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Fire Mountain
17-06-2007, 12:20
After reading thrugh the rules for the Redemptionists, I got a bit inspired.
So, I started making a list. After comparing the Crusade with the Mob, I founf that the Mob seemed alot more fun (And it can easily be made into a Crusade later).
You will have to excuse the way i'm writing the list as I'm not to familliar with how you write Necromunda lists like this (I use Excel with a premade rooster).

The Legion of the Tainted Flame

Crusader with Shotgun,Man-Stoppers,Exterminator: 90
Crusader with Shotgun,Man-Stoppers,Exterminator: 90
Crusader with Shotgun,Man-Stoppers,Exterminator: 90
Crusader with Shotgun,Man-Stoppers,Exterminator: 90
Crusader with Shotgun,Man-Stoppers,Exterminator: 90
Crusader with Autogun: 70
Crusader with Autogun: 70
Devotee with Autopistol and Maul: 50
Devotee with Autopistol and Maul: 50
Devotee with Autopistol and Maul: 50
Devotee with Autopistol and Maul: 50
Devotee with Autopistol and Maul: 50
Devotee with Chain: 35
Devotee with Chain: 35
Devotee with Second Knife: 30
Devotee with Second Knife: 30
Devotee with Second Knife: 30

1000 credits
17 (!!!) Members.

Now, you might wonder:
Why so many Devotees with crapy equipment?
Well, they all fill a purpose.
Soaking fire and hacking away in CC.
A simple Devote with a second knife for 30creds will most of the time kick a Basic-Weapon armed Gangers *** in CC. And for maybe a third of their cost.
And then pile that together with the fact that most of the time, he will be outnumbered 2-1.

The force will be split into groups. Five groups including:
Shotgun armed Crusader,
Autopistol and Maul armed Devotee,
and a Chain/Second Knife armed Devotee.

The cheap Devotee taking the front and forcing the enemy to shot him.
When in range the Devotee with Autopistol will Unload on the enemy.
And during all this the Crusader will blast away, and when in range, Exterminate.

As you will have noticed, there will be two Crusaders left over.
Well, what's a gang without the "Sniper" element? ;) .
They'll be hanging around in the back, taking shots at everything presenting itself (kinda like everything else :rolleyes: ).

As the gang progresses, the Crusaders will be given CC weapons (And some of them 2 Autopistols, as someone will get Gunfighter ;) ).
The Devotees with Autopistol and Maul have their basic equipment already and the other Devotees will be aiming for 2 Mauls or simillar.
Devotees becoming Crusaders will be given the equipment fitting for them (Shotgun combo or Autopistols).

The major drawback with this gang is the progressing.
The skills is nothing to worry about, they won't get alot, but that just means that their stats will become better. But that's just how they work.

The BIG drawback is the equipment. But this can be fixed by simply including a Priest in the mix (Wich can be added later).

Painting and modelling will come later.

Thoughts?

Daredhnu
17-06-2007, 12:42
don't you need a priest or however they call the leader types of the redemption?

besides outlanders are especially well suited to small groups cause you need to scavage for food and stuff like that so you need to spend as little money on that as possible i think.

Fire Mountain
17-06-2007, 13:18
No, you don't need a priest.
You need a Priest if you want to include Deacons (The Heavies of the Redemption). If you include a Priest then the gang is a Crusade and use the Ld of the Priest. If you don't include a Priest, the gang is a Mob, and you use some special rules for bottle tests and ratio of Crusaders and Devotees.

And I don't need to scavange for food, as the Redemption are not Outlaws.
Only if someone reports me might I become an Outlaw.

Here's a question though.
If i get Outlawed, do I still collect income in the Redemptionists Mob way (1D3x Number of members) or do I have to scavange as an Outlaw?.
This is something they don't mention in the FAQ.

Major_Gilbear
17-06-2007, 13:19
Hmm, this is why I think the new rules are crappy. This is possibly even more cheesy than the original Redemptionist gangs...

