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adivito
13-06-2007, 19:10
It seems to be common amongst the chaos players here to prefer more ungors than gors in a beastherd, and the reasoning is being shot at. Now this can create a dilemma.
The reason there are more ungors than gors is that the unit is banking on being shot at. However they are skirmishers, they are also movement 5 and bray shamans have access to movement spells and the staff of darkoth, giving 2 turns TOPS of shooting at the herd. But beast herds are only effective in combat. Having less gors makes the unit less effective in combat if they stick around for more than one round of casualties and nobody breakes, this would make a smart opponent turn fire to something a little more potent than a beast herd mainly comprised of weak HTH fighters such as ungors.
Example ---- The plan is that the unit will be shot at over the course of a few turns, say 5 shooting casualties. If the remaining unit of 8 gors and 7 ungors gets into a combat, takes 5 caualties and survives to fight in another combat the herd that is left in this instance, although beat up, is not a particularly good option anymore. This leaves 3 gors and 7 ungors, whereas if the ratios were flipped for the unit to start, there would be 7 gors and 3 ungors, a much better small combat unit.
I agree that beast herds are a valuable and versatile unit, skirmishers that can gain rank bonus are brutal. But they are a close combat unit and the best choice for close combat is gors. This being said, beast herds are usually not the most powerful unit in the army, somewhere around 150 points for 20 models. If they are shot at then consider it a benefit that your other units are safe. But if they are to be used at screens and limited to a single combats worth of punishment then perhaps i have askewed their purpose as a close combat unit. Any thoughts?

theunwantedbeing
13-06-2007, 22:39
Beast herds = screens.

All that needs to be said really.

Kerill
13-06-2007, 23:16
I don't think people choose ungors because of shooting, but because they are much cheaper for the US. Also it means if charged you will get more attacks from ungors with spears (less important really but useful). Also in protracted combats you will get more spears in the second round. Finally in most combats where the herd gets the charge or against infantry they will suffer few casualties. E.g against elves/humans if charges they will lose 1.25 models, if they get the charge then less than 1. Thus for a herd to be useful for mosy of the game in 2-3 combat phases they just need an extra 2 or 3 above and beyond the normal frontage.

If charged by knights or something uber then maybe most of the Gors will croak leaving you little combat power but frankly if that happens you are very likely running from the battlefield anyway.

Big herds will have more Gor insurance and small herds aren't really there for combat anyway except against very weak enemies.

sulla
14-06-2007, 04:59
In my experience, 2:1 ungor to gor ratio works well. It lets you get far more troops in the unit which reduces the amount of panic tests from shooting you need, it give you more ranks and hopefully outnumber in cc and, ike horses, my ungors usually outperform my gors in combat.

The above only applies for my combat units with one or more characters in them. For throwaway flankers or artillery ambushers, minimum sized units of 5 and 5 with full command are all I use.

Chicago Slim
14-06-2007, 15:54
I pile a bunch of ungors into herds not because I'm expecting them to be shot at, but because I want to make sure I get 4 points of static CR (standard, numbers and two ranks).

Because of the way Skirmishers line up, it's not uncommon to be 6, 7 or even 8 models wide. In order to get full rank bonuses at 8 wide, you need at least 21 models in the Herd (even at 5 wide, you need 15 models minimum, and at that point, you probably don't have numbers).

Like Sulla, I tend to use Herds in two very different roles: minimum size units to hunt artillery, march-block, and take table quarters, and large (25+ model) units to fight with. For those, I'll bring 8 gors and 17+ ungors, with full command-- That's about 150 points, for 25 models that have pretty good fighters up front, and tremendous mobility. The fact that the shooting doesn't hurt the better fighters is just gravy (because, really, Gors aren't THAT much better than Ungors).

sulla
14-06-2007, 20:24
I don't take the champion in the big units because he is so expensive and I always have a couple of characters in there anyway.

But I always use full command in the little ambushers because it makes beating artillery crews and other small units almost a certainty.

MarcoPollo
15-06-2007, 04:22
If you have a super herd with alot of characters, then you don't need the champion (if one of your characters is tooled up to fight). This is 20 pts that can be used in other ways -- say the mutant upgrade on your giant.

I would only recomend using more gors if you expected to leave the unit on its own. Then the extra staying power with T4 can help.

As for screens, min out the cost. If ambushing a min unit, take the upgrade of champion for the extra ld.

Kerill
15-06-2007, 04:46
I would actually disagree with marco pollo and sulla on the champion thing if its an all comers army. First foe renders add quite a lot to the hitting power of the unit. I worked out the stats back in the day but a beastherd needs one to draw win combats. Even with a herd with characters it at least gives you the option to challenge against empire (speculum) or tooled lords on beasties. The +1LD is wasted mind but still a worthwhile investment.

sulla
15-06-2007, 05:33
I would actually disagree with marco pollo and sulla on the champion thing if its an all comers army. First foe renders add quite a lot to the hitting power of the unit. I worked out the stats back in the day but a beastherd needs one to draw win combats. Even with a herd with characters it at least gives you the option to challenge against empire (speculum) or tooled lords on beasties. The +1LD is wasted mind but still a worthwhile investment.

? it's wasted but a worthwhile investment? I'm pretty sure I won't be hiring you as my business advisor... ;) :angel:

Not sure what maths model you threw at the herd to prove that it needed a champ to win or draw either. What are you fighting?

Kerill
15-06-2007, 07:51
Ws 3/4 T3/4 5+/4+ save infantry.

Basically because they will be at least 1 behing in CR herds need to kill more. Foe renders will kill 0.88 models. A normal Gor will only kill 0.25, therefore foe renders make a big difference. They are an expensive champion (similar champions cost about 10-12 points) but they not only get +1 attack but also +1S which is pretty good too. Worth 10 or 15 points. The 5 points for leadership is probably wasted but since they MIGHT be needed for challenges or if you move your other character/s out of the unit or they get killed. Like I said I think its a worthwhile overall investment.

Whistler
18-06-2007, 10:36
Try a 9/11 Beast herd with BSB and Vitriolic totem...You'll see :D Maybe make them ambush,but that's something i'll try saturday.And about the foerender,i think that he's a must for herds.

MarcoPollo
19-06-2007, 15:36
The vitriolic totem is quite good in a beastherd. You have to take the BSB to do that, but with all those attacks that beastherds + characters can generate, you can really punish alot of units. Plus you get the bonus of a BSB and can protect him well with the "Mob Rule" effect of skirmishers.