PDA

View Full Version : Hordes of Chaos 2000 pts



Stezerok
13-06-2007, 00:44
This is the list I plan to use against my friends in the Nemesis Crown campaign. I havent played FB in a while, but if there are any suggestions I'd be glad to take them so long as you explain yourself.

Lord of Chaos: /w great weapon, Armor of Damnation, Gaze of the Gods, and Helm of Many Eyes: 301 pts

Aspiring Champion of Chaos: /w Armor of Tortured Souls, Biting Blade, and a shield: 132 pts
Sorcerer of Chaos: /w level 2, dispel scroll, and spell familiar: 160 pts

Warriors of Chaos (14): /w halberds, shields, full command, Banner of Wrath, and chosen: 402 pts
Marauders of Chaos (24): /w light armor, shields, and full command: 193 pts
Marauders of Chaos (24): /w light armor, shields, and full command: 193 pts
Knights (5): /w musician, champion, and chosen: 255 pts
Warhounds (6): 36 pts
Warhounds (6): 36 pts

Furies (8): 120 pts
Screamers (5): 165 pts

Total Points: 1993 pts
Total Models: 95 models

So I wanted to go for a balance between Magic, CC, and mobile units. I think it will perform fairly well, the three characters will join the marauders and warriors, probably with the Lord in one of the units of marauders and either the sorc or aspiring champion in the other. Where I put those two heroes I'm not sure, is there any advice as far as whether the sorc is better with the warriors or not? so anyhow, any advice would be appreciated, just please explain your reasoning so I can better learn from it. Thanks!

MarcoPollo
13-06-2007, 04:25
What about for your lord. Armor of Damnation, Helm of many eyes, and slaughterers blade from the BoC book. The combination exponentially increases the effect of the items.

3 screemers can do the job of 5 while your furries go for the fleeing troops.

Also, the unit of warriors is very expensive. With your lord in there, that unit costs 700+ pts. That is more than 1/3 of your army. Personally, I do not like wariors at all. But if forced to use them, I use them at 10 strong, with mark of khorne and halberds in a detachment role.

5 warhounds instead of 6 too. (3 in the front rank and 2 in the back rank to minimize the attacks that hit back).

That Guy
13-06-2007, 18:57
Your Lord needs a mount. I'd avoid him, and I'd probably be able to pull it off. Like MarcoPollo says, that unit is a third of your army. That's too much. Furthermore, I'm not a big fan of Chaos Lords. Ld 9 is nice, but it's 210 points naked! Yikes! I'd just tool up an Exalted Champion. Much more reasonable, and can still whomp on anything up to a Vampire.

Your force is pretty balanced, but there is no magical balance. You have 4 power dice. And a bound spell. Your opponant will likely have 4 (or more) Dispell dice plus a scroll or two. My prediction is you won't be getting many spells off.

I also agree about the screamers. I'd go with four, but three will probably work just as well.

I'd give your Aspiring Champ a battle standard. It's almost mandatory, really. Chaos leadership is average, but point cost is way above average. The Battle Standard helps you not hate your leadership so much. And give him a horse too, if only for the +2 armor save.

I definately like the basic premise here though: big block of Marauders, plus mobile and hitty elements. It just needs a little refining. (and the dismantling of that 700 point unit)

Kerill
14-06-2007, 01:49
I think its a nice list but might be on the underpowered side.

Your magic phase is probably going to be dispelled altogether and the bound spell isn't going to do much even if your opponent lets it through. As a result the level 2 upgrade isn't going to do much and the spell familiar is therefore a bit of a waste of point. Plus as a result the banner of wrath is probably a waste of points as well.
I also agree about the screamers being a little too large (true they can get a crossfire with US5 but that assumes they aren't going to be whittled down a bit by shooting magic.

Not sure why 6 warhounds is better than 5 either.

Assuming you drop the sorcerer to level 1, lose the spell familiar for another scroll, drop 2 warhounds and 2 screamers and drop the banner of wrath that saves you 35+12+66+50-10= 153 points +7 points already spare= 160 points more to spend.

