PDA

View Full Version : Warhammer Cathay



Lord Setra
15-08-2005, 23:57
Ok I have been thinking about doing something like this for a long time. Now I know there are quite a few incarnations of this army on the net but Im not sure if one has ever been done on Warseer.

I would like to try and develop the whole army book, not just the rules. So would be looking at extending this into the other threads such as Fantasy background and Stories and Art but better to start here. Here I can gauge intrest and we can also start to develop rules.

So what do you guys think?

Icewalker
16-08-2005, 03:01
Chu Ko Nu. You need those guys. The guys who shot off like 4 arrows at a time. They were in AoE2 as the special Chinese unit. Also, just call em' throwing knives and not Shurikens. Shurikens is mostly ninjitsu and mixing Japan and China is a crime (at least in my mind it is). I'm loyal to my country. Mixing it with other countries is a violation of my code of honour. Sorry.

Icewalker
16-08-2005, 15:54
As for the Chu Ko Nu, giving professional bowmen the option of repeater cross-bows seems to fit the bill nicely.
Glad to be of service. It's kind of hard to type while holding onto a fairly fat cat. Anyway, aren't repeater cross-bows limited to 8"? If I recall, Chu Ko Nu are the elite archers with a decent range of at least a bow. I'd make it 14" or something like that. 12 or 16 I think would be best.

Icewalker
17-08-2005, 00:16
According to this information (http://www.arco-iris.com/George/chu-ko-nu.htm), the Chu Ko Nu crossbow was pretty short-ranged.
On second thought, yeah. Pretty short ranged. Could have a bit more of a punch than most Crossbows. Even more than the regular ones I think.

Lord Setra
17-08-2005, 18:24
Yeah that does sound like a good idea for where the repeater cross bow came from so perhapd we could adapt it and use it the way we thought it should be used with the Cathay army.


I know that the Cathay army is not based on the Chiniese army but it may be an idea to use the history of the chiniese army as a basis for some units.

Lord Setra
17-08-2005, 18:49
That sounds good.

Now on your list, can I tweak it and add stuff or would you like us to base the new Cathay list we are working on around it?

High Loremaster
18-08-2005, 02:56
I've also developed a Cathay Army list and a set of magic items for it.

It's based around large units of different kinds of infantry. There are cavalry choices, but they are limited. The list has a lot of war machine choices, including the generic kinds and some unique types such as Flamethrowers, Fire Lances, and single troops armed with grenades. The advantages are the vast amount of choices, but I almost feel there are too many special rules.

Feel free to use any of these ideas to your will, and I can send it to you by email if you want (or post it, but its rather long).

Icewalker
18-08-2005, 15:27
I've also developed a Cathay Army list and a set of magic items for it.

It's based around large units of different kinds of infantry. There are cavalry choices, but they are limited. The list has a lot of war machine choices, including the generic kinds and some unique types such as Flamethrowers, Fire Lances, and single troops armed with grenades. The advantages are the vast amount of choices, but I almost feel there are too many special rules.

Feel free to use any of these ideas to your will, and I can send it to you by email if you want (or post it, but its rather long).
Post it. That's the easiest way. BTW, what time per- oh right, not based off of China. Sorry.

Freak Ona Leash
19-08-2005, 14:37
You could include rules for Samurai-like people in this army. Though, thye might fit in with a Nippon army more...though the flamethrower idea sounds very nice. Rocket launchers would be a nice touch as well...

High Loremaster
20-08-2005, 04:31
Hmm... well I can't submit it, as it is around 20,000 characters, while the maximum is 10,000....

therisnosaurus
20-08-2005, 13:12
oh god noes, not another warhammer armies: china.

they're all the same! ALL THE SAME I TELLS YE!. Please, please come up with something original. I know people have strong beliefs about china and what not but remember THIS IS WARHAMMER FANTASY, not WARHAMMER HISTORICALS. if you took the mage out of that army you could field that as a historical force for the love of god.

I would comment more, but try and get some novel concepts and strats in there instead of just making a weakling empire parody army in the name of historical accuracy

Freak Ona Leash
20-08-2005, 19:44
13th Century France and the Holy Roman Empire?

