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SquishySquig
25-06-2007, 22:16
:skull: Just thought I would post this here. From GD Baltimore.:skull:
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c160/SquishySquig/Ork20Bomber2C20perhaps.jpg

Charax
25-06-2007, 23:35
Niiiice. Orky ultra-heavy? I count 8 twinlinked shootas, one nose gun (another TLBS?) 6 rokkits and 2 Bombs

orangesm
26-06-2007, 02:20
Where do you come up with the Rokkit numbers?

Charax
26-06-2007, 02:57
I assumed the three things around the turbines are rokkits (seems like somewhere an Ork would put them). they might be part of the turbines though (but I like Rokkits)

Personally I would give an Ork ultra-heavy a TON of Grot Bombs

fattdex
26-06-2007, 03:32
it definitely stands out from the fighta bomma, when i was playing against orks i was getting the two types of planes confused because they look roughly similar. I was psyched to get into a tailing position before i realised it was a fighta bomber and was promptly shot down in its rear arc :P

Kymmerus
26-06-2007, 03:38
Proppa plane dat.... no, wait! Still needs more dakka!! :D It looks like it could hold a fair number of orks... anyone think it could deploy troops? (Personally I think the GW metal Epic Ork landas are a proppa orky troop lander) Though this could also be a totally different variant on the "Ultra-heavy" in that its purely for putting out as much gunfire at enemy fighters as possible...

Still learning
26-06-2007, 10:49
looks a dad too heavy !

Mahwell Skel
26-06-2007, 13:10
Any nooz on wevver Def Koptas will feature?

Epic A includes death coptas as a skimmer choice for Orks so are they an option for AI. I assume they move alot differently than proper flyers as in slower but more manouverable. What about heavy Koptas in a Hind Gunship Style? Dats Orkey Dat is!

fattdex
26-06-2007, 13:23
too small and slow for a mach 1 speed game i reckon

HarkonGreywolf
26-06-2007, 23:39
It is a shame as I was looking at the Epic Deth Koptas to use as my Grot Bombs! :D

But it would be fun to have them as an irritant factor against another air force! LOL! Like wasps buzzing an elephant!!

That Ork Concept sketch shows promise, but what do you reckon the chances of it actually making the grade?
(Needless to say I'll probably be making my own from a plastic kit of some sort! :D After all I don't want any uniformity in my Orky Air Waagh! Do I?)

HG

Darnok
26-06-2007, 23:54
Proppa plane dat.... no, wait! Still needs more dakka!! :D It looks like it could hold a fair number of orks... anyone think it could deploy troops?

THere is possible room for transport capabilities in those sketches, so it might turn out as a (very) heavy Ork transport. But don't hold your breath, as FW just gave you the harbinger, a super heavy bomber, for a force without any transports at all.


Any nooz on wevver Def Koptas will feature?

No news, no. BUt I doubt they will ever play a role in AI. Death Koptas are a single Ork "flyer", merely able to match the speed of a jetbike, so far away from any jetplane out there. They have their place in 40K and Epic, but not in AI.

Witchfire
28-06-2007, 19:13
I hope this comes out soon. Ork players only have 2 crafts+grot bombs at the moment while tau and imperials have plenty of vareity. Any news on a release date?

Darnok
28-06-2007, 19:43
Any news on a release date?

Between the first sights of the WIP Harbinger and its release were about three months. I don't know how fast FW works form concepts to finished model, but you could add another one or two months. Or assume, that the "three months window" applies for FW as well, which would mean that after the first hints the model is out in the next twelve weeks.

In short: don't hold your breath, but I assume the first pictures of the actual model on GD UK with a release some weeks later.

Witchfire
28-06-2007, 20:32
ok, cool. its cheaper to buy your FW models in one go but i suppose getting started with playing orks straight away then adding that beauty to my force at a later date is better than waiting to get a petty saving...

Tyra_Nid
30-06-2007, 11:57
its cheaper to buy your FW models in one go

Really? Postage is a fixed percentage with any sized order (unless you go over the 250 pound mark...)

fluffy05
02-07-2007, 06:53
What a cool concept Sketch. Very Orky!

HarkonGreywolf
02-07-2007, 22:32
My newly ordered plastic 'planes should be here by this weekend and so the "HG Orky Concept 'Eavy Bomma" may well get some work done on it.

Not sure whether I'll follow the Concept Sketch above or just use it as inspiration, probably a bit of both actually.

