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MarcoPollo
13-06-2007, 04:14
A giant in combat with a lone character equipped with Rune of the True Beast (...monsters cannot direct attacks at the bearer...). This causes a problem with the way that Giants fight. The wording for the Giant in the BoC book pg 29-30. "...To determine what happens, each close combat phase roll a D6 on one of the tables ... Which table you use depends upon the size of the Giants victim."

Yell and Bawl: The enemy automatically beaten and counts as losing the combat by 2

Jump up and Down: Test for a fall; allocate 2d6 st 6 hits like shooting hits.

Pick up: roll a D6 and either 1) put in a bag, 2-3 throw, 4-5 kill outright, 6 pick another.

Swing with club: No test for fall and d6 st6 hits allocated as shooting.

No where in the descriptions of "close combat" does it mention attacks per say. But the rule for RotTB says that a monster may not allocate attacks against the bearer. Since the BoC book states that he is not actually attacking (but fighting a victim). And many of his attacks are allocated like shooting. It would stand to reason that some of the items in the tables could actually be used in combat with a lone character with RotTB.

To me it seems that pick up would be the only one that the Giant could not use. The others have a random (shooting style) factor that percludes them from actually attacking anything with intent.

Thoughts anyone?

DaBrode
13-06-2007, 04:55
I'd say "shooting" is a form of attacking hence blowing your entire theory out of the water.

*2 cents*

Vattendroppe
13-06-2007, 06:31
I go with MarcoPollos style. I think it sounds logcal. He may not direct attacks at the bearer, but the random attacks of the giant isn't really his to direct.

I'm not sure of this, and will gladly read and think of every possible counter argument.

ehlijen
13-06-2007, 07:52
I'd say roll as normal, as if the character didn't have that item. However, as the giant cannot attack the bearer, none of the wounds he causes will affect said character. He could still yell and bawl, but any x dy STR z hits result wouldn't do anything. The giant may not direct attacks against the bearer. If there is no one else there, why would the giant make any attacks then?

DeathlessDraich
13-06-2007, 09:08
1) Some rules may use the phrase "distributed as shooting hits" for some combat hits. This does not make them shooting hits. They are still combat hits. It is the distribution that is similar to shooting.
All Giant attacks qualify as part of close combat.

2) Third time the question of "What constitutes an 'attack' in Warhammer has to be asked?"
Should 'Special attacks' be differentiated from 'attacks' or are they part of the broader category of 'attacks'?
This is important since Giant rules uses 'Special attack' while the TB Rune uses 'attacks'.

3) Does a close combat attack occur when there is no 'attempt' to hit [or actual hit] and wound e.g. Yell & Bawl and Pick Another/Stuff in bag

Other combat which depends on Characteristic tests/Initiative tests or which do not require a roll to hit [e.g. auto hits] still count as close combat elsewhere in the rules.

4) The Rune prevents any Monster from *directing* attacks at the bearer.

So, my opinion would be the Rune does negate all the Giant's attacks.

EvC
13-06-2007, 10:47
I would simply say that Yell and Bawl works (as it's not an attack against a single model but overall in combat), Swing and Jump can hit the unit but discount all hits that might be randomised onto the bearer, and Pick Up can't be directed at him.

ZomboCom
13-06-2007, 16:40
I'd say all the giant's attacks will work as normal. "Allocating Attacks" means directing attacks from your attack characteristic, and rolling to hit etc. Giants don't do this, so are immune.

Masque
13-06-2007, 17:00
I'd say all the giant's attacks will work as normal. "Allocating Attacks" means directing attacks from your attack characteristic, and rolling to hit etc. Giants don't do this, so are immune.

Orcs & Goblins, Page 31, Giant Special Attacks:

"Giants do not attack in the same way as other creatures..."

This would seem to support your argument, however...

"...though they select their victims as normal."

...that would seem to indicate that the only 'normal' thing about how a Giant's attacks work is choosing who they can attack, which is where the Rune of the True Beast comes in.

Llew
13-06-2007, 17:09
Question: Are giants specifically defined as monsters?

If so, from a RAW point the rune would work. I always sort of took it that it applied to more "monstrous" monsters like griffs, dragons, etc.

