us will have anything in our armies at all. The point is that there were already effective counters to the Camo-guard that you were postulating.


When facing guardsmen (or any shooty army) saying "ill beat them in combat and short ranged shooting" isnt enough.

Really? It's worked for me so far. Maybe you haven't tried using flamers very often.



Isnt an independant character means he can capture objectives too. He costs...*checks*...wow, thats quite cheap for a character of his Caliber.


With only 3 wounds and being subject to being targeted, he won't hold an objective very long. He may have wonderful abilities, but you pay through the nose for each and every one of them.


Also to make Vehicles and heavy infantry more viable

Heavy infantry, maybe, although that will probably be accompanied by even more complaints about MEQs. Vehicles, not so much, because their fundamental fragility has not been removed.

"Here's my 250 point Land Raider!"
"Oh, look, my very first lascannon shot blew it up!"
"Crap! Why did I pay 250 points for that piece of junk?"

Lessening the amount of heavy weapons on the table may help a little, but it's a lazy way of going about it. It also de-facto up-powers Monstrous Creatures, as heavy weapons are the main threat that they face as well.

Dicey
13-06-2007, 17:51
In the fluff, to lead a squad of any marines you have to be a veteran, someone who is incredibly powerful among MARINES, Veteran sergeant SHOULD be standard. Also the sarge gives extra Ld to the squad aswell, remember?

Except squads have sargeants and vet sargeants, now only vet sarg can be used, a whole rank has now gone!!

rintinglen
13-06-2007, 19:39
I dislike the new codex and think it bad for the game. Dark Angels cost about 7 marines more in points for a comparable army viv a vis an identical one selected from the basic Space Marine codex. The lack of flexibility in useful squad sizes (the razorback holds 6 guys--but squds come in 5 or 10--b******t) hurts the codex. But to me the most dangerous thing about the nerf to the SM is that SM are the most common starter army. If little Johnny can't win a game with his SMURFS, he gets discouraged, buys the latest WOW and turns his back on the whole game, denigrating it to his friends, so they don't try it either. If GW can't keep people coming in the door, sales drop, Jervis Johnson loses his job, the next guy trys to right the ship by reversing this ill chosen course and we are right back where we started. In my observation, thus far DA are 2w-3t-9l in games I have witnessed since the new codex came out. I keep reading a lot of "I-have-been-playing-Dark Angels-since-the-dawn-of-time-and-they-still-work-great-for-me" propaganda, but the reality of what I have seen at the LA Battle Bunker is far removed from that. Most recently, I saw a fellow whom I know to be a skilled and experienced player get massacred by an eldar player of similar skill. despite the fact that the DA player was rolling better than he had any right to expect. ("make 9 armour saves." Rolls,
"OK, whats next?" as 9 dice come up 3's or better.) This is not a good thing, and if it spreads, it will only make the Eldar players happy, while driving many potential players away from the gmae.

VetSgtNamaan
13-06-2007, 22:25
I like the Dark Angels codex infact I love it. Most of the changes never affected me anyway since I rarely take vehicles(though the cheaper rhinos have swayed me on occassion) and always take 10 man squads. I always have a vet sarge anyway with a powerfist in every squad. WHile I tend to shy away from special weapons I tend to put a hvy weapon in each tactical squad. While I am not the best player in my area I never had a problem before or after the codex to stay competitive though admitedly I focus more on the fluff than competiveness and found that you can have both. There is a problem with the codex that I have found in that you can easily get sidetracked with wanting to put in all the shiney new toys and end up with a list that just will not work. SO as long as I take a little more time and care in my list compostion I find it is all good in the end.