@Daredhnu:
Each gang member in an Outlaw gang usually forages for D6 creds. The more gangers, the more rolls, so it even out on that score. Plus, any income gained goes straight into your stash without being washed through an Income Table. That makes huge Outlaw gangs viable, provided you can afford to buy and equip the gang members in the first place.

Tomothy
17-06-2007, 14:01
After reading thrugh the rules for the Redemptionists, I got a bit inspired.
So, I started making a list. After comparing the Crusade with the Mob, I founf that the Mob seemed alot more fun (And it can easily be made into a Crusade later).
You will have to excuse the way i'm writing the list as I'm not to familliar with how you write Necromunda lists like this (I use Excel with a premade rooster)

Now, you might wonder:
Why so many Devotees with crapy equipment?
Well, they all fill a purpose.
Soaking fire and hacking away in CC.
Looks like you're playing 40k not necromunda.


Painting and modelling will come later.

Thoughts?
Well, it looks kind of boring to me. There's no variation in the gangers, so no individuality. You seem to be missing the point of necromunda. As a player, you would only outnumber my gang by 5. You would need to run a gauntlet of sustained fire and overwatch without much long range to back you up (shotguns really don't count). Then, when you do start to get close, i'd bottle. With that many gang members you'll be clocking up xp and won't be able to choose scenarios that often (which means you'll run into a lot of shoot outs where those double knife guys will be a great help). Also, thats a lot of money and time spent on what is essentially a one trick wonder gang.

Fire Mountain
17-06-2007, 14:30
Major Gillbear:
It might be seen abit cheesy by some. But I feel that this is just onw way to counter all thoose Shooting,Stealth and Techno gangs just sitting on Overwatch the whole game.

And also, it's not that cheesy when you give it some consideration. Remember that everyone has to test psychology on their own Ld, wich can make a downed friend within 2" a serius problem. With this amount of members, they will be tightly packed and will therefore also be more sensitive to Grenades,Flamers,Heavy Plasmaguns etc.
And think about the amount of exp the enemy can get from picking of Devotee Shields.

Also noticed something. This gang will be the underdog in the first games as they only have 7 exp rolls ^^.

Also, the further you get into the game, the worse the gang will get.
Serius wounds will start stacking up on the Devotees, and soon i'll have a limping line if I don't play my cards right (or if my opponent does...).

When the enemy starts packing Plasma Guns in droves and Dual-Boltpistol wielding monsters. I'll be stuck with the same equipment as I have in the begining (If I don't save pts for something like 4-5 games just to buy a Priest. But in that time, the enemy will get a head-start on equipment).

My only plan on this gang is just to very big. I don't have alot of other things to do.

Tomothy:
Never played 40k ^^.

And at the variation part, that is where you are wrong (Looks-wise atleast. But Hey, what can you do with a Redemption Mob?.
I mean, look at their equipment options ^^.).
By making a Chaos Gang, it opens ALOT of windows for conversions etc.
I'm planing on using all manor of models to make it look as different as possible. Not making ONE model look like the next (And that IS a challange with this amount of models).

And moneywise:
This is simply something I kinda felt like doing. And with a lot of bits left over, I thought "What the hell!. I'm not using theese for anything else".
For instance I have some Beastmen lying around that i'm not going to use for anything. And they gave me some ideas.
Mix in some normal Catachans,Cadians etc. Sculpt some ragged robes and minor mutations and voilá!. A band of Chaos Worshipers.
And variations come for me the further you get into a campaign
(Altought it will be a problem with a Redemptionist Mob...).

And you'r right, the Shootouts for example, will be a problem.
But this is a second gang ( I've already got a serious 9-grot gang to play with) that I want to do just to be able to do something COMPLETELY different.
I mean, how many of you have played with a 17-man Gang?
(Probably alot of you, but come on ^^).

I also need something to convert and paint for the moment (Need some practice on sculpting before I tackle a Chaos O&G army for Fantasy...), and I'd love to see how a "horde" would perform in a Necromunda Campaign.