Anyone got any idea how big this should be?
As big as the Manta? Smaller? Longer? (Give measurements if possible please, I don't have access to the Manta for size comparisons!)
Give us a clue! ;)

HG

Tyra_Nid
03-07-2007, 12:03
Nowhere near as big as a manta. I would say Marauder size, max. Maybe approaching Thunderhawk size in its depth...

Darnok
03-07-2007, 13:04
Anyone got any idea how big this should be?
As big as the Manta? Smaller? Longer? (Give measurements if possible please, I don't have access to the Manta for size comparisons!)
Give us a clue! ;)

I saw a BL comic some time ago, named "Deff Skwadron" (or so), and it featured a super plane far larger than a Manta. So you can build yours as big as you want. Just be careful with the detailing - it should look like a massive construct in comparison to normal models, but not like a plane made in a bigger scale with some bits added. It has to "feel" like it fits into the AI/Epic scale.

HarkonGreywolf
03-07-2007, 20:21
Thanks guys,

There's no problem with it looking like my other planes, they will all look very small in comparison with this monster! :D

And I too think it should be sizeable. After all it's gotta have a lot of "Da Boyz" in it, ain't it!?

I'll keep you all appraised of progress/WIP/ thoughts etc if you're interested?

HG

Darnok
04-07-2007, 17:36
I'll keep you all appraised of progress/WIP/ thoughts etc if you're interested?

Please do so, I'd follow with great interest. :)

HarkonGreywolf
06-07-2007, 20:51
OK they arrived today and they're enormous compared to my previous purchases!

I will try and get some comparative shots up as and when so you can give me some ideas about where I should go with the Orky Soopa Bomma (or two even!)

HG

HarkonGreywolf
07-07-2007, 00:01
Here we go,
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i63/SWDWHS/Aeronautica%20Imperialis/ComparativeOrkySoopaBomma01.jpg

Da Red Barron is on the very left and a Fighta Bomma and Grot Bomb (yep, the FW Grot Bomb snapped off the bomma! :( ) on the far right.
These are made from 1:350th kits.

The rest are:
left - white = Revell 1:390th scale Boeing 747
middle - white = Sky Giants 1:480th scale Galaxy Transport
right - green = Sky Giants 1:320th scale B-52 Stratofortress

I think I may combine two to get the bulk of the body right, I'll have to have a play and see what might fit.

Looks promising though.

HG

broodjeork
07-07-2007, 23:16
this antire thread reminds me of the deathsquadron comic on ork fighta planes,
and ofcourse da sekret wepon thats kinda what would be coul as fluff for da hopefully 'uge thing

HarkonGreywolf
08-07-2007, 18:19
You are right of course, and its one of my favourite old Comic stories from the "Old Days"!! I have to an extent modelled my Ork Air Force on that Random Orkiness approach, and so far none of my 'planes are exactly the same as any other, similarities yes, but sufficiently different to be very Orky!

It's why I'm asking for ideas from people here as to where I go with the Soopa Bomma. I'm not sure exactly what I'm going to do, and thought there might be some good ideas floating around out there.

I'm particulary interested in the options regarding numbers of guns etc and potential Fire Arcs.
Do I go with the same basic set-up as the Tau Manta and Chaos Harbinger? Perhaps somewhere in between the two?

Any comments and suggestions will be considered here.

HG

Brimstone
08-07-2007, 18:35
It's got to be a biplane :cool:

The ork soopa bomma should probably combine the bombing ability of the Harbinger and the defensive fire of the Manta.

HarkonGreywolf
08-07-2007, 18:40
Thanks Brimmy!
Yeah a Bi-plane is a thought eh?
;)
A really Big Brother version of Da Red Barrun! LOL

I'll look at the mixing of the two current Mega's.

BTW Can you give me the dimensions of the Tau Manta? I'll then have some guidleines when I'm Chopping and Cut'N'Shutting!

HG

Brimstone
08-07-2007, 19:16
BTW Can you give me the dimensions of the Tau Manta? I'll then have some guidleines when I'm Chopping and Cut'N'Shutting!

Of course it's 165mm wide, 125mm long and 30mm high.

What made me think of a biplane is the galaxy with the wing mounts and the wheel mounts looking similar. A grot bomb carrier would also be good.

