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Fire Mountain
22-06-2007, 09:43
No one in my gaming group is really playing a CC gang, and I thought that I could be the first (Altough not totaly CC oriented).

It will be made by the theme of a Chaos Cult, giving me tons of conversion options and such. But at this moment, converting doesn't matter.
I need some help with the Gang.

First of all it's a Unknown Warrior's gang. With theese skills:

Fundamental: Muscle
Major: Agility
Minor: Shooting
Peripheral: Stealth

Ok, some of you might say that stealth would be fitting for a Chaos Cult. Them having to be sneaky not to get caught. Well, I find Stealth to be an almost to good skill tree. And this gang is also meant to represent the brunt force of the cult. When you go to war, you don't always have to be sneaky.

On to the list:

Leader with Sword, Maul and Bolt Pistol: 160
Heavy with Flamer and Maul: 110
Ganger with Maul, Shotgun and Man-Stoppers: 85
Ganger with Sword, Shotgun and Man-Stoppers: 85
Ganger with Maul, Shotgun and Man-Stoppers: 85
Ganger with Sword and Autogun: 80
Ganger with Sword and Maul: 70
Ganger with 2 Swords: 70
Ganger with Maul and Autopistol: 75
Juve with Massive Flail: 40
Juve with Maul and Autopistol: 50
Juve with 2 Mauls: 45
Pit Slave: 10

970 Credits

The plan when advancing is quite simple.
Gangers with Shotguns and Autoguns will take Shooting when they can, and will therefore form my cover shooting.
The Gangers with CC weapons will start with Muscle and then move towards Agility. Juves will concentrate on Agility in the begining and then move towards Muscle.
Leader and Heavy will first go towards Techno and then the Leader will go towards CC skills and the Heavy will probably stay on the Techno train for a while.

If a CC Ganger gets +BS or a shooty Ganger gets +WS before they have had time to choose any of the special skills, then they will simply switch weapons.

Pit Slave is in there because he is dirt cheap and that Rock Drill is one mean weapon. When you get one with Infiltrate, then you'r a happy camper.

Chimpeh
22-06-2007, 10:11
If you intend this gang to be close combat orientated then I would take CC skills over shooting.

Other than that it looks quite good, perhaps consider dropping the Pit-slave and instead opt for a Ratskin Renegade? Oh and try and give all your Juves weapons, even if they are stubguns, its frustrating when they end up at a shootout and have nothing to return fire with.

If you make all the changes I've suggested then your total would be 995 credits, leaving 5 for your stash.

Fire Mountain
22-06-2007, 11:36
Only Ratskin Gangs can have Ratskin Renegades.
And you'r right about the lacking of ranged weapons on the Juves.
But in my gaming group, most of the first games are Gang Fights.
So I will have time to get the guns if I want to.

And about giving the shooty gangers CC skills:
Why?
The whole plan is that I divide the gang into groups of three. One ranged, one who will backup on the way in and a CC fighter.
For example:
Ganger with Sword, Shotgun and Man-Stoppers.
Heavy with Maul and Flamer.
Juve with 2 Mauls.

So giving the shooty ones Shooting skills is a big part of the plan as it will make it easier for them to shoot at the enemies sitting in windows and such and taking them down (or just pinning them) before I get there. And therefore making it alot easier for my CC guys to hack 'em up.

And it's not like I don't have enough CC in the gang. 8 of the members are solely made for CC (And the Heavy is going to be in the middle of it).
And the rest of the gang is kitted out to be able to hold their own in CC to.

Chimpeh
22-06-2007, 14:12
Only Ratskin Gangs can have Ratskin Renegades.

Sorry I meant Ratskin Scout [p.104 of the PDF rulebook] -- I was typing quickly whilst at uni!


And about giving the shooty gangers CC skills:
Why?

I figured that as you were tailoring your gang to be CC orientated it would be more fluffy to take close combat skills as well rather than shooting skills to demonstrate this fact.


So giving the shooty ones Shooting skills is a big part of the plan as it will make it easier for them to shoot at the enemies sitting in windows and such and taking them down (or just pinning them) before I get there. And therefore making it alot easier for my CC guys to hack 'em up.

Fluff is a big part of making your own 'Unknown Warriors' gang [See Stage 1: House name and background; in the UW PDF]. Personally if I were tailoring my gang to be close combat orientated I'd take CC skills rather than shooting skills to reflect their reliance upon CC to win fights. You can still take several members with basic / special / heavy weapons to provide a firebase, however, to tailor your skills to give you the best of both shooting and CC seems a little wrong to me. But 'ey thats just my opinion.