Some things don't even leave your head when you change universe ;)

Major_Gilbear
17-06-2007, 18:27
Major Gillbear:
It might be seen abit cheesy by some. But I feel that this is just onw way to counter all thoose Shooting,Stealth and Techno gangs just sitting on Overwatch the whole game.
Yeah, it is one way to counter other cheesy gangs. It is still cheesy itself though. If you are having problems with cheesy gangs, I suggest you find players who will play in the spirit of the game rather than making your own cheesy gang.


And also, it's not that cheesy when you give it some consideration. Remember that everyone has to test psychology on their own Ld, wich can make a downed friend within 2" a serius problem. With this amount of members, they will be tightly packed and will therefore also be more sensitive to Grenades,Flamers,Heavy Plasmaguns etc.
And think about the amount of exp the enemy can get from picking of Devotee Shields.
I have considered it, and it is cheesy.
Redemptionists suffer Hatred against several gangs, and although lower leaderships are more of an issue if they are not suffering Hatred, they are no worse off than other gangs. Crusaders still have a Ld of 7 like regular gangers afterall, and even though many will have low leadership, they are more likely to have a friend nearby for Pinning purposes.
Most gangs in Necro don't have many template weapons, and if any you play against do specifically so that they can cope with you, then it is only further proof that your gang is out of kilter.
If you let your enemy shoot up your gang on the way in, it doesn't balance your gang, it just shows poor tactics. I cannot see how letting your gang get shot up makes it "fair" in any credible way.


Also noticed something. This gang will be the underdog in the first games as they only have 7 exp rolls ^^.
Whilst you may be the underdog because more than half your gang starts at 0 XP, most players would agree that this is not a disadvantage at all. In fact, it is a huge advantage, as you get a boost to all your XP whilst you are an "underdog". When your gang does start to rack up XP, 17 members will all get D6 XP minimum, just for showing up; that builds up fast with those sorts of numbers, and you won't be underdog for long.


Also, the further you get into the game, the worse the gang will get.
Serius wounds will start stacking up on the Devotees, and soon i'll have a limping line if I don't play my cards right (or if my opponent does...).
Well, your opponent might have potentially more targets to shoot, but he can still only fire as many times as he would normally. So you shouldn't be taking more fire than any other gang. If you let your gang members be shot, that is down to your tactics, not due to any sort of "balancing" or "fairness". Any gang that lets itself get shot up will have lines of limping cripples, not just yours.


When the enemy starts packing Plasma Guns in droves and Dual-Boltpistol wielding monsters. I'll be stuck with the same equipment as I have in the begining (If I don't save pts for something like 4-5 games just to buy a Priest. But in that time, the enemy will get a head-start on equipment).
Your enemy is limited by the weapon categories and by luck in rolling up desirable skills. Again, if your opponents are tailoring their gangs specifically to defeat yours, then your gang is clearly being regarded as cheesy and their reaction is to be expected. Also, when you start rolling all those shooting and CC skills, your equipment will be more efficient too; rapid firing, marksmen, gunfighters etc can all make use of the basic equipment on offer to the Redmptionists and be very effective indeed. Especially in the numbers that your gang has.


My only plan on this gang is just to very big. I don't have alot of other things to do.
Sounds exciting... You're really selling your gang now. :rolleyes:


Never played 40k ^^.
You should; this is far more suited as a Witch Hunter Army than as a Necro gang.


And at the variation part, that is where you are wrong (Looks-wise atleast. But Hey, what can you do with a Redemption Mob?.If it is broken, do/play something else. Like all those WH40k Iron Warriors players who claim that it isn't their fault the IW rules are cheesy, and still play IW abusively anyway. In your case, a Cawdor gang or a Crusade force might be more interesting to play.


I mean, look at their equipment options ^^.).
What about them? All Necro players can tell you that six guys with Autoguns are more dagerous than one with a Heavy Stubber and Frag grenades...