Some images to inspire you.

http://www.pbase.com/brimstone/image/81884480.jpg
http://www.pbase.com/brimstone/image/81884484.jpg

Kymmerus
08-07-2007, 19:24
My personal take on an ork Soopa Plane is that it should be a Dakka-Fortress...

I take the Tau Manta as being a multirole platform... it does do everything quite well... the Harbinger is first and foremost a bomber...

The orks already on their Forgeworld fighta bommer have lots of foward firing guns, and TWO turrets modelled (there is that small snotty, I presume, turret on the back) I get the impression that the orky answer, even in the air, is more dakka!!! :p

Having turrets able to cover every firing arc seems oh so natural on a big ork plane... the orks like to get up close and personal and although bombs make a nice satisfying boom I can't see them having an aircraft with bombing as its focus.

Landing troops and Dakka is what I would expect a big ork plane to do... with only maybe a token concession to an optional bomb loadout... I get in my mind a big slow moving solidly built ork plane that spews shoota rounds anywhere and everywhere.... for attacking ground it would have some Rokkits, Grot bombs and maybe some Storm Boy jump troops... Otherwise its going to be strafing... and in style!!! :evilgrin:

For more specific stats well maybe something like:

Manouvre: Low
Max Speed: 4
Min Speed: 1
Max Altitude: 7
Thrust: 1
Hits: 16
Transport: 10 (Upgradeable to Jump Troops)

Special Rule: Dakka Detonation, The Ork Dakka Fortress is loaded to the gills with rediculous (even by ork standards!) Amounts of ammunition. Any hit which scores extra additional damage against the Dakka-Fortress rolls a D6. On a 4+ the total of the extra damage hit is doubled.

(Example if an Eldar Pulsar strikes getting extra damage, and now rolls a D6 for Dakka detonation receiving a 4, a total of 4 Hits of damage are taken by the Dakka-Fortress as a result of the extra damage Pulsar shot.)

** Could consider a successful Dakka Detonation as changing all the plane's guns over to a finite amout of ammo as well...

Front Arc: 12-8-4 ul
Sides: 12-8-4 (Left/Right same altitude and down) ul
Up: 8-4-1 (All Around Up) ul
Rear: 8-4-1 (same altitude only) ul
** All guns damage on a 5+ and have unlimited ammo

Additional Weapon Loads:

#1
Rokkits: Front 0-2-1 Ammo 4
Grot Bombs: x2

#2
Grot Bombs x4

#3
Bombs: Rear 6-0-0

Not sure about the points on something like that... but thought I'd jot down my thoughts on what I think would make a cool ork Soopa....

Charax
08-07-2007, 19:38
I think Kymmerus' take on the stats is far, far more reasonable than taking the best parts of two specialist aircraft and adding them together. it should probably have more hits, though, as it looks like the model is going to be quite a bit larger than a Manta or Harbinger. 18 hits seems reasonable, especially with the Dakka Detonation rule.

for the points cost, somewhere in the region of 112 points +14 for an additional weapons load. This thing is big and has a ton of ul weapons (unlike the Manta, which has none, and the Harbinger only has a few) - the only UL weapons among Ork aircraft, hence the large cost.

Kymmerus
08-07-2007, 20:01
Now I remember what I'm thinking about! An AC-130 Gunship... that just screams orky in concept!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=DpyFMEKQyrk (You Tube AC-130 Video)

I certainly like the look of those Pics that Brimstone Posted... particularly the 2nd one... if anyone is going to put a battleship or a submarine into the skies its going to be some crazed ork mek...

HarkonGreywolf
08-07-2007, 21:43
Damn, Kymmerus, that link is just going Unavailable on me!

Thanks for the images Brimmy, and the stats and ideas Ky.

Not too enthused by the Dakka-detonation! LOL But I see why you suggested it. I'll consider it, but at the risk of sounding petulant a few lucky rolls and the Big Beggar will be downed completely! It would only take 4 or 5 lucky shots to do it too! That may be too vulnerable!

Charax, the points dont look too bad, it may not be much bigger than the Manta, certainly could be slightly longer but much much narrower and less overall bulk.

I'll have a play and see what I can come up with.
Maybe tone down the Dakka Detonation to 1 extra hit? So normal Hit +2 instead of +1? Whaddya reckon?

And I do like the idea of a Dakka Gunship rather than a Soopa Heavy Bomma, but it will need a bigger Bomb capability than the Fighta Bomma, even Orks wouldn't miss that opportunity!

Hmmm, would mean me buying a whole new lot of Grot Bombs from FW too, have to think about that!

