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savage_&_proud_of_it
14-06-2007, 06:52
we are thinking about making some wrestling rules for inquisitor, finishers, chairs, tables. the works. (but no guns, unlesss you can smuggle them in...)

does any long time inquisitor player have any ideas how we could do this.

thanks for any help



p.s

should we convert our own models using inquisitor models or use wwe action figures...?

thanks again

Sarison
14-06-2007, 07:42
while i am against this idea entirely, the concept of different weapons doing different damages, strikes my fancy. according to the laws of Physics, Marines should not be able to hideous amounts of damage with throwing stars, yet they consistantly can. any ideas?

on a more related note, does any one have stories to tell about pit fights in Inquisitor (the one from the Dan Abnett Eisenhorn series, Malleus, comes to mind)?

savage_&_proud_of_it
14-06-2007, 16:46
we were thinking about stuff like choosing what moves you can do like stone cold stunner etc...? (these would count as one action)

we are going to use inquisitor models, any conversion ideas would be great

Kegluneq
15-06-2007, 00:26
Sergeant Stone kicking the crap out of Cherubael springs to mind, for some reason.

A little part of me dies when it thinks of a puritan Inquisitor reading the Rites of Damnation to a heretic then throwing him off a ladder through a table. :(

savage_&_proud_of_it
15-06-2007, 08:08
we were not going to use inquisitors like sergeant stone ect. but instead make our own wrestlers of the 41st millenium.

the idea is that they are a form of entertainment in the hive cities...

Kegluneq
15-06-2007, 08:20
It's a particularly lame hive city that favours oiled choreographed wrestling over actually brutal pit fighting.

Sabbad
15-06-2007, 09:03
The Inqusitor rulebook has rules for unarmed attacks and improvised weapons - at a pinch you can get by using these.

Bear in mind that the damage values for these "weapons" are exceptionally low to prevent Heroes of the Imperium getting killed glass bottles and such like. To make things more brutal, you might want to consider doubling or trippling the damage values of the weapons following armour modification.

Adding extra depth ain't too difficult - it's just a matter of writing statlines for separate moves and items. So perhaps a kick has a higher reach than a punch, but a punch gets a big bonus on the location injury chart (I just can't imagine punching someone in the leg somehow). One of the characters in our regular Inquisitor campaigns has the Headbutt skill - it's similar to the rules for Horns in the Alien Bounty Hunter article, except if he fails a toughness test he stuns himself for a turn as well.

Good luck.

Kegluneq
15-06-2007, 10:40
Given that four or five unarmed attacks to the head could potentially kill a person completely, I don't see how they're underpowered at all. If you proxy in weapon rules for unarmed attacks (punch counts as knife, kick counts as hammer, martial artist counts as blade master) and don't allow any armour, you should be able to make a decent game of it. The damage table might have to be changed though.

Inquisitor Maul
15-06-2007, 16:26
while i am against this idea entirely, the concept of different weapons doing different damages, strikes my fancy. according to the laws of Physics, Marines should not be able to hideous amounts of damage with throwing stars, yet they consistantly can. any ideas?

on a more related note, does any one have stories to tell about pit fights in Inquisitor (the one from the Dan Abnett Eisenhorn series, Malleus, comes to mind)?


Why shouldn't Marines cause more damage with a throwing star then a normal human? Marines are after all something like 6-7 times stronger then a normal human :eyebrows:

Sabbad
15-06-2007, 16:31
Well, the location chart for the head would have to be changed. It's rare for someone to fall over and roll around in pain for half a minute after being punched once in the face.

Inquisitor Maul
15-06-2007, 17:12
Well, the location chart for the head would have to be changed. It's rare for someone to fall over and roll around in pain for half a minute after being punched once in the face.

