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gorenut
16-08-2005, 06:58
I'm surprised one for VC hasn't come up yet. I'd like to see some opinions on VC, particularly Army of Sylvania.

Tormentor of Slaanesh
16-08-2005, 08:41
what is the best bloodline to start off. In my opinion it is Strigoi as they can kill masses of rank and file are are quite tough. Blooddragon are better in combat but their naff magic means you need more necromancers and therefore less thralls. Von Carstein have ace powers but are a bit boring. Necrach is just ace with the awakening adding troops to your ranks faster than they die. But they suck against other combat characters, except elector counts!!!
Lhamian, don't get me started!!
Wights rule, ghouls are ace and spirit hosts are invaluable!!

Ordo Hereticus
16-08-2005, 21:49
2k Strigoi flying circus is the nastiest thing i have seen yet, lord with fly and some other nasty powers, then 3 thralls with fly, let them all fly around and just charge any unit, then roll for your over run.

They paste nearly anything when they charge together (bar knights of course, though they still probably chew through them)

Xander-K
16-08-2005, 23:31
Bloodragons are ridiculous IMO they can cast magic with armour, get full plate armour, get the extra shield option, +2 Weapon skill - the only real drawback is one less powerdice (oh wow, its not like Blood Dragon armies should be magic focused anyway).

The having to challenge people isn't a problem, because the chance of your Count losing combat are pretty slim considering how damn tough they are. I really hate how they have made the Blood Dragon line too good.

Army Selection - what core units do you prefer zombies or skellies?

I take skellies as zombies are quite difficult to paint well, and take some time to put together, also it just looks so great having nice neat blocks of bone marching towards the enemy.

I think equipping with hand weapon and shield is the best way to go, the light armour makes every model that much more expensive, and they don't have a good enough statline to warrant armour, tis a much better idea to just use the Invocation to keep them going.

Characters: I like having a few Wight Lords and putting them in my skeleton units it bolsters their ld so much, which means very few casualties from bad ld rolls.

Makaber
17-08-2005, 01:22
Hey! Hang on!

I'd love a proper VC tactica, but this just isn't the way to do it. It needs structure and a sound dissecting of an element before moving on to a new one. So far, the thread consists of gorenut stating the thread, Tormentor of Slaanesh with a poorly worded rundown on the various bloodlines based on his personal preference and playing style, a mention of a particular army concept, and Xander-K changing topic completely.

This either means the thread itself will be a mishmash of personal opinions with absolutely no structure (and thus be impossible for anyone actually interested in learning anything about how Vampires play to navigate), or each analysis of an element will consist of a single post stating a single persons opinion (which is even worse).

Seeing as a Tactica is supposed to be the ultimate source for any given army on a forum, it needs careful moderation and overseeing. This is not the way to do it.

gorenut
17-08-2005, 04:18
I suppose we can start with the Lords. As a whole, I always go with a count for a lord in a 2k game. Heros in a Vampire army are valuable and you need all the extra slots you can get. The exception to this is the Army of Sylvania list. Since you are not allowed any extra spellcasters, I think having access to a lvl 3 wizard is very helpful.

Other exceptions include really fast Strigoi or Blood Dragon armies that consist of dire wolves as core, backed by black knights - where massed rank and file might slug behind the fast moving elements.

lorelorn
17-08-2005, 04:29
In general I find a Lord is less valuable than a Count and another character, which is the choice you make when you take the Lord. I have yet to take one in a game less than 6000 points.

The Lord is good compared to the Count when you consider the stat bonus he gets over the Count, but the extra character slot really pegs that advantage back.

Yanos
17-08-2005, 08:49
It's probably fair to say that in your average 2000pt game, only the power-mad are likely to take a Lord.

While it's a lot of points, and you need to be an ever-lovin' Carstein to take it, there is a lot to be said for taking the Carstein Ring for your Count. Having (effectively) two ward saves, until something flamey appears, really does count for something :D. Add the mundane weaponry of your choice, and there's your General!

Xander-K
17-08-2005, 10:50
and Xander-K changing topic completely.
how was I changing topic? I was saying how Blood Dragons are overpowered, and a no-brainer choice, then talking about what core units people prefer.


Seeing as a Tactica is supposed to be the ultimate source for any given army on a forum, it needs careful moderation and overseeing. This is not the way to do it.
you must be joking?? if you look at most of the other Tactica threads they are just a mish-mash of ideas concerning the specific army, maybe with 1 or 2 exceptions which eventually trail off on a tangent anyway.

Anyway, back to Vampire Lords, indeed you are a madman to take one of these instead of a Count, the increase in cost (pts wise) is quite steep, so you are gambling a lot on this model.

I myself take a Lord in 2000pt plus games at the moment but then the only other characters I take are Wight Lords to increase overall leadership, what about magic you say? well stuff magic, there aren't many spells that are actually much of a threat to my important characters.

I would usually equip him with Obsidian Amulet and Blood Drinker sword, stick him on a horse and have him moseying around behind my blocks of skeletons until he sees a good combat to flank.

Latro
17-08-2005, 11:08
Looking just at point-for-point efficiency, the Count will always beat the Lord:

- If you are looking for combat potential you can take an extra Thrall to accompany the Count for roughly the same cost as a Lord. This can give one unit serious combat power far outclassing a Lord leading a unit ... or the Thrall could lead a second combat unit giving you much more tactical flexibility.

- Looking at magical prowess will again give the advantage to the Count because he can be accompanied by a Necromancer for the points saved. Two lvl 2 casters (Count + Necromancer) are again better than just one lvl 3 (Lord). That's not even taking into account the handy magical items the Necromancer can carry while the Count preps himself for combat ... a Lord doesn't have that flexibility.


So are there any reasons at all for taking a Lord in a small (up to 2000-ish points) battle? There sure is :)

A Lord can be mounted on a large flying monster!

If you fancy/need/want/crave/love a character on a big flying nasty monster ... then the Lord is your man. Personally I don't use that set-up very often, but I have played a Necrarch army for some time with a Lord on a Flying Nightmare leading them. Very effective, very much fun and very much worth his points:

Necrarch Lord on a Flying Nightmare
- Nehekhara's noble blood (for more magical power)
- Unholy Cynosure (miscast? what miscast?)
- Forbidden Lore (even mooooore magical power)

So what does that gives you? First of all a Terror causing unit, always nice to have. A nice unit strength of 5 gives you the option of that very crippling rank-negating flankcharge. A lvl 4 caster with lots of options to do magical things and last but certainly not least ... a very good distraction. Most opponents tend to get a wee bit nervous when facing a Vampire Lord on a flying monster and they will react to that, even when your not planning on charging anyway ... a lvl 4 caster doesn't have to fight every round to be worth his points.

Just some thoughts ...

Tormentor of Slaanesh
18-08-2005, 11:18
I was just providing my opinion thankyou Makaber.
latro, would this lord be your general cos it goes against the dead good tactica where it points out that a flying general means your infantry move at 4" a turn and also on his own a vampire, especially a low ws necrach isn't invincible, think combat resolution.
I personally have my count in one skellie unit and a thrall in another for a solid core.
How many necromancers would you have with that lord?
are necrach thralls worth it? ws4!!!

Hebron
18-08-2005, 15:35
Staying on the topic of Lord/Hero choices, what do people find is a good Ratio of Fighty/Magicy characters?, In a 2000 pt. army I usually field a count/thrall and 2 Necro's to give me a farily magic heavy force (6 levels of magic)... The main objective of my casters will be to suppliment my units of zombies/skeletons, and make sure they have the numbers to hold up whatever it is they are fighting.

gorenut
18-08-2005, 16:59
Staying on the topic of Lord/Hero choices, what do people find is a good Ratio of Fighty/Magicy characters?, In a 2000 pt. army I usually field a count/thrall and 2 Necro's to give me a farily magic heavy force (6 levels of magic)... The main objective of my casters will be to suppliment my units of zombies/skeletons, and make sure they have the numbers to hold up whatever it is they are fighting.

This sounds like the average taken. Again, the only time I really break from this combo is if I play AoS (in which I always take a Lord for the extra level) or play for fluff reasons (I don't see Strigoi or Blood Dragon taking more Necros).

Lady's Champion
18-08-2005, 17:51
I would take a count, thrall and two necromancers as well- I find it to be a good combination, but- three necromancers and a Lord is so much magic I find that I end up with more models on the board at the end of the game than at the start!

iron_legion
18-08-2005, 19:24
instead of a vampire i take a ethreal master necromancer on a winged knightmare but then i also take three level 2 necomancers

Lady's Champion
18-08-2005, 20:10
Do you use the variant Necromancer army list with that or not?

Tormentor of Slaanesh
18-08-2005, 20:13
the all necromancer army is a good one. is it different tactically to a vampy one? you get no combat characters so u don't win combats.
I favour 1 thrall, one count and a pair of necromancers, for the same reasons as Hebron said. does anyone take wraiths? are they useless or what? wight lords in banner of the barrows units is probably good. anyone use it?

Lady's Champion
18-08-2005, 20:15
You could win combats- it isn't necessary to take a Vampire in a unit to win combats- if you can raise enough skeletons and get flank/rear charges you stand a good change.

Anyone with wights of wraiths?

gorenut
18-08-2005, 21:07
You could win combats- it isn't necessary to take a Vampire in a unit to win combats- if you can raise enough skeletons and get flank/rear charges you stand a good change.

Anyone with wights of wraiths?


I've yet to take Wraiths, but Wight Lords with Gem of Blood, Sword of Kings, and a Banner of Barrow unit makes a great challenge character.

Makaber
19-08-2005, 00:13
you must be joking?? if you look at most of the other Tactica threads they are just a mish-mash of ideas concerning the specific army, maybe with 1 or 2 exceptions which eventually trail off on a tangent anyway.

"Supposed to". Just look at the damn name of the things. Back in the days of Quality Posting, a good tactica thread was all you needed to know. The ol' Portent.net analysis of beastmen made me the general I am today.

fubukii
19-08-2005, 00:14
dont ever ever take wraiths.

Frankly
19-08-2005, 01:45
Personally I don't think there is a certain "set up" and combo that works best in hero selection.

Hero selection is completely determained by how you wish to run your armylist, for example more necros=heavy magic, more wights and thralls=combat, wraiths can be used in certain armylists, although I'm not the greatest fan of wraiths, I have seen them used to good effect on the battlefield, anything that makes your opponant roll negative dice rolls is pretty useful if used correctly.

I do believe how ever that alot of V.C. players spend a hell of alot of points in the character selection department, some armylists need this(especailly necro armylists), but most the time you'll see an added thrall or wight "just because" a person had an extra hero slot. For me, the game winner in the V.C. armybook is the range of troop selection, not the four hero slots any point deducted from points spent in troop selection can/will usually cut down the tactical and support options a player has on the battlefield.


Lords are ******* wicked, overpriced for 2k games, if you do play a Lord in 2000pt games then make sure you have a game plan for getting her points back. Personally I like to put her into a fast unit and get her into combat on my terms using danse and nehek. 3000pt games and higher a lord is a rock soild choice for geenral due to her higher WS and attacks and extra wound, in 3k he also won't be such a points sink on your troop selection.

