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The Song of Spears
12-06-2007, 21:29
General:
Highborn
-Sea Dragon Cloak
-Heavy Armour
-Shield
-Blade of Ruin
-Ring of Darkness
+Black Dragon mount

Special:
15 Harpies
20 Witch Elves of khaine

Core:
17 Warriors
-Repeater Crossbows

20 Warriors
-Shields

20 Corsairs

10 Dark Riders

Rare:
2 Reaper Bolt Throwers

Ideas here, first time playing WHF, General and Harpies attack enemy far flank
while the Witches and Dark Riders attack opposite far flank

Warriors with shields take front and center, with cross bows to their back, and the Reapers to the far back and the Corsairs to their side for counter charge or simple front line support with warriors.

Will it work?

No upgrades that have not been shown here have been taken, assume that all i wrote is all they got. I don't need musicians or standards do I?

Lander
12-06-2007, 21:35
If its 2000pts you need some magic defense.

The Song of Spears
12-06-2007, 21:37
Why? What do you mean?

Are you saying i toss in a 100 pts sorceress with 'anti enemy magic' items?

alkaboom
12-06-2007, 21:46
yeah, it would be very usefull. equip her with a scroll or 2.

The Song of Spears
12-06-2007, 21:49
Duly noted, i will look into adding one.

Anything else?

Anything that is pretty common that i will suffer against?

Red_Lep
12-06-2007, 21:53
A local player has done very well with two armies that only have the two basic DD at many competitive tourneys.

Makaber
12-06-2007, 22:01
The Ring of Darkness is practically useless unless you have some magic offense as well. If you have both, you force your opponent to spend Dispell Dice to counter the ring, thus leaving him more open to your sorceresses (or, of course, disregard the Ring and leave your character almost invinsible). At the moment, he can just save the dispell dice for it, with 35/36th chance of shutting it down every round.

The Song of Spears
12-06-2007, 22:28
Ah, i didn't know they could dispel bound level 4 items.

Ok... so you are saying if i dont have magic to threaten him into using his dispel dice to dispel the ring, even having scrolls wont help me against his dispel dice?

EDIT:
So what is the best way to kit out a DE Sorceress to make her cheap but threatening?

gerrymander61
12-06-2007, 23:08
Ok... so you are saying if i dont have magic to threaten him into using his dispel dice to dispel the ring, even having scrolls wont help me against his dispel dice?

Yeah basically.

What I'd do is exchange the Corsairs for another unit of spearmen wiht shields and with the 40 points that saves you get Standard Bearers for your units of spearmen. Also, i'd split up your unit of dark riders into two units of five for more mobility and battlefield presence. But if you want a fast unit with a rank, then drop one crossbowman and buy them a standard too. Its really cheap static CR, why not use it?

The Song of Spears
12-06-2007, 23:12
Ok so then is a standard 70 point sorceress with a scroll of dispel or two good enough to threaten the other guy, or do i have to upgrade her to level 2 caster? or do i have to go all the way to a level 4 caster high sorceress?

Since you can't pick spells, how do i ensure the sorceress threatens the enemy to make him spend his dispel dice on her?

As far as CR.. i will do that once i have nailed down the sorceress idea here, and see where i can squeeze points from to get it...

zakk_wylde001
12-06-2007, 23:44
Use the spells you get wisely, the opponent will generate dispel dice every turn, not just at the beginning of the battle. Are you fully aware of the magic rules?

For magic defence, a level 1 Sorceress with 2 dispel scrolls will be fine.

Makaber
13-06-2007, 00:00
Also, the Seal of Ghrond on another character can be a very good investment.

I'd suggest reading up on the magic rules a bit. I could go into great detail about it, but it's pretty clearly described in the rulebook. Bear in mind that there's a significant difference between magical offense and defense. The current setup you have is very defensive; if you want magic to play a significant offensive role in your strategy, you should aim at about 6 levels of magic in the army overall.

The Song of Spears
13-06-2007, 15:34
Ok, well, as per requested i read up on the Magic rules and I realize that the ring is only level 4 , meaning that the other guy only needs to expend 1 maybe 2 dice to dispel it.

So unless he has two high ranking mages out there, or is a dwarf(which i wont strictly account for as i dont face dwarves every game) he will only have 3 or 4 dispel dice to spend, maybe a few more due to items.

So i went with this:
a single Sorceress, Level 2, with the item (forget name atm) that allows her to spend as many dice as she wants to cast. Meaning that the 2 spells she gets could easily go off if she wants, ergo, if the enemy wants to cancel her spells, he will have to spend a good portion or all of his dispel dice to resist her. In addition to that i gave her a item than gives her +1 to her dispel pool. Bringing her her to about 150 points, and being IMO fairly effective.

