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Kotobuki
28-06-2007, 07:24
So, my Local GW store has gotten a frenzy of Blood Bowl going on lately, and I'm thinking I might like to join in. Being that I've got colors and everything set up for a Bretonnian Army I'm doing for WHFB, I'm thinking I may just do them for Blood Bowl as well. I'm not entirely sure which team to use, however.

I'm currently considering Humans, or High Elves. I'm thinking Linemen as peasants, and pretty much everyone else as Squires or Knights. The elves have the same armor as the humans, but their Catcher is S3, as opposed to S2 (that's not a Typo, is it?). And they're more Agile, leading to more 'skilled' players. Kinda knightly.

The Humans do have the advantage of being able to have an Ogre (which doesn't fit thematically, so Imagine an overgrown Bretonnian in full armor, as opposed to Blood Bowl armor), but have the weakling of a catcher. Also, 4 Blitzers, so more opportunities for Knights to lay the smack down.

Anyone have any suggestions as to other teams, ideas, etc?

samuel
28-06-2007, 09:28
hey why dont you make or own one up but make sure its within lines

so you could say your knights are somthing like this

knight
cost ma st ag av skills
0-6 100k 6 4 3 9 block, break tackle

then all you have to do is play test it and if its to hard put it down abit of if its to many points lower it abit or if its not enogh higher it

peasants
cost ma st ag av skills
0-16 40k 6 3 3 7

again play test it



hope this helps

Gres
28-06-2007, 10:31
I'm not a fan of any of the proposed Bretonnian team lists so would just suggest you use the human team. Why should Brets be more skilled that professional BB players from all other human realms? Or for a more ironic team you could use a Vampire team ;) .

Tennboy
28-06-2007, 20:06
Remember Kids, Just Say No To Making Your Own Bretonnian List!

You want to use Brets? thats fine.
You want to convert your models? Cool
Just please use the Human Roster and leave designing rosters to the game designers. And above all DON"T make a thread about it on any BB forum.

Besides, the human roster is already very competitive, there is no reason to go changing it just for fluff.

samuel
28-06-2007, 20:30
why not make your own teams, if there not over powered i dont see why not. In my gaming club we are making rules for a full beastman list

Kotobuki
29-06-2007, 05:53
See, I'm going to be using it in a league. So it has to be legal. Hence the counts as. I have no intention of making my own rules up, or any of that. And I'll probably end up using the plastic humans from the box set, with a deal of modification.

I was thinking (since they are Bretonnian), that it might be nice to be able to have one or two models actually riding horses... but the only list I can see something like that in is Chaos Dwarves... and I don't really like the idea of guys ending up mutated. And the regular knights would be awful slow.

I guess I'll try a couple games with the High Elves and a Couple with the Humans list, and see how it goes. I guess I'll probably end up with the Humans.

Gres
29-06-2007, 10:13
I don't think there's any justification for using the HE list if you aren't using elves. The human team is the perfect fit (Knights = Blitzers, Squires = Rest of positions - peasants wouldn't allowed anywhere near the team) and anyway horses are definately banned from BB ;). Just don't use an Ogre for theming reasons and you will be fine.

wat_dabney
29-06-2007, 12:56
Oh, I don't know. A Bretonnian themed Ogre would be fairly amusing :) Beret, string of onions, stripey shirt, bicycle.. ;)

I like human teams that are themed. I've got a Middenheim team where all the models are the plastic players with the heads removed and replaced with the hairy heads from the Empire Knights box and I've got a "desert dogs" team made from Phil's Phigs arabian themed players where I've used a Reaper Genie as the Ogre and some Eureka belly-dancers as cheerleaders.

Gres
29-06-2007, 13:59
Oh, I don't know. A Bretonnian themed Ogre would be fairly amusing :) Beret, string of onions, stripey shirt, bicycle.. ;)
Oh I agree with that, it's just I'm getting the impression that the OP is looking for a traditional WFB theme rather than the usual comedy BB theming. A French Ogre would indeed be great.

Jo Bennett
02-07-2007, 22:34
One alternative might be modelling a human blood bowl team as Bertrand le Brigand and his men, including Guy Le Gross using the Ogre rules.

the1stpip
08-07-2007, 19:36
knight
cost ma st ag av skills
0-6 100k 6 4 3 9 block, break tackle



As said, leave this to the designers.

Chaos Warriors
0-6 100k 6 4 3 9 <no skills>

And this is why people don't like playing against home-made teams.

By all means, convert your Humans from Bretonnians. They will probably look fantastic, but don't try to make your own 'balanced' rules.

Kotobuki
01-08-2007, 05:31
Okay, so the League Organizer (and Season One commissioner) suggested I check out the Midgard Blood Bowl League extra teams, as he felt the Bretonnian Team they've designed was good enough. (those teams can be found here (http://www.blood-bowl.net/MBBL/PBBL_Handbook_MBBL_ExtraTeams.pdf)) I ran it by the new commissioner, and it was approved for use (obviously, without the extra characters). So, I'm good to go for rules... Now I've got the modeling to worry about. I'm in the midsts of converting some donated Human Plastics (many many thanks to my local GW Manager for that) and I thought I'd run some of the preliminary models by you guys here...

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/kotobuki99/misc/linemen.jpg

The two at the top are pretty much done. I've got to do some green stuffing to make more convincing ends to the leather vests (they'll end up with a \/\/\/ pattern along the bottom) along with the possibility of some chainmail showing beneath it. There will be NO codpieces in my army, thankyouverymuch. The bottom guy is early WIP... and I'm not sure if I'm going to go with the plain helmets like his, or if I'm going to keep everything with the brimmed helmets. I like having the face guards on there... which only leaves me with a couple of options, unless I do like the top left guy, and use the lower part of the normal human heads. I could, of course, just use any heads, with or without armor banding. I do have pretty much EVERY current plastic Bretonnian head... so any suggestions would be good.

Also, that only sorts out the Linemen... Using that list, I still have 4 other model types I need to make. I plan on having 2 Blitzers, 2 Runners, and at least one, if not two of the squire types. (Probably 2 Blitzer, 1 Runner to start the season) These guys, I'm not so sure of what to do for them. Again, suggestions would be nice. I'd like to keep these guys feeling like Bretonnians.