Lords I like to take; Von Carstein with the Carstein Ring on a B.steed with a G.W., an pure tank of a character, honestly this character is near untouchable in combat, 5+, 4++, regeneration on a T5 spellcaster with 4 wounds makes for a very tough general.

A lord Lahmia on a b.steed with either Innocence lost, sword of striking and a ward, great against T3 opponants. Or sword of might, tranfix and quickblood. On foot, I like to give her quickblood, innocence lost, tranfix and sword of might. She's great at striking first(either on the charge or taking the charge) and doing damage, saving your unit from taking hits.

Lordmonkey
19-08-2005, 02:19
Anyway, back to Vampire Lords, indeed you are a madman to take one of these instead of a Count, the increase in cost (pts wise) is quite steep, so you are gambling a lot on this model.

Im taking a vampire lord to the carnage tournament in my von carstein army. So far ive done nothing but murder things with my list led by him, and not a single time has be died. However, if he dies so much as ONCE ill concede your point, and hang my head in shame.

I feel that the strategy of the vampire counts army changes drastically with each bloodline. I'll attempt to elaborate on the Von carstein bloodline:

My first and favourite bloodline, these guys are your bog-standard vampire with no special bonuses or penalties. I tend to find that the best type of force to suit the carsteins is oreintated toward the horde/support types. These armies must be balanced, to suit the balanced style of vampire you are using - and this is reflected in their bloodline powers. Aura of dark majesty is an extension on an ability which already exists as a strategic resource - the generalship of the von carstein family is exemplified incredibly here. If you indeed take a horde/support army, you will need this power to keep your army together properly.
The ability to summon bats and wolves is an example of support where approriate. These abilities aren't really worth their salt unless you roll really well when you use them, and I feel they are more justified in the army of sylvania list (where they are doubled using the drakenhof banner, a bargain!). THey can be useful to deny the enemy march moves during the first or second turn, but this can be achieved easily by simply buying some fell bats and flying them over near to the enemy.

Wolf form is a great ability, as it can be used in conjunction with a vamire thrall armed with a great weapon to knock out a chariot that probably costs more than him (chaos chariot, anyone?). The only problem with this tactic is that he then needs to get back to his unit, or hell crumble faster than you can say bread pudding. NEVER use this with your general. EVER. If you do, your a bloody idiot that needs shooting in the face! The risk of having you general caught out in the open like that is way too high, whereas a thrall is expandable.

Call winds is an interesting ability that ive put to use many times. On paper, and indeed, durin your first few battes, it seems great, and lets you stop those nasty drgaons flying into any old unit it feels like. However, I feel that it wouldnt bother an army thats only going to stand back and let you come to it anyway...

Walking death has to be the 2nd best von-carstein bloodline power available. THe ability to just laugh off the enemy superirority and fight on, regardless of anythig is the true strength of the von carsteins. The ability to win combats is unparalelld rumours.. and crap!

Latro
19-08-2005, 09:14
latro, would this lord be your general cos it goes against the dead good tactica where it points out that a flying general means your infantry move at 4" a turn and also on his own a vampire, especially a low ws necrach isn't invincible, think combat resolution.
I personally have my count in one skellie unit and a thrall in another for a solid core.
How many necromancers would you have with that lord?
are necrach thralls worth it? ws4!!!

To answer those questions ...

- Yes, he would be my general ofcourse

- A flying general only prevents marching when you fly away straight into the enemy from turn 1 ... not something I usually do. I find that it's not that hard to keep at least one flank up to speed. The big advantage is that if the need arises he can be at the other flank very fast ... faster than a general on foot or even one on horseback.

- Yes, a vampire on his own isn't invincible ... but where did you get the idea that I would charge him straight into large regiments? He is very mobile, has excellent line-of-sight and can remove rank-bonus ... let me repeat that, he can remove rank-bonus. Just wait for the hordes of undead infantry to lock the enemy into a fight and hit the flanks for some major carnage :)

- Don't forget, his charge is (especially against infantry or other low-save targets) about as effective as a unit of Black Knights. A charge with 5 strength 5 and 3 strength 6 attacks will hurt.

- He has 2 Necromancers to assist with the magic, so thats's 10 power dice (2x lvl 2 and 1x lvl 4) before any bouns items or other goodies (and the big man has +1 to cast as well).

- Necrarch thralls are not worth it, at least not in the army the way I field it.

Hope that clears things up :cool:

PS This is not a statement to prove that Vampire Lord are "teh best!", but merely pointing out a way to use a Lord in a way that can be effective as well (not to mention fun).

Strictly Commercial
20-08-2005, 11:20
My favorite tactic is simply to take plenty of spellcasters, always "drop down" to Invocation of Nehtek (sp?), and just swamp the enemy with zombies. Never getting any kills? No problem, just create more, and more, and more zombies. The idea is simply to count on the law of averages. You create so many zombies that you always outnumber them, then simply wait for your opponent to have a bad turn at combat. Sooner or later they will lose, be outnumbered, and automatically break. Plus a shield wall of zombies will prevent just about anything from reaching your spellcasters, which will provide the offensive power for this force. Believe me when I say that if you load up on power dice you will never be short of troops, unless your opponent dumps everything he has into dispelling Invocation of Nehtek, which will leave him stripped of other important things. The key is simply to be patient and not to allow yourself too much hope that your undead units will actually kill any masses of the enemy. Just focus on tying up units and keeping your zombies (or skeletons) plentiful.

Notice how I don't mention heroes, lords, or specials of any kind, except to say have them be spellcasters? That's because this works well with any kind of character as long as you have lots of power dice and multiple chances to cast Nehtek.

Latro
20-08-2005, 11:42
Character selection:

Here are some thoughts on several (typical) character combinations. Some of these I've tried while others will be commented on from a more "theory instead of practice" point of view.

- Count + 2 Necromancers + Thrall (or Wight Lord/Wraith)

An effective allround combination and also the one most seen on the battlefield (I think). The magic-phase gives you 8 powerdice plus whatever your items will give you. The Count and the Thrall also add two solid combat characters to your army. The advantage of having a Thrall instead of a Wight Lord lies in the options it gives you. The Wight Lord might be about equally effective while leading a regiment of skeletons or cavalry ... but he can never perform the things a Thrall with Wolf or Bat form can. A Wraith adds Terror at the cost of slightly less combat power ... a matter of taste.

- Count + 3 Necromancers

Less combat power and flexibility, but more Magical power. Using this set-up with a Necrarch Count (with the various bloodline powers) can give you the most powerful magic line-up (12 powerdice and +1 to cast) with still a limited combat character in the army ... at a hefty price ofcourse.

- Lord + 2 Necromancers

Doing this with a Necrarch Lord will still give considerable magical power (10 powerdice and +1 to cast), but other bloodlines are generally better off taking a Count and the extra character ... more point efficiency. If you want to field a large flying monstrosity beneath your vampire you'll have to take the Lord though.

- Master Necromancer + Thrall + 2 Necromancers

This set-up definately favours the magical route to victory, but includes a Thrall to give at least one unit some added combat power ... or give to give the Master Necromancer a bodyguard ... or a flexible character hunter. More options than a pure Necromancer army, but a bit less magical.

- Master Necromancer + 3 Necromancers

Lots of magic, but cheaper than the Necrarch Count + 3 Necromancers set-up. Swamp the enemy with moving corpses ... 'nuff said.

- Lord/Count + assorted combat Characters (+ maybe Necromacer caddy)

These armies use magic in a more defensive way. Try to keep the opponents magic at bay while the Vampires do their job ... and maybe even summon a few reinforcements if you're lucky. These tend to field more specialized troops (cavalry) instead of the usual grunts, not always though.

There ...

My favourite set-ups are

- Necrarch Lord (Flying Nightmare) + 2 Necromancers

- Von Carstein Count + 2 Necromancers + Von Cartein Thrall

Soooooo ... what are the experiences you've had with these different combinations?

:cool:

super_steve
23-08-2005, 00:19
ok so what about the equipment you will be giving these heros?

shall we start with the vampire counts/lords.

i play blood dragon and have my count on foot to keep the army moving so i give him flayed hauberk, ring of the night and red fury, i allso arm him with a great weapon.

vcassano
23-08-2005, 07:29
dont ever ever take wraiths.

Well that's real helpful, thanks.

Actually I feel you are wrong, I find Wraiths very useful when I play with the 'Counts. They are very good against low leadership armies like Skaven when they can drift around, causing havoc with their terror or lead a large unit of skeletons/zombies. I prefer to have them roam as I find it more effective due to their poor WS which means they struggle in combat at times. However if the opponent is magically stronger then you, be prepared for him to be blasted by magic missiles if he is alone.

In a 2000 point game I usually take a Carstein Count, Wraith and a Necromancer. Depending on what I spend my points on, I may use a second Necromancer, but that is not a regular occurence. This provides a balance between combat and magic which I find very effective.

Latro
24-08-2005, 07:54
The allround character set-up I field most of the time:

Von Carstein Count (mounted, riding with the Black Knights)
- Summon Bats (because I like it)
- Gem of Blood (ward save with a nasty twist)
- Biting Blade (cheap and effective)

Von Carstein Thrall (leading the skeleton infantry)
- Flayed Hauberk (makes you feel all save)
- Great Sword (to make my point)

Necromancer lvl 2
- Dispel Scroll (nuff said)
- Book of Arkhan (move faster, damn you!)

Necromancer lvl 2
- Dispell Scroll (nuff said)
- Black Periapt (most efficient "must have" item out there)


... that's it :cool:

Tormentor of Slaanesh
24-08-2005, 10:25
I used to have a strigoi count, a flying thrall, a combat thrall and a necromancer. it was a rubbish army list. so I switched to a count , two necromancers and a thrall which is the all rounder idea in my opinion.
the book of arken is the best bound item in the game, an extra movement spell has got to be good. how about the staff of damnation, anybody use it? it seems overpriced to me.

Xander-K
27-08-2005, 12:23
I notice no-one has mentioned Wight Lords yet! :O the cheapest combat heroes and just look at that leadership! surely these guys are superb for giving your army longevity. Stick a Wight Lord in a large group of skellies and you have a unit that will take a lot less casualties and has a tough leader with killing blow to boot.

gorenut
28-08-2005, 04:07
Not to mention if you stick them in a wight squad with banner of barrows, they benefit from it too.. hitting everyone else on a 3+. Throw on the Sword of Kings for extra Killing Blowness.

I generally arm my Wight Lord with HW, Shield, HA, Gem of Blood, Sword of Kings. Makes him the ultimate challenge character.

Lordmonkey
29-08-2005, 14:26
how about the staff of damnation, anybody use it? it seems overpriced to me.

Not if you play a horde army. a 12" range is good to support 5 block units!

fubukii
29-08-2005, 18:54
if you are running a horde type army like a necromancer army the staff of damnation is your best friend and might allow you to kill stuff in cc with your troops :) and ensure that your wight units own it up

gorenut
05-09-2005, 07:49
Ok.. question for you guys.. kind of specific. Say I go Von Carstein AOS. I already have a barded thrall with summon wolves. What should I go for next? A wolf thrall with great weapon, one on foot with flayed hauberk and great weapon, wolf thrall with heavy army, HW+S, or another barded thrall? remember, I have summon wolves with all these thrall variants which will use the power near the knights carrying the Drakenhof Templars (knights).

