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Col.Gravis
20-06-2007, 23:59
A brand new aircraft for Aeronautica Imperialis, the Chaos Harbinger is a vast warplane; a heavy bomber designed to level cities and engulf them in a sea of incendiary fire. The model itself; -a wickedly streamlined killing machine is a great new design around 17cm long, and just over 11cm wide, which puts it at several times the size of an Imperial Marauder and largely comparable in scale to a Tau Manta, although a deal sleeker and more deadly looking in profile.

In the game the Harbinger is hugely destructive to ground targets, bringing a deadly punch to Chaos air fleets both for scenarios and campaign play, and it`s also well defended with reaper autocannon to keep would-be interceptors at bay.

Pics here: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/harbinger.htm
Experimental Rules here: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/downloadsai.htm
Available to pre-order, dispatches 2nd July

Charax
21-06-2007, 01:02
:D
Awwweeeesoooome

Nice addition to Chaos fleets, especially with additional loadout 2. Not sure how it'll fare amongst an otherwise fast and mobile fleet, it may risk being left behind. It will be interesting to have some unlimited-ammo weapons in the fleet though - it just needs it's rear covering.

At 12 points less than a Manta I would expect more - it's vastly superior at bombing, but bombing is so rarely a major feature in most missions that the Harbinger is unlikely to see much general service - the Manta is tougher, faster, can hover, can transport (chaos STILL doesn't have a transport), mounts an absolute ton of weaponry and has a good multi-use weapon loadout that can easily adapt to ground or air targets, and has some impressive all-round firepower.

The Harbinger has a hell of a lot of bombs, and unlimited-ammo weapons (but then again, when are you likely to see a Manta run out of ammo?)

Seems a tad expensive for what it does, and a little too specialised.

Iracundus
21-06-2007, 13:48
Its description is so bland. It's practically a generic description that could have almost described the current Hell Talon. Replace the appropriate names and you could hardly tell the difference.

These new "super heavy" craft such as the Manta and this Harbinger have shown one weak point in the AI game system. There's no degradation of craft performance based on damage or critical hits. A Harbinger or Manta functions at full capacity, right up to when it takes that final damage point. Having some sort of damage effect system would allow for bombers to limp home riddled with holes, barely holding together, with gunners dead or guns and wings shot off.

Charax
21-06-2007, 13:54
well, I suppose they thought it wasn't worth making a whole new subset of ruled for the..three? super-heavy craft in the game.

Making a houserule for it might be an interesting idea

Iracundus
21-06-2007, 13:57
Who said it only had to apply to super heavy craft? It could apply for all craft that can survive more than 1 damage.

Charax
21-06-2007, 14:03
that would mean an awful lot of bookkeeping, and some craft would become effectively useless after a single hit, dramatically changing the balance of some lists. Applying it only to super-heavy flyers (8 hits or more?) means the rules have a far less drastic impact on the game while still being characterful.

mageboltrat
21-06-2007, 15:06
The Harbinger has a hell of a lot of bombs, and unlimited-ammo weapons (but then again, when are you likely to see a Manta run out of ammo?)

Seems a tad expensive for what it does, and a little too specialised.

Actually this is great.. as all it's guns are ul. It can drop all it bombs and then can leave the board with no victory point bonus for the opponent.

Col.Gravis
21-06-2007, 17:41
Aye, it's gonna be a tricky one to counter, reasonably fast if not that manouverable with enough defensive firepower to give loan fighters a worry and a bomb load that pretty much guarantees the destruction of whatever targets it's applied too ah an theres all those hit points.

HarkonGreywolf
21-06-2007, 19:22
OK that's all very well, but I don't really like the look of it much! :(
Seems a bit "blocky" to me, and the "X-wing" style approach to the wing ends is "odd"!
I can see where the inspiration came from, it just doesn't "feel" right to me.

And now with this and the Manta (did I hear someone say 3 Super-heavies? Am I missing something obvious?) we come to the large target problem again!

How can something this large still only be hit in its fire arc on a 5 or 6 (depending on altitiude.)
I still think it should be made easier to hit such a large plane, especially from close range!
Perhaps a general rule of +1 to hit close range for anyone shooting against a Super-heavy!

HG

Charax
21-06-2007, 19:26
Thunderhawk's a super-heavy, it's just not "Ultra-heavy" in the same league as the Manta and Harbinger

HarkonGreywolf
21-06-2007, 19:31
Thanks for the clarification.
Never really looked at the T-Hawk as a Super heavy! And it only has 6 Hits, so not really in the same league, as you so rightly state. Oh well.
:D

HG

fattdex
22-06-2007, 07:29
I'm trying to decide if I'm evil enough to get one for the tournament :D

ChaosLordScorn
23-06-2007, 06:40
Wow. Entirely wow.

Just got into 40k a few months back, and I can say I already love the chaos airships. They look like razor-blades.

Not liking the 'X' thing going on with the Harbinger's wings, but the overall shape of the craft screams "evil".