SkawtheFalconer
06-08-2007, 20:08
I too will be getting a Blood Bowl team together, when I can. I would think the obvious choice for Blitzers (and what I intend to use) would be the knights on foot, that were released for 5th edition? Have a hunt in the archive on the GW site. I was also thinking of the "Little John" model from 5th edition. Failing that, you could also use the grail reliquae pilgrims. I'm still having a think about fan factor models too - Jules le Jongleur, I think!

Peril
08-08-2007, 05:29
Nick, is that you?

Kotobuki
08-08-2007, 06:25
Nick, is that you?Indeed it is, sir. Though, who you might be, I'm unaware.

So, I've done a bit of work. My five starting linemen are all finished, conversion wise. They've just got to be cleaned up, and have a couple tiny details added.

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/kotobuki99/misc/linemen2.jpg
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/kotobuki99/misc/linemen3.jpg
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/kotobuki99/misc/linemen4.jpg

The dashing fellow (get it? 'Dashing') is a Runner's Squire. There will be a bit of chainmail hanging out below his tunic there, to give him a little protection (at least equal to the Linemen, who share AV 7 with them). A second Runner's squire will be built from the same base as him, though posed differently. Runners (and blizters squires) will have a similar level of protection, but with greaves, and Blitzers will wear even more armor, probably including full great helms. I don't know quite what I'm going to base them on just yet. I think the 5th ed. Knights on foot will be far too small.

I'm also trying to come up with a team name. I've got a few floating around, and I'm open to more suggestions. So far, I've got these...

Lyonesse Lions (pretty lame, could go with Lancers here as well, but the Heraldry associated with the dukedom is a lion)
L'Anguille Lancers (Lancers, get it... cause they're Knights)
Mousillon Maulers (Most everyone I've seen starting a Bretonnian Army for Fantasy wants to do Mousillon, so I'm thinking maybe not)
Paravon Pegasi (good colors, no white to paint, personal choice for now. Drawback is the logo)

Also, Starting Team Roster...


QTY TYPE COST MA ST AG AV SKILLS Norm Dubl TOTAL
2 Blitzer 120,000 6 3 3 9 Block, Dauntless GS AP 240,000
Juggernaut
2 Blitzer Squire 70,000 6 3 3 8 Wrestle GS AP 140,000
2 Runner 100,000 7 3 3 8 Block, Catch GS AP 200,000
1 Runner Squire 60,000 6 3 3 7 Sure Hands GP AS 60,000
5 Linemen 40,000 6 3 3 7 Loner GA SP 200,000

3 ReRoll 50,000 - - - - -- -- 150,000
1 Fan Factor 10,000 - - - - -- -- 10,000

GRAND TOTAL 1,000,000

Peril
08-08-2007, 15:00
This is Jason, we talked about your team up at the Rice store. Looks good. The only thing I don't like about the team rules themselves is that the Lineman get access to General and Agility skills, yet cost less then a human Lineman. Very few teams get multiple skill choices on their basic guys. I will see you tonight if you are going to be at the store ;)

Kotobuki
08-08-2007, 15:44
In defense of the Linemen getting access to more than one skill type... They are Loners... I don't know how many Star Player Points they're ever going to earn. They're just support for the pain train that is the knights.

Of course, plenty of the more adept teams get multiple skills for their basic guys, not that I would exactly call my linemen adept. *shrug* I've got some time before they'll actually be able to play in the league, so we'll have some time to see if it's particularly flawed.

Peril
08-08-2007, 18:45
I don't think its really bad or anything .. I just don't understand why it is like that. I believe you are correct that the best they can hope for isa n MVP here and there and then a cheap completion to get them a skill.

Kotobuki
17-08-2007, 06:39
So, I've got the first Finished Lineman for the Paravon Pegasi. Color scheme is finalized, logo is designed. Now to just get a couple more sprues of plastic Humans, and I can convert up the rest of the team.

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/kotobuki99/misc/lineman.jpg

Then I've got to throw the logo in with my other decals I'm having printed up for my Bretonnian army, and I should be good to go. Logo is not a priority though.

HarkonGreywolf
18-08-2007, 00:23
Very nice model!
Really looks the part.
Can't wait to see the whole team painted up, when are we likely to see that?

HG

Kotobuki
18-08-2007, 14:38
Well, the whole team is going to depend alot on when I can get the two other sprues of humans. There was a guy at the store that wanted to get a BB Box, but was going to sell off the teams with it, as I think he's playing elves. If I can get in contact with him, to get the Humans, hopefully they'll be done sooner, rather than later. The other guys that are currently converted should be done fairly soon. Hopefully in a matter of days.

Kotobuki
19-08-2007, 14:38
Okay, so I spent a good deal of time on these guys over the last day or so. These six models are ready to go. I'm not entirely pleased with the skintones, especially on the Runner's Squire... but that's something I may or may not bother fixing in the future. They still look good enough to me.

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/kotobuki99/misc/team1.jpg
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/kotobuki99/misc/team2.jpg

Also, as you can see, the ball is painted. Sometime in the (hopefully not too distant) future, I'll get the two other sprues of Humans, so I can get to converting them. I'll need to have the team ready by the end of this season, so I can join in next.

HarkonGreywolf
19-08-2007, 23:32
Very nice.
And for help with the skin tones, try a very watered down wash of a mix of brown and red ink.
I'm talking very watered down! Sat 15 water:1 brown:1 Red, wash this several; times over the skin allowing it to dry between washes.
You'll find you get a fairly good representation of real skin tones like that!
I use it all the time on my mini's.
This is not Blood Bowl mini, but a Goliath from my Necromunda gang, painted with flesh tones and then washed as above. Not the best picture buit it gives you some idea of the results.
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i63/SWDWHS/Necromunda/GoliathFlamer01.jpg
(I only linked the pic as I didn't want to hijack your thread!)
Hope this helps,

HG

Kotobuki
23-08-2007, 01:58
Very early PIP on my 6th Lineman (not in the starting lineup) and my 2nd Runner's Squire (also, not in the starting lineup unless I change my mind).

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/kotobuki99/misc/runnersquire.jpg

Need to get down to the GW so I can mooch off their Foundation Paints to get the yellow started. In the mean time, I might as well get going on the black.

HarkonGreywolf
23-08-2007, 10:42
Very nice, and full face helmets avoids the flesh tone problem eh? ;)
LOL

HG

Kotobuki
23-08-2007, 15:42
That's a bit of a bonus for them, indeed. Of course, there's actually some face detail sculpted in to the vision slit. So I'll have to paint it anyway.