Masque
13-06-2007, 17:13
Question: Are giants specifically defined as monsters?

Fortunately Giants do make the short list of things that are probably monsters that we know for sure actually are monsters. See page 71 of the BRB.

theunwantedbeing
13-06-2007, 17:15
Yes giants are monsters.Dont start that stupid argument....
The rune just stops the guy from being attacked,so any attack that would otherwise hit him,simply doesnt work.
So if the giant rolls for his attacks something that could hit him,he isnt allowed to make that attack.

Thats how I'de work it out anyway.

yell and bawl...fine
jump up and down...fine so long as the unit is more than 5 models strong
Swing with club.....(see above)
pick up and...the giant cant pick up and..,on the bearer,nor can he hurl(or throw back into combat) a picked up model into the unit if the unit is less than 5 models strong.

Llew
13-06-2007, 17:18
Yes giants are monsters.Dont start that stupid argument....


Calm down, Francis.

I was asking since I'm at work and, oddly enough, don't have the BRB in front of me and, again oddly enough, haven't memorized it.

I was just making sure of the definition, because that was one possible way of clarifying things. In this case, someone provided a simple, clear answer. Incidentally, that wasn't you.

MarcoPollo
13-06-2007, 17:35
I see the Rune of The True Beast working like this. It is a special charm that will not allow the mosnter to attack the bearer due to its power. Given that many of the attacks of a giant are not "premeditated", those attacks should still be able to hurt the bearer of the RotTB.

Jumping up and down is not directed at anything in particular. The giant just jumps up and down. If the bearer happens to get in the way of it, then that is his fate. The giant does not premeditate his attack on the character.

Swing with club against a lone character seems more premeditated. Less random. But, there is only one target there. A pickle indeed.

Yell and Bawl is not directed at the bearer. (If you count his horrible halitotsis then maybe.) So should be allowed.

Pick up and ... is definetly directed at the character, and so should not be allowed.

The way I see it, Pick up is definetly not allowed. Yell and Bawl is definetly allowed, and jump up and down/swing with club are controversial. Probably should roll off or clarify at the beginning of the game.

DaBrode
14-06-2007, 01:00
I'd like to hear Festus chime in on this one.

sds661
14-06-2007, 07:21
Definitely not clear cut this one, but I'm with DD I think.

First, are "Special Attacks" counted as "Attacks" here? Could argue either way but I think yes. Then the first thing the Giant has to do is choose who to direct his special attack against, and the Rune specifically says this can't be the character. This has to happen BEFORE he can roll to see which type of attack applies, so whether or not he rolls Yell and Bawl is academic .... he must choose the target first, which he can't, so there is no roll.

I do not expect we will reach any consensus on this one however.

Omegakai
14-06-2007, 22:49
all the the above is pretty sound. id personally say hes immune to pick up. since thats the only tragetable effect.

Sanjuro
15-06-2007, 13:58
Jumping up and down is not directed at anything in particular. The giant just jumps up and down. If the bearer happens to get in the way of it, then that is his fate.

You're joking, right? That's a good one, I'll have to remember that the next time something accidentally walks in front of a cannon ball. ;)

No but really, that's just fluff. You could just as easily say that a when a dragon attacks it just flails wildly with its tail and legs. If someone accidentally happens to get in the way of it, then that would be his fate.

Or for that matter, a chaos spawn attacking (spawn are still counted as monsters, right? Or are they infantry these days? LOL - that sounds extremely logical, it probably is the case :rolleyes: ).

Da GoBBo
16-06-2007, 08:24
No, he isn't joking. Those attacks are directed at one unit of man- or cavalarysized models, not at individual models. Those attacks are ditributed (not directed) as shooting hits, so if a unit is small enough, those attacks could definitly hit the character.

sds661: The giant chooses a modeltype to attack, not a specific model. Then he rolls on the attacktable to see what he wants to do. The pick up and... is the only attack which is actually directed at this modeltype, so it's the only attack which is affected.