Best of luck with the gang.

Major_Gilbear
22-06-2007, 17:26
I pretty much agree with Chimpeh. Also, easy up on the swords a bit eh? We all know they're good, but no need to make the gang impossible to beat in CC (even if they are meant to be good at it!).

Fire Mountain
22-06-2007, 17:29
I won't be able to get the best of CC and shooting though. As i'm lacking the complementary skill for Shooting. Stealth.
Also, I won't be using any Lasguns in the gang so i'm still far from "the best of shooting".
And to be very powerfull in CC you would like to complement it with Combat or Ferocity (Wich gives my Leader the ability to have the best CC mix).

Also:
Isn't Necromunda all about variation?.
Mixing the Shooty and CC part in a gang seems like a perfect way to get the most aspects of the game. If I where to switch Shooting for Ferocity or Combat, then shooty Gangers would not be as effective.
As you would like to arm yourself with 2 HW's or Massives.

And I do have fluff in mind when i'm making this gang. I'm trying to give the gang some varied skills, symbolising the rag-tag of the Cult (Being a Cult of the Scum...). They weren't suposed to relly solely on CC to win fights.
But by the CC gangers advancing under an unholy cover-fire.

Maybe this is something I should have pointed out in the begining as I did state that it where going to be a CC gang. Wich might be a bit missleading.
I'm aiming for a gang where I will be able to enjoy both the CC and shooting part of Necromunda, but leaning a bit more towards CC.

Wich might be the end of me as i'll be a bit of a Jack of all trades (Is that how you say it?), but not really good at any particular part.

Fire Mountain
23-06-2007, 10:06
Major_Gilbear:
Actually, only 3 of the models armed with Swords are "meant" to be sent into CC (The Leader,2 Sword- and Maul,Sword-ganger).
The rest of the Swords are placed on 2 of my "shooty-Gangers" as a reserve, IF they would have to get stuck in CC.

But maybe 3 Sword armed Gangers out of 7 CC Gangers is to much?

Fire Mountain
24-06-2007, 08:58
Question:
Do you think changing the second Maul and Shotgun-Ganger into a Maul and Lasgun-Ganger for variation would be a good idea? (As I now have two Gangers armed in exectly the same way).
Or is the gang going to go towards being a bit cheesy then?.

Major_Gilbear
24-06-2007, 19:58
Having two gangers armed alike is okay.

You don't need swords for backup, flails are also good. That is partly why it seems cheesy; it is as if you take the swords in acknowledgement that they will turn the tide in your favour even in CC fights that don't involve your "CC Gangers".

There is no need to triple post. You could have easily posted all that in one post . It is harder to follow topics -especially when they get longer- if ppl multi-post.

Fire Mountain
25-06-2007, 08:34
(I'l keep that triple-post thing in mind. Don't know what I where thinking ^^).

I can't take Flails in the gang (Choosen weapons are: Sword,Maul,Massive and Bolt Pistol. I might be re-considering the Bolt Pistol though.)
And why would I otherwise give them Swords?.
Ofcourse they are there to turn the tide (Remember that only 2 of the Shooty Gangers have swords) if they get stuck in CC. If they get stuck in CC they'll probably be facing something that is better then them (2 Mauls,2 Swords, Maul and a Sword...Flail?). And if not, poor planing by the enemy.
And the re-roll HAVE the posibillity to do more harm then help (Maybe not that often though)

But you'r right. I don't need swords.
But if I give them Mauls, then i'll have 3 Gangers armed exactly the same way (And wasn't Necromunda all about variation?).

And is really 5 Swords in a gang of 12 to much? (Where as only 3 will be stuck in CC).

Chimpeh
25-06-2007, 15:30
I wrote a huge essay the other night but I figured it'd be much easier for everyone if I summarised.

- Gang variety stems from a number of factors; the models, their weapons & the 'house' rules the gang belongs too. As a campaign progresses the variety increases within a gang as individual's develop skills, gain stat increases and develop background. I wouldn't worry overly about two models being armed the same, undoubtedly as the campaign progresses they'll become varied enough.

- With regard to the 'jack of all trades' approach, this is nothing new. Almost every gang I've ever encountered has gangers that are specialised to different roles. Even houses that specialise in a particular style of fighting [e.g Van Saar -- ranged fighting] have had gangers that are equipped for the alternate fighting style [i.e. CC for the Van Saar example].

- This brings me onto my next point; with your Unknown warriors you've picked the best of both worlds and not really given your gang any disadvantages. You have shooting skills that enable you to provide decent support fire and you've taken swords, which provides your close combat gangers with parries.

