PDA

View Full Version : Flanking



Drogmir
27-06-2007, 06:28
One thing I don't really get about flanking is...

Let's say I had a group of 5*4 Swordsmen that makes up 20

and say I got charged by both Chaos Knights at the side and Warriors up front.

Do I have to focus on the warriors first and then turn to the knights counting as a movement?

Can I choose?

!Help! And if you give me reference pages I have the collectors edition where there are more pages I believe.

Enoshima
27-06-2007, 07:23
you fight with both at the same time.

the one that declared charge first (warriors or knights) is the first to attack.
Keep note of the casualties (seperate for front and flank !)


then the one that declared second gets to attack again keeping note of the casualties SEPERATLY.

all the casualties are removed from the back row, so if the warriors declared first, the knights might have less frontage when they attack.

Then you see wether you have any in the front that can attack back against the warriors and attack with them, and the same for the side.

In combat resolution, if the knights are at least US5 (aka 3 or more models) you lose your rank bonus and your opponent also gets a +1 on his combat resolution for flank charging.

as for turning to face an enemy, only lone models and skirmishers do that

Drogmir
27-06-2007, 08:26
you fight with both at the same time.

the one that declared charge first (warriors or knights) is the first to attack.
Keep note of the casualties (seperate for front and flank !)


then the one that declared second gets to attack again keeping note of the casualties SEPERATLY.

all the casualties are removed from the back row, so if the warriors declared first, the knights might have less frontage when they attack.

Then you see wether you have any in the front that can attack back against the warriors and attack with them, and the same for the side.

In combat resolution, if the knights are at least US5 (aka 3 or more models) you lose your rank bonus and your opponent also gets a +1 on his combat resolution for flank charging.

as for turning to face an enemy, only lone models and skirmishers do that

ah thanks. The rules weren't very clear on that and playing 40K tends to warp your mind. :D

Festus
27-06-2007, 08:32
you fight with both at the same time.
so far, so right ...

the one that declared charge first (warriors or knights) is the first to attack.
Keep note of the casualties (seperate for front and flank !)

then the one that declared second gets to attack again keeping note of the casualties SEPERATLY.

Here the mistakes start: The units who have charged strike first, no sequence necessary, as they will strike with all models who can (i.e. have an enemy touching). If there is any need to set a sequnce (very unlikely), use I instead of charge sequence.


Then you see wether you have any in the front that can attack back against the warriors and attack with them, and the same for the side.
correct again


In combat resolution, if the knights are at least US5 (aka 3 or more models) you lose your rank bonus and your opponent also gets a +1 on his combat resolution for flank charging.
wrong again, I am afraid: Rank Bonus is calculated at the start of the combat phase, so even if there are only 2 knights still standing after blows have benn traded, the rank bonus is lost for this round. Flank Bonus OTOH is counted at the end of the combat, and here you need to have US5 still after fighting.


as for turning to face an enemy, only lone models and skirmishers do that
There are several options:
Modely may turn to face an enemy, but that is purely aesthetics. Units may turn if they won a combat under certain circumstances.

Festus

enyoss
27-06-2007, 13:44
the one that declared charge first (warriors or knights) is the first to attack.
Keep note of the casualties (seperate for front and flank !)


then the one that declared second gets to attack again keeping note of the casualties SEPERATLY.

all the casualties are removed from the back row, so if the warriors declared first, the knights might have less frontage when they attack.

Then you see wether you have any in the front that can attack back against the warriors and attack with them, and the same for the side.


Festus highlighted just about everything but I thought it was worth picking this up specifically.

In this example, any of the knights that could attack at the start of the combat may still attack even if the models they are touching are removed (obviously, if a unit is entirely wiped out then this is kind of academic). This is kind of irrelevant here as all chargers attack at the same time, but I thought it was worth an aside.