Masque
16-06-2007, 09:30
If a Giant is in base contact with more than one enemy unit he picks which one to fight against before you roll to see what kind of attack he makes. If one of the units he's in base contact with is a lone character with the Rune of the True Beast it really seems like the Giant shouldn't be able to choose that unit as his victim. If the lone character is the only unit the Giant is touching (like in the original question) then it really seems like the Giant shouldn't be able to roll on his special attack chart at all.

DeathlessDraich
16-06-2007, 09:48
sds661: To quote Jordan as she spoke to her bra "Thanks for the support" :p


sds661: The giant chooses a modeltype to attack, not a specific model. Then he rolls on the attacktable to see what he wants to do. The pick up and... is the only attack which is actually directed at this modeltype, so it's the only attack which is affected.

Not quite.

We've had discussions on Giant rules so many times. The rules are poorly written and certainly subject to interpretation. Only mutual agreement by players is the best solution.
Referring to the original question -
a) All results from the 2 tables for the Giant are 'attacks' or 'Special attacks' according to the Giant rules - It has the heading Giant 'Special Attacks'! :D
b) it's simply a matter of whether players want to include 'Special Attacks' as a category of 'attacks'. It is very reasonable to do so

Da Gobbo: Brief summary of Giant rule problems:

**Giant rules states that the Giant "selects his victims as normal" followed by "when fighting characters riding monsters, [the Giant] decides whether to *attack* the rider or mount as normal".
and finally after the above rules comes "use the table for the target size".

Bad Rule 1: The phrase "as normal" occurs twice for the process of selecting which model the Giant directs its attacks.

Therefore the Giant must select either the RnF models, champion or character in base contact to fight in close combat.

Bad Rule 2: The table is selected *after* the Giant decides which model to direct its attacks.

Problem 1: If the Giant selects RnF models of a unit:
a) Yell & Bawl - In a multiple combats, if the Giant strikes first, can other enemy units strike back? Can 2nd or 3rd ranked Spearmen strike back?
b) Pick Another - What happens if there are no more RnF models to Pick?

Problem 2: If the Giant selects a character/champion:
a) Pick another - is impossible!
b) Shooting hits in Jump up and down and Thump are redundant and only the selected model suffers wounds.

T10
16-06-2007, 10:15
You guys have obviously given this a lot of thought, so I won't try to pick apart your arguments. Here's my position, though.

If a lone wyvern is fighting the character then it will have to direct it's attacks against other models. If no other models are present in the combat then the wyvern makes no attacks.

Replacing the Wyvern with a Giant, it seems quite reasonable that the Giant makes no attack when fighting the lone character.

I doubt anyone in our local group will have any problem with this. We rarely see the Rune of the True Beast; Giants - not so rarely. :)

-T10

Sanjuro
16-06-2007, 11:54
Replacing the Wyvern with a Giant, it seems quite reasonable that the Giant makes no attack when fighting the lone character.

Yes, thank you. This is what I am talking about.

Vattendroppe
16-06-2007, 12:06
Replacing the Wyvern with a Giant, it seems quite reasonable that the Giant makes no attack when fighting the lone character.

That actually seems quite reasonable... Not funny to get charged by a character with that rune if you're agiant then.

Sanjuro
16-06-2007, 14:06
That actually seems quite reasonable... Not funny to get charged by a character with that rune if you're agiant then.

I think that's more or less the point of the item. :)

Vattendroppe
16-06-2007, 14:33
I think that's more or less the point of the item. :)

In that case it would be a quite underestimated item, I've never seen it in play! Imagine that on a slayer!

Angelwing
16-06-2007, 14:39
In that case it would be a quite underestimated item, I've never seen it in play! Imagine that on a slayer!

but hardly true to the background of slayers!

On topic: I'd say the character in question is immune to the giants attacks. However, as always with such things, discuss with your opponent beforehand.

Da GoBBo
17-06-2007, 08:19
Referring to the original question -
a) All results from the 2 tables for the Giant are 'attacks' or 'Special attacks' according to the Giant rules - It has the heading Giant 'Special Attacks'! :D
b) it's simply a matter of whether players want to include 'Special Attacks' as a category of 'attacks'. It is very reasonable to do so

Yes, I agree very much so, it doesn't really matter though IMO. The only thing the item does is disallowing monsters from directing attacks at the wielder. It doesn't protect him from harm.
In game-terms, I'd say directing means you pick the wielder as your target and perform your attacks. The only attack that really does this though is the "pick up and...", the "thump with club" and the "headbutt" attack. All the other attacks are directed at (parts of) units and are distributed afterwards. If a unit is small enough, I'd say the character can be hit.