Peril
24-08-2007, 17:07
They are looking great!!

Kotobuki
30-08-2007, 17:00
So, those two guys are painted now...

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/kotobuki99/misc/runnersquire2.jpg

I got pressed into a league early, so the Squires are doing duty as full on runners right now. And the other 6 positional players are being proxied, temporarily. I started late in the league as there were dropouts, so I'm gonna be hard pressed to really do anything, much less win a game. I decided on an 11 man starting roster, with maxed out positionals.

First game I played was against a Skaven team that was up by 250K. I went down 5-nil to him. One Casualty each way. I lost a S on a lineman, and I think he just missed the rest of the game. The lineman was promptly retired before the next game.

Then I went up against a heluva bashy Orc team. (Down 300,000 to him) 4 Black Orcs, a Troll, and seems half the rest of his team had Guard. First Die roll of the game Killed my poor Journeyman outright. From then on though, I went down to the turf alot, but no other injuries. Quite a few KOs, but the 2 Bloodwieser Babes, my guys weren't going to stay out any longer than they had to. Final score was 1-nil in favor of the Orcs. No other casualties on either side. Though I earned enough SPPs to advance one guy.

Next couple catch up games should hopefully be against other teams that need to play catch up games as well, so I should have a decent chance.

plasmoid
12-12-2008, 20:09
Hi Kotobuki,
I don't know if you're still reading this forum, but we talked back when you started your Bretonnian team for your club league. How did it work out?

I just wanted to let you know that the MBBL roster, which you use(d), evolved some, and has now been finalized! That's right - no more tweaking :)

In case you're still interested, the team can be seen here:
http://home.worldonline.dk/nyskes/bbowl/BBBretonnians.htm

Cheers
Martin

Helveticus
13-12-2008, 07:23
Dont forget his linemen are AV7, so getting two skill branches won't mean much when they're dead.

plasmoid
18-07-2009, 20:36
Had to move my website:
http://www.plasmoids.dk/bbowl/BBBretonnians.htm

Lewis
20-07-2009, 00:07
I'm loving the models but I have to say that using this skill heavy roster when you could use them as aregular human team seems to be a waste to me...

Tennboy
20-07-2009, 13:34
I hate the idea of a special Bretonnian team almost as much as I hate the idea of 40K BB.

selone
20-07-2009, 14:27
I commend you for putting effort into it but theres already a lot of human teams and if you do brettonia whats to stop empire? Nice conversions though :)

Svarte Hanske
25-07-2009, 14:48
Cool models! Its probably nice to test the Bretonnian-list, but you might try the normal human-list and see which works best. I put my money on the normal human-list (it is awesome).

Lewis
26-07-2009, 16:59
I commend you for putting effort into it but theres already a lot of human teams and if you do brettonia whats to stop empire?

Or Tileans? They could have an extraordinary racial ability to make the other side take checks for having fouled them even when they haven't and could be represented by a team of those guys curled up on the floor clutching their heads that came with the WFB giant before the current one.

plasmoid
13-08-2009, 15:19
Hi all,
Tennboy said:

I hate the idea of a special Bretonnian team almost as much as I hate the idea of 40K BB.
Fair enough, that's your prerogative.
But I'm happy to say that I know a few coaches that have adopted the rules - so to each his own I guess.

Lewis said:

I have to say that using this skill heavy roster when you could use them as aregular human team seems to be a waste to me...
Well, I don't know about skill heavy.
Human teams are traditionally skill heavy-er, because they rely on skills rather than stats.
But check this out -
A maxed out 11 man Bretonnian team fields 19 skills.
A maxed out 11 man Amazon team fields 19 skills.
A maxed out 11 man Norse team fields 19 skills (Ignoring the skill heavy big guy here)

Selone said:

if you do brettonia whats to stop empire?
And Lewis continued:

Or Tileans? They could have an extraordinary racial ability to make the other side take checks for having fouled them even when they haven't
At least recognize that these Bretonnians don't use any screwed up special rules or proxy abilities - just normal skills.
And - we already have 4 elf sides, 3 undead sides and 3 human sides, so it's not like there isn't precedent for multiple teams for species.

To me, a Bretonnian team makes a heck of a lot more sense than a lot of these other multiples. After all, Bretonnians have a miniature range, plenty of fluff and an established fan base. That's what separates them from Tileans. And frankly I'd be happy to see amazons, halflings, elfs and norse go.
Cheers
Martin

Lewis
13-08-2009, 15:31
Well the pro elf team came into being becuase the elf teams in existance were prohibitively expensive and people were fielding teams made up mostly of linemen. I've never heard of anyone playing High Elves recently. The woodelves get some play time essentially solely because of the wardancer. The necromantic team was likewise, if we're honest, a replacement for the older undead team. I feel the Brets can be adequately represented by the skill set presented by the human team. Having said this you've put a lot of time and effort into the team and they look great so it's not at all that I'm decrying your choice from the roof topsa dn good luck to you.

selone
13-08-2009, 17:05
Indeed there's a lot of argument for the pro elves as sort of a better, more affordable high elf team.

plasmoid
13-08-2009, 21:24
Hi Lewis,
yeah - I know it wasn't exactly the plan to add those teams, but now we've got what we've got :)
Coincidentally, in the MBBL (international play by email league - come join :D) we've got 3 wood elf teams, 3 elf teams, 4 dark elf teams and 5 high elf teams.

I agree that they could be represented by the human statline. I just think the fit isn't all that good.

Cheers
Martin :chrome:

the anti santa
15-08-2009, 12:04
I hate the idea of a special Bretonnian team almost as much as I hate the idea of 40K BB.

Gotta say i share your predjudice as well. Every Bretonnian team i've seen has either been hopelessly outbalanced or mind numbingly dull.

You can make a great converted Brett team using the standard human rules. We already have 21 (24 if you inculde LRB6) official rosters and some of them are a bit rubbish as it stands (zons and all versions of Khemri spring to mind).

plasmoid
17-08-2009, 10:11
Hi Anti-Santa,

Every Bretonnian team i've seen has either been hopelessly outbalanced or mind numbingly dull.

Since I know that the list I've presented isn't outbalanced (and certainly not hopelessly so), it stands to reason that you find it mind-numbingly dull.