Personally if I were writing your gang-list I'd perhaps drop swords and instead take flails. They have their advantages but also several disadvantages, which would make your list appear far less powerful.

Alternatively when I wrote my own unknown warriors list I opted for my gang to be better at shooting than combat. To reflect this I gave them shooting skills and didn't opt for any extra close combat skills OR weapons. Despite the fact that my gang will be less effective in close combat I have stilled armed several members with a variety of pistols and knifes. You could do the same; your gang focuses primarily on CC however you could still have several members who use basic, special or heavy weapons to provide supporting fire. Your supporting gangers wont be as good as a Van Saar ganger who has access to shooting skills BUT they can still shoot people.

What I'm trying to say, poorly, is that just because a ganger has an autogun he doesn't necessarily need to have shooting skills to be any good.

Anyway, considering I was only summarising I've written far too much. I hope I've explained myself better this time. =/

Major_Gilbear
25-06-2007, 22:57
(I'l keep that triple-post thing in mind. Don't know what I where thinking ^^).Hey, no problem. I'm not a Mod or anything, just thought I'd point it out though as it really can confuse things! :)


I can't take Flails in the gang (Chosen weapons are: Sword,Maul,Massive and Bolt Pistol.[...])
You made that list though, and you could just as easily put other weapons in there.


And why would I otherwise give them Swords?.
Ofcourse they are there to turn the tide (Remember that only 2 of the Shooty Gangers have swords) if they get stuck in CC. If they get stuck in CC they'll probably be facing something that is better then them (2 Mauls,2 Swords, Maul and a Sword...Flail?).
This is my point. Swords are far too good not because they are under-costed (which they are anyway) but because they are sooooo good - they are are a little like real-world nuclear weapons in that you have to have them because your enemy has them. Shooty gangers will almost always be charged by a superior CC fighter (would you deliberately pick a fight stacked against your favour if you got to choose who to charge?). I still think that is a feeble reason to justify such a controversially useful weapon.


And if not, poor planing by the enemy.
And the re-roll HAVE the posibillity to do more harm then help (Maybe not that often though)
Well, not poor planning necessarily. I mean, the other player might want to play a gang that relies on tactics rather than wonder-weapons. Kinda like shooty gang players that don't want to spend the whole game on overwatch.
And yes, swords can worsen the situation, but you can also fumble your attack and your opponent can roll a Critical; that's dice rolling for ya :rolleyes: . Seriously though, ppl wouldn't have an issue with the extraordinary versatility of swords if they weren't so gosh-darned good.



But you'r right. I don't need swords.
But if I give them Mauls, then i'll have 3 Gangers armed exactly the same way (And wasn't Necromunda all about variation?).
Necromunda is also about having fun. Besting a CC-orientated ganger just because you have a sword is going to feel unfair as a player when you're on the receiving end of it no matter how you look at it. I mean, imagine if Autoguns granted Rapid Fire or such; ppl would justifiably get upset at seeing them in numbers on gang rosters. Parry is a skill that has to be earned by a CC ganger, and to be granted it just for swinging a sword seems cheap.


And is really 5 Swords in a gang of 12 to much? (Where as only 3 will be stuck in CC).
Is five lasguns in a 12 man gang too many? I think you know my answer.;)

I'm not trying to be difficult or contrary here, I just think that some weapons are very strong for reasons that are obvious. I also think players should be mature enough to recognise that and to pick gangs that don't try and gain special advantage from such loopholes.

@Chimpeh:
Actually, Chimpeh, I think you made your point quite well. I also think I agree with it.

thorgrim
27-06-2007, 06:03
With regards to the list i personally have no problems with it. But i would suggest rather then using the unknown warriors rules that you use the redemptionist rules instead. This is just a personal thing as i think the redemtionist method of earning money and the way the gang is stuctured will make a good chaos cult list.

Fire Mountain
28-06-2007, 17:45
After showing each other our lists in the club, I think there won't be a problem with the Swords in the list (One guy had Swords on most of his Gangers). I made some slight alterations to the lsit and played my first game with it.

Leader with Sword, Maul and Hand Flamer: 160
Heavy with Flamer and Maul: 110
Ganger with Sword, Shotgun and Man-Stoppers: 85
Ganger with Maul, Shotgun and Man-Stoppers: 85
Ganger with Chain, Shotgun and Man-Stoppers: 85
Ganger with Sword and Autogun: 80
Ganger with Sword and Maul: 70
Ganger with 2 Swords: 70
Ganger with Maul and Chain: 70
Juve with Massive Flail: 40
Juve with Chain and Autopistol: 50
Juve with 2 Mauls: 45
Pit Slave with Rock Drill and Autopistol: 10

Came to a total of 960 Credits.
The Pit Slave got 2W, 4 Ws, 4S and Dodge.