Other than that, the initial question asked about a single character, I overread that. I agree the giant can't perform any attacks at the character while bein a unit on its own.


**Giant rules states that the Giant "selects his victims as normal" followed by "when fighting characters riding monsters, [the Giant] decides whether to *attack* the rider or mount as normal".
and finally after the above rules comes "use the table for the target size".

Ye, but the only real choice you get to make is monstersized or not. For instance, if a giant fights a unit of warriors with the itembearer, and a dragon with another fighty character (don't know where he came from), the giant chooses to attack the unit, the dragon or the rider. He can't opt to attack the wielder at all (with or without that item), unless he chooses to attack the unit and rolls a "pick up and..." result.


Problem 1: If the Giant selects RnF models of a unit:
a) Yell & Bawl - In a multiple combats, if the Giant strikes first, can other enemy units strike back? Can 2nd or 3rd ranked Spearmen strike back?
b) Pick Another - What happens if there are no more RnF models to Pick?

a. I don't why this pops up :), but when the giant rolls yell and bawl, I say the combat ends there and than. It's seems extremly silly to me to assume a second rank can keep on fighting. The giant towers over the entire unit and the second rank is just as close to his yelling and bawling as the first ranks. I also say this attack affects multiple units. I don't know if I have firm rules to back it up though.

b. the giant picks the champ, or any character without that rune.


Problem 2: If the Giant selects a character/champion:
a) Pick another - is impossible!


a. any man or cavalrysized model can be picked (onless protected by special rules of course).

MarcoPollo
18-06-2007, 18:04
The only thing the item does is disallowing monsters from directing attacks at the wielder. It doesn't protect him from harm.


I agree with this interpretation. Even if the giant is facing the item bearer alone.

On a similar note, what would happen against a stegadon with impact hits against a lone item bearer?

I think you would calculate the impact hits as they are not attacks that are directed but distributed like shooting. His normal attacks could not work against him, but the skinks on top could.

Edit--You could also have some issues with, impact hits from a stegadon, or breath weapon attacks from a dragon, perhaps a lone monster reaction. I'm sure there is probably a few more things that would cause a problem with this item.

MarcoPollo
21-06-2007, 17:30
I am really wondering what you all think about Rune of the True Beast and Impact hits (steggadon) and Breath Weapon (Dragons etc) on a lone character.

I realize that this item can really become quite messy with the definition of "attacks" or "directed attacks".

DeathlessDraich
21-06-2007, 18:26
It's open to interpretation.
Some players might interpret the 'attacks' mentioned in the Rune OTB as close combat attacks only and therefore the Rune will not affect Impact hits, shooting*, breath weapons etc.

1) There is one supporting phrase in the Rune's rules to support this - "direct attacks".
Only close combat attacks may be 'directed'. Shooting and magic missiles are 'targeted'.

** I haven't checked but I think the Hellcannon qualifies as a monster who shoots.

2) On the other hand 'attacks' could be easily interpreted as all-encompassing and might include shooting attacks and impact hits as well.

ZomboCom
23-06-2007, 09:15
To me, "attacks" in this case seems to refer to normal close combat attacks allocated in the matter of described in the BSB. It certainly doesn't apply to shooting or impact hits, and I don't think it applies to creatures that don't use their attacks characteristic, like giants.

Chiron
23-06-2007, 09:30
I'd say that as with Vambraces of the Sun from TK, the item does not affect the giants special attacks, although that items considerate enough to specifically state it

T10
23-06-2007, 11:38
I'd be inclined to interpret the Rune of the True Beast as affecting only monsters in contact with the bearer. After all, if the Rune is powerful enough to dissuade a Dragon from breathing fire on the character it would certainly be powerful enough to keep the monster from charging... :)

-T10