Tormentor of Slaanesh
05-09-2005, 11:26
depends on your opponent, if he has lots of warmachines or lone characters, have a wolf thrall. if not try a great weapon thrall with walking death with ur infantry.

Xander-K
05-09-2005, 16:31
I don't really see the usefulness of summon wolves, you might as well just buy a unit of wolves, you would be sure to get a decent size unit then, sure you can summon from the table edge, but the amount you summon is pretty useless in most cases.

gorenut
05-09-2005, 16:39
I don't really see the usefulness of summon wolves, you might as well just buy a unit of wolves, you would be sure to get a decent size unit then, sure you can summon from the table edge, but the amount you summon is pretty useless in most cases.


Well, I take it with Army of Sylvania. Coupled with the Drakenhof banner, I'm summoning double of what I rolled. Now if I have atleast 3 characters with the ability.. there's the potential to get 18 new dire wolves in 1 turn.

backslide
08-09-2005, 02:09
Well, I take it with Army of Sylvania. Coupled with the Drakenhof banner, I'm summoning double of what I rolled. Now if I have atleast 3 characters with the ability.. there's the potential to get 18 new dire wolves in 1 turn.

I used it last sunday and summoned 20 wolves turn one...

put the bad guy on on the back foot some what..

don't under estermate them, the ablity to march blook is priceless it allows you to control the pace of the game and make him worry aboutwhere to put his mages.


and if the are 3 or more models your opponet gets really worryed about his rear

Tormentor of Slaanesh
08-09-2005, 17:21
shame no other bloodline has its own offical army list, poor strigoi, sniff.
aren't those wolves just easy victory points for some armies, like chaos?

gorenut
08-09-2005, 17:31
shame no other bloodline has its own offical army list, poor strigoi, sniff.
aren't those wolves just easy victory points for some armies, like chaos?

I don't think so if you use them in tandem of a frontal charge. HAve them try to hit the back, the wolves being US2 each can easily negate all ranks.

Warlord Gnashgrod
08-09-2005, 18:31
yeah, the wolves should never be used on their own. Their extra speed works well to set them up for a flank/rear charge against a unit already engaged in the flank. That is how they should be used.

backslide
09-09-2005, 02:16
aren't those wolves just easy victory points for some armies, like chaos?

not really they have to turn round to get them, and they arn't a lot of points to begin with..

the way they can play on your opponates mind and slow his marches is what you pay for.

Lordmonkey
09-09-2005, 10:49
Dire Wolves are probably one of the best flankers in the game, not jsut because of the fact that the von carsteins can summon them! No light flanking unit should ever expect to stay in combat for more than the turn they charged, at which point they should be breaking the enemy due to flanking/rear. So the fact that these guys crumble if they lose isn't a problem - you aren't using them properly if they do! Plus, they never panic from shooting, and they have US 2 per bas, this means you only need 3 to survive a rear charge on some night goblins, one kill more than they get and there could be 20 or 200, they are breaking. Also remember that these lil' doggies scare things. fear is especially handy when you want to hit the enemy and not get hit back - handy indeed for these fragile, t3, unarmoured guys. Oh, and they hit on str 4 when they charge. Mage hunters? And they slow marchers. And, and...

*rants*

Tormentor of Slaanesh
09-09-2005, 20:26
ok, i get ur point.
how do people use ghouls?
mine are necromancer body guards, assasins and speed bumps.

gorenut
16-09-2005, 22:17
Ghouls are also pretty good at taking down large beasties who are unarmored. Only shame about AoS is that they can't take ghouls.. I love these guys.. t4 skirmishers with 2 poison attacks and causes fear for a very low price... such a bargain.

Tormentor of Slaanesh
17-09-2005, 10:27
the probelm is that they can't hold their own aginst most ranked up units.
the thread really has slowed so lets talk wights, how effecticve are they? if knights loose even one unit then they generally die within the next two turns.
should, in the new rules, wights be raised just like tomd guard? say d3, 2d3 and 3d3.
opinions?

Vampires_rule
17-09-2005, 21:09
you sound like you think wight cavalry are bad.

They are without a doubt the main killing machine in the vampire counts army (apart from the vampires which we all know are the best unit in warhammer its the truth).

they are the main base of my army and if possible i will always take them.

nurgle_boy
19-09-2005, 12:22
ok, im just starting up my all wight army (they use daz!:p), which is low on magic, and magic defense (im talking 1 lvl2 in 2k).

in 2k, i have my wight king (see rules development abou him, hes perfectly legal!) with a full grave guard (26, making an effective unit of 30)

then, a wight lord with heavy armour, great weapon, and shield with 24 grave guard
and the same again, another 24 with wight.

a banshee

followed around by 2x13 (i had 60pts spare) skele bowmen. its slow, but with a character in every unit (ok, minus the bowmen) my army will always be marching, and should reach combat by turn 3, relativly intact.

the thing is, all i know about how to use grave guard, sems to be put them with a character and fight, or use them as a support unit (theyre my fighting units though!)

i could drop something, and take something else, but using the back-of-the-book blood dragon list for it, means i dont have much!

i could change the archers for units of 10 skeletons. and sut something off somewhere, and take some dire wolves, and use the main list, but itd mean dropping a banshee, for2x5 die wolves, and the skele archers for 3x10 skeles...

any help is appreciated!

Hoshi No Koe
20-09-2005, 16:17
Hey, I'm not much of a WHFB player but I'm looking to get into it, and a Lahmian army with mostly Tomb kings models is an option that Í'm contemplating.
From what I gather, they seem to be the weaker bloodline, so how does one go about playing them well and fun?

Tormentor of Slaanesh
21-09-2005, 18:05
don't play against anyone except skaven and gobbos. they are naff against anyone with a remotly average leadership. the fact they only work on low leadership troops limits their usefulness aginst my armies, evil laugh.

Hoshi No Koe
21-09-2005, 19:28
Aren't there ways to lower leaderships and stuff like that?

Tormentor of Slaanesh
23-09-2005, 19:44
well Lhamians do that automatically by -1. but that still isn't worth it. use another bloodline unless you already have the models. if u use the leadership powers invest in lots of them or not at all. I do like quickblood.

Deadseed
23-09-2005, 23:28
There's also a spell in the Death Magic line that's called "Doom and Darkness!" that reduces a unit's leadership by 3.

g0ddy
03-10-2005, 19:06
how was I changing topic? I was saying how Blood Dragons are overpowered, and a no-brainer choice, then talking about what core units people prefer.

Now you see, I have the complete opposite view... Ive found blood dragons to be quite possibly the WORST bloodline hands down. Always having to issue/accept challenges is a HUGE and CRIPPLING disadvantage in many combats and quite simply can lose you the game very easily.

The Vampire leading any unit in an undead army bar wights, is there somewhat more so to protect the weak zombies/skeletons from giving the enemy combat res from easy kills, he does this by killing the enemy first! He obviously cant do this if hes going toe to toe with the enemy general or if hes turning the enemy unit champion into julien~(sp?) fries. Sure when your fighting the unit champion your going to get overkill but your not preventing the enemy unit itself from slaughtering your unit of zombies/skeletons in turn.

You're also puting your vampire up against the target he is the least likely to get the most combat resolution out of, why is this in any way an inteligent thing to do?

Back on topic! Motions for more Sylvanian Content ;)

- g0ddy

Ctuchik
02-09-2006, 23:55
I have a serious vampire question. How do female vampires put on makeup if they can't see themselves in the mirror? :confused:

Voltaire
03-09-2006, 11:04
With sarcasm.

DeathlessDraich
03-09-2006, 12:52
Ask Hammer Films! Female vampires were well dolled-up in their films.
Certainly fulfilled many of my boyhood fantasies

god octo
03-09-2006, 17:57
im considering having VC as my second fantasy army and wondered if they are ok.Also, what does everyone think of the black coach ( i play HE a lot) and grave guard? Also lahmian vampires?

EvC
03-09-2006, 18:14
Black Coach used to be okay if you could avoid rolling a one for impact hits (Of about 20 charges with the Black Coach, I've rolled a one at least 3/4 the time. It's very annoying); its terror-causing nature is very good, but I certainly wouldn't bother using it with 7th edition rules, as the Wraith will be always striking last (even on the charge) and S4, which is pathetic.

Grave Guard can be good, especially with a hero in the front rank, and need to have Hellish Vigour casted on them in close combat. You'll almost always go for HW + Shield for the 3+ save in close combat too.

Ganymede
03-09-2006, 19:13
the wraith will not always strike last.

In the new rulebook, the "strike last" rule only comes into play when a model would normally determine attack order with initiative. In other words, if you charge, you strike first even with a strike last weapon.

EvC
03-09-2006, 19:41
I'm glad to hear that, although I was sure that when I read that rule it specifically said that the model strikes last, even when charging (Or something that made it differ from GW-armed models on foot).

If anyone can give me a proper quote for the rule in the new rulebook, then I would be very grateful indeed... I would love to be wrong here!

Madfool2
03-09-2006, 19:46
Whats your thoughts on Strigoi powers, especially regeneration now the rules have been changed.

DrkAp0stle
20-09-2006, 03:23
I ordered a new rule book and haven't gotten it yet so I really don't know but how has the new magic system affected Necharch's, used to play them in 6th and just wanted to know how they are being treated in 7th.


-Ap0stle

Marcusfudds
23-09-2006, 19:47
dont ever ever take wraiths.


I used to have a strigoi count, a flying thrall, a combat thrall and a necromancer. it was a rubbish army list. so I switched to a count , two necromancers and a thrall which is the all rounder idea in my opinion.
the book of arken is the best bound item in the game, an extra movement spell has got to be good. how about the staff of damnation, anybody use it? it seems overpriced to me.



Put a wraith on a horse (without barding of course) with the Talon of Death to generate combate results and send it warmachine hunting (remember chars can march on their own). You will Terror everything along the way. If playing skaven avoid it or try putting the Obsidian Amulet on it.

As for the Staff of Damnation i thake it every time along with the Book of Arkhan. For 2 reasons, it casts Hellish Vigor on everything within 12 inches, how can you pass that up especially if playing with lots of zombies. The zombies suddenly become killing machines relative to the points you paid for them (or a spear skellie unit, usually 10 hit first reroll attacks)! And second because it gives me one more free spell to dish out, and it it a constant anoyance fore my oponnat to think about all the spells and bound magic i have.
I have been known to take Rod of Flaming Death just to get an extra spell. Except maybe against Dwarves, hehe. Course Panic used to be a little better.

I also hear the Black Coach sucks now is this true? I love the BC!!!

Also, i have not gotten a look at the new rules, how badly are the VCs getting nerfed with magic. Sorry, i know this is a little off topic but i was hoping we could get a little more in depth into the magic phase. Most of the discusion has been army selection (still cool though).

By the way this is my first post on warseer so be gentle...tehe.

Marcusfudds
23-09-2006, 19:53
Sorry i put a mad face at the top of my post, am not mad at you guys, i am technologically dysfunctional. I was mad about the BC. :) there! hehe

EvC
23-09-2006, 23:06
Talon of Death does not contribute to combat resolution, and as far as I'm aware a mounted character does not have the ability to march all the time. If almost anything charges that Wraith, it crumbles.

