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biggreengribbly
22-06-2007, 23:42
Okay, common consensus is that the Elven warband is horribly unbalacing and easily abused, to the point it has had it's 'official' status revoked. Unfortunately, for now they are the only warband I have available to play with, so help me out here. Is it the list itself that is the problem, or is it the potential for abuse that causes trouble?


I'm guessing the big problem is the 'Quick-Shot, Long/Elf-bow, hunting arrows' combo on every single hero, coupled with silly potential BS that is the major cheese point, but I shall ask those older and wiser than I, is it the list that is the problem, or is it just the way it is played that is at fault? Because I love my pointy-eared ninja's, but what good are they if I never get a game because of them.

carik
25-06-2007, 21:39
My feeling is that it's the potential for abuse. The problem is, the most abusive lists are also most in tune with the fluff, so if you have a list that's competetive but not overpowered, it's not going to fit the feel of the warband very well.

On the other hand, I've never seen them on the table, so...

TKitch
26-06-2007, 20:10
What's a matter BGG? Us over in the other hood aren't good enough for ya? :-P

Anyways, there's a few simple tricks with the shadow warriors to make them not broken:

1) Powerful Build: Removes acdcess to shooting skills, when taken. (Choose new skills for any shooties you have already.)

2) Sniper: Gone

3) Shadow spell thing: Remove it. Just reroll it should it be rolled up.

4) Shadow Walkers: 0-2 instead of 0-3

4) Shadow Warriors +5GC


mostly does it.

biggreengribbly
28-06-2007, 03:23
It was just easier to get here :p I wander by Warseer several times a day, it's been so long since I went to the 'hood I'd forgotten it even existed TBH Assumed it went down with all the others in the 'GW Official forum' nuke.

Anyway, on topic before I make the same mistake I made last time we bumped into each other.

How exactly is standing in a line atop the buidling with the best line of sight twanging off pairs of arrows supposedly made in the Drakwald IIRC 'the most in tune with the fluff'? To me, the 'feel' of the band is mooching around at about the 12" range mark, prefereably at least one floor up, using your mobility (high movement rate + high initiative) to whittle the enemy away while still nabbing all the warpstone/treasure/whatever objctive you're chasing.

Basically all I was looking for was advice as to whether playing for style, not min-maxing was enough to keep the cheese at manageable levels for casual gaming.

carik
28-06-2007, 14:21
Well... I guess I would have said the most in tune was playing a high speed warband where everyone has a long-bow or elf-bow, and giving all your heroes shooting skills to allow them to take down more or less anything without closing. I'd also think that the elves probably have their own equivalent to hunting arrows, and that the shadow warriors would probably carry them, so that stays in line with fluff anyway.

The problem for me is basically that you can easily end up with a warband that no one can catch up to, and no one can outshoot.

As for my opinion on casual gaming... I'd ask myself the question "Would I be willing to play against this warband, and would anyone else get mad at the player?" If the answers are "yes" and "no," it's good enough. Personally, I don't see a reason an an elf warband couldn't be played reasonably.

Inquisitor Konig
07-07-2007, 00:35
I think just taking two Shadow Walkers is a good start and then not maxing out on quick shot heros is another good idea to reduce the cheese...

For instance I have a Carnival of Chaos warband that has access to the most broken skill in the game Nurgle's Rot. To avoid killing entire warbands with a single modle and pissing everyone else off... I simply do not take it. Easy right? The warband is still good without it.

carik
09-07-2007, 14:47
Precisely. The problem isn't that the warband is inherently unbalanced, it's that it encourages players to play in an unbalanced way.

(Personally, I'm bad at resisting temptation, so I won't be playing my Elves in Mordheim...)

Boehm
22-09-2007, 19:00
Precisely. The problem isn't that the warband is inherently unbalanced, it's that it encourages players to play in an unbalanced way.

(Personally, I'm bad at resisting temptation, so I won't be playing my Elves in Mordheim...)

Without actually having played against them I would say there theres a couple of obvious counter strategies!? ....

1) Move forward continously using "hiding" ...that way they cant shoot you ...

2) Overwhelm them with your own firepower/magic ...if they havent taken up high ground they must shoot at the nearest target, so throw out a couple of tough/cheap flesh-shields infront of your own Quickshot-ranged guys ...ei. bearlings work wonderfully if you are playing dwarf! and I would assume the same is the case of ratogres...