Think that will keep my general and his ring safe from dispels?

Note:
Oh yeah, and one thing that was not clear was scrolls of dispel vs. enchanted items, I kinda got the impression a scroll could not dispel a enchanted item, is that true?

Saben
13-06-2007, 15:48
It's quite possible that your opponent will save his dispel dice for the ring. But if he does that- then your sorceress is getting off two spells of her own! Even if your ring basically counts as a decoy it can still play a nice strategic role. Just don't expect to be able to use it. Different opponents will do different things with their dispel dice.

Oh and I'd also recommend taking Dark Magic against shooty opponents and the Lore of Death against non. With a level 2 Sorc you'll often be choosing to take the default spell and while Chillwind is great against shooting armies, against a heavy infantry/ cavalry list, you're better off with S4 hits. I wouldn't bother with Shadow- it has its uses but if you want to scare your opponent into using dispel dice then often offensive magic is the way to go. (Of course, the smart general will have enough restraint to take a few wounds to magic if it allows him to kill your Lord).

The Song of Spears
13-06-2007, 15:52
And i think that is the very strategy Makaber(and others) was referring to.

If you all agree, then the sorceress should be able to be a threat large enough that if he ignores her in favour of dispelling the ring, then she gets to pound him with some nasty spells at will.

Oh yeah, and since the ring is a bound spell, the book made no mention of what happens later turns. If the other guy dispels the ring turn 1, then since the spell is still bound to the ring does it come back turn 2 unless he dispels it again? It is after all, a 'always on' spell...

Saben
13-06-2007, 15:57
The spell is remains in play, so if you cast it the enemy is able to dispel it in the turn it is cast and in each of his own magic phases (by using power dice as dispel dice). You can recast it in each of your own magic phases and he'll be able to try and dispel it each time. The only bound spell items that are exhausted are One Use Only and this is noted in their descriptions. The Crystal of Midnight listed on page 20 of the revised Dark Elf Army Book is an example of such a bound spell item.

The Song of Spears
13-06-2007, 16:03
Great then here is the new list:

General:
Highborn
-Sea Dragon Cloak
-Heavy Armour
-Shield
-Blade of Ruin
-Ring of Darkness
+Black Dragon mount

Character:
Sorceress
-Level 2 upgrade
-Black Staff (no power point use restriction)
-item that gives her +1 dispel dice

Special:
15 Harpies
15 Witch Elves of Khaine

Core:
15 Warriors
-Repeater Crossbows

15 Warriors
-Shields

15 Corsairs

5 Dark Riders

5 Dark Riders

Rare:
2 Reaper Bolt Throwers
_____________
@ 1998 points

I am too afraid to shrink the unit sizes at this point, i could squeeze in some standards or musicians, but at a loss of (too many maybe?) troops...

EDIT:
Just cleaned up a bit, and split out the Dark Riders..

Makaber
13-06-2007, 23:26
15 harpies are probably a bit too many, they have a terrible Leadership so you might end up losing many points really quickly. I'd reduce them to maybe 9. They certainly need to be US5 to do any good, and 9 means your opponent will have to kill three with shooting to force a panic test on them.

I run my Witch Elves 14, which is 7 wide and 2 deep. They do their job by virtue of a lot of attacks, so you need to run them wide, not deep. The extra rank is just to ensure they're wide enough even if they're shot at a little. 15 crossbows might be a bit much, they're very expensive. I'd maybe try out a small unit of 10.

The Dark Riders should probably be split into two units of 5. They also really benefit from having a musician, since they'll end up taking rally tests a lot.

With the points saved, I'd try to get a banner or two in there, maybe bulk up some of the units a little.

The Song of Spears
13-06-2007, 23:32
Hmm, i suppose i could drop the harpies to 10, but i expect them to take a fair amount of shooting casualties, and i dont want them to run before they get into combat.

as far as other units i was hoping to use higher numbers to nearly negate the worry of taking leadership tests and possibly do better in combat as well as take casualties better... is this idea somehow flawed in some way?