LordPomposity
20-08-2005, 20:32
The Holy Roman Empire had GRIFFINS?! Fascinating!

There's definately a lot more than wizards with a few of the basic lores of magic separating the Empire and Brettonia from their historical counterparts.

Freak Ona Leash
20-08-2005, 22:35
Sorry to go off-topic, but WAB is actually 5th ed WHFB without the Herohammerness and bitz like Light Infantry/Cavalry and Warbands added on ;)

therisnosaurus
22-08-2005, 00:43
bretonnia is not france. period. it is drawn from early medieval france, england, arthurian myth and a lot made up (grail pilgrims, mounted squire harassing cav etc ain't magical, didn't exist)

as for the empire, it's rennaisance germany, not the holy roman empire, that's essentialy the whole of the empire, border princes, estalia and tilea put together. once again, rennaisance germany had no swordsmen state stroops (or no regiments thereof) nor did it rely heavily on knights templar, nor did they have steam tanks, helblaster volley guns, flagellants, warrior priests (I think...) greatswords (also a guess here) and so forth. all of those are pretty much purely fantastical, WHILE still being derived or in essence taken from history- the catholicism/protestantism feud that came up in the SOC for example.

your's however has mages. Oh dear woop. maybe the having criminal scum fight in a battle is a little fantastical, but not in the warhammer way.

and no, warhammer fantasy is NOT fething historical + magic. are ogres mongols? no same fighting style? no, are CD's russians? no, same fighting style? no, are lizardmen aztecs/incas? no, same figthing style? no. Get it out of your system that FB is just a fantasticalisation of ancient battles. they are COMPLETELY different games and the armies are unique, while being derived, emphaisis on DERIVED from a multitude of historical concepts. And if you go on about how there used to be cathay/nippon lists like yours, hell there used to be chaos squats and they were both in the late 1980's


get some inspiration please, start thinking outside the square.

therisnosaurus
22-08-2005, 06:16
actually, I'd rather not have samurai, nor people expelling forces from their anuses at all. I'd like a fantasy army, which you have failed horribly to provide

I think you also mistake my exaggerated response for fact in the sense that I do not despise your list, I just think it isn't warhammer fantasy. it neither fits with the background nor does it make sence as an army list. albeit I have not seen any fluff justification as of yet, but from what I can see you're just gonna re-hash the historical reason china had those various units in its army and maybe add a reference or two to fishmen or something similar. Your list is fairly balanced, is not overpowered in any one area and is diverse enough that you could make a couple of different styled armies out of it. However it is also stereotypical, bland, identical in strategy and unit types (mostly) to the empire, lacking in any creative use of the fantasy genre and, bluntly, utterly uninspiring. even if you made a GW standard miniatures line and a loverly army book to go with this, you would not sell copies to ANYONE but die hard china historical fans. And the true test of whether an army is good is not whether you like it but whether, given the production capability of GW it would sell, and sell well. the fact that people would be willing to part with hard earned money to play with your list tells a whole lot more than China fanboys going 'YAY! CHOKUNU!"
nor will I buy the 'it's not from one exact historical period'. not only does that not do your imagination much credit, it also makes no bleeding sense at all anyhow. Comparable would be having barbarians, legionaires, handgunner/pikemen regiments and assault infantry in the empire army. the empire army STEMS from ONE period- the rennaisance, and it's basic units are derived from there- spearmen, handgunners, pistoliers and superheavy knights mainly. but then you have swordsmen, halberdiers, greatswords, flagellants and so forth, to name but a few which never, ever featured in german history (okay, you could say swordsmen represent roman legionaires, but that's really, really stretching it... :P)

oh, and to prove I'm not just flaming, would you like a few suggestions on how to fantasticalise your list? not to be cruel or anything, but at the moment a three year old could probably give you some ideas.

therisnosaurus
22-08-2005, 08:00
hey, I'm sureyou're imagination is just as good, you just don't really want to use it. Which is a pity. I'll have a brainstorm in class today to see what I can pull out of my **** that's fairly fantasy oriented and yet still fits with your theme, I'm also gonna make a few comments on mechanical and typo thingies that bug me.