My terrirories where:
Holestead
Guilder Contact
Mineral Outcrop
Drinking Hole
Drinking Hole

Really fitting for a Chaos Cult, ey? :p .

The first game where against a band of Imperial Guard deserters, who where hiring their services to the Guilders.

He played a pretty elite shooty gang, with almost every ganger armed with a Frag or Krak Grenade.
It where something like:

Leader with Plasma Pistol, Sword, Frag etc.
Heavy with Stub Gun, Autopistol and Mace.
Ganger with Shotgun, M-S's,Sword, Frags
Ganger with Shotgun, M-S's, Sword, Frags
Ganger with Shotgun, M-S's, Sword, Krak
Ganger with Lasgun, Krak.
Ganger with Laspistol.
And someone I really can't remember.

I got to set up the terrain as he where helping some guys with their new Aeronautica Imperialis miniatures. And as we had agreed before the campagn, we where going to use alot of terrain.

I used a tactic of splitting my gang into strike-forces, aich seemed to work perfectly.
In my gang, only one juve where taken Down in Turn 2, and he stayed that way for the 4 turns the game lasted. And recovered at the end of the game.
I made a total of 3 Wounds in the game, all from my Shooty Gangers.The Pit Slave shurely did his work by putting himself as a shiedl between me and the enemy.


While my opponent suffered 2 Out of Actions and only Downed one of my Juves. But his Heavy did take a Wound of the Pit Slave.
He got alot of advances after this game as he was the Underdog...

Only 2 of my Gangers made advances. The Shotgun, Maul Ganger and the Shotgun-Chain Ganger. Both got Bs4 (Yay! ^^).

I rolled pretty poorly on income (taking in mind that I had in effect 5D6x10)
and collected only enough to get 45 Creds. Wich totaled 85 Creds at my disposal.

I bought 2 Hand Flamers for the 2 Sword and Sword-Maul Gangers.
Leaving me with 45 Cred to spend. I decided to save them and hire the Pit Slave for a second match. And then maybe buy my Heavy a Plasma Gun, as the amount of Hand Flamers in this list will do the job for me (I think there will be a total of 4 of them). But i'm still only considering.

So, this was the first game with this list. No complaints on it.
A overall fun gang wich gives me alot of variation in gameplay. I look forward for my future games with this list to see how it goes for me in this campaign ^^.

Stay tuned for some models (Some day...).

Mephistofeles
10-07-2007, 13:26
Ey, I most certainly haven't got swords on "most of my gangers", I have swords on two and a power sword on my leader, and none of them have two swords...

(And to all the rest of you, I am the other Chaos Cult player at the same club as Fire Mountain is at)

Fire Mountain
10-07-2007, 16:58
True... I have seen that. But as i've noticed, Swords don't really matter in most games (I haven't got any of my gangers into CC yet. The Hand Flamers and Shotguns have done it for me ^^). And as none of my opponents have some true CC Gangers (Nothing but CC weapons), I'm not seeing to much CC fighting for a while (Except with my Juve who now has Sprint ^^).

I have played 3 Games after this first one. First one where against the Guilders (The same as my first match), wich I won. But with some serius losses. My Autogun Ganger and Autopistol and Flail Juve went OOA. And guess what, both died ^^. So with the money left over, I bought new ones exactly like them. One of my Shotgun Gangers recieved the Gunfighter skill, so I sold his equipment and bought him 2 Plasma Pistols.

Next game where against Mephistofeles Nurgle Cult. Finally a showdown between the two cults of Necromunda.
But, my winning streak had to come to an end sometime. With some luck i managed to get away with only 1 member OOA and 2 Downed. One of them made it, th eother didn't. The Juve who where taken OOA got captured by the Nurgle Cult. But the Ganger made it with a Full Recovery.

Last game was a Rescue Mission to free my Juve (2 Mauls). Wich I failed with. But from the game I earned some sweet exp. Giving my 2 Plasma Pistol guy Bs4, a Shotgun ganger Bs5 and another Shotgun Ganger Bs4.
With the money earned, I sold my Heavy's equipment, bought a Shotgun with MS for him and a Plasmagun for my Bs5 Leader. I also gave my Flail, Maul Ganger a Shotgun with MS too.
As i've noticed, I do need a big piece of cover fire to get into CC (Something I will take into consideration in the next campaign).