Holy Crap! Manticores!
14-06-2007, 01:48
Great then here is the new list:

General:
Highborn
-Sea Dragon Cloak
-Heavy Armour
-Shield
-Blade of Ruin
-Ring of Darkness
+Black Dragon mount

Character:
Sorceress
-Level 2 upgrade
-item that lets her use as many casting dice as she wants/has
-item that gives her +1 dispel dice

Special:
15 Harpies
15 Witch Elves of Khaine

Core:
15 Warriors
-Repeater Crossbows

15 Warriors
-Shields

15 Corsairs

10 Dark Riders

Rare:
2 Reaper Bolt Throwers
_____________
@ 1998 points

I am too afraid to shrink the unit sizes at this point, i could squeeze in some standards or musicians, but at a loss of (too many maybe?) troops...First off, welcome to the proper elf army.

I'm not a fan of Dragons in 2k, but the suggestion I'll make here is to switch the Ring with the Shield of Ghrond. My General (Highborn m/o Cold One) has used HA, SDC, Shield of Ghrond... has not been killed in over 20 games. A similar setup would give your general 3+ AS/2+ AS vs shooting, and reduce the S of enemy attacks by 1... a beautiful thing.

I think your Sorc would be better served with the Seal of Ghrond (Ghrond makes cool stuff, no?) and the Darkstar Cloak. The Lvl 2 upgrade may be debatable, as an army with more Wizards will more or less shut down your offensive magic. That's 40 pts you could spens on FC for your Witches. If you can find another 15 points, give the Hag Witchbrew (for CR bonus negation) or Manbane (for killing power).

Also, break the Dark Riders into two units of 5 ea. If you can find 14 pts, you may consider giving them musicians for the rally bonus.

Makaber
14-06-2007, 10:34
Darkstar Cloak on a Level 1 Sorceress would leave her with 4 Power Dice, but she only knows one spell, and she can only use a maximum of 2 Power Dice to cast it. Maybe you're thinking about the Black Staff for 20 points, allowing her to disregard the Power Dice per spell limitation?

The Song of Spears
14-06-2007, 16:08
First off, welcome to the proper elf army.

I'm not a fan of Dragons in 2k, but the suggestion I'll make here is to switch the Ring with the Shield of Ghrond. My General (Highborn m/o Cold One) has used HA, SDC, Shield of Ghrond... has not been killed in over 20 games. A similar setup would give your general 3+ AS/2+ AS vs shooting, and reduce the S of enemy attacks by 1... a beautiful thing.

I think your Sorc would be better served with the Seal of Ghrond (Ghrond makes cool stuff, no?) and the Darkstar Cloak. The Lvl 2 upgrade may be debatable, as an army with more Wizards will more or less shut down your offensive magic. That's 40 pts you could spens on FC for your Witches. If you can find another 15 points, give the Hag Witchbrew (for CR bonus negation) or Manbane (for killing power).

Also, break the Dark Riders into two units of 5 ea. If you can find 14 pts, you may consider giving them musicians for the rally bonus.

Ok, thats a bunch of votes for splitting the dark riders up, so they shall be split into two groups of 5.

If you could tell me a bit more about your General and Sorceress, they are configurations i didn't consider... Would they really be able to shut her down so easy? and in the end maybe that is ok with me as Makaber said, then my Highborn gets to run around untouched thanks to his ring, ja?



Darkstar Cloak on a Level 1 Sorceress would leave her with 4 Power Dice, but she only knows one spell, and she can only use a maximum of 2 Power Dice to cast it. Maybe you're thinking about the Black Staff for 20 points, allowing her to disregard the Power Dice per spell limitation?

Yes you are correct in that it is the 20 point Black Staff she has, that way she can use all 4 dice (2 base + 2 for being level 2) i believe.

Saben
14-06-2007, 19:39
As a level 2 Sorc she can already use all 4 Power Dice. You just use 2 per spell (or 3 on 1 and 1 on the other). The Power Dice limitation is only per single spell. If you keep her a level 2 I'd recommend the Darkstar Cloak. It'd give you 5 Power Dice to split between 2 spells, which allows you to take some of the more challenging spells to cast.

If you drop her to level 1 then you might consider the Black Staff. With only a single spell that only 2 dice can be used on you are wasting the 3rd dice. Of course if you drop her to level 1 then you aren't really going to be using much offensive magic. I'd keep her as level 2 if you want to use the ring. An army with more casting power might be able to shut you down, but you never know what the dice will show.

The Song of Spears
14-06-2007, 20:29
Keeping the black staff i may get two spells, but one of them might be quite a nasty one in which case she can spend up to all 4 dice to cast it, forcing the other player to use a lot of dice to dispel it (at least thats the idea)

Having two spells seems to be to simply increase the chances of rolling a decent spell. Other than a few special characters you never get to pick your spells, ja?