oh, and the reason I seem a little biased here is cause I am, I've been working on a cathay army for 4 years now and I'm getting sick of all these similar cathay lists popping up week after week that are just china wannabes. If you would like to gaze upon the majesty of a TRUE cathay army book, feel free to email me (thereisnosaurus@gmail.com) and I shall send you a copy *ahem* /bragging .

therisnosaurus
22-08-2005, 14:45
okay, just a quicky here. this is less inspiration more quick fixing stuff


1) drop the default sword/shield/ LA on warrior characters, no other race has it and it stops people customising to suit their theme/background. If you have a fluff justification, fine, if not, get rid of them

2) find a better name than swashbuckler, it has too many piratical and maritime conotations. Maybe chieftain, hero or battlemaster, for generics. not very good with names there, but I'm sure you can beat swashbuckler

3) delete the duplicate warlord option under swashbuckler

4)why does the mage lord have BS4? background justification would be handy, either that or drop it to 3. maybe push toughness to 4 like the other human mage lords?

5) alchemist, raise the WS to 3, heroes should be at least the race standard and hell, your MAGES are WS 3 so I don't see why mr fireworks should be less

6) okay, for the core troops, conscripts are fine but drop the swords+ shields and give them a polearm (spear or halberd). chinese peasants couldn't afford a sword, let alone a suit of armor. MAYBE have shields as an option, but don't push it. they should also have either a musician or champion, as just beacuse they're peasants doesn't mean they can't play the drums or pipes. or have the occasional exceptional character either.

7) state troops, are just that, empire state troops. try and make them a bit different. change the stats, maybe give a unit cathayan longswords to tie in with the canon, drop the sword+ shield WS4 unit, if you want to be historicaly fair, Sword+ shield infantry were rare if not non-existant. also, maybe give them a LD based rule to represent dicipline- can re-roll first failed LD based check per game or something like that. These guys have seen a good bit of action, make it show

8) change the bowmen to repeater crossbowmen. don't have both. RXBOWS fluffwise originated in cathay, so you may as well have them (my version of the list has skirmishing cahps with 18" range, no move and fire penalty RXbows) be different from the empire that you have only 1 basic missile unit, not 3.

9) arquebusiers. can I have a fluff justification for BS4? considering empire handgunners train daily and drill regularly and are only BS3, you should have a good reason for these guys being BS4. also, they should be far more points. elves with longbows are 12 points, these guys have +1 strength and AP over them, albeit at a loss of a few useless stats. pump them up to 12 points AT LEAST if you're going to keep them BS4

10)
criminal scum shouldn't cause fear, I'd say make them fairly determined to win cause if they don't they die. not unbreakable, too powerful on a skirmishing unit, but something that represents their no hoper situation. great weapons should also only be 2 points, not 4.

11) autopanic is too good on the rocket launcher. especialy as it will almost always hit. maybe change it to 2d6 hits and misfires on a double 1 or 6, no autopanic

12) make the monks more funky. considering they can supposedly breathe fire, walk on water, kill people by either touching them or just looking at them and they scare the crap out of even the ogres, your interpretation hardly does them justice. also, as another chap suggested, say throwing stars, not shuriken. I wish the japnuts would quit claiming stars as their own, they didn't even COME from japan originally (they came from india)

okay, that's most of the mechanical stuff done, next up: fantasising

Raging Llama
25-08-2005, 12:41
There was some stuff about the fantastical side of Cathay in a short story about some bloke wandering about with ogres not too long ago.

Was (surprisingly) about the time the ogres came out. Can't remember exactly what was in it but there were some wierd references to immagined nonsense in there that might be useful, adding in the monsters and big based beasties and such (my goodness, not one mention of a damn dragon yet).

RGB
27-08-2005, 19:25
Well - er. Whatever TINS says about HRE, The Empire and the Arthurian Bretonnia, he's grasping at straws. They are historical armies with fantasy elements APPROPRIATE to the historical people they represent.