You really need to upgrade your aspiring to bsb so thats +25 points but the rerolling break tests and +1 CR will help a lot. (135 points left)

You also have an awful lot of protective items on your lord- strikes first, a ward save and the armour of damnation, might be a bit of overkill (the armour of damnation would go nicely on the bsb and would save you another 40 points. (175 points left)

Since the slow part of your army is dependent on CR the war banner for the warriors would help a great deal, especially if they get charged by something nastier.

I'm not sure what you plan for the chosen knights but if they are out and about on their own they are going to get overwhelmed quite easily. If they are for flanking you might consider changing them to nirmal knights and giving them the war banner. Still this depends on what you plan to use them for.

As stated you really need to mount your lord so he can get around easier and can potentially then help out the chosen knights if need be. You can go for the barded steed (thereby boosting his AS to 2+ and making up slightly for the loss of preotection of giving the armour of damnation to the bsb.

Alternatively if he is with the marauders initially then a daemonsteed will make them immune to fear (useful against ogres/undead and autobreaks), means you enemy may fail a charge due to a failed fear test to charge him, will fill out the ranks somewhat and can again support the knights/daemons with a charge of 16" and an extra 2 S5 attacks.

Even if he stays with the marauders he now becomes almost cannon proof (he gets his look out sir roll, and even if he fails that the hit will be randomised between his steed (expendable since he is with foot troops anyway) and the lord himself. Also in combat there will be only 3 marauders in the front rank which may reduce your opponents attacks against soft troops since the lord is T5, 4+ save, 4+ward and his steed is T5 5+ward- far more difficult to wound than a squishy marauder. If you do this make sure he is on a corner of the unit and remember to move him to the corner most threatened by enemy charges (his extra M rate also means the marauders will not be slowed down by these shenanigans). assuming you go the daemonsteed you have 125 points left.

If you drop 2/3 marauders from the generals warrior unit (since he now has US3 more and fills 4 spaces) you would have enough for a spawn to hold a flank/rear of the army and a unit of 5 mounted marauders with spears/flails. Try and scrathc a few more points up to get a musician for this unit and protect them from shooting with hounds the first turn.

I think this will make your army a bit more powerful without bwing cheesy or changing too many models. The only problem is that the enemy doesnt really need to come to you if they are shooty/magic/war machine heavy. As a result, you could ifnore the spawn/marauders choice above and depending on how much you want to stay undivided I would change the BSB to mark of Tzeentch and restore the magic level to the sorcerer. That leaves you with 20 points. You could drop a marauder and get another scroll or drop the scroll for a power familiar giving you 7 power dice (reasonable) and 5 dispel dice (also pretty good) whilst not being overpowered. Since you already have a tzeentch marked unit (screamers) if would fit well with the army. Tzeenthc also gives you a chance for a 5+ ward save for the entire unit (which combined with his re-roll to hit will make your aspiring champion even harder) making you more likely to win a combat even if charged. You also have a guaranteed 30" range magic missile which has some scare potential (6 S6 hits if you sell your soul before the battle!)

If you are happy to make even more changes to marks then changing the chaos warriors to non chosen khorne will hit just as hard, save 39 points and give you yet another dispel die.

EDIT- just recounted, if you do but the war banner you won't have 20 points left at the end so you will need to drop a marauder to stay under 2000 points. If the knights lose their chosen status you will have lots of points to spare.

Stezerok
14-06-2007, 02:40
um the lord is going in the marauders... which means there's really no need for a 230 pt guy that gives them stubborn...

as far as the screamers, I'll try it with them at 3, but doesnt that mean that they only deal 3 of their slashing hits to a unit? isnt that kind of useless? at least 5 is something to deal with? or am I missing something?

as for the warriors, I personally love the warriors, and definitely wont get rid of them... I may decide to get rid of the banner on the other hand, I dont know if its really worth it. But thats where the sorcs going so it will only be like 560 not the whopping 700 lol...