But it ain't uncommon for someone to recoil and being generally disoriented after a strong blow to the face. And that can cost you a good many seconds just trying to regain your senses.

savage_&_proud_of_it
15-06-2007, 17:56
thanks for all the help everyone it will be really usefull

Sarison
15-06-2007, 18:23
Why shouldn't Marines cause more damage with a throwing star then a normal human? Marines are after all something like 6-7 times stronger then a normal human :eyebrows:

because of those damned inconvient laws of physics.

given the damage is based on the kinetic enegry that impacts you from object, the damage would be based on the equation E=1/2 M V^2. now, with any mathematical skills you can figure out that the most influencial part of this equation is the Velocity part, so the damage would be higher for people with higher throwing speeds. i think we can pretty much assume that a space marine cannot throw a ninja star 5 times faster than a normal human. it would actually be harder for a space marine because he is encased in power armour which he would have to accelerate along with the ninja star. in short, the damage method breaks down when the object has less mass than your arm.

now if a marine were to throw a piano at a heretic, then he would do more damage because he would throw it like a human would throw a fastball. but somehow, as long as he didnt plan it, it would still do the same damage as a ninja star....

Sabbad
15-06-2007, 20:16
But it ain't uncommon for someone to recoil and being generally disoriented after a strong blow to the face. And that can cost you a good many seconds just trying to regain your senses.


The falling over bit of my quote was the important part.

Besides, whilst being punched might disorientate you, being stunned for a minimum of one turn (which is what? 7 or 8 seconds?) seems a little extreme for a punch that does the minimum amount of possible damage.

I don't really have a problem with the Inquisitor combat system generally, but it clearly wasn't designed for wrestling games.

inq.serge
15-06-2007, 21:04
Why shouldn't Marines cause more damage with a throwing star then a normal human? Marines are after all something like 6-7 times stronger then a normal human :eyebrows:

Well, a wooden plank thrown at a corrugated steel wall can dent it, at best.
A wooden plank thrown by a tornado at a corrugated steel wall pierces it.

So Inq.Mauls correct. It's physically possible for a marine to do that damage with a throwing star. It's just strange that a bolter does less damage.

I would prefer rules for real wrestling (Greco-roman and BJJ and SAMBO and Vale Tudo and MMA style). I would want to see rules for locks and chokes and armbars and legbars and Cheking oils triangles and such. Also for positions like mount and guard and turtle and sidemount and knee-on-belly (Solar Plexus to be more correct).

I don't want to see like 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000000000 different rules, just guidelines like:
* on top with opponent on back.
* on top with opponent on belly.
* in opponents guard.
* vice versa.
* bars and some locks(with some differences depending on which limb you use)
*choke with arm(s).
*choke with leg(s).

That's ~6 rules, which is enough. The rest is up for your imagination. Well, how the models walk and talk and shoot is up to your imagination, this models aren't moving by themselves. So follow the guidelines and imagine how it looks.

Just like shooting. You have some few rules on how long you aim and ~3 stances (hipshooting, near chest and near head) and not on how you are holding it, like +/- something if you hold your pistol at straight arm forward while holding your pistol as if its lying on its side (A la Cool Shaft-style cops).

If someone makes rules for that, he doesn't deserve his place in the genepool.

Sarison
16-06-2007, 08:05
[QUOTE=inq.serge;1656566]Well, a wooden plank thrown at a corrugated steel wall can dent it, at best.
A wooden plank thrown by a tornado at a corrugated steel wall pierces it.

So Inq.Mauls correct. It's physically possible for a marine to do that damage with a throwing star. It's just strange that a bolter does less damage.
QUOTE]

no, hes still wrong, because a space marine does not through a object with the same velocity as a tornado. his velocity is limited by the velocity at which his arm can move. this is the same reason that i would like to bash your skull in with a hammer that has F=MA written on it and not a piece of tissue paper. if i could apply all the energy to tissue paper that i can to a hammer, i my roomamte would be dead and i never would be charged with assualt with a deadly weapon.

if you dont believe me, ask a carpender why they dont use the biggest, beefiest hammer they can find, and then ask him why they dont use the lightest, fastest hammer they can find.