Arthurian legends appropriate to 13th c. Anglo-French? You betcha. What do we have? Bretonnia. Previous editions also included exctensive fluff on the crusades, and had the Noble Arab in it, as well as Repanse de Lyonesse and Someone-or-other's Merry Men Of Sherbois or whatever. You know, the Msr.Hood guys.

The Empire - well, let's see. Elector System? Check. City States? Check. Most powerful state in the old world? Check. Greatswords? You betcha. Knights Templar? Yes, the Teutonic Order and its brother chapters. Flagellants? Not in the 16th century, maybe but flagellants are a staple feature of European history between the 11th and the 15th century, no problem. Warrior Priests? What's that, Pope Julian had a nice set of armour and ruled the seat of Peter from atop his destrier? Yes, he did. Hussites were also full of warrior-priests and also part of the HRE history.

Vampires? Yes, Sylvania. Appropriate to HRE folklore anywhere between the 13th to the 19th century.

Steam Tanks? Yeah, nobody built one, but Leonardo had one planned. You know, the SAME guy who is said to have designed it in WHFB (Leonardo of Miragliano...guess what, a Tilean as well. Charming). Hellblasters are just volley guns taken a notch up, and everyone had volley guns back then, from Italians and Germans to Muscovites and Mongols.

HRE never did extend to Spain (unless the Habsburgs were ruling, but that's because the Habsburgs were mostly Spanish) and it never controlled the Balkans (Border Princes) or even most of Italy (Tilea)

In fact, if you REALLY look at it, aside from the obvious tangibility of magic and the gryphons and the ahistorical and rather silly swordsmen, Warhammer Armies: Empire really is just HRE with magic.

So....you know what....DO copy a historical list. DON'T let imagination run wild. DO keep it in theme and DON'T introduce off-the-cuff stuff into the fluff. Once you're done defining what is appropriate to your setting, you can start gentryfying and finding a niche for your army, both fluff-wise and game-wise.

Just as there are too many fan lists that are historical, there are also many, many lists out there made by people with inane ideas who know nothing about the culture on which they base their armies. They may be fans, they may be deriders, or they may think they're too good and imaginative for that kind of thing.

But really, no, nobody is. The best way to avoid cliche in WFB is to research your army's inspiration culture pretty thoroughly and bring in its native mythology INTO GWs world...because sure as hell, most of the times GW won't even think of doing that.

Well....other than that, TINS is an excellent reviewer and composer of lists and has an uncanny ability of getting point costs right. You just don't have to follow his conceptual ideal of list-writing, that's all.

therisnosaurus
28-08-2005, 08:46
in many areas you're right but I still stand that a historical list will end up both weak and will fail utterly to capture both the imagination and enthusiasm of gamers in general.

I'd also like to point out that BASING things off history is fine, it's COPYING things that I don't quite like. I also pointed out that empire and brettonians are the two armies (barring DOW which aren't really an army as of yet, more a collection of units with no extensive and coherent background) armies MOST based in history.

brettonia are *not* medieval france. they are medieval europe- primarily france and england, with fantasy elements derived from legend, myth and several new elements (grail pilgrims for example) Nurglitch's list is various historical periods of china (and china only), with no mythological back up (yet)- I don't count wizards and priests as myth backup as they exist in every race and are pretty much COMPULSORY for game balance. no- or very little- effort has been put into fitting in with GW canon and as much as I'm a hypocryte here for breaking it on inumerous occasions myself, that does count for something. gameplaywise I'd give this army a 5-6 out of ten, why, because it's too weak, it's like empire without any decent options. background, fluff and fantasy wise it gets a 1. I appreciate that you went to the effort to put in mages and magic items, but other than that I see no evidense of any effort to fit the army in or make it look fancy. RGB also appropriately pointed out that *previous* editions had more historical fluff. that said, you could have used second edition fantasy army lists as warhammer historical armies with a supernatural bent. GW is moving towards more gritty fantasy while keeping the historical references under the skin at the moment, and you should probably keep the same line when developing fan lists. I'm not saying you have to, just that's what will fit in best.