And also how should I increase my magic section... I did think it was a bit low, but I wasnt sure how else I could bolster it... any ideas?

as far as avoiding the lord, I mean he's not there to hunt opposing lords, he's there to waste your troops, and keep my guys from running...

Edit: just saw Kerills post, I'll think more on it when I get back...

TheDarkArg
14-06-2007, 16:32
If you want to bolster your magic phase there are a couple of things you can do. First you need another caster, a lvl 2 sorcerer w/ power familiar would give you enough dice to get some things through in the magic phase.

Or if you really want a lot more magic power, swap the lord for an exalted champion (who's still a nasty troop killer with a gw) and get a lvl 4 sorcerer geared up however you like. Or just make your Lord of tzeentch and give him the staff for an insane magic phase (and equally obscene price tag).

The third option, which I've been trying out with some varried luck recently is the exalted daemon as your extra wizard. They're extremly mobile, cause terror and often make your opponent panic just by being placed on the table. Downside is that it'll cost you 300+ pts to take one as a lvl2 caster, that and the 2 hero slots. If you go that route, always take diabolic splendor to get a proper ward save. With as many dwarves as carve runes into their cannons you'll appreciate the investment.

The extra lvl 2 sorcerer is probably the cheapest way to improve things but depending on how magic heavy/defensive your opponents are it could prove nearly useless.

Stezerok
15-06-2007, 22:52
yea what I'm really having trouble with is balancing the fact that the characters are so expensive, with the number of troops... lol there are so many things I want to put in from the chaos books, but I only have so many points. I'll rewrite the list with some changes like you guys have suggested and we'll see what you all think! Thanks so far!

Stezerok
16-06-2007, 22:27
Ok so I thought about some of the responses, and how to incorporate them (which I don't think I could put them all in) but tell me how this is. I finally got my Beastmen codex back, and so have made these as an addition as well.

Lord of Chaos: /w Sword of Might, Chaos Runeshield, and barded Chaos steed: 304 pts
Aspiring Champion: /w battle standard bearer, and the Banner of the Gods: 230 pts
Sorcerer of Chaos: /w level 2, and power familiar: 170 pts
Bray-Shaman of Chaos: /w level 2, and 2x dispel scrolls: 160 pts

Chariot of Chaos: 120 pts
Chariot of Chaos: 120 pts
Marauders (19): /w light armor, shields, musician, and champion: 148 pts
Marauders (19): /w light armor, shields, and full command: 158 pts
Knights (4): /w musician, and champion: 162 pts
Warhounds (5): 30 pts

Beast Herd (11 Gors, 8 Ungors): /w shields, and a foe-render: 148 pts
Furies (8): 120 pts
Screamers (3): 99 pts

Total Points: 1999 pts
Total Models: 71 infantry (including Screamers), and 14 cavalry (I count chariots as two each)

So what do you guys think? its a similar principle. The Chariots will rush the enemy front lines, and break them hopefully while the slower herd and marauders will slog up to clean up the mess. The furies and screamers will flank either both on one side, or split like a pincer, to harass shooters/cannons/wizards. The Knights and Lord will flank the enemy infantry, once engaged by my troops. I think I balanced out the magic problem with a total of 7 power dice, and 4 dispel... I don't know if its entirely enough, but I think it is. I thought about marking the chariots which didnt sound like a bad idea, but I didn't have enough points, and don't know whether its worth dropping anything to do it.

TheDarkArg
16-06-2007, 23:57
For the most part I really like this version of your list, but have a couple of minor things that bother me in it.

First, Chaos Runeshield w/ magic weapon is a waste of points since it disables all magic weapons, not just enemy ones. Take the armor of damnation, crown of everlasting conquest, or just drop the sword of might. 5 S5 attacks is enough to mangle most things without much help.

Second, you need full command in your marauders. The miniscule 10pts for the extra 1CR for your 2nd unit of infantry is a must. The same goes for your knights. You'll never get an extra rank on chaos knights, but the banner is cheap CR that means you break anyone just that much easier.