now, assuming that a space marine is a god and can throw whatever object with whatever speed he wishes, pick any number from 1 to 300,000,000 m/s and realize that the throwing star is always thrown with less kinetic energy than a two by four.

savage_&_proud_of_it
16-06-2007, 08:28
so instead of the lame holds like in wwe today we would use stuff like branding irons, tables, ladders, chairs, glass bottles and many more. (all of which were used in ECW about ten years ago)

a pit fight would be quite cool when thinking about it and would probably be easier to do using the inquisitor rules.

thanks for all the help and keep the posts coming...

inq.serge
16-06-2007, 10:31
To Sarison

Since V is ^2 and M is not, a marine needs to throw a shuriken 2.45 times faster then a human to make it hit 6 times harder. Which marines actually does.

2.45 times faster isn't that much for a marine, only because they're bigger, taller and stronger doesn't mean they're slower, remember, it's said that marines can rip of your head and turn it towards you so fast that you can see your body die.

EDIT: To Sarison. Due to the lack of capital letters and poor spelling, I actually lost 3 SG pts while reading your post. :p :D

Havock
16-06-2007, 18:15
A space marine in power armor piledriving a heretic into a concrete floor.

GW should have thought of it themselves, like a 40k bloodbowl thing.

Sabbad
17-06-2007, 09:55
Yay, another "Space Marines are teh uber!!11one!!" game, just what we need...

Unclejo
17-06-2007, 10:18
Yay, another "Space Marines are teh uber!!11one!!" game, just what we need...

But Space Marines are "teh uber" when compared to normal Humans. Anyone who thinks otherwise really hasn't paid much attention to the 40k Background. And I can't recall any other games where Space Marines are accurately portrayed to the Background.

Sabbad
17-06-2007, 10:56
I'm not denying that Space Marines are stronger faster smarter braver and better than everyone else. I just wouldn't want another game based on showing off how good they are.

Unclejo
17-06-2007, 11:11
I'm not denying that Space Marines are stronger faster smarter braver and better than everyone else. I just wouldn't want another game based on showing off how good they are.

But there isn't one at the moment, Space Marines in 40k are much weaker than they should be. Inquisitor gets it fairly right, an average Space Marine tears through a group of above average humans, because he can quite literally crush them with his bare hands, and his Power Armour makes him even stronger.

If logically following the 40k background is "showing off", I can't really understand why you'd choose to play it. Psyhically, Space Marines don't need to show off, they're better than us. Bring morality into it and things change a great deal, but you can't stat morality and religous fanaticism, theyre aspects for the player to bring out.

If, in an Inquisitor game, your GM or fellow players brings out a Space Marine and "pew pews" everyone for no apparent reason, its a failing of the GM and players, not the system. Inquisitor is a "narrative" system, it is not big scale Necromunda, it is not "balanced" in any real way. You do not get equal "points" to a Space Marine.

If you don't like this, don't include Space Marines.

inq.serge
17-06-2007, 12:43
it is not "balanced" in any real way.

Inq is not balanced in any way at all! (And the RR pts system is useless)
Inq and balance does not fit.

The only Balance in Inq are passed and failed Initiative checks.

Unclejo
17-06-2007, 13:07
Inq is not balanced in any way at all! (And the RR pts system is useless)
Inq and balance does not fit.

The only Balance in Inq are passed and failed Initiative checks.

Well, theres the GM and other players telling you where to go, but you already got my point;)

inq.serge
17-06-2007, 15:49
Well, theres the GM and other players telling you where to go, but you already got my point;)

But that's not real balance a la point system but a little better fun-system.:)

savage_&_proud_of_it
17-06-2007, 20:20
im not using space marines and the like but making normal citizens of a hive city who fight for a living not in the army but in a dingy back alley fight club
does anyone have any modelling ideas

inq.serge
17-06-2007, 20:43
Talon.