However, i most CERTAINLY agree with RGB on sticking to appropriate fantasy, no sticking thor in the cathayan mythology or having full plate armoured knights. as demonstrated in my version of events, I'm okay with mixing chinese, japanese, korean and indian general background to create a 'cathayan' army. (pure china in gameplay fashion has already been stolen by the skaven) While nippon is a large enough landmass to deserve it's own army, for the sake of actually getting the book finished in the next five years, in my interpretation (or my team's) they can be conglomerated into one general book with cathay as a primary army and nippon as a 'back of book' style addon. Perhaps I have been too harsh, perhaps not. oh well, on to the fun part

Fantasy. here are but a few ideas, mostly from GW canon, but also a few from chinese myth.

1) the big red book. we have references to the celestial dragons, heavenly seer mages, a vast and amazingly rich empire and stone dogs that guard the temples. all fairly interesting and novel aspects to add to your army

2) ogres- there are references to ogres in the imperial army as well as further references to the getting scarier celestial dragon monks. both of these could be used to add spice

3) gw cannon in the dragons bestiary from long ago has references to oriental dragons which are more akin to serpents. obviously to tie in with the chinese style dragons. my take on this was to slightly physically weaken the dragon while giving it a couple of fancy supernatural abilities, but it's your call to what this might mean or whether you include a draconic aspect at all

4) WARRIOR monks (eg ones that use armor/weapons) are more of a japanese thing. chinese monks I believe practiced the art of fighting more for meditation and self defence, so if you want to be true to form and only go off china, stick to purely unarmred fighters, if you have them as warriors and not mystics at all. however, if you are happy to blend mythological aspects then your current incarnations are fine, just not fantasy enough- get some breathing fire, water walking OMG look at the ninja aspects going if only for the uneducatied anime loving masses out there.

5) shoot the handgunners. bring in the magic. enchanted boomsticks, magical fireworks that come alive and run around flambeing opposition and rocket launchers that are powered by fire elementals. Give them a bit of a WOW factor. please :P.

6) mythology- chinese ghosts, ancestor worship, gyonshi vampires (I turned those into the Shigaion, but that's another story) etc. drag it in- wizards that commune with departed souls being tortured in the realm of chaos. chinese spirit exorcists who run around with various fluttering charms, people possessed by their long dead ancestors, animated by a trance induced frenzy. get something WEIRD happening maybe, voodo style freaky stuff you'd see in horror movies, exactly what fits in with WHFB

7) that's about all for now, I can dredge up a good bit more should you need it but as you haven't even bothered to reply to my first comments, I'll wait untill I see continued interests before blowing more time on this

RGB
29-08-2005, 10:27
Well...wow. Rather thorough there.

All I have to add is, get a Chinese friend and ask them to talk about China's history...and/or watch asian-made historical dramas.

Great way to pick out what the natives of the culture remember most.

One example for Cathay would be a strategist hero....one that relies on brainwork and tricks to win. They know the ancient ones by heart in China and it's near-mythological anyway.

And whatever you do, please DON'T put the first thing that comes to the mind of the English-speaker into the list. That way you end up with the endless silliness like "kamikaze" nipponese and "mad mullah" araby armies and "icy wilderness full of bears" kislevites. I think most of my first rant was about that one point even if I never enunciated it properly. research what the culture you're ripping off of thinks about itself, then go and do a list. it will be fresher than a "pure fantasy" one since "pure fantasy" stems almost exclusively from the anglo tradition and hence is very formulaic.

therisnosaurus
29-08-2005, 15:20
Actually, RGB, taking the first thing that comes into your head is a good idea so long as you change it.

for example, if we think china and that brings up the concept 'superhuman bright coloured hadoken launching monks' (dragonball z style here, as nurglitch has so often used this to attempt to discredit opposition), we can take that concept and say, well, that'd doesn't fit into warhammer, so let's make them bitter martial artists with a grudge against x race who train constantly to get vengeance, even killing their own people to get back at x race. Nor does throwin hadoken boogies work either, so let's take GW canon of breathing fire and allow them to, say, swap their close combat attacks for a single strength 4 fire attack that autohits in CC. Also, while flamboyant colours are sometimes used, let's make it a little more interesting, saying they dress only in rough hessian dyed red with the blood of their foes or something similar.