The third thing I'd be a bit wary about fielding this list is unit sizes, I like marauder blocks of 24-25 (depending on characters). To make all of these changes you'd need to cut some points somewhere, I'd probably drop the Sword of might and trade the BSB down to the banner of wrath since you have enough magic for it to be useful. I think that'd be enough pts to cover those changes.

Stezerok
17-06-2007, 00:09
ok so I think I see what you're saying but let me ask a couple of questions too.

The Chaos Runeshield reads "carried by models in base contact" I'm unsure of how that translates to "all magical weapons"... I mean is he considered in base contact with himself?

and as for the banner in the unit of marauders, thats where the BSB is going, so they'll still get the CR am I correct?

Also I would agree that I generally like them in units of 25, but under the circumstances unless I am wrong about the above things, then I dont really think its worth changing. Not to mention Kerill was saying how Ld for Chaos is bad relative to points, so I'm really either going to go BSB for Banner of the Gods, or not at all. Besides he doesnt need BSB to get Banner of Wrath does he? thats in his pts limit on magic items isnt it?

Kerill
18-06-2007, 03:25
The runeshield doesnt affect your own weapon, still there are much fewer magic weapons about these days and they tend not to be too powerful anyway. The banner of the gods is very expensive at 2000 points, I'd be wary of using it. A normal bsb re-roll might be enough (don't forget the normal bsb gives and extra +1 to CR anyway).

To me the banner of the gods says "attrition" i.e. I will cut you to pieces for a couple of turns until you run. Marauders with hw+shield don't really do that too well. Still marauders blocks supported by chariots are a good choice (sending them ahead to "break units" is not- marauders and chariots charge together. At the same time with the banner of the gods they become a very good tarpit too- good toughness, wounds, save, attacks- very good unless there is S7 attacks somewhere.

Now your knights unit is unacceptable- 4 models means every war machine can target your lord without a lookout sir save- oh dear he's dead on turn 1.

I agree on the full commands too. Remember the BSB adds +1CR above and beyond a normal banner in 7th edition so marauders with 2 banners get +2.

We need points for full commands

We need at least 1 more knight

The BSB only has a 4+save so we need a steed for him (remember in 7th edition he can go on a steed with the unit and cant be picked out with shooting).

So...


Drop the runeshield and sword of might, buy a halberd and either eye of the gods or armour of damnation- saves us34 points

Buy your general a book of secrets- yay he can now cast spells and might get the flaming sword of rhuin as a treat. Nets us +1Pd and DD (-6 points now)

As a result we can drop the power familiar (-44 points).

Beast herd has the wrong balance, lets go for 12 ungors and 8 gors (incl full command) -56 points

Hmmm its getting difficult to spare these points now.

First the bray shaman needs a bray staff- 6points

50 points left so a standard for the marauders (40 left)

A chaos steed for your battle standard bearer (24 left)

Another chaos knight-33 9 over.

Drop 2 furies- 21 under so thats three more marauders for the bsb unit.

or drop one fury and add an ungor.

Suggested strategy- knights and lord supported by 1 chariot and hounds (to redirect the enemy) advance on a flank. Furies/screamers slow stuff down/attack war machines. Slow stuff (marauders, beastmen on one flank, chariot on the other) advance to destroy center of enemy army.

Stezerok
18-06-2007, 19:32
hmm... I'm still playing with the 6th ed then... lol I'll need to get the new edition... So I wont be able to post points for this seeing as my book is over at my friends house, but I trust you guys in your advice

ok so then how is this...