I'm not sure what makes you conclude that, but I'm guessing that you haven't actually played with or against the team - so perhaps your judgement is a bit rash. :eek:

Cheers
Martin

Starblayde
18-08-2009, 14:38
What's wrong with using the Human rules for Bretonnians? After all, the Human rules aren't just 'Empire' players, and it's only the real weirdos like Norsemen and Amazons who get their own special lists.

I'm loving the conversions on the Paravon Pegasi, too. Quintessentially Bretonnian!

the anti santa
18-08-2009, 19:58
Hi Anti-Santa,


Since I know that the list I've presented isn't outbalanced (and certainly not hopelessly so), it stands to reason that you find it mind-numbingly dull.

I'm not sure what makes you conclude that, but I'm guessing that you haven't actually played with or against the team - so perhaps your judgement is a bit rash. :eek:

Cheers
Martin

Actually I've seen that team before.

I don't see the point of making a less interesting and weaker version of the human team. After all humans are one of the worst of the tier one teams as it is. What use is a fast skeleton with fend instead of regen, a wrestle lineman and a fast human blitzer with a couple of random skills?

I don't see anything unique about the team or how they add to the Bloodbowl experience. They can't bash and can't play the ball either so where's the fun element?

There isn't even a demand for the team you even say so yourself that the majority of coaches dislike the idea.

plasmoid
18-08-2009, 21:05
Hi Anti-Santa,
don't get me wrong, you're completely welcome to hate the team for whatever arbitrary reason you can come up with.
All that I'm saying is that the team sure isn't unbalanced, and the team has been adopted by enough leagues/coaches that plenty of people find it fun on pitch. Even if your analysis of the team on-paper has a different conclusion.


I don't see the point of making a less interesting and weaker version of the human team.
For what it's worth, they're quite different teams. And in the MBBL, the Bretonnians are doing better than humans.


What use is a fast skeleton with fend instead of regen, a wrestle lineman and a fast human blitzer with a couple of random skills?
So, the linemen share 3 stats and no skills with a skeleton - yep, they're the same.
The eye of the beholder is looking a little blood-shot here :chrome: ;)
Can I just point out that fend is quite useful in bulk - but no other teams can really commit to taking it in bulk.
I think I could make a description of almost any existing team like that, and make it sound terrible.


They can't bash and can't play the ball either so where's the fun element?
They play a very decent running game. And with 8 players starting with both blocking-stability skills and access to S, their bashing is not to be underestimated. But indeed, where's the fun in that.

Their niche was intended to be running team, that didn't have the staying power to run classic 2-1 cageplay. They'd have to play more creatively.


There isn't even a demand for the team you even say so yourself that the majority of coaches dislike the idea.
True, the majority don't want it.
But if the minority liked it enough, where's the harm. It's not like it's a robot team or somesuch outlandish crap. Like amazons.
And I know for a fact that there are Bretonnian warhammer generals who'd like to play Bretonnians in BB. Kotobuki from this thread is one such coach.

Cheers
Martin

eriochrome
18-08-2009, 21:26
I personally do not like your blitzers. They have the same stat line as the werewolf which is supposed to be a supernatural creature. Given them either MA 7 or AV 7 and lower the cost slightly and they are more in line with what other human stats are.

plasmoid
19-08-2009, 09:06
Hi Eriochrome,
I figure I can't change your taste, but I can explain why they are, what they are.

I personally do not like your blitzers. They have the same stat line as the werewolf which is supposed to be a supernatural creature.
Supernatural schmupernatural ;)
Wights are supernatural creatures too - but come in at 6338. That doesn't mean that the blitzers should have MA5.
I think Regen (and claw) is what makes the weres so decidedly supernatural.


Given them either MA 7 or AV 7 and lower the cost slightly >snip<
I believe that if I did, Anti-Santa or someone of the same opinion, would be even more inclined to say "wheres the fun in that team" and "they're just a weak human team".


and they are more in line with what other human stats are.
Actually, MA8, ST3, AG3 and AV8 are all human stats from the human team.

The Bretonnian blitzer is intended to be a blitzer-catcher hybrid, combining the best elements of human catchers and human blitzers.

Cheers :D
Martin

eriochrome
19-08-2009, 13:02
But the combination of 8338 does not show up on any other human in the game and your Team can field 4 of them. Just seems a little to past what is reasonable. There is only 1 MA 8+ and AV 8 player in the game, Werewolves, and they are limited to 2 and start with frenzy which is both good and bad since they are Str3 and lack block initially. I would prefer a MA 7 AV 9 with your skills plus Animosity (does not like to give ball to players of lower rank).

Tennboy
19-08-2009, 13:51
F' it 0-16 9649 - block, dodge, Mighty Blow, Leap, Side Step, Hypnotic Gaze, Disturbing Presence (HG and DP are to represent their shear awesomeness) 50K :p

Kotobuki
19-08-2009, 13:56
So, some of the guys from the old league are starting up a new BB league. If I can ever get out from under these other projects I'm working on, I might finish up this team and get back into it.

eriochrome
19-08-2009, 17:58
I also like the idea of playing Bretonnians as vampires with Insult to Honor replacing blood lust name but having essentially the same rules.

plasmoid
19-08-2009, 19:00
Hi Kotobuki,
welcome back.
If you do get around to it, I'd love to see the finished team. I'd love to show them off on the Bretonnian website too.

If you're playing in the league you used to, which allowed the old MBBL, perhaps they'll allow you to play with the new one too. I've linked to the website in this threat. The roster has now been in use in the MBBL for quite a while, and is no longer subject to change. I remember you being an (ex?) Bretonnian WFB general, so it might have some appeal :)

Cheers
Martin

plasmoid
19-08-2009, 19:08
Hi Epichrome :)

But the combination of 8338 does not show up on any other human in the game and your Team can field 4 of them. Just seems a little to past what is reasonable.
If we're talking personal preference then I can't sway you.
I've learned the hard way that I'll never be able to create a Bretonnian roster that will please everybody, so I'll have to settle for someone else liking it.

However, if you're talking overly powerful with that "past what is reasonable", than I'll I can say is that the team is tier 1. Not high end tier 1. Heck, the Anti-Santa figures it's weaker than humans.