so here we have a unit of monks, armed or unarmed, with eternal hatred of some kind against x race, don't care about friendly units dying (immune to panic) and the flamey fire attack. plus they'd look sexy on the table with their lovely gore drenched robes. not only this but they deeply fit the warhammer background. So hell, they may not have THAT much direct historical background, but it was all originaly derived from a stereyotype yet is pretty much unrecognizeable as being directly related.


the trick is to take everything you can find and alter it rather than only picking things that already fit in.


and yeah, I like the idea of a strategist hero, would be new and make a nice difference to the standard categories. you could also represent this brains over brawn approach as a universal special rule allowing redeployment ( I represented it as a re-roll with some characters but fitted it in with predicitive magic rather than tactics)

Icewalker
31-08-2005, 02:45
Hi

Me again with Chu Ko Nu rules (probably real bad).

Points:12
M:4
WS:3
BS:4
S:3
T:3
W:1
I:3
A:1
Ld:8
Weapons/Armour: Reapeater Crossbow, hand weapon and Light armour.
Options: may have a marksmen who has BS 5 and 2 attacks at 10 points, a muscian at 5 and a standard bearer at 10.

Gethalorre
02-10-2005, 16:52
Hi guys, Rules for Monks, possibly:

Pts: ?
M:5
WS:5
BS:4
S:3
T:3
W:1
I: 6
A:2
Ld: 9
Sv: 4+ or 5+ ward?
Special rules: Killing blow, S2 breath weapon from any one model in the unit in the shooting phase, Skirmish

Uh.. Could be too OTT.


Serpentine dragon:

M:8
WS:4
BS:0
S:5
T:5
W:4
I:4
A:3
Ld: 7


Special: 4+ scaly skin, s4 breath weapon, Mount for a character, +1 dispel/power dice


So, I hope you guys think about this at least.

sneb
04-10-2005, 20:48
I think a Cathay list shouldn't be exclusively Chinese since in the fluff cathay eludes to all far east lands


Your list is pretty good though I think more mythology would make it fit in better:
----
Dragons- Some Chinese dragon like monster for a rare choice would be nice... as in the myths make them not a feroucious as the other WH dragons but more for Protection purposes but still beable to pack a punch(mv: 6 ws:4 bs:0 S:5 T:5 w:4 A:2 I:5 Ld:-- Sv:5+ Wsv: 4+ Unbreakble cannot fly no breath weapon all friedly units in combat within 8" of the dragon may reroll to hit rolls all within the same combat as the dragon get a 6+ ward save)

Swordsmiths: Most of the japanese myths ive heard are about legendary sword makers. Maybe a hero choice with some IGesque doctrines for disigning a sword (Maybe stats along the lines of Ws:5 Bs:0 Str:2 T:3 A:2 I:4 LD:8, not really a soldier but a man who pratices alot with his creations may only take a 2-handed sword (halbred rules) though it could be improved through a process
(like this: Up to 3 upgrades could be chosen: +1 str 10 pts +1 to hit 5 pts Enamies -1 to wound 20 pts takes up two upgrades No armor saves 35 pts takes up three upgrades etc.)
also any unit the swordsmith starts the game attached to gets +1 to hit since they are using his masterpiece weapons

And maybe somehting along the lines of Brentonians Blessing of the lady:

Kammakazzee(sp?): The Cathay may give up the first turn though the enemy would get -1 to hit with shooting at any distance over 12" all guess artillery must subtract d6+d3" from their guess range all scatter weapons must roll an additional D6

Rockets shouldn't be as much unit killers but instead bring panic
Rockets should be only 24" str4 d3 hits Armor Piercing and unit wounded must take a panic test
Any calvary unit *hit* must take a panic test on a 4+
Any calvary unit wounded must take a panic test with -1 to leader ship-- if the amount rolled is more than the mounts(un modified) but less than the riders the unit moves at half speed next turn(main purpose of rockets were to scare calvary and attempt avalanches in mountain passages)