Lord of Chaos: /w Halberd, Armor of Damnation, Book of Secrets, and barded Chaos steed:
Aspiring Champion: /w barded chaos steed, battle standard bearer, and the Banner of the Gods:
Sorcerer of Chaos: /w level 2:
Bray-Shaman of Chaos: /w level 2, braystaff, and 2x dispel scrolls:

Chariot of Chaos:
Chariot of Chaos:
Marauders (19): /w light armor, shields, and full command:
Marauders (19): /w light armor, shields, and full command:
Knights (5): /w musician, and champion:
Warhounds (5):

Beast Herd (7 Gors, 13 Ungors): /w shields, and a foe-render:
Furies (7):
Screamers (3):

Total Points:
Total Models: 70 infantry (including Screamers), and 16 cavalry (I count chariots as two each)

ok so now some questions. I was told that you shouldnt go too banner heavy in 7th because they made it so that when a banner is captured it awards vps to the opponent? if so then why would it be wise to put the bsb and a normal banner in single unit? Also should I spread the dispel scrolls out over both the sorcs instead of 2 on the bray? Finally why is it a bad idea to have the chariots out in front by themselves for the first couple of turns? and not have the marauders come to support them when they get there? will they just get swamped or something? Thanks for all the help so far!

Kerill
19-06-2007, 03:03
Also, thinking about it, you also have a filthy potential tactic againstyour enemy with charging your chariots into 2 of his hammer units, moving the bsb up to 6" (so glad he is mounted now) and them just holding the enemy in place while you move the rest of your units into position. They will still cause some damage in hand to hand and T5, 3+ save and 4 wounds is pretty hard to get through.

Of course this leaves your bsb open to warmachine attacks unless you recall your hounds and put him in with them for the duration.

One cool thing about your army (certainly more so than my usual chaos force) is that you have some situational potentials that are very good if you use your bsb and his banner at the right time and his new horsie helps him to do this.

I wish we could squeeze a few more marauders in (but it will have to do I suppose).

Against undead though you will need to dropt the banner of the gods and go for the battle banner or an exalted mounted champion since your units are all small enough for autobreak.

Spreading the dispel scrolls-yes its a good idea and remember you now have three people to carry them :)

I have to say thanks very much for posting this list its one of the more interesting army lists I've seen on these forums for thinking about things in a slightly different way. Xiexie :)

With that in mind I still feel your knights are missing a standard. Still try it out and see how it plays. If they aren't breaking units easily swap one chaos chariot for a beast one and use the points for a standard for them and try to eke out a few points elsewhere for the battle banner.

If you are finding your magic offence still a little weak upgrade the bsb to tzeentch or swap the chariots and drop 1 dispel scroll for a power familiar.

Still these are situational and depend on your opponent I would say your army is ready to take all comers and the only change would be against the undead. I just can't stop myself thinking about how to tinker with it all the same :)

Remember to move your bsb out of the marauders if an opportunity presents itself for chariot tarpits or if your general and knights look like they are in trouble. Also he can charge out along against enemy fast cavalry if need be since his +1CR will negate their US and he is lilely to get a kill to break them.

Also at the start of the battle against armies with S5, check the enemy characters for greatswords at the start of the battle, might save a lot of woe when the chariots go in. If your opponent doesnt play wysiwyg then ask.

Stezerok
19-06-2007, 04:32
well awesome! I'm definitely glad you like it! I couldnt have designed it without you guys ;) . Now I just need to figure out how to use it well... good armies are wasted on the skill-less :cries: So thanks for all the help, and if you come up with any more brilliant ideas let me know, and I'll post a bat rep here and there as they come by to ask what needs tweaking or if I did something wrong. Thanks again!

Stezerok
27-06-2007, 06:35
well... I played today against my friends high elves... I wonder what you guys think about this...

So the battlefield only has four pieces of terrain on it. In his DP theres this rather large lake to what would be my left (everything will be written about from my perspective on the board) and a large building on my right. In my DP there was a hill on my left, and a group of trees/shrubs...

So my set up had my beast herd center with the two marauder units on either side of it. a chariot was then on each side of those two marauder units, and then it went knights behind warhounds on my left, and screamers and furies on my left closest to the board edge. My sorcs went into their respective mortal units, and my aspiring champion went into the marauder unit to the far right (bad deployment on my part). My sorcs knew, my sorcerer new Creeping Death, and Pit of Shades; the Brayshaman knew Creeping Death, and some other spell that I cant recall... But my lord was useless know Wall of Fire which required a 12+ to cast...