3) "If the elves have taken up a high position just waiting to rain death upon you when you approach" - DONT!! ...If they think its fun to just sit around in a building ...so can you! Let him come to you if he wants to fight...

claus

Festus
22-09-2007, 21:37
Hi

The easiest way to balance the Shadow Elves is to deny them Henchmen.

Yes, you heard right. Only heroes.

That way, they will be badly outnumbered by any gang they face: The better they become, the more warriors are in the opposing gangs. It will keep being a close game to shoot the enemy before they bring you to the blade.

A simple solution for a complex problem, really...

...and it helps if the Elves are played by a mature gamer - and not some youth bent on *pissing contests*.

Festus

Leonathion
17-10-2007, 22:15
Hi! Nice little thread you all got started here. I wanna do a mordheim shadowwarriors band, even bought the models and doing the list now (the new alith is sweet! havent got it yet though) but Ill be mainly playing dark elves so I think ill stay out of the only heroes style. NIce to se some tactics in the text also. Youst wanted to say hi really...

:rolleyes:

unwanted
17-10-2007, 22:29
Well, welcome to this little corner of Warseer.

Let us see your list and, when you get that far, your models :D

Cheers, unwanted.

Leonathion
18-10-2007, 19:29
Yeah ok Ill give you a list ;)

Shadow Master 135 (Alith Anar model)
Sword, Elfbow, Light armour

Shadow weaver 55 (New plastic mage modell)

Shadow-walker 90 (Old Quest Hero modell)
Sword, Longbow, Light armour

Shadow Warrior 60 (New SW modell)
Sword, Longbow

Shadow Warrior 60 (New SW modell)
Sword, Longbow

Shadow Warrior Novice 45 (Old SW modell)
Sword, Bow

Shadow Warrior Novice 55 (Old SW modell)
Sword, Bow, Helmet

--- 500 pts

Eventually ill give them some more equipment but part of mordheim IMO is seing your warband evolve. :) The question is though... is it cheesy? :cheese:

BigRob
19-10-2007, 08:07
Its not so bad, the lack of heroes means you will progress far slower while the armour is costly and ineffective (ditch both suits of L.A and the helmet and you've got another Novice with sword and bow!)

Cheesewise, its in the eye of the beholder. With a proper amount of terrain no shooting will ever be completly dominant.

Shadow Master 95
Sword, Longbow

Shadow Walker 70
Sword, Longbow

Shadow Walker 70
Sword, Longbow

Shadow Walker 70
Sword, Longbow

Shadow Weaver 70
Longbow

Shadow Warrior 60
Sword, Longbow

Shadow Warrior 60
Sword, Longbow

Total cost 495, 5 Heores, 2 Henchmen and a whole lot of shooting and CC power. Clever deployment and the high M and I will let me move to control areas with missile fire, diverting the foe where I want them. Mass charges, with the high weapon skill and parry rerolls will crush the survivors.

Later Purchases may include extra swords as secondary weapons, Helmets, Lucky Charms, Hunting Arrows and more Shadow Warriors. I will also be hoping for the lads got talent and plenty of handy skills like Quick Shot and Sniper. I'm not expecting much from the Weaver, he is there for hero duties like working terrain, but I might get lucky and get Pool of Shadow (hello sniper!)

As an amusing side note, I can also hire the Tilean Marksman and the Elf Ranger :)

Questions:
This is exactly the same tactics I would use with my Rieklanders, are they broken too?
Secondly, How are the Shadow warriors broken and the skaven not broken (20 slings/2 clubs of death)?
Finaly, with so few models, I will rout very easily, a weakness in the warband perhaps?

Harliquine
01-11-2007, 21:47
Never really saw the elves as that unbalancing. Shooting armies like the elves seem to be untouchable but those melee armies can get much faster overall and tend to have more higher strength attacks and more high toughness models. They won't fail a route test nearly as fast as an elf warband will.

Just build the warband to what you want for their story. If your group really feels that they are that unbalanced then switch warbands for a while. Try something new. I've got dark elves, shadow elves, dwarves, lizard men, undead, orks, and 2 human warbands myself.

The most challenging warband for me to play with so far has been undead and the hardest to win against was the possessed with my dark elves. I lost that game by the way with my strength 4 shooting maddness from the roof tops against just 2 models the possessed with toughness 5 and a 15" run/charge. All I managed to take out was a few of his henchmen before I had to route.