To make up for lack of anti swarm abilities cathy should get something similiar to Hwathaii (sp) basically a flame attack repeating Bolthrower

and of course mongol fast calvary
-----
Just my ideas

Bubble Ghost
04-10-2005, 21:42
Part of what makes GW's imagery so strong is one of the things it's often derided for: their heavy use of archetypes. There's a reason they stick with familiar imagery and themes, and it's not because they aren't creative. It's because a reader's familiarity with the concept gives their creations a depth and resonance that would be impossible for them to achieve otherwise. In other words, it's "fake depth".

Blood-soaked, revenge-obsessed firebreathing monks (for example) come off as crazy and off-the-wall rather than interesting - you might as well not bother with Cathayan monks at all if you're going to deviate that far from the archetype. If anything you end up looking like you're trying too hard to be different, which is a common fantasy pitfall.

PS. Crap! TINS, did you still want that feedback on your Cathay stuff? I kept putting off getting back to you until after I'd read through it, but then I completely forgot until now. I'm useless.

therisnosaurus
05-10-2005, 01:48
yup, still waiting, and I think you have the latest edition. On the monks, that is just showing how far you can run from the achetype while still using it as a 'basis' the CPM cathay project sticks to the steryo/archetypes a little more closely but still moves far enough away that things are recognized as distinctly 'warhammer'

btw, question of interest, did you use any additional historical info for doing the COU list you did, or just base it off existing warhammer canon?

Bubble Ghost
05-10-2005, 02:49
btw, question of interest, did you use any additional historical info for doing the COU list you did, or just base it off existing warhammer canon?

I looked up some info on the Knights Templar to get a name for the hero-level knight, the seneschal. The wolf-kin were sort of historical, in that they were the result of wondering how oppressed down-and-outs would behave if they happened to worship Ulric. That's about it. The rest was already in place, really, it was just a case of adding an extra layer here or there to an already historically-influenced area of background.

therisnosaurus
05-10-2005, 15:59
cool, anyhow, if you don't have the version 6.0 or 6.1 of the rulebook (6.1 preferably) toss me a line and I'll send you one. if you do, I eagerly await your grilling. preferably flamegrilling :P

Emresh
14-10-2005, 01:26
I've always been interested in Cathay and wouldn't mind helping out some, but am caught up in working on Mordheim stuff right now. Anyway, here are some of my initial thoughts on various things.

Overall Fluffy Feel: I don't know why, but I see Cathay a "unintentionally oppresive". ie. while the kingdom as a whole is fabulously wealthy, opulent, and advanced in many ways, the majority of the population are little better than peasant slaves, not because of any overt tyranny on the part of the ruling classes, but simply because the more elite members of society are so removed from their peoples everyday lives that they have no concept of the real practicalities of everyday life for those under them. (hope that makes sense. :p )

Regular Cathayan Troops: Whatever you call them, I'd say give them these weapon options 2 Hand Weapons, Great Weapon, or Repeater Crossbow. Armor should be Light Armor that can be upgraded to Heavy. No Shields (for some reason, shields in a cathay army just doesn't seem right to me.) The armor thing is mainly to show off their wealth factor. Perhaps say that if they are armed with two hand weapons they get +1 armor in HtH and raise the cost of the option. Maybe grant one unit of them per army a magic banner option. Other than that, they should have the same stats as Empire regulars (who are likewise heavilly trained.)

Conscripts: I'm thinking lower WS, BS, and Ld by -1 from the regular troops stats and give them the rule that other Cathayan units suffer no panic when they rout. Equip them with spears and maybe slings (or slings could be an upgrade.) Let them upgrade to light armor. Maybe let them upgrade their slings to bows. Maybe give them a special rule making it harder for them to pass a rout test if the army's general is killed.

Cathayan Cavalry: Same stats and armor options as the Cathayan regulars. May upgrade with barding. Only equipped with hand weapons (maybe crossbows as well, or possibly as an upgrade option?) but have Killing Blow when charging. Magic banner option for one unit.