I would prefer a MA 7 AV 9 with your skills plus Animosity (does not like to give ball to players of lower rank).
Well, if it ever became allowed in your own league, you could house rule it all you wanted. :angel:
But you'd have to house rule animosity too - as it currently only mentions players of different race.
We did actually play an MBBL season with those MA7 AV9 blitzers!
But in the post-season feedback it became clear that the AV9 made the team too durable - pushing it out of the niche it was designed for. (I.e. running team that isn't good at 2-1 stall)

I guess we'll have to leave it at that. Different strokes :)
Cheers
Martin

the anti santa
19-08-2009, 19:44
Hi Anti-Santa,
don't get me wrong, you're completely welcome to hate the team for whatever arbitrary reason you can come up with.
All that I'm saying is that the team sure isn't unbalanced, and the team has been adopted by enough leagues/coaches that plenty of people find it fun on pitch. Even if your analysis of the team on-paper has a different conclusion.


It's not just my opinion, it's the majority. And I have enough life experience to know a **** sandwich isn't going to make a good lunch, equally i have enough Bllodbowl experience to know a duff team when i see one. Like the old norse which i thought were dull when they appeared in the journal and didn't become interesting till LRB5.



For what it's worth, they're quite different teams. And in the MBBL, the Bretonnians are doing better than humans.


Don't get me started on the MBBL, those stats are worthless, there are far too few games played in that league to give any kind of reliable data and the quality of coaching is pretty low. the fact that Amazons and Dark Elves are at the bottom of the winning rates along with the joke teams is proof enough. In any case humans have a win rate of 50.46% a whole point more than Brettionnians 49.59% how is that doing better?



So, the linemen share 3 stats and no skills with a skeleton - yep, they're the same.
The eye of the beholder is looking a little blood-shot here :chrome: ;)
Can I just point out that fend is quite useful in bulk - but no other teams can really commit to taking it in bulk.
I think I could make a description of almost any existing team like that, and make it sound terrible.

Ok, go on then.
The comparison with skeletons was due to their role in the team, low agility and armour line fodder (and do you wonder why all decent undead coaches take zombies) if you ask chaos dwarf or vampire coaches if they'd like to swap fend for AG2 for their thralls and hobgoblins i don't think they'd agree.

Fend is 2nd tier skill, usually something you take once all the good skills are gone and you didn't roll stats or doubles. I did see some interesting Amazon teams with players given fend and can see the potential of starting with in en mass.



They play a very decent running game. And with 8 players starting with both blocking-stability skills and access to S, their bashing is not to be underestimated. But indeed, where's the fun in that.

Their niche was intended to be running team, that didn't have the staying power to run classic 2-1 cageplay. They'd have to play more creatively.


Sounds like humans then, but with more expensive positionals who die just as easily and rubbish fodder. Human Blitzers die pretty easily and take ages to replace, those knights will join wolves, dancers and bulls are priority targets and if they go off the pitch you are left with nothing. Should a couple die then your team is crippled for ages.



True, the majority don't want it.
But if the minority liked it enough, where's the harm. It's not like it's a robot team or somesuch outlandish crap. Like amazons.
And I know for a fact that there are Bretonnian warhammer generals who'd like to play Bretonnians in BB. Kotobuki from this thread is one such coach.

Cheers
Martin

But they can play Bloodbowl using humans, in Bloodbowl it isn't the Empire that represents the humans you can use any nation in the old world. That's the beauty of it and why these home made rules tend not to work as to make the team different enough from humans to be interesting you have to break the fluff or make silly players (i.e. 6/3/3/7 zons and old norse).



I personally do not like your blitzers. They have the same stat line as the werewolf which is supposed to be a supernatural creature.

Supernatural schmupernatural
Wights are supernatural creatures too - but come in at 6338. That doesn't mean that the blitzers should have MA5.
I think Regen (and claw) is what makes the weres so decidedly supernatural.


Wights are basically undead human blitzers that's why they have -MA and gain regen. A werewolf is a supernatural creature that is part wolf with enhanced strength and resilience. That's why they have MA8, wolves being pretty quick and all, but keep ST3 and AV8 as well as getting regen since they can take a bit of a kicking.

That's another reason i dislike the team, it doesn't even fit the fluff, whilst I like that Bloodbowl is wahammer with a twist i don't see why a knight would have MA8. They are famous for riding horses, doing noble deeds and being well armoured not their abilty to run the 100m in sub 10 seconds.

eriochrome
19-08-2009, 19:47
I can certainly see your points. Team design is pretty hard since all the teams currently are not what anyone would call balanced. We have such a small group of players in my area that we do not really even get a good sampling of the 21 base teams let alone the experimental ones.

plasmoid
21-08-2009, 14:16
Hi Anti-Santa,

It's not just my opinion, it's the majority.
Actually, what the TBB-majority has stated is that they don't want any Bretonnian team. That these Bretonnians are weak, play like the human team and are boring/a **** sandwich -that's you.


Don't get me started on the MBBL >snip< the fact that Amazons and Dark Elves are at the bottom of the winning rates along with the joke teams is proof enough.
I did a team performance survey for the BBRC based on a lot of other leagues than the MBBL. Yes, Amazons and Darkies were doing better in the rest of the world than in the MBBL. Others were doing better in the MBBL. Is that somehow different than any other league?
If you want the numbers for MBBL/Elsewhere, then Darkies were 45.5/51.3 and Amazon were 42.3/49.8


In any case humans have a win rate of 50.46% a whole point more than Brettonnians 49.59% how is that doing better?
What you couldn't possibly know is that the MBBL stats page is screwed. It includes data from previous versions of the teams and vault rules. It also includes data from 5 busted cheaters. As part of the above mentioned survey, I cleaned up the MBBL data. You can see the MBBL data here, as well as the other data I collected:
http://www.plasmoids.dk/bbowl/LRB5Stats.htm
In total, humans are actually struggling at 45%. The Bretonnian roster presented here, used for 2 seasons in the MBBL, are doing more like 60%. A bit too high actually, but the team is played by predominatly very strong coaches, so that is to be expected.


if you ask chaos dwarf or vampire coaches if they'd like to swap fend for AG2 for their thralls and hobgoblins i don't think they'd agree.
Perhaps because those teams need a few reliable ball carriers? Brets don't.
Either way, I'm not saying that the fend linemen are fundamentally better than 6337 linemen. But they're certainly their equals. In my experience, fend is great skill in bulk.