HG

Charax
08-07-2007, 22:50
If you don't like the idea of Dakka Detonation adding to the number of hits caused, why not say it decreases the required Extra Damage roll by 1, to a minimum of 2+?

Skystrike Missiles, Heavy Flak and Lascannons become Extra Damage 5+
Manticores and Grot Bombs become Extra Damage 4+ (as you'd expect from something that big)
Pulsars become Extra Damage 3+ (but then again, Vampire Hunters are designed to take out large craft)

There you go, not overpowering by any means, no extra hits being automatically caused, just a higher chance of causing those extra hits

Kymmerus
08-07-2007, 23:45
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpyFMEKQyrk

Ooops... try that it should work now... my bad... think I accidentally deleted part of the URL in the previous post...

I was figuring to have the Dakka detonation being pretty nasty... the other thought that was kinda floating around in my mind could be that Dakka Detonation can only happen once, cause the 4 points of damage and then change all the weapons over to finite, though still high, (maybe 6-8?) Rounds of Ammo for each gun system.

Though I do like Charax's thoughts on decreasing the extra damage roll by 1 though...

Yeah looking through the book based upon the other bombers something for bombs like 16-0-0 or 24-0-0 would be reasonable... maybe an option combining bombs and grots and rokkits and grots... maybe 6 grot bombs and 2 Rokkits at 0-2-1 or 4 Rokkits at 0-4-2 instead?

Charax
08-07-2007, 23:56
even a Harbinger only has 26-0-0 bombs as standard, and this really shouldn't be better at bombing than a specialist Macrobomber.

2 sets of 8-0-0 bombs with 1 ammo each should be reasonable. If you want to combine firepower against ground targets that's easily possible with existing rules. - just fire everything you have at the target.

How about two large Grot Bombs - Grot Missiles, perhaps (perfectly possible with the existing rules, just up the thrust to 4 and give it firepower 2. If you want to make Harkon really happy you could specify that the Grot Bomb can only collide with enemies within 3" of the front arc)

Charax
09-07-2007, 01:05
New reply 'cos this is LONG.
I whipped up the stats in Excel so they're easier to look at - here are Kymmerus' original stats with my Dakka Detonation rule.
http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/264/dakka1ls1.jpg
Looking at that, it seems plainly obvious to me that it is way overpowered, to the point where it's not even funny anymore. It has, as standard, 4 unlimited-ammo weapons and a total of 40 points of short-range firepower that will never, ever run out of ammo. That is wrong. So I tweaked around the stats a little and came up with something I think is a little fairer without reducing the firepower too much, keeping it in line with the other Ultra-heavies except - being Orky - it has more options.
http://img47.imageshack.us/img47/5585/dakka2nm9.jpg

It may seem, at first glance, that it's been nerfed rather heavily. Admittedly, it's had some pretty major reductions in things like firepower, and the low ammo and revamped Dakka Detonation rule mean that it's gone from potentially unlimited firepower to having to count the shots, but I think these are justified whe balanced against other ultra-heavy (10+ hit) flyers. For example:
- It has a transport capacity, the Harbinger does not. It's transport capacity is half that of a Manta, and almost twice that of a Thunderhawk.
- The only unlimited-range weapons on an ultraheavy flyer are the Harbinger's autocannons. the Dakka fortress carries FAR more guns than the Harbinger does.
- It's the largest flyer in AI. It only ever takes 2 hits from an attack, so it'll take at least 9 extremely lucky shots to down it.
- It has more optional weapons loadouts than any other unit in AI, making the exact confguration unpredictable
- It is an excellent multirole aircraft - the Harbinger is basically only good at bombing, the Manta is fairly food at either role if it takes Seeker missiles. With loadouts 3 or 4 the Dakka Fortress is excellent in both capacities.
- It has the highest long-range firepower of any Ultraheavy flyer except an upgraded Manta.

For points values, I think my version merits a 124 point value with +16 for an additional weapon loadout. I cannot really put a price on Kymmerus' version because, having seen the stats in comparison with existing craft, I think it's more something you'd base a scenario around rather than taking in a fleet. considering it's fantastic long-range firepower and unlimited ammo supply 160+ points would seem fair.