I think VC's will be fine with the new magic. Most VC players will not take one powerful wizard, so with two or three moderate-level wizards, all of which having access a good default spell that can be cast on a 3 or 7, there's no nerf.

hacksaaw
23-09-2006, 23:17
well its is a nerf. your paying for your magic using vampire, even if you dont cast with him. and he is now sucking up the dice he generates. again that limits your choices of what and when to cast.

plus a miscast plus double one by your general is far more dangerous to you than before.

and grave guard took a serious shafting,( 5 wide yuk and they need full ranks to help with combat resolution. ) as did Ghouls who can nolonger dance around your opponent as nicely.

Now is the army still playable, you can still march near your general. but dont expect to get any spells off before late in the game. with your level 2 necros being limited in dice now.

my magic strategy will be alot more 3 power raise the dead on 1 die, saving the 2 or 3 dice spell for something good. while the other 2nd level necro will usually have 1 2 dice spell to cast. and your Vampire Count/Lord will have 3 dice to cast with. so maybe 2 spells if he casts the low level raise.

Hate Train
24-09-2006, 00:17
Talon of Death does not contribute to combat resolution
True. I was going to argue against this, but I just realized that you can only use the Talon in your own magic phase.

I think that if any Tactica is going to be made for Vampire Counts, it should be divided by bloodline. AKA: Tactica: Von Carstein (Vampire Counts), Tactica: Blood Dragons (Vampire Counts), Tactica: Necarch (Vampire Counts), Tactica: Strigoi (Vampire Counts).

If one were to take a Strigoi Flying Circus at 2000 points using a Count and three Thralls (Depending on how you set up your Count that's 680 Points), what would you take for your units? I think it might be best to take Wolves and Bat Swarms for your cores, but I wonder at the prospect of Ghouls. It seems as though Special Units should be as many Fell Bats as you can possess who will run around with your characters in an orgy of blood. And is there any merit at all in taking a rare choice?

EvC
24-09-2006, 00:58
At the end of the movement phase, but never mind.


Now is the army still playable, you can still march near your general. but dont expect to get any spells off before late in the game. with your level 2 necros being limited in dice now.

I don't understand this reasoning: why is casting three spells by three different spellcasters using two or three dice each any less powerful than casting two or three spells by the same spellcaster?

Hate Train
24-09-2006, 05:40
End of move phase, my mistake. Was thinking of Casket.

It depends on what spells you have on what casters, but usually it will not make a difference since most of your wizards will only have 2 spells (Invocation + Something Else) it won't be any less powerful.

Marcusfudds
24-09-2006, 13:20
and grave guard took a serious shafting,( 5 wide yuk and they need full ranks to help with combat resolution. ) as did Ghouls who can nolonger dance around your opponent as nicely.

my magic strategy will be alot more 3 power raise the dead on 1 die, saving the 2 or 3 dice spell for something good. while the other 2nd level necro will usually have 1 2 dice spell to cast. and your Vampire Count/Lord will have 3 dice to cast with. so maybe 2 spells if he casts the low level raise.[/QUOTE]


i have to disagree with that statement. i usually ran grave guard 5X3 and although now they are kind of screwing
players who used the rank bonus method. It's better this way. it makes things more balanced in the long run for the whole game.

What are you talking about "raised dead 3 power on one die?" because 3 power raised dead costs 3d6 and the most efficient raised dead in my opinion is 2d6.

greymeister
24-09-2006, 16:31
My only beef about the new system is the added bookkeeping that the magic system adds to the game. My magic phase is like micromanaging an RTS game. I don't have a "magic pool" anymore, I have "Pool 1, Pool 2, ... and common pool"

Which to me slows down my magic phase considerably. I don't think it will effect armies with 1 or 2 casters, but with my VC army using at least 3 every game...it sucks.

Multifarious
24-09-2006, 23:03
What is the advantage Wights have over Thralls to make them worth it? They are LD9 rather than 7, but how does this help other than if the general gets killed? I know that they have KB, but that seems rather minor.

greymeister
24-09-2006, 23:38
If you want to use Necrarch as your bloodline as I do. I find Wraiths and Wight Lords have a much better place when used with Necrarchs. If you're using just about any other bloodline, I can think of better combos for thralls to be more effective. Necrarchs can too but I think it suits their fluff to sort of leave the fighting to the risen wights and wraiths and sit back and bring up more undead ;)

sephiroth87
25-09-2006, 05:00
What is the advantage Wights have over Thralls to make them worth it? They are LD9 rather than 7, but how does this help other than if the general gets killed? I know that they have KB, but that seems rather minor.

They're a bit cheaper obviously. But really, vampires get more attacks, have better weapon skill, are a little stronger, and they can take bloodline powers, some of which are actually pretty good.

As far as actual gameplay differences go, I've never like the Vampire Thralls, simply because the wight is a steal just for the cheap cost and access to the Sword of Kings. Thralls get some good stuff, but the wight does it almost as well as the thrall. I've taken both, and they seem to live about the same amount of time.

hacksaaw
25-09-2006, 15:25
power 3 is the casting value you need to cast the basic level 1 of raise the dead. you need 11 to cast the top one.

you will almost never see the level 3 spelled used. the middle one is also probably going to be rarer, unless you have nothing else to cast with that necro/vamp. but it can also miscast resulting in a potential death which if its your general is usually game over.

If you were running your grave guard at 5x3 before, why? what possible gain did you get? less manueverable, and 1 hero away from getting +3 from ranks if you went 4 wide. you lowered the effectiveness of the unit by a clear margin before. So you are now operating in an environment where that lower effectiveness is the norm for Grave Guard, which makes you happier, but means i will expect that much less from them.

Hate Train
26-09-2006, 02:57
Remember when casting the power level 3+ value, you must summon a unit of at least 5 members if you are creating a new unit, or else the spell has no effect.

And as to the Grave Guard, it's a moot point now anyways, only ranks of 5 add rank bonus. That is all that needs to be said.

hacksaaw
26-09-2006, 15:33
yes the 5+ figures rule combined with being forced to cast more 3+ instead of 7+ raise spells, is another part of why VC are going to be weaker and easier for your opponents to shut down your magic phase.

How are you going to manage the magic phase now? im used to surviving 2-3 turns of being shut down, now im expecting 4 turns of being shut out while im actually paying for the potential magical moves and abilities upfront, im getting less out of it. I expect we will have to see a diminishing in the cost of undead troops in the new book. especially the infantry. Because we are nolonger getting the powers we used to have.

Yes the grave guard are a moot point, so they will have to be used differently and less effectively in the future. with much more attention to flanking and supporting fully ranked up units.

and at the cost now, you might as well take the knights, as they give you far more speed and effectiveness.

greymeister
26-09-2006, 15:44
I like the fact that now you can use nightmare+barding as a cheap way for your vampire to get armour, but also stick him in a unit of grave guard. I find a big block of 23 grave guard are much more survivable than units of Knights, if for nothing else they will get the rank bonuses to save them. I hate Black Knights personally, but then again I would hate any cavalry that evaporates the first time it loses combat :cries:


As a side note, some people might think "How do you lose combat with Black Knights?" Well, you'd have to see me roll for them. On one particular occasion, I got a flank charge and managed to kill....not one single dark elf. They proceeded to kill 3 black knights due to the 1s I rolled for saves. I like undead for the most part because I don't have to kill things to win combat, because for me to kill things, well that would require average rolls every now and then :mad:

zakk_wylde001
26-09-2006, 21:28
I've played VC for a long time now, but my friend who I battle against on a regular basis (Skaven...) has decided he wants to collect Dwarves. He's tactically poor which is something that's always worked in my favour, as I've always been able to out play him, no matter what armies we use. But I just don't see any way of beating Dwarves, fear won't work and Dwarves apparently have quite a large dispel dice pool. So the only thing I can think of is trying to make sure that I use a lot of flankers, is there anything else I could consider?

greymeister
26-09-2006, 22:18
Why won't fear work? Unless it's a slayer army anyway. Stubborn doesn't negate the fact that a unit that loses combat to a fear-causing enemy who outnumbers them autobreaks unless they can roll insane courage. Dwarves run away too.

The dispel pool thing does blow though, so good luck with that :D You might try using Blood Dragons or composition that doesn't rely on as much magic (good luck ;) )

zakk_wylde001
27-09-2006, 06:48
Why won't fear work? Unless it's a slayer army anyway. Stubborn doesn't negate the fact that a unit that loses combat to a fear-causing enemy who outnumbers them autobreaks unless they can roll insane courage. Dwarves run away too.

The dispel pool thing does blow though, so good luck with that :D You might try using Blood Dragons or composition that doesn't rely on as much magic (good luck ;) )

Leadership 9 Dwarves. He has a strange ability to pass leadership tests...ALL the time.

Multifarious
27-09-2006, 14:03
Shouldn't it be rather easy to outnumber him and make him autobreak if he loses?

sephiroth87
27-09-2006, 18:32
Leadership is irrelevant if you outnumber him. And you can make him throw away dispel dice if you throw out a lot of cheap invocations and bound items. It's simply a matter of biding your time until he's out and you can throw out the big invocations and curse of years and such.

greymeister
27-09-2006, 19:22
I've found the only time it really has paid off to take Mannfred was against people who like to go super dispel heavy. Being able to toss that 3d6 invocation for free eats up alot of dispel scrolls/dice, and then having the rest of your power dice to still cast ;)

Marcusfudds
29-09-2006, 06:53
If you were running your grave guard at 5x3 before, why? what possible gain did you get? less manueverable, and 1 hero away from getting +3 from ranks if you went 4 wide. you lowered the effectiveness of the unit by a clear margin before. So you are now operating in an environment where that lower effectiveness is the norm for Grave Guard, which makes you happier, but means i will expect that much less from them.

Well i guess i should explain myself. My only regular player is a dwarf player so i ysually go the charge so i was getting first attack and i preferred to have 5 rather than 4 attacks. I usually had all of my units 5x whatever. Since he was a dwarf and i expected lots of cannons it would minimise damage from cannon balls bouncing through my ranks a little more. Also Grave Guard attack before dwarves. Come to think of it 5x whatever the size of the unit is still good. It helps with combat resolution as long as the unit is big enuf to handle some casulties. In a war of attrition a unit with a better frontage will win out every time (as long as it dosnt compromise rank bonus of corse). I guess it is all the army construction.




I've played VC for a long time now, but my friend who I battle against on a regular basis (Skaven...) has decided he wants to collect Dwarves. He's tactically poor which is something that's always worked in my favour, as I've always been able to out play him, no matter what armies we use. But I just don't see any way of beating Dwarves, fear won't work and Dwarves apparently have quite a large dispel dice pool. So the only thing I can think of is trying to make sure that I use a lot of flankers, is there anything else I could consider?

Try this. take some Dire wolves (5 is good since they cant flee and are goning to die but it will pay off) and run them up the flank towards the last unit on the dawrven flank. angle the wolves a little so that when they finish combat they will wave to spend a turn reforming. With the reform and dwarven slownes that unit is now out of your hair for about 2 turns. You were also talking about flanking try this banner. "Banner of the Dead Leagion" Put it on a Wight Lord and mount (make sure to get him a good save) him up with 5-6 black knights with barding. Thay get D6 extra unit strenght. Now that unit can run around and even if every single black knight is killed that with lord can still cancel out rank bonus (unit str 2 and a of 3+). Prtty nifty. Obviosly avoid banshees. Forget the 2 Spirt Host people usually use to nail flanks. Dwarves have minor runes all over the place and they like to take em just for that. An watch out for the "rune of immolation", i dont know if the new dwarf book has it but if it does it can really mess up your artillery hunters.