Sounds like humans then, but with more expensive positionals who die just as easily and rubbish fodder.
Well, I wouldn't call them rubbish. And the blitzers are more expensive because they are better. Pretty standard blood bowl fare.
As for being "like humans" - the human team has many options, including running. But they're also one of the only teams with dedicated throwers and catchers. Bretonnians are more focused.


Human Blitzers die pretty easily and take ages to replace, those knights will join wolves, dancers and bulls are priority targets and if they go off the pitch you are left with nothing. Should a couple die then your team is crippled for ages.
Good thing that you have 4 then, and not just 2.
And that you can induce mercs.
If vulnerable expensive players were impossible to play, then wood elfs would suck. At least Bretonnians have cheap fillers.
Either way, I'm not getting any reports from anyone playing the team, that it is a tier 2 team. So that really is just your untested analysis.


But they can play Bloodbowl using humans
Yes they can, but to a fan, I think the flavour would be lacking.

This could be the Norse team - but it isn't.
Berserkers 7338 block
Valkyries 8237 dodge, catch
Thrower 6338 sure hands, pass
Linemen 6338


Wights are basically undead human blitzers that's why they have -MA and gain regen.
All I said was, that it was not a good argument that a human "obviously" had to be slower than a supernatural creature, because
a) There are plenty of very slow supernatural creatures in the game.
b) Human catchers actually are as fast as a werewolf.


That's another reason i dislike the team, it doesn't even fit the fluff, whilst I like that Bloodbowl is wahammer with a twist i don't see why a knight would have MA8. They are famous for riding horses, doing noble deeds and being well armoured not their abilty to run the 100m in sub 10 seconds.
Actually, there is Bretonnian fluff describing the Bretonnian nobility as genetically supirior through good breeding - kind of like race horses. So it's not that they're anything like sub 10 seconds. They're as fast as the human catchers filling out the countless human teams out there. They're just so physically fit that they're strong while being that fast.

Cheers
Martin

Lewis
22-08-2009, 01:48
The reason that norse get such attention as a supposedly ordinary human race and that the Brets haven't is that norse teams have been part of the Blood Bowl fluff since 2nd ed. They are an established part of the Blood Bowl world, Brettonians are not.If you look at the current range of lists, they are all heavily influenced by the background sections of the various blood bowl rule books, with the possible exception of Amazons that were born of a brief obsession with Lustria in many of the specialist games publications.

I think BB's darkest moment from a model design and conceptual point of view was when it very close to copying the warhammer world too closely and there has been a move away from this again in recent years: hence more players with names like thrower and blitzer and less with names like lion warrior or whatever.

plasmoid
22-08-2009, 19:52
Hi Lewis and all,
I think I need to clarify my position:
I'm not trying to get these accepted as an official team.
I'm suggesting them here (and on the site) as house rules.

If you (the generic you) don't want Bretonnians in your league, then that's your call. :)
All I'm hoping that if someone in your league is really into Bretonnians in the warhammer world, and asks to play them in your BB league - and scowls at the offer to play Vamps or Humans "as Bretonnians" - that you remember and consider this roster.
Not to please me - but maybe that leaguemate will enjoy them. :angel:

I know that not everyone wants Brets in their league.
I just wanted to point out the reasons to block Brets aren't totally bulletproof:
There are multiple rosters for some species - and there are teams decidedly more outlandish and weird than Bretonnions.

Only thing that riles me up is when someone claims that the team is - objectively speaking - poorly designed, underpowered or boring to play. You're more than welcome to not want to play the roster. But I know enough people that have actually played it, and given it the thumbs up.

I'll leave this thread alone for a while.
I hope Kotobuki posts some more minis sooner or later :D

Cheers
Martin

eriochrome
23-08-2009, 01:29
Good Point Lewis, all the current experimental teams are just making playable versions of classic team like the underworld creepers(a team I used to play all the time) and chaos all stars. Slann as date to 2nd edition.

plasmoid
23-08-2009, 06:49
In Gold ed. [Spits] Bright Crusaders were listed as Bretonnians, so that's what I'm doing as well ;)

(Actually, the pact team really bugs me from a fluff point of view . there is only _one_ Chaos All-Stars)

Cheers
Martin

the anti santa
23-08-2009, 10:35
I did a team performance survey for the BBRC based on a lot of other leagues than the MBBL. Yes, Amazons and Darkies were doing better in the rest of the world than in the MBBL. Others were doing better in the MBBL. Is that somehow different than any other league?
If you want the numbers for MBBL/Elsewhere, then Darkies were 45.5/51.3 and Amazon were 42.3/49.8

What you couldn't possibly know is that the MBBL stats page is screwed. It includes data from previous versions of the teams and vault rules. It also includes data from 5 busted cheaters. As part of the above mentioned survey, I cleaned up the MBBL data. You can see the MBBL data here, as well as the other data I collected:
http://www.plasmoids.dk/bbowl/LRB5Stats.htm
In total, humans are actually struggling at 45%. The Bretonnian roster presented here, used for 2 seasons in the MBBL, are doing more like 60%. A bit too high actually, but the team is played by predominatly very strong coaches, so that is to be expected.


I've seen those stats before, but hadn't realised that the BBRC used them to look at team balance. But that does explain some of the odd changes made in the rather pointless and crappy LRB6.

Raw data on win/loss without other contributory factors is not only worthless but can also give the wrong impression. I'll ignore the NAF stats as tournaments have their own house rules and don't follow some of the LRB.

I have a few issues with those stats being used.
1 - 9,600 games isn't a lot for 24 teams, i know coaches who's played 1,000 games with one team. The sample is far too low to get accurate figures.
2 - There is no indication of what TV the teams are, some races start strong and get worse (amazons) whilst other are the opposite (chaos), i suspect that the majority of those stats are with low to mid TV teams which is why Undead and Dwarfs are so high as both struggle once you get to 175 unless they get some good skill rolls.
3 - No indication of coach skill, as you've already stated the Brett results in the MBBL have been skewed by a few good coaches. So with such a small sample of games a small number of good or bad active coaches could greatly influence the results. For instance Orcs are right near the bottom of the tier 1 teams :wtf: When anyone with any experience of Bloodbowl will know that Orcs are one of the best teams in the game and arguably the strongest bashy team. But they are also a team loved by new players and what many of us learn on.




Perhaps because those teams need a few reliable ball carriers? Brets don't.
Either way, I'm not saying that the fend linemen are fundamentally better than 6337 linemen. But they're certainly their equals. In my experience, fend is great skill in bulk.