By making a Chaos Gang, it opens ALOT of windows for conversions etc.
I'm planing on using all manor of models to make it look as different as possible. Not making ONE model look like the next (And that IS a challange with this amount of models). They might look different, but they are still the same to play and are still the same to play against.


And moneywise:
This is simply something I kinda felt like doing. And with a lot of bits left over, I thought "What the hell!. I'm not using theese for anything else".
For instance I have some Beastmen lying around that i'm not going to use for anything. And they gave me some ideas.
Mix in some normal Catachans,Cadians etc. Sculpt some ragged robes and minor mutations and voilá!. A band of Chaos Worshipers.
And variations come for me the further you get into a campaign
(Altought it will be a problem with a Redemptionist Mob...).
Most of those seem... unnecessarily hard work TBH. Just get a box of WHFB Flagellants and a few Necro weapon sprues and you're set. Cadians and Catachans don't even have the right weapons, and sculpting all those robes will get to be a drag sooner rather than later.


And you'r right, the Shootouts for example, will be a problem.
But this is a second gang ( I've already got a serious 9-grot gang to play with) that I want to do just to be able to do something COMPLETELY different.
I mean, how many of you have played with a 17-man Gang?
(Probably alot of you, but come on ^^).
More than you might think, especially those of us who've run Scavvy gangs under the old rules. How else do you think we know that such a gang is cheesy?

I would suggest that you run a more conventional gang for Necro, as those uber-huge hordes are... um, not really suited to Necro. Like Space Marines in Inquisitor or IW in WH40k, some forces break the rules as they are so extreme in what they can represent. You can still have a unique and converted gang, and make it as Chaotic as you wish. Scavvies (for mutants), Cawdor (able to hire Wyrds) or a Redemptionist Crusade (what the gang should really be) are all more suitable for this.

Ultimately these are my opinions, and since you've posted your gang up for comments, I'm doing just that. You can play whatever you like and 17+ model gangs tickle you the right way, then go ahead and field them. But if you ask me, I think they are broken and cheesy rules, and have taken the trouble here to explain to you why that is.

Whatever happens though, do remember to show us more models when you get them all fixed up! We all like to see model pix! :D

Fire Mountain
18-06-2007, 08:22
Hmm, I guess you are right.
It is a bit cheesy.
But it's just that I think to much of the game is spent in overwatch with every person I play (And thoose that isn't, seems like they will be soon).

I'm starting to think that it's a small rule that eats up the game, and that this gang would be one way to make a diferance. But when I think about it, maybe it would just encourage it.
Maybe I should just play with my normal 9-grot gang and stay average because i'm not in Overwatch 80% of the game.

I'm not gonna drop the idea of the Chaos Cult though.
Maybe a CC oriented gang in the future ^^.

Oh, and I would also like to ask something:
If this isn't the way a Mob should look like to make full use of it's rules, how should a Mob look like?

Ross
18-06-2007, 09:28
Don't take this as too seriously but I view mobs as a great number of models (done, tick) with as many mixes/combinations of weapons. From strickly flail wielding to one with a club, one with shotgun, one with pistol and knife, one with machette, one with great club, one with 2 auto pistols, one with lasgun, one with club and shotgun, one with club and axe, one with molotov's (grenades), one with pistol and molotov's, one with bolt pistol and flail, one with molotov and shotgun, pistol and club, shotgun and sword, one with pistol and cub.

Now that's 17 models which is what you had, with a big mix of weapons to form a riot mob, at least that's what I picture. Big suggestion on using/making molotov's to count as grenades, every mad mob uses them :)

Anyway, that's what I see in a mob :)

Tomothy
18-06-2007, 10:26
If overwatch is a really big problem then there was a thread here earlier (was asked by a spyrer player so many of the answers are slanted towards that).