On a side note i was thinking (still dont have the new rules), on a positive note dont the new magic rules make "Remains in Play" spells better since oppenents have to spend precios power dice to dispel them. I would love to see Curse of Years on a 2+ on my friends @#$% 30 strong slayers that he ALWAYS takes. And how do dwarves dispel remain in play without power dice?

So what are VCs to do if the enemy knows they are facing a undead army and all they have to do is shut down the magic phase with dispel scrolls. Even if i take a zombie or skelli heavy army things are sounding pretty grim untill next october. I would sugest forgetting about the magic phase and beefing up on zombies and skellis. then take a dire wolf unit for every unit of zombie and skelli for flank attack. but then i would wouldnt have points for all thouse other nice units and i wouldnt have the integral vanhels to get the wolve in! <zombie moan>

Hey HATE TRAIN i love your little picture thing. Cannibal Corpse is awesome! I have Gore Obsessed and Gallery of Suicide and i use to have Bloodthirst but it got lost. Pounded into Dust always reminded me of pages 84-85 of the 6th ed fantasy rule book. A frnzyed khorne army going to town, hehe. Sorry for getting off the subject guys.

Sorry for the bad speeelgin it is late and i am tired!

nokturnal
02-10-2006, 15:09
I was reading the thread and noticed alot of you mentioned the increased leadership of white lords being some kind of benefit...?
Im a lil confused as to why this would strike you as being a benefit? As far as i know, leadership shouldnt help a vampire count army...as they cant break or be feared, so can someone explain what im missing here?

thanks

UNKNOWN CTAN
02-10-2006, 15:12
if your general dies your army turns to dust if you fail a LD test for each unit and the amount you lose by is how many modles dies so a unit of zombies
Ld:2 is led by a wight lord they become ld 9.

Benji550
02-10-2006, 15:13
Leadership is used for the death of the General so that the army doesnt crumble in one turn.

greymeister
02-10-2006, 20:35
If it comes down to the general dying....spend the extra hero slot for a vampire lord and don't die as often ;)

Karhedron
02-10-2006, 22:19
My Vampire Count has never never died yet. :) However considering he is a Blood Dragon with all the associated combat nastiness that is not altogether suprising. I find that VCs really benefit from a few combat monsters in their front ranks and it is worth sacrificing a bit of magic power for this.

sephiroth87
02-10-2006, 23:54
My count has died in all sorts of ugly ways...

Cannonball to the face (there's always a one on that look out sir roll....)
Tomb Scorpion to the face (he's charging HOW FAR?)
Screaming Skull Catapult to the face (You get to shoot TWICE?)
Stuffed in Giant Pocket (that's funny. Wait, the giant really stuffs him in his pants?)
Warp Lightning Cannon to the face (You're shooting me through the TREES? THAT'S ********!)

Needless to say, my Vampire Counts were a steep learning curve for me.

Frankly
03-10-2006, 06:07
My Vampire Count has never never died yet. :)

WoW.

I've killed V.C. counts with skink chiefs.

Combat builds are the easiest to kill, they're in the front lines and easier to target. Easiest are B.Dragons, its actually one of their downfulls, having to takechallenges.

Master Necro's are the hardest to kill IMO, you can hide away behind units or terrain, wear the Cloak of mists, maybe have a ward save, plus you have lots of anti-magic.

But Combat Counts just get everything throwen at them in the opening turns.
Like Sephiroth, my count have died to more things than you can point a stick at.

Keller
03-10-2006, 17:24
My Vampire general (often a Lord, sometimes a Count) rarely dies. I play Carstien, putting the general in a unit of zombies in the center of the line for protection. He adds enough power to the unit to make them formidable, but his job is to direct the battle with Aura of Dark Maj. If there are any really tough units, Thralls w/ greatweapons and their escorting units of zombies/skeletons/wights engage them. Should anything get to my general, he is quite capable against most things.

Of course, thats not to say he never dies. Some games I just play reckless for fun; like sending a Strigoi Lord unsupported into a full unit of infantry to see how many he can take down.

Marcusfudds
03-10-2006, 18:35
Here is a topic that i have trouble with! Never have trouble choosing my army (usually) but often tricking out my vamps becomes a problem. I mean i have my combos and standbys but nothing ever feels right. I suppose i could just go on th forums and look up army lists but it seems so unoriginal (no offense if you do that, just not my style). On a Von Carstein this is what i usually take. Criticism is welcome. Tomb Blade, Walking Death, and Aura of Dark Majesty on Foot in a skellie unit. It absorbs casulties from lost combat and the walking death and dark majasty ARE the reasons Carstein (if that hast already been said then i am saying it now, hehe). Not really a challenge monster but then some chars take magic items just to get the stats that we already have starting at!

Benji550
04-10-2006, 22:25
I like to take a BDragon with the 10 piont upgrade in the blood lines that makes the opponent who accepts the challenge take a Ld test, if failed they count as having declined the challenge.
Also the re rolls in first round is pretty nice too

Marcusfudds
05-10-2006, 18:34
Everybody is talking about what they like to take and this and that but i for one have yet to play a game with the new rules everybody is lamenting about. These characters are all nice and good but how hard is it to get spells off? Has anybody managed to do well in the magic phase? I agree that strong chars are important but they wont win you combat, combat resolution will. And that is accomplishaed with blocks of skellies and/or zombies with dire wolves to flank and cancel rank bonus and swing tthe combat by (1 standard,3 ranks, 1 outnumber,1 flank) 5 points (usually and ideally of course). Combat included, that will be a tough fight to win for the opposition. And like i mentioned with Spirit Hosts before, they are the ultimae flanking unit.
It is true that chars are important because the stats of our troops are so astoundingly low and the lords and heros are out of this world (for the most part ;). Lets think in terms of CR again. How many more points could you save buy taking a master necro instead of the count (40pts) or lord(100pts). The master will allow for MORE raisings (there is that precious outnumber bonus), MORE spells, MORE points saved. I guess it may seem boring to not take the vamps but thralls are always an option.
This is worth mentioning. Now that lone models cant hide next to units our generals and wizards are not safe anymore. Now they have to be put in units and sent into the dangerous world of combat. Where poeple are likely to throw as many attacks as they can against them to get rid of a spellcaster (hey i would). So why endanger the general like that. Make it a master necro and put it in the back. Maybe on a flying nightmare, its a Large Target so it will allow you to see everything therefore cast everywhere, coupled with mobility. Since we are dicussing char slections how about this:
level4 Master necro on Flyin nightmare
Skull Staff
OR
Book of Arkhan
and
Wristbands of Black Gold
2 necros level
vemp thrall
i know this is contrary to what i said earlier about ignoring the magic phase but i had a good idea, hehe. tell me if it sounds dumb or not

Marcusfudds
05-10-2006, 18:36
oops sorry i should have spaced that out a little better sorry for making it an eyesore! :(

greymeister
05-10-2006, 18:41
Dire Wolves will not take away ranks, they are Fast Cavalry :(

The new rules aren't bad, but so far the Miscast table has helped my opponent when he miscast, but not hurt me as bad as some of the things on the old table did when I miscast. The table is actually not that bad as long as you don't roll double 1's or 6's.

I always use 2 Necros when I can, plus whoever my general is. My All-Star necromancer is this one:

Level 2 upgrade
Book of Arkhan
Dispel Scroll

His bound item makes all the difference (unless he runs out of pages :P ). It forces the people I play against to save 3 dispel dice to stop the magic-phase charge, rather than all the other spells I cast. Of course that's except the one guy who rolls 10+ on 2 dice EVERY TIME HE ROLLS 2 DISPELL DICE!!!!!! :(

perrin23860
05-10-2006, 20:54
Dire Wolves will not take away ranks, they are Fast Cavalry :(


fast cavalry do indeed negate rank bonuses, if they have a unit strength of five or more, and charge in the flank or rear.

fast cavalry just do not gain rank bonuses for being in more than one rank of five or more models.

Nkari
05-10-2006, 21:34
3 basic ingredients in _any_ VC army..

Book of arkhan
Staff of damnation
Black Periapt

;)

greymeister
06-10-2006, 03:35
fast cavalry do indeed negate rank bonuses, if they have a unit strength of five or more, and charge in the flank or rear.

fast cavalry just do not gain rank bonuses for being in more than one rank of five or more models.

I stand corrected, I have no idea where that came from.

Tutore
06-10-2006, 04:04
I use to play against dwarves. Beware: under the new rules of the new dwarf armybook, there are many stubborn units. attacking flanks with small units like wolves won't be too useful against them. only outnumbering works. As for irriducible units (trollslayers) remember the 7th edition says clearly that they are also immune to psychology (=fear).

EvC
06-10-2006, 07:55
Did it ever not clearly say that Slayers were immune to psychology?

Nkari
06-10-2006, 08:03
Um, ofc killing off the rank bonus with a flank charge is worth it.. thats 4 more wounds he has to do to you to make up for the lost ranks and flank bonus.. 3+1. wich will makes things much easier to autobreak..

vorac
06-10-2006, 08:54
IMO in it's newly improved form the dwarf army can stand up to any undead army and kick it's butt. I've been playing VC for 7 years since 5th and in 6th my friend suffered terribly against me with his dwarfs but nowadays i can't do squat, wolves are crappy because they can't hurt them not even the crossbowmen now that they can have great weapons, the thunderers are scary, they have really good runes,their artillery got improved and the rune of courage can be placed on practically every banner.

There are 2 options Lots of magic and i mean 14 powerdice and all the bound stuff with only zombies because your gonna lose most of the fights or Blooddragons in a mounted army, but if anyone has any ideas please share.

sephiroth87
06-10-2006, 14:05
Yes, you can win against a dwarf army. Dwarfs really aren't that great of fighters (they're not maneuverable AT ALL), but they're pretty tough. However, the trick is to simply raise enough undead to get in their lines and tie up a unit or two. The other trick is to not waste your dice and getting greedy. By this, I mean that you shouldn't try to get a 7+ invocation of nehek off using two dice. And you don't need 14 power dice to do it. You do need to be judicious in how you use your dice, and simply throw out cheap 3+ spells to make him waste his dice. Most people will throw two dice against your one, especially if you roll pretty high (5 or 6). Do this a couple of times with your necromancers. Then when he's spent a few dice, you can start throwing out a bigger invocation to raise a new unit, Vanhel's Danse Macabre, Curse of Years, all your bound items, or even the big invocation. And that Rod of Flaming Death isn't completely useless against the dwarfs. If you keep doing it, there's a chance that they can panic, even with their high leadership. And it's another spell that makes him burn dice, so it's useful there, too.