I need to get one and paint it deep, sinister colors.

HarkonGreywolf
23-06-2007, 09:24
@ fattdex, of course you are evil enough! ;) Why else would you be playing Chaos? LOL

Let us have a report on how impossible it is for any other forces to take out in normal game play though, won't you! ;) (That is without my suggestion of a "+1 to hit for a large target!" ) He he!

HG

Axel
24-06-2007, 21:01
I like the Harbringer. Actually its the first Chaos model that I envy the players of Chaos for.

fattdex
25-06-2007, 02:59
i reckon she won't actually last that long, especially against extra damage weapons like lascannons! And perhaps from tipping over, too :P

I'd love to hear from anybody that get's to proxy playtest it, i meant to this weekend but got too busy.

Sojourner
25-06-2007, 11:12
Good god, that's practically a spacecraft. Considering Mantas apparently can operate independently in fleet actions, and this seems bigger - well, do the maths...

Charax
25-06-2007, 11:34
well, it actually has 2 less hits than the Manta, so either it's bigger and weaker, or not quite as big as the Manta.

In normal games I'd probably use the 7 helltalons I could buy with the points.

little
26-06-2007, 13:53
Do you think FW may this plane to WH40K squale????

Col.Gravis
26-06-2007, 17:02
Do you think FW may this plane to WH40K squale????

I doubt it, the Harbringer is more of a strategic bomber along the lines of the B-17 or B-29, the nearest comparable bomber we have is the Marauder which I'd equate as a tactical bomber more like the B-25 and B-26.

We have larger aircraft of course, the Thunderhawk (an assault transport so of more practical battlefield use) and the Manta (the Tau's answer to the Titans of other races).

Dreachon
26-06-2007, 17:45
We could get a smalelr version of it.

Darnok
26-06-2007, 18:50
We could get a smalelr version of it.

For what reason? FW did the Manta in scale. So if they ever did the Harbinger, it would be in scale too. But I doubt it. There is no practical use in 40K for a bomber of that size.

Col.Gravis
26-06-2007, 21:17
We could get a smalelr version of it.

In which case it would'nt be a Harbringer ;) but yeah its always possible FW might release more 40k scale aircraft, especially if Apocolypse includes support for them in any form.

little
26-06-2007, 21:20
only for fun ..... what else.... no realy, it may be fantastic to see this bomber on WH40K squale, but not realy very funny to play with him (except for chaos players)

Kossac
28-06-2007, 18:16
just what everyone has been sayin bout the Harbinger: about it not having any functions bar a bomber etc etc...

"The Harbinger is an enormous heavy bomber employed by the forces of Chaos. Once considered little more than a rumour, in recent times as the forces pouring forth from the Eye of terror have grown bolder and more numerous, the encounters with the dreaded Harbinger have grown more frequent and its terrible destructive power proved time and again.
Seen in support of Chaos incursions and heavy raids and flown from heavily defended spearhead bases or deployed from spacecraft in low orbit, they carry a massive and destructive payload of bombs and incendiaries, and a flight of Harbingers darkening the skies is a sight that has spelt the doom of whole cities in the past, and the appearance of one in a war zone is enough to make it a priority target for any Imperial Pilot."

It was designed to be a bomber!!!

plus, i think chaos needed an expensive warplane... with basic fighters at 12 pts each, you need nearly a 30 at least for a 500 pt list... or at least i do...

little
29-06-2007, 13:09
Okkay Chaos troups needs a very expensive warplane, but FW may build other thing like heavy fighter or battlefortress (with a lot of gun).....An heavy bomber is not a good choice. In a lot on mission, you have to doggfighting....not bombing all the time...

fattdex
29-06-2007, 13:54
sure.
but would you use an arvus in a dogfight?
No, because that isn't its purpose.
This things sole purpose it to bomb the living **** out of a target, so when you have a big game where the objective *is* to bomb, you can take it.

Wolflord Havoc
29-06-2007, 13:56
Its description is so bland. It's practically a generic description that could have almost described the current Hell Talon. Replace the appropriate names and you could hardly tell the difference.

These new "super heavy" craft such as the Manta and this Harbinger have shown one weak point in the AI game system. There's no degradation of craft performance based on damage or critical hits. A Harbinger or Manta functions at full capacity, right up to when it takes that final damage point. Having some sort of damage effect system would allow for bombers to limp home riddled with holes, barely holding together, with gunners dead or guns and wings shot off.

I proposed a very simple idea for an aircraft having taken 50% or more damage. It simply cannot climb or accelerate if it is carrying a secondary load. I.E. a Marauder bomber carrying its secondary load of bombs having suffered 2 hits could not climb or accelerate unless it elects to ditch them (or until it makes the target zone and drops them on target). Standard weapon loads would not be affected.

orangesm
29-06-2007, 14:36
In any air battle where you are allowed to take Bomber type aircraft here is normally some kind of ground objective. This is why there are two types of Aircraft, Fighters and Bombers.