Cathayan Rocket Teams: Again, these should have the same stats and armor options as the regulars but are only equipped with hand weapons (and their rockets of course ;) ) Rockets should fire in the same manner as a rock lobber (or maybe the Doom Diver is a better example :chrome: ) and use the blast small template, with models directly under the hole taking a S7 hit while other models touched by the marker take a S2 hit, with the unit struck taking a Ld test to avoid being stuck in place for one turn (or some other such rule having to do with the psychological impact on a unit of having an explosive go off in its midst.) Depending on how strong this is, consider making it an up to 2 per choice unit.

Stone Dogs: These should be 0-2 per unit, immune to all psychology, and have a natural 4+ armor save (possibly a ward save as well.) They should be very stong and tough but have a fairly low initiative. They might also cause Fear and/or cause impact hits on the charge ala Ogre units.

Stone Warriors: Similar to the dogs but being more of a ranked unit and not as strong. Might also have the same weapon options as the regulars.

Warrior Monks: Ok, let me just say starting off that I do not agree that they should have no weapons. Why? Because 1. It is very difficult to make an unarmed mini in a combat pose that actually looks good (and I'm not confident of GW's ability to do so.) 2. There are few actuall martial arts schools that did not train in some sort of weapon (if not several) extensively; even the famed Shaolin were quite proficient with several types of weapons and used them extensively on the several occasions they went to war. This has passed on into popular legend here in the west thanks to the Kung Fu tv show and Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, and can be seen in many chinese and honk kong films as well. Ok, that said I think they should be skirmishers with ward saves that count as armed with two hand weapons no matter how the actual model is armed. The best way to handle them might be to give them various "styles" they can switch between in any given turn (rather like wardancers), with abilities like Killing Blow, Breath Fire (give up attacks to make one S2 flaming attack that always strikes first), Walk on Water as though it were normal terrain, Leaping Attacks (allows the second rank to fight as well, ala spears), etc. Otherwise, they should have exceptional stats compared to the other human units in the army.

Assassin Triad: The Eshin learned their arts in Cathay so why not use that? They should be a 0-1 choice with three models (no more, no less). Poisoned Attacks are obvious, as are Skirmish, Scout, a +1 higher WS,I, and A, and possibly give them killing blow. They should have two hand weapons and throwing blades (possible upgrade to dart guns.)

Wizard Priests: These should be alchemists, astromancers, geomancers, and dragon priests all rolled into one. They should have the Heavens, Life, and possibly Fire lores of magic and access to special alchemical equipment in addition to the usual magic items option. They might also have Magic Resistance but I'm not sure on that one.

Cathayan Dragons: Similar to other dragons but no flight, amphibious, faster land speed, and maybe ranged attacks are at -1 to hit it. It should also produce power and dispell dice.

Anyway, that's all I have for now. Good luck! :)

Emresh
27-10-2005, 00:58
I had another thought recently concerning what should be in this army.

First is another core unit that is made up of what are essentially zombies with conscript weapons. These would be dead conscripts animated through magic masks placed on the corps (as they are not worthy of the full transformation into a stone warrior). In a related point, the stone warriors and stone dogs should be handled as undead constructs. All of these would be created by the wizard/priests who's magic options should definately be heavens, life, and death.

Second, their should be a warrior-monk character option (Grandmaster mabey?) that's like a suped up warrior monk with special ability options that can be taken instead of magic items if the player wishes.

These two things combined with my previous suggestions (with lots of detail and clarification work...especially the names and rocket teams :p ) would make the list both interesting and competetive, as well as allowing enough variation for a pplayer to be able to make four very different types of forces:

1. A normal combined force using any combination of units.

2. A professional military force using the Cathayan version of the basic warrior/commander that all armies have, regular cathayan troops, catahayan cavalry, and rocket teams.

3. A cathayan peasent army using the grandmaster, conscripts, and warrior monks.

4. An "undead" army using the wizard/priests, mask-zombies, stone warriors, and stone dogs.

...or at least I think so. :D