Well, I wouldn't call them rubbish. And the blitzers are more expensive because they are better. Pretty standard blood bowl fare.
As for being "like humans" - the human team has many options, including running. But they're also one of the only teams with dedicated throwers and catchers. Bretonnians are more focused.

Good thing that you have 4 then, and not just 2.
And that you can induce mercs.


Why are they AG2 anyway? That represents slow or clumsy players, peasants might have ST2 or MA5 due to being a bit weak and weedy but i don't see if making them clumsy.

I don't see what the Brett team focus is, they won't be able to cut it in the bashing game even with 8 ST access players, they are quite fast but about the same speed as humans so have a reasonable running game but that's hampered by the AG2 fodder.




If vulnerable expensive players were impossible to play, then wood elfs would suck. At least Bretonnians have cheap fillers.


Wood elves do so well because they don't need positionals to be good at scoring, their linemen are better at ball handling than most teams specialists and i wouldn't call an MA8 blodger vunerable.




Either way, I'm not getting any reports from anyone playing the team, that it is a tier 2 team. So that really is just your untested analysis.


I'd forgot we had such a stupid tier system in BB with 75% of the teams being tier 1 and the rest of the joke teams in 2 & 3. Most people would have a tier system with roughly a 3rd the teams in each with 1=good, 2=average and 3=poor. I'd put them at the bottom of the BB tier 1 then below humans and necromantics.



Yes they can, but to a fan, I think the flavour would be lacking.

This could be the Norse team - but it isn't.
Berserkers 7338 block
Valkyries 8237 dodge, catch
Thrower 6338 sure hands, pass
Linemen 6338

That was still better than the old Norse roster :D
before LRB5 they were a horrid dull 1-dimensional team too, if they are not going to change the zon roster i'd rather they got rid of them and used humans for them too after all they even brought out a female ogre star.

The counts as rule is 99 time out of a 100 the best way to represent varient teams. If you want crazy fun stuff for a few people to use then making up teams is fine but don't pretent they are going to be as good as the existing ones. GW struggle to balance new armies in 40k and WHFB, just look at the awful necron and dark eldar lists, the Tau are only just starting to get good now and the Ogre in fantasy are not quite there and not to mention the big jump in power creep from daemons DE and Vampire counts.

To the OP, here is a Brett team you can use if you don't like the humans or vamps roster. It factors in the extra armour that knights wear.

0-4 Questing Knights 4/4/2/9
0-4 Knights of the Realm 6/3/3/9 Block
0-2 Squires 5/3/3/8 Sure Hands, Pass
0-16 Knights Errant 5/3/3/9
0-4 Peasants 6/2/3/7 Dodge, stunty

The questing knights and peasants are a bit of a stretch but you don't have to use them.



All I said was, that it was not a good argument that a human "obviously" had to be slower than a supernatural creature, because
a) There are plenty of very slow supernatural creatures in the game.
b) Human catchers actually are as fast as a werewolf.


a) But how many of those creatures are part wolf? You do realise that "supernatural" isn't used to describe a set type of creatures that are all similar but magic ones that are far more diverse than humans.
b) But they have ST2 and AV7, so my point was it's hard to run as fast as a wolf whilst wearing full armour.



Actually, there is Bretonnian fluff describing the Bretonnian nobility as genetically supirior through good breeding - kind of like race horses. So it's not that they're anything like sub 10 seconds. They're as fast as the human catchers filling out the countless human teams out there. They're just so physically fit that they're strong while being that fast.

Cheers
Martin

Nothing in the fluff notes their running speed in armour, if you had them with AV9 and MA6 then i'd see the point. Block and dauntless are good skills to represent their heroism, Catch i can see from a game point of view but don't see the fluff reason. LRB4 wolves had it to hark back to the 2nd edition version where they would act like dogs including getting "distracted" by treemen :D

Lewis
23-08-2009, 14:31
Also they would steal parts of skeleton players and bury them. Heh, blood bowl is funny.

plasmoid
25-08-2009, 13:17
Hi Anti-Santa,
I'll try to keep this short.

I like LRB6. A lot :D. I was so happy to see some top teams take a small nerf, and some of the weakest ones get (small) buffs.
As for your doubts about the figures, I'm sure the BBRC figured those out too. (They ignored the NAF data).
I see no good way to measure coaching skill, but hopefully it will even up as the ammount of data builds up. Data for Brets from MBBL are vulnerable to that, because we have less than 100 games (AFAIK).


i suspect that the majority of those stats are with low to mid TV teams which is why Undead and Dwarfs are so high
Perfectly true. But as every team goes through the early stages of development, while fewer make it to the high-TV range, I think that slant is fine. Anything truly terrible or very powerful for the first 10-15 games is a problem in every league.

As for orcs, I agree that they're possible a special newbie magnet. I wouldn't have minded if they'd been nerfed too - but I can settle for less :)


Why are [Linemen] AG2 anyway?
Fluff (and balance). The arrogant knights and their trusy yeomen don't train with the peasants - so the yeomen get no training in the finesse parts of the game.


I'd put them at the bottom of the BB tier 1 then below humans and necromantics.
I wouldn't. I'll rephrase then: I've had no reports that the team is particularly weak. Quite playable.


If you want crazy fun stuff for a few people to use then making up teams is fine but don't pretent they are going to be as good as the existing ones. GW struggle to balance new armies in 40k and WHFB
Well, I think they are. :D
We've certainly spent more time on developing them than GW does with the armies ;)


b) But they have ST2 and AV7, so my point was it's hard to run as fast as a wolf whilst wearing full armour.
And my point was that being in excellent physical/genetic condition, they are just a little stronger, allowing them to better carry a bit of armour, and a little tougher, making up for some of the armour that they don't wear (compared to normal AV8).
There's nothing werewolfish about them. They're just very fit humans.


Catch i can see from a game point of view but don't see the fluff reason.
They're arrogant glory-huggers, who want to dazzle the chicks by scoring.
I could have given them animosity, but I felt it would be overdescribed. And besides, it seems every new team and their dog is getting animosity. ZzZZzz.