As far as fights go, I've never had a problem breaking a dwarf unit with a pack of zombies, especially against units without great weapons. Run the zombie unit up, Danse the unit into the dwarfs, and wait for him to have a bad round. With strength 3, there's a pretty good chance that he'll have a bad round.

zakk_wylde001
07-10-2006, 12:59
I've finally come to the decision that using Skeletons over Zombies is quite pointless. The only real difference is the fact Zombies always strike last. I'd rather take a ravening horde of Zombies than a few "elite" Skeleton units. Anyone else thought about this? Or is it just me being an imbecile?

samw
07-10-2006, 14:58
I've finally come to the decision that using Skeletons over Zombies is quite pointless. The only real difference is the fact Zombies always strike last. I'd rather take a ravening horde of Zombies than a few "elite" Skeleton units. Anyone else thought about this? Or is it just me being an imbecile?

The point of skellies is that with HW&S they last twice as long in combat as unarmoured zombies. Against an enemy with many low strength attacks like beastmen or witch elves they can be a better option. They also have a champion upgrade that can keep your necros safe from wandering heros.

Marcusfudds
07-10-2006, 18:28
Put a level2 necro with Staff of Damnation behind 3 zombie units. Just boost with raise dead and use the staff to make the zombies killing machines. Simple but effective.

Marcusfudds
07-10-2006, 18:40
Dire Wolves will not take away ranks, they are Fast Cavalry :(

The new rules aren't bad, but so far the Miscast table has helped my opponent when he miscast, but not hurt me as bad as some of the things on the old table did when I miscast. The table is actually not that bad as long as you don't roll double 1's or 6's.

I always use 2 Necros when I can, plus whoever my general is. My All-Star necromancer is this one:

Level 2 upgrade
Book of Arkhan
Dispel Scroll

His bound item makes all the difference (unless he runs out of pages :P ). It forces the people I play against to save 3 dispel dice to stop the magic-phase charge, rather than all the other spells I cast. Of course that's except the one guy who rolls 10+ on 2 dice EVERY TIME HE ROLLS 2 DISPELL DICE!!!!!! :(

Thanks a bunch for the response i really would rather hear stories of what has happened than what might or can happen. Frankly i was starting to have second thoughts about my fav army. I do have the rat men to play you know but then what would i tell Nagash when he comes around? "sorry the VCs sucked i had to switch for a little while" <ZAP> ;)

Keller
07-10-2006, 18:56
I've finally come to the decision that using Skeletons over Zombies is quite pointless. The only real difference is the fact Zombies always strike last. I'd rather take a ravening horde of Zombies than a few "elite" Skeleton units. Anyone else thought about this? Or is it just me being an imbecile?

I also prefer zombies over skellies, though skellies shouldn't be discounted all together. With LA, HW/S they get a 4+ save which will keep them standing against most enemies, those with S4 or less. But with LA, they are 10 points/model, 4 more than a zombie.

I like zombies based on 3 things. Firstly, they are cheap to buy, so units of 25+ aren't terribly expensive overall. Secondly, they are easier to raise through Invocation, though I rarely find myself relying on that spell. Lastly, and most importantly, zombies are just a much cooler concept than skeletons, IMO. I hope that in next edition they get more zombie-esque rules to set them apart though.

Keller
07-10-2006, 18:57
Put a level2 necro with Staff of Damnation behind 3 zombie units. Just boost with raise dead and use the staff to make the zombies killing machines. Simple but effective.

Just be wary of magic/shooting. Characters on foot are no longer protected by units they are near and can be freely targeted if anyone can see them. Just summon a small unit to hide in and soak up the missiles.

Karhedron
07-10-2006, 19:03
I've finally come to the decision that using Skeletons over Zombies is quite pointless. The only real difference is the fact Zombies always strike last. I'd rather take a ravening horde of Zombies than a few "elite" Skeleton units. Anyone else thought about this? Or is it just me being an imbecile?
I think it all comes down to personal taste, I prefer armoured skeletons. I tend to play a Blood Dragon army so I don't usually have too much magic, I find that zombies work better with plenty of Invocations and Hellish Vigour floating around.

The problem I find with zombies is that they take a lot of casualties and then suffer even more in combat resolution. Even with a Blood Dragon in the front rank and a unit of 30, I find that my Zombies usually end up falling apart (and often taking the vamp with them as they go). Each skeleton saved by his armour is effectively worth two by the time you take the effect of CR into account. With the 4+ save, Skellies just hang around a lot longer before they need topping up. Plus D6 10 point skellies always seemed better to me than D6+1 6 point zombies.

Plus the idea of armoured soldiers fit better with the feel of Blood Dragons than a shambling horde of zombies. Having said that, I can see zombies looking better in a more magically inclined army.

zakk_wylde001
07-10-2006, 19:07
I also prefer zombies over skellies, though skellies shouldn't be discounted all together. With LA, HW/S they get a 4+ save which will keep them standing against most enemies, those with S4 or less. But with LA, they are 10 points/model, 4 more than a zombie.

True. I'd like to have main blocks of Zombies with a few "elite" Skeleton units to boost combat (I never thought I'd ever be able to call Skeletons elite and be honest about it...). I've managed to lose my VC book though and having 6 months without any interest in Warhammer, I'm finding it increasingly difficult to talk about it.
A trip to GW is in order I do believe.

sephiroth87
07-10-2006, 21:39
The trick to using skeletons is to give them light armor, standard, and musician, and only buy 10 of them. Then you have a unit that you can build on throughout the game. All you really need to make this a viable unit is to get off one invocation of nehek, then you've got a solid skeleton unit that LASTS, unlike the zombies.

Zombies are ok, but their best use comes from raising up new units 18'' away and either getting behind units, blocking line of sight, redirecting charges, and charging war machines and shooting units. Skeletons, even though they're more expensive, have a good armor save, strike before great weapons, and generally hold up longer. They even kill stuff sometimes, which is just an added bonus.

But with undead, you want your static combat resolution going up against their kills. Zombie units just hand your opponent combat res bonuses, especially since they're easy to kill and strike last.

Start out with skeletons, not zombies. Just make more zombies, especially since you can get a lot of them quickly all over the board.

Multifarious
07-10-2006, 21:45
Dire Wolves will not take away ranks, they are Fast Cavalry

Where in the rule book is that, I had a look earlier and couldn't find it. Not disbelieving you, simply interested.

Morgrin
07-10-2006, 22:08
It's not in the rulebook. You will find the following there tough:

Fast Cavalry cannot benefit from ranks, but they do take away rank bonus of enemy units hit in the flank or rear (as long as there are at least three models in the flanking cavalry unit).

greymeister
08-10-2006, 05:07
I 100% agree with Sephiroth. Fill out core with Skeleton units and then take Ghouls to flee from charges to set them up for you.

I use a "zombie bunker" sometimes for one necro, 10 zombies with command that I stick a necromancer in, then if I need another unit, a couple of invokations later and it's able to tarpit. Other than that though, I run as many skeletons as I can and they tear through unit after unit when they aren't immune to fear. If they're unbreakable or immune, well what can I say....I hope that I win in other places on the battlefield :(

sralialo
08-10-2006, 12:34
I only use zombies for bodyguard units, to keep my necro's alive. For CC, and with my Blood Dragon General, I use Skellies with LA, which I think work very well. Yes, they cost more than zombies, but what you get is worth it, IMO, as with a 7+ Invocation you get an average of 7 Skellies, which IMO is far better than the 9 Zombies you get.

I usually field two units of 15 or 18 (5 wide, don't ask...) of Skellies with LA, and a 10ish zombie bodyguard unit that hang out in the back...

The only exception is that when I raise a brand new unit right in front of warmachines, I make zombies, as you have a better chance of actually getting the unit, even if it gets through. (Anyone besides me that has gotten throught that "all-so-important" invocation, only to roll snake eyes for how many you make?)

Marcusfudds
08-10-2006, 12:59
Just out of curiosity can scrolls be combined with other arcane items. I know that you can take multiple scrolls but can you take a scroll AND an arcane or is it one or the other? That constantly confused me (i always just took a scroll or arcane to avoid problems)!

Also something that i think people are forgetting is support units. Even a poor stat unit like zombies czn easily win combat with some grave guard/spirt host/dire wolves/monster flanking with vanhels in the same turn or charging in the next turn. After all we have the luxury of never having to worry about breaking and running off so combat is locked and the flank is enevitable. So as long as each zombie unit has a suport unit it should be able to hold its own. I think people who like skeletons who are right though. Say supported zombies and unsupported skellies (save points) to hold combat until rest of force arrives. At least in theory ;) ? Comments.

Keller
08-10-2006, 20:55
Personally, I never like relying on summoning in my armies. Its too easy for an opponent to shut down your Invocation spells (and anything else at times) to make it a strong battle plan. I just don't think its a good idea to start with small units in hopes of bumping them up. Opponents can watch for the Invocation and make sure that unit never gets stronger, then just walk right through those 10 skeletons with little difficulty.

Grunge
08-10-2006, 22:17
Now you see, I have the complete opposite view... Ive found blood dragons to be quite possibly the WORST bloodline hands down. Always having to issue/accept challenges is a HUGE and CRIPPLING disadvantage in many combats and quite simply can lose you the game very easily.

- g0ddy

Well I take it you know how Challenges and Combat Resolution from them are worked out, right? How many single Charaters can take a WS 10, strght 7, 6 attacks beast with killing blow or any other sort of nasty trick?How many wounds do actually fail? (I'm speaking MOST of the time here)

The Lord/Count choice depends solely if its a tournament army or not (or if you wanna win it or not). With a Necromancer/magic/necrarch/Von Carstein wtv, its really hard (not impossible) to get a massacre,you will get Draws most of the time.

And yes it is possible to play VC without magic. I personally play mostly Blood Dragons with an army with no unit with less than 6 movement and I take the Lord on a Winged Nightmare.

As I see it, Vampire Counts can work well with magic but they definitely put up a better fight.Beeing Blood Dragons or Strigoi!


Dont forget your opponent takes the points for any unit you create and he manages to kill, so summoning heavy sometimes is not very clever!

greymeister
09-10-2006, 02:53
The Lord/Count choice depends solely if its a tournament army or not (or if you wanna win it or not). With a Necromancer/magic/necrarch/Von Carstein wtv, its really hard (not impossible) to get a massacre,you will get Draws most of the time.


I'm wondering which (Lord or Count) is the choice you you think you should take if you want to win? It seems like the extra hero in 2000 points is worth taking a Count, especially if you're a blood dragon and have less magic to help you out.

As far as running with no magic....I guess bravo because the way I see it Vampire Counts use magic one way or another, and while against some opponents you'll have a harder time getting spells off, they pay dearly to be able to stop you (unless they're Khorne or Dwarves).

Frankly
09-10-2006, 07:01
The Lord/Count choice depends solely if its a tournament army or not (or if you wanna win it or not). With a Necromancer/magic/necrarch/Von Carstein wtv, its really hard (not impossible) to get a massacre,you will get Draws most of the time.



Hmmm, I disagree.

You don't need a Lord to do well at all, actually you'll usefully get done on comp points and army selection which will break you from getting into the top 3-5 place in most tournaments I play in. And IMO, Master Necro armies are the hardest to win against outright for most armies in tournaments. They're vertile, having all the hitting power and supporting units of any other V.C. armylists, while having the ability to hide your General and keep him out of trouble.

You can rely solely on the magic and movement phases to win tournaments for you, 14 - 18 P.Dice + 2 or 3 bound spells can give you an almost unstoppable magic phase(khorne and Southlands being the 2 anti-magic armies that have every really negated my magic phase).