One really good way to prevent overwatch being so effective is to have lots and lots of terrain. To have as few fire lanes as possible. The other way i've found is to be more patient, to keep maneuvering, slowly, taking your time each turn. If they complain just say "dude, you're going on overwatch every turn, a, why do you care and b, shut the hell up". Making good use of closest target, like you've talked about, but also taking shots at range with lasguns to pin them. Constantly moving to get out of their 90 degree fire arc and enforcing said fire arc. When they say "i'm going on overwatch" ask them if they're facing exactly like that and make sure they know they can't change it.

Ancientsociety
18-06-2007, 13:56
I have to agree with Major_Gilbear on this - your mob screams cheese and is way too homogenous to be much fun in the long-term. And, from a 40K WH player, even WH Zealots aren't this similar in appearance and kit. Mix it up a bit.

Also, I noticed your title was for Chaos and your mob is the "Tainted Flame", are these Chaos Cultitsts? Are you aware that there are rules for Chaos Cults in Gang War #2? This list is MUCH better than the Redemptionists since it includes the Hvy Flamer and a Mutations list.

And, if you're having trouble with Overwatch, use more terrain.

Tomothy
18-06-2007, 14:08
Also, I noticed your title was for Chaos and your mob is the "Tainted Flame", are these Chaos Cultitsts? Are you aware that there are rules for Chaos Cults in Gang War #2? This list is MUCH better than the Redemptionists since it includes the Hvy Flamer and a Mutations list.
Are you kidding? It was just the redemptionist rules with a whole bunch of extra good stuff and a very few bad things added. They were even less balanced than the old redemptionist rules (which i suppose where the most balanced of the outlanders, but thats still not saying much).

Honestly I like the themes and ideas of the outlanders but i'm not too impressed with the execution of any of them in either edition (except maybe the new spyrers).

Major_Gilbear
18-06-2007, 19:02
Are you kidding? It was just the redemptionist rules with a whole bunch of extra good stuff and a very few bad things added. They were even less balanced than the old redemptionist rules (which i suppose where the most balanced of the outlanders, but thats still not saying much).
Totally agree; that Chaos list was just about the cheesiest thing ever to grace Necromunda.


Honestly I like the themes and ideas of the outlanders but i'm not too impressed with the execution of any of them in either edition (except maybe the new spyrers).
Agree with this too, though the old Scavvy list was okay (cannibalism aside) and the new Spyrer rules have pretty much nerfed the Malcadon (a shame).

@Fire Mountain:
Don't get me wrong, you built a proper mob alright, and with a legal list. A mob should be big, and should have basic weapons, both of which you did. It's just that very big gangs tend to upset the delicate balance in Necro. That same thing happens with certain weapons or when gangs reach a certain level of experience; they just dominate everything so thoroughly that only another power-list is able to match them. At that point the game stops being fun.

Reading your comments, it sounds like lack of fun is a major factor in your group. Not that you don't have fun (I wouldn't dare presume!), but I mean in the sense that competition drowns out fair play and/or other players' feelings.

Next time you play a serial overwatcher, why not try this:
Only move your men to get a better defensive set up, otherwise overwatch and do nothing else at all. After a few turns of doing nothing, your opponent is bound to comment. At this point ask them if they are having a fun a game. If they they are smart, they'll see what you're doing and be more gentlemanly about the game. If not, carefully point out that charging into overwatch every game is dull, so you thought you'd show them how dull it feels to be on the receiving end. Be diplomatic about it, there's no need to upset or offend anyone, and with luck you might see the rest of the group come to regard the game a little differently.

Again, Mr T's suggestion of masses of terrain is also a good one. This goes double for any gang which has lots of shotguns and flamers (like Redemptionists) as they can ignore cover when shooting and benefit greatly from short lines of sight. I also think that Treacherous Conditions may help you out too, as many of the weather options make it hard to shoot normally.

Catferret
19-06-2007, 01:11
My last gang was a horde. Really nasty as they could shred another gang easily by simple weight of numbers. I didn't get much choice about having so many models though. I started with 3 Settlements and kept getting free Juves. Some of them even survived long enough to become Gangers and were given guns. The rest were fed Spook or Spur and pushed forward to see what would happen...