His army was set up with two blocks of spearmen opposite my marauders, his lord and knights to the right of them, and a block of bowman between the two blocks of spearmen. To the left of this, nearby the lake, were two units of bowmen, with 2 bolt throwers on either side. He then had a sorc sitting back near his bolt throwers, and another block of bowman just left of his spearmen.

I took first turn. I marched my units forward 8", then moved my flyers to the edge of the lake. I then marched my knights, warhounds, and chariot on the left side up. I then moved my Chariot to 19" away from his knights, hoping to lure him into a bad charge. I had forgotten to use any magic so I was done.

During his first, he didnt move anything. Including the knights. He then proceeded to fire heavily at the warhounds, and furies. The Furies got smeared, but the warhounds stayed (amazingly) at 2 hounds. He tried to cast some spells, but they were dispelled immediately.

During my second, I charged his bowman with my chariot (killing 6), assaulted his bolt thrower crew with my screamers that had flown over the lake, which massacred them and moved on to the next bolt thrower. moved my warhounds to block his good bolt thrower, and moved my knights to assault his bowman. On the right side of the board, things werent going as well. Some shooting had knocked over a couple of my marauders, and ungors (nothing too bad) I continued to march them forward, and moved my chariot to block a possible flank assault on my marauders with aspiring champion... big mistake. I tried some of my spells but they were blocked...

During his second turn, he moved his Knights around, and assaulted the flank of my chariot (which looked suspiciously over his natural movement rate...), killing the chariot, and flanking my marauders. He then continued firing, to little avail. He finished off the unit of hounds, and put down one of my knights. He tried some more magic, but like before it was countered (I used one of my dispel scrolls for this one though...)

During my third turn, my screamers caused his bolt thrower crew to flee due to fear, leaving two bolt throwers left. My chariot finished off his bowman, along with my knights who had just charged. My knights and chariot now were in the open with a bolt thrower on either side of them. They were facing the opposing board edge, so I would have to maneuver them around to be able to charge something else. My beast herd assaulted the right most unit of his spearman, and the marauders failed their charge range (which was odd seeing as our units started exactly 24" apart in the beginning...) My aspiring champion and marauders werent doing too well against his Knights, they were down to 12 marauders, not including the aspiring champion, but they were stubborn at re-rollable Ld 8, so they werent going anywhere. I didnt have my dex on me at the time but I believe that the Banner of the Gods works at 12" am I correct?

On his third Turn, he smeared my screamers with a bolt thrower, maneuvered his remaining two units of bowman around to face my knights and chariot. He then charged his spearmen into my last marauder unit. From there I had to go, and we couldnt decide who would have won.

All I know is I had my lord and knights along with a chariot between his two bolt throwers, two units of marauders, one of which was badly damaged in CC with his knights (who were no longer str 5 due to the lance rule), and one of which just got charged by his spearmen (which if I remember correctly dont get their fight in ranks on the charge?) and one unit of beast herd fighting with his other unit of spearmen. I think I would have come out on top, considering that if I was right about that banner then none of those three units would have been going anywhere, and my knights and chariot were a turn away from being in CC. Now of course his argument was that his bowman and bolt throwers were about to smear my chariot and knights (which they had been trying to do all game but to no real use), and that his knights would have crushed my marauders, along with his spearmen squads... I dont know. What do you guys think? also how do you think I played? I know it definitely wasnt the most tactically sound playing you've ever seen lol. So let me know how I could have played better.

logan054
27-06-2007, 18:10
Not a bad list, im not sure if a chaos lord is actually needed at 2k, i think id make my marauder units slightly bigger (25 with character) in order for them tio have a greater chance of getting to the enemy with max static combat res, maybe even try and fit a unit of minotaurs in with the points saved.

Nice battle report.