Cheers
Martin

plasmoid
25-08-2009, 20:10
In the interest of adding a bit of nuance to the description of Bretonnian power:
In my experience, they're a decent team at TV100-120.
Between something like 120-170, they are quite strong - having picked up a bit of a bench.
Reaching 170+, a little sooner than dwarfs and undead, their power wanes. As opposing teams become more hard hitting, and better at delivering hard focused strikes against the blitzers, they fall to the low end of tier 1.

Cheers
Martin

DDogwood
25-08-2009, 20:41
The arrogant knights and their trusy yeomen don't train with the peasants - so the yeomen get no training in the finesse parts of the game.

I think that would be better represented by the "Loner" skill than by a low AG score, to be honest.

Of course, I still think that the Bretonnian team is best represented by the Human roster. That's what I've always used for my Bretonnian team, the Bordeleaux Patrons. I'd be happy to see the Amazons use the Human rules, too, though.

selone
25-08-2009, 20:46
Amazons have less character than a human team, so I'd agree.

plasmoid
25-08-2009, 21:40
Hi DDogwood,
I'm kind of inclined to agree on the Loner thing actually. We playtested it in the MBBL for 6 months, and the playtesters reeeeally didn't like it.

Cheers
Martin

Kotobuki
25-08-2009, 22:34
If that was the roster I used initially, I really liked it. Sure, it meant you had to be really careful about what you asked your linemen to do, and have a tiny bit of luck... But I thought it rather characterful. Then again, I wasn't looking for a skull crushing, high flying superawesome roster. Just something that felt like Bretonnia, which I thought that one did admirably, well with the exception of the passers (who are likely to level up rather fast) being Squires. Though it wouldn't have made sense for them to be knights, I don't think. *shrug* Just as long as there's a team for me to come back to when I get a chance to work on my guys again.

plasmoid
02-09-2009, 12:47
Hi all,
sorry to revive this :skull:
I asked the MBBL Bretonnian coaches to comment on Anti-Santas critiques, and I got this reply. It's from Atropabelladonna (on MBBL and TBB):
>>>
To answer the specific comments:
They play like humans
No chance. They play the most simular to Necro in my mind. Or least in my play style. A running team for sure. They have similar issues in that you can have 4 players hog all your SPP's (like the werewolves). They can but rarely pass. I do hand off a lot (catch helps this). Humans have specialists for each position (cathcer, thrower, receiver and linemen) while you are trying to do everything with your 4 blizters and you have to debate on where the Yeoman will fit in (linemen, passers, ball retrievers, blitzers).

fend is a tier 2 skill
Well he is right when comparing fend to Dodge or Block. But fend is good in large numbers. I think a better comparison is to linemen vs. lineman and the bret lineman is worse than the human lineman but does have a role and you have to pay something for those awesome blitzers.

Bret's are weak
I feel they are an average tier one team, about equal to humans and Necro. They may suffer long term but I am not really sure. I find that some of my blitzers are wearing down but my yeoman are finally getting developed.

the anti santa
11-09-2009, 23:06
Hi all,
sorry to revive this :skull:
I asked the MBBL Bretonnian coaches to comment on Anti-Santas critiques, and I got this reply. It's from Atropabelladonna (on MBBL and TBB):
>>>
To answer the specific comments:
They play like humans
No chance. They play the most simular to Necro in my mind. Or least in my play style. A running team for sure. They have similar issues in that you can have 4 players hog all your SPP's (like the werewolves). They can but rarely pass. I do hand off a lot (catch helps this). Humans have specialists for each position (cathcer, thrower, receiver and linemen) while you are trying to do everything with your 4 blizters and you have to debate on where the Yeoman will fit in (linemen, passers, ball retrievers, blitzers).


I disagree with his summation of humans, just because they have throwers and catchers does not mean that the passing game is their strength. By far the most effective strategy for humans is the running game with the passing game as a back up. They can do this better than necros (and your brettonians) but the passing game is a risky prospect for them.



fend is a tier 2 skill
Well he is right when comparing fend to Dodge or Block. But fend is good in large numbers. I think a better comparison is to linemen vs. lineman and the bret lineman is worse than the human lineman but does have a role and you have to pay something for those awesome blitzers.


I don't think anyone would try to say fend is a top choice of skill, useful once you have the key ones but also coming to the stage when if a player is taking fend then he might be too much TV and worth sacking.



Bret's are weak
I feel they are an average tier one team, about equal to humans and Necro. They may suffer long term but I am not really sure. I find that some of my blitzers are wearing down but my yeoman are finally getting developed.

Humans and Necros are not average teir 1 teams, they are at the bottom of the teir by your stats, which i'd agree with. Whilst humans do start decent they quickly start to struggle so it's hard to compare them to a team like chaos who do the exact opposite. Zons might be worse but they are one of the strongest starting teams so tough to call.

My main issue with that Brett team is that aside from the Blitzers the team has no flavour or interest. If they were at least exciting i could forgive the fluff holes as fluff shouldn't get in the way of making the game work. But even the Blitzers aren't that great, if I saw a human team with a blitzer that had +MA, Catch and dauntless i'd think those were pretty poor skill choices.

imperialforge
13-09-2009, 15:40
Hi Kotobuki,

Sorry if this is a bit off-topic... I saw a pic of your team on the first page of this thread and really liked the minis. What are they and can one still get them? I scoured ebay for "Blood Bowl" and the human minis I saw did not resemble yours. If you could point me in the right direction, I would really appreciate that!

Thanks!

Kotobuki
14-09-2009, 15:57
Those are the plastic humans that come in the Blood Bowl box with a good deal of cutting, carving, filing, and sculpting done to them, as well as the addition of a good number of Bretonnian bits from the plastic sprues.

This (http://home.comcast.net/~kotobuki99/misc/linemen2.jpg) is a pretty good shot at showing what goes into making the linemen. Basically it's a clipped/filed right shoulder pad, which gets replaced with the pauldron shield from the plastic knight sprue. The head is cut out and replaced with any of the various heads from the Men at Arms sprue. The kettle helms I think look particularly cool for these guys, as do the guys with the armored gorgets. These need some considerable trimming to make them fit between the shoulders. To make the bodies look more Bretonnian, just carve a padded leather pattern of some type into the body, and fill in the gap over the crotch so it's got a continuous hem.

imperialforge
14-09-2009, 19:09
Thank you! Those look very nice indeed. When I saw them I thought they would look great as Bretonnian swordsmen - with proper modifications. Your pointers on modifying the minis were very helpful. Thank you very much!