Even with all those P.Dice, I still wouldn't start with units under 15 models(and I rarely use L.Armour on skellies either), The magic phase has to be really agressively and succeed in setting up to and/or destroying enemy units through numbers, danse(and flanking) and fear, spending magic phases on raising troops that you could have brought in the armylist is a bit of a waste of P.Dice, time and options IMO. It's better to start the game with an armylist thats ready to go than one thats starts on the back foot.

Frankly
09-10-2006, 07:14
As far as running with no magic....

I ran armylists with no or next to no magic in them, they're actually my favorite armylist to play(especially SoC). They actually run really well, just like any other non-magic amrylist like empire all knights for example. You just have to replace the magic phase with some other game winning aspect, I usually use the movement phase since V.C. armies have access to 3 units that are at the top of their class for points cost for effectiveness: B.Knights, Dire wolves and Fell bats.

I've built my non-magic armylists around dire wolves being the meat and bones and true work horses of the armylists, whiles B.knight, thralls and wight hero's being the units destroyers.

Its a pretty fun way to play V.C., your still using the basic tactic's of fear breaking and outnumbering, but you using it with 12 units of wolves running around the battle field targeting support units, flanks, wizards, etc, etc with 18 charge ranges.

Hiisi
09-10-2006, 08:36
i belive that the Necrarch are the best for they truely can summon troops faster than they die
take skellies to the original army list and summon hordes of zombies, and put your count on a w-nightmare and fly away from the evil anemy heroes theres some advice i havent yet tried it
for i have not enough models but in theory it hould work?

DeathlessDraich
09-10-2006, 11:51
Has anyone experimented with Lahmian VC successfully?

sephiroth87
09-10-2006, 17:16
Even with all those P.Dice, I still wouldn't start with units under 15 models(and I rarely use L.Armour on skellies either), The magic phase has to be really agressively and succeed in setting up to and/or destroying enemy units through numbers, danse(and flanking) and fear, spending magic phases on raising troops that you could have brought in the armylist is a bit of a waste of P.Dice, time and options IMO. It's better to start the game with an armylist thats ready to go than one thats starts on the back foot.

That's assuming you think it's on the back foot. I know I can reliably (almost all of the time) raise zombies and skeletons. What I can't raise is lots of fast stuff, like wolves and black knights, which I take lots of. In my list, everything is running 14 inches, 18 inches, or 20 inches, with a couple of small infantry units in back. Taking any infantry units at all is simply a need for me to protect the general and the necromancers, especially since my general gives my army an 18'' leadership range. He rarely fights. And the skeletons and zombies can fight in a pinch with a little raising, but it's not necessary unless I'm dealing with an army a lot more maneuverable than me. I normally use my invocations to summon 18'' away to rear and flank charge units.

People could shoot my 10 light armored skeletons, but they're usually a lot more worried about 6 Dire Wolf Units and 2 units of Black Knights right on top of them.

An VC army list is on the back foot if you take lots of tiny units and you're depending on them to win. However, you don't need block infantry as the core of your army to win with undead.

greymeister
09-10-2006, 17:23
Well my only problem with the wolves/knights list is that if you're skimping on the size of your skeleton units, how are you going to outnumber your opponent to make them autobreak? I have tried bringing wolves a few times only to have all my opponent's shooting go into them. Also, they never kill anything, so all they're basically good for is a flank attack. Knights suffer from the fact that if I lose combat by 1 single point, I lose a whole black knight.

The way I see it, if you're going to use black knights and wolves, they are still going to need a horde to make sure you outnumber your opponent. Alone these units still won't kill enough. That's why I've resorted to using huge blocks of skeletons along with a few other units and Grave Guard. My ghouls flee to make people fail charges and then my units smash into their flank. Also, the general I've found is only safe when amongst tons of skeletons, zombies die too fast and black knights and grave guard don't come back, so they end up leaving you open. Remember, if you get to < US5 the character can be picked out.

I have totally gotten away from using Wolves, but I'm thinking of trying Black Knights again. I really have to make sure that they only charge into a combat with someone else already ensuring that I outnumber though.

sephiroth87
09-10-2006, 17:58
Outnumbering is not a problem. Let's say that you have 8 knights charging. That's a unit strength of 16. Now add a flanking wolf attack. With the 5 models that I take, that's a unit strength of 10. That's 26. There aren't many people that run with more than a US of 26. Factor in the flank bonus, the taking away of ranks and straight kills from getting to charge first, and you're usually doing more than ok from a single charge.

You can easily break a unit without infantry. You just have to use that 18'' movement to swing wide and hit them in the flank.

greymeister
09-10-2006, 18:56
Well in that example it's still as I said, you'll be needing to hit with both of those units at once in order to be effective, whereas I can hit with one skeleton unit, in the front even, and while I won't kill as many things as black knights, a 25 man skeleton unit will not die in one turn, and then I can flank them with whatever next turn to destroy them, or just summon more than they kill and eventually roll over them.

With those wolves and knights you will get no ranks, and so you're looking at outnumber, a banner if your knights have it, and flank. They won't have ranks as long as there are 2.5 knights or wolves in the flank, which if it's wolves they won't hold the flank long at all against most units, they die as easily as zombies.

Overall, I'd much rather gamble on getting at least one summon off for zombies, and then using my book to have them flank charge a unit the skeletons are engaged with. Even if the summon doesn't go off, or they dispel vanhel's, the skeletons still last longer than either wolves or knights on their own in my experience. I went 8 power dice against 13 dice the other day and still got off spells, even with one of my necromancers having his Invocation eaten by the dirty dwarf scroll.

But like I said, those are my experiences, and if wolves and knights work for you then you must be doing something I'm not, or playing against less shooty armies, or maybe against armies with more scroll caddies -> :cheese:

Edit: As a side note, when I said less shooty, I mean I regularly play against someone who has 2 units of 15 shades, and 2-4 bolt throwers, and lots of dark riders, which is about as shooty as it gets. Those scouting shades take out wolves every time if they go first.

zakk_wylde001
13-10-2006, 06:54
So, how useful are Ghouls in a 1,500 point army?
I've only just re-purchased the army book and there's a lot of things that I've forgotten, so help is much appreciated :)

Marcusfudds
21-10-2006, 01:10
Against shooty armies fight fire with fire. Try out Mengils Manflayers they are a dog of war unit that is awesome.
http://us.games-workshop.com/games/warhammer/gaming/dogsofwar/default.htm
the modsels are great too!

Ghouls are always a good idea. They can flee as stated before and can act as screens. Their poisoned attacks are infinatly useful against big monstres (not alwas seen in litle games). Take em a few times and marvel at their manuverability.

Karhedron
21-10-2006, 21:45
So, how useful are Ghouls in a 1,500 point army?

Marcusfudds is spot on, Ghouls are an excellent choice. Tough, manouvrable and capable of dealing with even big nasties thanks to their poisoned claws. Like the true undead, they need to stay near the general although in their case it is in order to used his leadership for once. :)

zakk_wylde001
22-10-2006, 11:18
Well I had my first game with VC's in over a year yesterday (against O 'n' G's using 6th ed rules) and I must say it went surprisingly well.
2 big units of Skellies
2 units of dire wolves
Vampire Thrall
2 Necromancers

He used two units of wolf riders, boar boyz, 20 Orcs with additional hand weapons a shaman and some boss'.

I must say, overall it went very well, my dire wolves did an amazing job of tying up the Boar Boyz for two turns which gave my skellies chance to autobreak the Boyz in the centre. I managed to raise more Skellies to flank charge the Boar Boyz when they finally got into combat and my Thrall took out a unit of Wolf Boyz all on his own. A very pleasing result to say the least!

Souleater
07-11-2006, 16:01
In 1k points would I as a beginner be better off with 2 Level 2 Necros or a single one and a Count?

I'm still getting to grips with the whole 'winning by CR' stuff, is why I ask. A count seems expensive while I'm still playing at such low points.

Cheeers.

greymeister
07-11-2006, 16:17
Count is only legal in 2000 or bigger, it's a lord choice. Your options < 1000 are:

Necromancer (general option)
Vampire Thrall (Necrarch can be a General)
Wight Lord
Wraith

Most agree I think that 2 level 2's are bare minimum for a VC army to function, and after that, there is alot of different opinions on whether to take a third character at all. Generally, character overload is a bad thing, but with VC, take 'em if you got 'em I say. A wight lord or a Strigoi/Blood Dragon/von Carstein thrall is a good third hero that can kill alot of stuff and help out your crappy troops who can only win by CR.


Another alternative I see people here talking about, and while it looks interesting on paper, I don't see it working in the game: using alot of fast units, Dire Wolves and Black Knights instead of massed skeleton regiments.

javaguru
07-11-2006, 18:34
Count is only legal in 2000 or bigger, it's a lord choice. Your options < 1000 are:

Necromancer (general option)
Vampire Thrall (Necrarch can be a General)
Wight Lord
Wraith

Most agree I think that 2 level 2's are bare minimum for a VC army to function, and after that, there is alot of different opinions on whether to take a third character at all. Generally, character overload is a bad thing, but with VC, take 'em if you got 'em I say. A wight lord or a Strigoi/Blood Dragon/von Carstein thrall is a good third hero that can kill alot of stuff and help out your crappy troops who can only win by CR.


Another alternative I see people here talking about, and while it looks interesting on paper, I don't see it working in the game: using alot of fast units, Dire Wolves and Black Knights instead of massed skeleton regiments.

I've never had massed skeletons work for me since the HE book came out and everyone started to counter magic. I've used an all cav force successfully in two leagues, so successfully I haven't used it in years(I prefer a challenge). The fact a hard hitting cav unit can potentially fight two close combats in one turn also makes it attractive as well as two banners in one unit that stack. I used a unit of twelve as my primary, plus war banner on BSB+banner of barrows or 5+ ward save Vs. missile banner and walking death gives me a cr of 5 before a blow has been struck and by adding two character I've probably outnumbered most opponents which means an auto break. It's easy to screen the cav with wolves. Also, you don't have to spend 300+ points to dominate the magic phase and can spend the points on unis and killy characters.This is the VC army list that dominates the tournaments. Look at it this way, most armies will have a lvl2 scroll caddy, which will be a waste of points when fighting an army that doesn't care to cast a spell. I've made an infantry based low magic VC army work in 2,000 points, the new edition list I posted on the grave guard thread but it's a work in progress.

Spend 10 points for a crappy soldier that can be raised, which requires you spend 300+ points above and beyond the units to dominate the magic phase. The alternative is to spend 25 points for a model that can't be raised but is 10times more effective and requires no magic support.

greymeister
07-11-2006, 18:39
Take your all cav army against the Dark Elf army I see where I play alot and count them goodbye. It's still my strong opinion that the all cav/wolf army is going to fail against just as many armies as the standard skeleton horde will.

And you're still going to have to take a necromancer, unless you're using necrarchs, which since you don't like magic I guess you aren't....

Souleater
08-11-2006, 20:05
For smallish battles (1000pts) is it wise to start with fairly sturdy (20 minimum) units of Skellies or try and summon more later on?

I had my first proper game since 5th Ed last night and it was really good fun but I lost horribly. My necromancer's last sight was of a solid wall of Skaven.