In about 2 weeks I will recieve some of the models I'll be using for the gang. So stay tuned to see the gang start taking shape.

Guilliman
17-07-2007, 22:45
Ey, I most certainly haven't got swords on "most of my gangers", I have swords on two and a power sword on my leader, and none of them have two swords...
I'll second that. The only sword in my gang is the one belonging to the leader.

I'm the guilder player by the way with the hired mercenaries (not ex guardsmen)

And "Mountie". Maybe we should start some "Campaign Thread" about this if people are interested? Although we should have started it before the first game..

Catferret
18-07-2007, 03:45
And "Mountie". Maybe we should start some "Campaign Thread" about this if people are interested? Although we should have started it before the first game..

Votes for campaign thread! I did one and people seemed to like it...

Chimpeh
18-07-2007, 07:14
Yeah do a campaign thread! It's always great to hear how other people's campaigns are progressing.

Fire Mountain
18-07-2007, 14:48
All in for a campaign thread. Let us just discuss some things (Campaign name, structure etc... Mostly Campaign name :D ) and we'll get it started ;).

How about including our progress in building and painting our gangs too?.
Haven't seen that much painted Necromunda around here (Not been here for long, but there doesn't seem to be enough of it ;) )

How about starting the thread with some background to the gangs, the present lists and a picture/s of the gangs. Painted or unpainted.
And we'll try and make Battle Reports of some of the clashes (Always post the more memorable parts of the match at least. Got to be interesting, ya know ;) )

So start writing up some background and think upp a name for the Campaign.

Catferret
18-07-2007, 21:30
Haven't seen that much painted Necromunda around here (Not been here for long, but there doesn't seem to be enough of it ;) )

There's some in my Project Log and Red Skullz' log.

Also try The Underhive (http://z4.invisionfree.com/The_Underhive/index.php?act=idx) for further pics of people's models.

Guilliman
19-07-2007, 21:10
So start writing up some background and think upp a name for the Campaign.

You mean you, Mephistofeles and I start writing? :rolleyes:

Should we start all over or continue from where we're at?

And to not go to off-topic. By the Golden Throne cut down on those hand flamers!

Fire Mountain
20-07-2007, 11:04
Yes, just us ^^. I think we should continue from where we are now. Something tells me we are going to play this alot more often in the future ^^.

And I only have 2 Hand Flamers. Is that really to much? :S
(I have one on my Leader to, but he's never used it. Meaning that i'm going to sell it efter the next game ^^.)

Catferret
20-07-2007, 12:44
The common concensus is bump Handflamers to 30 creds each and make them take an explosion check when you fire it. On a 1, the flamer shoots but also explodes.

Fire Mountain
20-07-2007, 20:49
Sounds fair ^^. Something we should use?
Guilliman?
Mephistofeles?

They ARE pretty good for 25 creds ^^. So the increase to 30 seems fair.
And the ammo check thing sounds kinda fair.

But WHY would they be so unreliable so that they would explode on 1's?
I know, weapons in Necromunda are often old or badly made.
But then maybe all weapons should have that rule :P.

Also, i'm not to deep into 40k technology (Necromunda being my first 40k universe game), are Hand Flamers in regular more prone to explode then other Flamers?

Ross
20-07-2007, 23:02
Haven't seen that much painted Necromunda around here (Not been here for long, but there doesn't seem to be enough of it

I agree, on the not enough of it!!

Check the Bunker29 in my sig, some Necromunda slips in occasionaly there!

<plug plug plug>

Tomothy
21-07-2007, 02:16
Sounds fair ^^. Something we should use?
Guilliman?
Mephistofeles?

They ARE pretty good for 25 creds ^^. So the increase to 30 seems fair.
And the ammo check thing sounds kinda fair.

But WHY would they be so unreliable so that they would explode on 1's?
I know, weapons in Necromunda are often old or badly made.
But then maybe all weapons should have that rule :P.

Also, i'm not to deep into 40k technology (Necromunda being my first 40k universe game), are Hand Flamers in regular more prone to explode then other Flamers?
They worked a lot better under the original rules. Changing them unbalanced them. They used to have a chance to explode, now most people play them as though they don't, why? Because the rules are unclear. So we look at how they should work, because they should have a chance of exploding.

They are effectively an auto ammo roll weapon. They hit automatically every time. Effectively that means they've rolled a 6. Ammo check. Ammo checks with auto ammo means they've run out, or failed, automatically, but must still take an exploding test. Exploding rules for auto weapons say they explode on a D6 roll of 1.