Kymmerus
09-07-2007, 04:58
@ Charax: Putting things in excel format helps tremendously on figuring stats for these things! I can definately see some of the flaws with the unlimited ammo and the side and rear gun values... kinda figured it was over the top and why I cooked up the originally harsher Dakka Detonation rule. (Though +1 to the chance for extra damage is IMHO more elegant)

One thought now that I'm remembering the AC-130 is perhaps to keep the side weapons at 12-8-4 unlimited but ground attack only and consequently forgo all standard (non-grot variety) bombs. (My previous thoughts on bombs were due to my thinking that the Harbinger carried bombs with 64-0-0 ratings standard hehehe oops :eek: )

I'm liking the refined Charax version alot.. :evilgrin: Taking ammo away with your revised Dakka Detonation makes sense... though I'm still partial to it coming onto the table with unlimited ammo (but having that go away and down fast with increasing damage) IE you don't want one of these things getting on target undamaged or you'll have a bad day... though being pokey and hitty enough to have "SHOOT ME!" Written all over it... again just like to think of the orky joy that would come with unlimited ammo, but I do see it adding quite a bit to the plane's cost...

Ideally I'd also like to see the Ork Soopa plane being able to be fielded in comparatively large numbers, IE for every 2 fully loaded Tau Mantas you could expect to see 3 Dakka-fortresses.... and that would mean a pts value of ~73-75 pts fully loaded... which would mean even a bit more hitting with the nerf bat...

Hopefully the next time I play AI I can give a proxied Dakka-fortress a go and see how our rules thoughts play out :D and whether anyone likes playing against it....

Charax
09-07-2007, 09:44
I really don't like ul weapons - for a start they're rare as dragon's teeth, and secondly they have a knock-on effect on things like Victory points. They also don't seem justified when things like energy weapons only tend to have a couple of shots in the game.

However, I do understand where you're coming from with wanting the DF to have ul weapons, so I've tweaked it again. I'd seperate the Soopa plane and Dakka Fortress into two seperate aircraft, the SP being what is represented by the concept art and the DF represented by Harkon's model (which has deviated from the concept quite a bit, and should probably be split off into it's own thread) - the SP will fall within the 75-point bracket while the DF can be as big and nasty as we like (within reason).

Anyhow, revised stats:

http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/6264/dakka3ab5.jpg

So, still no ul weapons, but greatly increased ammo for the forward Kannons and the Quad Big Shootas. Rather than remove the bombs and increase the wing firepower I combined both wing turrets into a single all-round weapon mounting. As almost all ground targets only have 2 hits that should be plenty of firepower to deal with incidental threats, and for specific bombing missions it has the option for bomb payloads as well. I changed the type to Bomber because it fits the description of one - a really large craft. All in all, it's pretty dangerous (remember, weapons on Up or Down mountings can fire at the same altitude as the aircraft too).

The Dakka Fortress is best used for low-altitude bombing runs, where it's weak underbelly is not exposed to other aircraft. It can take care of itself against most ground defences and any aircraft coming at it from the front have to deal with 20-12-4 firepower. How's that for Dakka?

Now, for the Soopa plane.

Referring back to the concept sketch it doesn't actually look that big, probably about the size of a Thunderhawk rather than a Manta. Making it Thunderhawk-sized would also help in reducing it's cost to the 75-point range - obviously, it has far more weaponry than a thunderhawk, but nowhere near the same as a Manta or the Dakka Fortress:

http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/5568/dakka4pd3.jpg

At 8 hits it's still the heaviest non-Ultraheavy craft there is, and it easily outguns most conventional aircraft.
While the firepower and ammo counts may seem a little low, there are lots of overlapping fire arcs, especially for enemies on the same altitude level, who can potentially get hit by 28-14-0 firepower from the front. With these revised stats I didn't think the Dakka Detonation rule was needed, but likewise you don't need to sacrifice firepower to take Rokkits anymore.

The Bottom wing guns take into account the belly turret, hence the larger firepower. What price for this great big lumbering aircraft? only 48 points +12 for an additional weapons load, that gives you 3 (almost 4) upgraded soopa-FBs for every upgraded Manta

HarkonGreywolf
09-07-2007, 13:22
I like what you guys have done so far.
My only comments would have been that the Dakka and Soopa should have at least as much Ammo as a normal FB considering the comparative sizes. But you seem to have addressed that point, at least some of the way, in the latest attempts.

I will have to wait until I get home tonight to check out the stats properly.
And I also like the idea of a Soopa Bomma and a Dakka Fortress, very Orky types of distinctions there.

Cheers guys

HG