Also, in this example, if the knights kill as many models as are in base contact with them then there are no attacks back on the knights. The same goes for the warriors. However, if either unit kills more than they are in contact with, the excess casualties are deducted from fighting models. So if the warriors killed 0 enemy, and the knights killed 12 enemy, the poor enemy unit would be unable to attack back against either the knights (as they killed all 5 they were in combat with) or the warriors (as the other 7 casualties are taken from fighting models i.e. those that would be able to attack the warriors). At least, this is my understanding of how things work, and I seem to remember a similar discussion a while back where most people agreed :).

Well, I hope that helps clear things up rather than muddy them :).

Cheers,

enyoss

JAB
27-06-2007, 14:27
all the casualties are removed from the back row, so if the warriors declared first, the knights might have less frontage when they attack.


While this is encouraged in the rules (though AFAIK not strictly demanded) I have found it much easier to remove the models that actually were killed. This way you can right away see which units can strike back, and all back ranks are still there to be counted at the end of the combat. After combat resolution and break tests, I then replace the killed models with units from the back rank.

JAB
27-06-2007, 14:28
However, if either unit kills more than they are in contact with, the excess casualties are deducted from fighting models. So if the warriors killed 0 enemy, and the knights killed 12 enemy, the poor enemy unit would be unable to attack back against either the knights (as they killed all 5 they were in combat with) or the warriors (as the other 7 casualties are taken from fighting models i.e. those that would be able to attack the warriors). At least, this is my understanding of how things work, and I seem to remember a similar discussion a while back where most people agreed :).

Is this correct? This is not how we play it.

enyoss
27-06-2007, 14:41
While this is encouraged in the rules (though AFAIK not strictly demanded) I have found it much easier to remove the models that actually were killed. This way you can right away see which units can strike back, and all back ranks are still there to be counted at the end of the combat. After combat resolution and break tests, I then replace the killed models with units from the back rank.

This is absolutely the way it should be played. Formations and whatnot should be maintained completely until the 'redress ranks' part of the phase. Of course, most people just speed things up by taking from the back from the off and simply remembering who killed what.


Is this correct? This is not how we play it.

Mmm... reading it over I'm not even sure if that's the way I play it! Well, that's what I get for posting when I should be working. Still, I'll leave it up to attract comments, keep your reply pertinent, and remind myself to think when typing :D. If it gets sufficiently debunked I'll edit it out.

Cheers,

enyoss

Tutore
27-06-2007, 14:46
I'm not sure that enyoss' way to play is taken from a rule in the book; IIRC it's the opponent, not the attacker, that decides which models are slain, if they exceed the number of fighting models. Thus, the 7 models in excess of your example would still fight against the warriors on the front. But I am not sure myself.

Festus
27-06-2007, 18:44
Hi

enyoss is completely correct:

BRB, p.36, right column: Each casualty reduces the number of models that can strike.

enyoss
27-06-2007, 18:46
Hi

enyoss is completely correct:

BRB, p.36, right column: Each casualty reduces the number of models that can strike.

Woohoo :D! I take back my previous grovelling ;). Cheers for coming to my aid Festus.

Cheers,

enyoss

warlord hack'a
27-06-2007, 22:38
and let's face it: when you are so badly beaten that your front row PLUS models from the side will be removed, then you are dead in the water anyway ;-).

DeathlessDraich
28-06-2007, 11:45
Woohoo :D! I take back my previous grovelling ;). Cheers for coming to my aid Festus.

Cheers,

enyoss

Now look here double O seven! :p

There are exceptions - I can think of 4

BTW enyoss is an anagram of noseys?:D

enyoss
28-06-2007, 11:59
Would beastherds be an exception? I mean, in that case the flanking unit would be attacking ungors and therefore the gors to the front of the unit would not be removed as casualties. At least, I think this is how beastherds would work as an exception.



Cheers,

enyoss

Festus
28-06-2007, 14:29
Hi

Yes, there are exceptions - and I wouldn't be astonished if those are exactly 4 like DDraich mentioned. But noone said anything about the special situations in the original post.

No character, no monsters, no mixed units, nothing in the OP.

Festus