And Sargent Stone (The barbarian kid)

Sarison
18-06-2007, 05:20
Serge:

This makes so much sense, you lost sagacity points, thats why you don't get it.

You must be right, marines should get an instant +19 damage by throwing something at you, but for some reason, in His almighty wisodm, the Emperor has seen fit that his most elite sldiers actually diminish thier killing potenial by resorting to firearms rather than just throwing rocks at heretics. every single other shooting wepon in the game most have the wrong damage values assigned to it, not the most Holy and pure device such as the ninja star. Which, to my knowledge, has never been utilized by anything less than the most desperate or underprepared of Marines.

and how do you back up the claim that a marine's throw is 6 times as powerful as a humans?

inq.serge
18-06-2007, 14:11
Ehmm, they are 6-7 times stronger, maybe?

Kegluneq
18-06-2007, 15:06
Which is meaningless unless they were also 6-7 times faster, which is physically unlikely (I know, they're Marines, but still).

inq.serge
18-06-2007, 15:31
They don't have to be 6-7 times faster, only 2.45 times faster. Sure, I think that it seems silly that a bolter does less damage, but bolters are shadowed down in inq.

And don't forget that a throwing star isn't supposed to crush your skull as a mace or blow your body into pieces like a bolter shot, but to make a swift slash that slices of an arm. And that's what they do very well when marines throw them.

However, can we get back on topic?
I want wrestling-style MMA/Grappling rules now.

savage_&_proud_of_it
19-06-2007, 17:04
thankyou inq. serge for stopping all this stuff about space marines with throwing stars.

can we please try and get on to the subject

Kegluneq
19-06-2007, 17:59
Putting WWF (well, whatever it is now) rules in would be slightly silly in a truly competitive game, unless you agreed beforehand who would win.

Obviously, it would be pretty much up to you what skills you would use in a move, but the various CC abilities in Inquisitor already should work fine (you can dodge, 'parry', counter attack, feint and so forth). For grabs, throws etc, I'd suggest rolling for strength tests and toughness tests along with WS and so on.

Being dropped on your head from a height as seems to happen a lot in wrestlingwould be catastrophic in real life and Inq terms, so perhaps you should change damage tables to be rather more forgiving in this section. Perhaps injury totals could be used as a modifier for toughness tests as the game progresses, making countouts more likely as the game progresses?

Havock
21-06-2007, 15:17
Never played the smackdown series on PS2, did you?

Maybe it's not plot driven in the 40st millenium, just a real contest with ridiculous costumes and stuff :p

Sarison
22-06-2007, 20:55
i once came up with a system of advanced skills, things that characters specialized in. most characters, when trying to decifier a code, would use their Sagacity, and they would take a penalty or based on the difficulty of the code. the skill system allowed people to gain +20 to sagacity when breaking codes, but it would not help them when trying to deactivate a crane servitor. this is based on the *dont hurt me* skill system from AD&D, specifically Balbur's Gate II. or at least what i could figure out about the skills system in Baldur's Gate. but alas, one malfunctioning operating system and one reformat later, the rules are no more. Note: these rules were only to be used with charcaters that people used regularly, you could not give these skills to characters you were playign for the first time, and especially not for one-off games. it slows the game down to much. if you cant remember them on your list, you can't use them.

what this means to you: people with the unarmed combat skill can use thier fists to fight and get bonuses to WS and location roles (+30 instead of +20).

but i think that a very important point is being missed in this discussion. while i know how to speak to my comrades in another language that others dont understand, my inquisitor might not. and just as i cant use my mind to make Serge 20 times smarter and understand what im trying to teach him, my inquisitor might be able to do that. the specific actions that our characters preform need not be explained, just the results interpreted. if i land a unarmed attack on my opponent's head, it doesnt matter if i smashed his nose, boxed his ears, broke his jaw or gave him a noogie, all that matters is that he got stunned for D6 turns and toke a few points of damage. the specific details need not be included in the Inquisitor rules, you can make them up yourself.