I think where I went wrong was in trying to whittle down their vast numbers with gaze of nagash (and hold up their flanking unis with my poor wolves and fellbats, who I assumed would at least hold for a round but crumbled like a certain dairy milk chocolate).

Should I basically spend the first few turns madly trying to throw as many Zombies as possible into the path of the enemy?

And what does one do against a near soldi wall of ratmen? Throw zombies against one side and force them to arrive piece meal?

Any beginners tactics to VC/Fantasy would be greatly appreciated!

javaguru
08-11-2006, 23:45
Take your all cav army against the Dark Elf army I see where I play alot and count them goodbye. It's still my strong opinion that the all cav/wolf army is going to fail against just as many armies as the standard skeleton horde will.

And you're still going to have to take a necromancer, unless you're using necrarchs, which since you don't like magic I guess you aren't....

Well, since WHFB was balanced for 2k points that's what the store league and my group play but if I were playing in 1,500 points I would use Sylvania. Now, I've never had a problem with with dark elves or any other army. I would like to see the tournament army build that beats my all cav Von Carstein before spells are chosen, terrain deployed or models hit the table. I've had my all cav army hindered/beaten by bad rolls, a lack of terrain, unfavorable terrain but I have yet to been beaten so badly that I couldn't say I never had a chance based on army builds.

DisruptorX
08-11-2006, 23:48
Well my only problem with the wolves/knights list is that if you're skimping on the size of your skeleton units, how are you going to outnumber your opponent to make them autobreak?

10 strong regiments of black knights?

javaguru
08-11-2006, 23:59
10 strong regiments of black knights?

Exactly, they are pretty cheap for their abilities and have a US 2 per model, which is why I used units of twelve, plus there is banner of the dead legion giving d6 more US, if you're really worried about it. This is even more true now that MSU is becoming the way to play for elite armies. I have no problems using a refused flank. Factor in DW's are dirt cheap and M9 you can get multiple units charging, especially since 5 models are now required for a rank bonus. How many infantry units have a US over 30?

javaguru
09-11-2006, 00:09
For smallish battles (1000pts) is it wise to start with fairly sturdy (20 minimum) units of Skellies or try and summon more later on?

I had my first proper game since 5th Ed last night and it was really good fun but I lost horribly. My necromancer's last sight was of a solid wall of Skaven.

I think where I went wrong was in trying to whittle down their vast numbers with gaze of nagash (and hold up their flanking unis with my poor wolves and fellbats, who I assumed would at least hold for a round but crumbled like a certain dairy milk chocolate).

Should I basically spend the first few turns madly trying to throw as many Zombies as possible into the path of the enemy?

And what does one do against a near soldi wall of ratmen? Throw zombies against one side and force them to arrive piece meal?

Any beginners tactics to VC/Fantasy would be greatly appreciated!

Magic missiles are best used on small units of skirmishers/cavalry or killing skaven weapon teams under the new rules.

I've never found a swamp'em strategy to work that well with undead since everyone started designing armies to counter magic, the obligatory scroll caddy. How many points did you spend on necro's and support magic to raise troops with goblin level fighting stats? I've been playing undead since they were one book under 5th and killy characters winning combats are how we have always won. Playing magic heavy just means you're moving against your strength. I hope the next incarnarnation of the VC book allows you to field an army without a necro under 2k but until then I can play Sylvania. Skeletons are horribly overpriced in the current list, I focus on specials and characters to win battles and not the fickle winds of magic.

greymeister
09-11-2006, 04:15
Well you have to admit, we have some of the best infantry in the game: Grave Guard.

Souleater
09-11-2006, 08:19
My necros were like this:

Necromancer (General) Level 2, Ring of Night, Black Periapt.

Necromancer, Level 2, Book of Arkhan, Dispel Scroll

That's just shy of 300pts, I think. I didn't take them 'just to raise more troops' but because I didn't have many points to buy other characters.

showmydog
09-11-2006, 10:39
Nah, Skeletons aren't overpriced. Fear is great!!

javaguru
09-11-2006, 22:18
Nah, Skeletons aren't overpriced. Fear is great!!

Fear is only great when you can win combats and outnumber your opponent in unit strength. Otherwise, it's a minor advantage, 7 is an average roll on two d6, and most armies are going to have a character, be it the general or other, so they actually have to roll well above average for it to have an effect in most circumstances.

javaguru
09-11-2006, 22:20
Well you have to admit, we have some of the best infantry in the game: Grave Guard.

I definitely agree with that, point for point, grave guard and black knights are some of the best units in the game. Alessio admitted he underpriced them....I anticipate a point cost increase in the next book.

DisruptorX
09-11-2006, 23:26
Black Knights are definately sick. 10 points less than chaos knights, and they hit harder as well as cause fear.

Souleater
10-11-2006, 08:08
Fear is only great when you can win combats and outnumber your opponent in unit strength. .

Yeah, that's the problem I had against the wall of Skaven. He didn't have any flanks to attack, and I had left it too late to start pumping up my units. I couldn't win the punching, and then got smashed down by CR.

Are skeletons overpriced to compenstate for the cheapness of te BK/GG? (as well as their raisability.

Nkari
11-11-2006, 00:03
But both GG and GK suffer from VS 3.. compared to most other cav.. or "elite" units out there..

EvC
11-11-2006, 11:34
It's true, making Banner of the Barrows a must if you put a Wight Lord into the unit... quip him with the Sword of Kings as well, and any high-armour save and wound character is in trouble if they fight that unit!

lois_griffin-must_die
11-11-2006, 14:17
Does no one realise that lords are so expensive because they are so powerful,people say that BLD aernt gud because they have to accept challenges and issue challenge

but my BLD with 18 charge has 6 A rerolling failed rolls to hit at S8 and killing blow
how the hell does that not give you at least 5 on combat res
with a unit of only 8 knights and a BSB wight lord with Banner of Doom and Banner of barrows that is a rediculously hard unit on the charge as wel as being a moderate spell caster able to cast inv. and with a necromancer can easily take away ranks with unit summon

kaulem
13-11-2006, 18:03
Hi everyone,
I played this army of sylvania this weekend vs darkelves.

Count & Knightly Retinue (15#, 765 Pts)
1 Von Carstein Vampire Count @ 353 Pts
General; Level 2 Upgrade; Hand Weapon; Lance; Undead
1 Nightmare @ [0] Pts
1 Book of Arkhan @ [25] Pts
1 Summon Wolves @ [25] Pts
1 Walking Death @ [35] Pts
1 Wolf Lord @ [10] Pts
13 Drakenhof Templars @ 412 Pts
Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Lance; Heavy Armor; Shield; Undead
1 Hell Knight @ [39] Pts
Hand Weapon; Lance; Heavy Armor; Shield
1 Banner of Doom @ [50] Pts
14 Nightmare @ [0] Pts

Black Coach (1#, 175 Pts)
1 Black Coach @ 175 Pts
Causes Terror; Chariot; Large Target
1 Wraith @ [0] Pts
Great Weapon
2 Nightmare @ [0] Pts

Thrall Bsb, WL & Drakenhof Guard (25#, 693 Pts)
22 Drakenhof Guard @ 425 Pts
Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Great Weapon; Full Plate Armor; Undead
1 Crypt Keeper @ [27] Pts
Hand Weapon; Great Weapon; Full Plate Armor
1 The Drakenhof Banner @ [50] Pts
1 Von Carstein Vampire Thrall (Battle Standard Beare @ 154 Pts
Hand Weapon; Heavy Armor; Battle Standard Bearer; Undead
1 Banner of the Barrows @ [45] Pts
1 Wight Lord @ 114 Pts
Hand Weapon; Heavy Armor; Undead
1 Sword of the Kings @ [25] Pts
1 Cursed Shield of Mousillon @ [25] Pts

Fell Bats (3#, 60 Pts)
3 Fell Bats @ 60 Pts
Flyer; Undead

Dire Wolves (5#, 65 Pts)
4 Dire Wolves @ 65 Pts
Scouts; Fast Cavalry; Undead
1 Doom Wolf @ [21] Pts
Scouts

Sylvanian Militia (12#, 135 Pts)
12 Sylvanian Militia @ 135 Pts
Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Crossbow; Light Armor; Undead

Sylvanian Militia (12#, 135 Pts)
12 Sylvanian Militia @ 135 Pts
Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Crossbow; Light Armor; Undead

Wraith & Hounds (8#, 218 Pts)
1 Wraith @ 138 Pts
Great Weapon; Causes Terror; Ethereal; Undead
1 Nightmare @ [0] Pts
1 Talon of Death @ [40] Pts
6 Dire Wolves @ 80 Pts
Fast Cavalry; Undead
1 Doom Wolf @ [20] Pts

Things started out very well, on the second turn, I was positioned to charge a unit of witch elves with both my chariot and my black nights... guess what happened!!! The witch elves had the Soulshadow standard which allows them to flee even if they are frenzy.

They called a break, I missed my charge, and the next turn, I was charged with all they got.

My count died because of Combat results, and my army quickly crumbled to dust.

Any advise on what I should of done differently...not knowing he had a Soulshadow standard in his unit???

I was soooo pissed on saturday :( I've been having a string of losses that I just can't seem to shake off.

kaulem
13-11-2006, 18:52
Black Knights are definately sick. 10 points less than chaos knights, and they hit harder as well as cause fear.

10 pts less, but 1 less attack, 3 WS less, 2 less Armor save + they crumble to dust if ever you should roll bad and lose a round of HtT or should you loose your general!

greymeister
13-11-2006, 20:19
Exactly. The WS3 HURTS alot against just about...everyone. Sure you can make them always hit on 3's at the cost of another couple of black knights, but that won't effect the fact that any other elite units in the game will hit you back on 3s. Also the HUGE fact that unlike other undead units, they aren't really good for huge units, and as such they don't often outnumber to autobreak. Your hope with a BK unit is a flank charge or to roll over a weaker unit to make your opponent's lines break. Then again, a unit of them is also useful against units that ignore fear as either they or grave guard are your only chance at beating them. That or your characters of course.

javaguru
14-11-2006, 02:12
Yeah, that's the problem I had against the wall of Skaven. He didn't have any flanks to attack, and I had left it too late to start pumping up my units. I couldn't win the punching, and then got smashed down by CR.

Are skeletons overpriced to compenstate for the cheapness of te BK/GG? (as well as their raisability.

Alessio admitted to underpricing GG/BK in a white dwarf interview after the army book was released. If you look at the the sylvania list, which gives you two "bound spells" minimum to raise bodies, a skeleton with HW+Shield+Spear is a point cheaper than the main list. You are paying for the ability to raise them as well as the points spent on weedy necros to raise them. I'll stand by my previous assertion, killy VC character win battles and not rank and file. I've been very successful following that philosophy.

javaguru
14-11-2006, 02:48
10 pts less, but 1 less attack, 3 WS less, 2 less Armor save + they crumble to dust if ever you should roll bad and lose a round of HtT or should you loose your general!

Lose a combat by one with chaos knights, even due to bad rolls, and you potentially lose the whole unit. Lose a round of combat with black nights or grave guard by one and you lose anothe rmodel and may not lose another model(BSB). Losing your general with GG is much better in terms of losing VP's with grave guard than skellies, LD8 Vs. LD3. You actually have to roll below average on 2d6(avg 7) to lose a grave guard or black knight model if your general is killed, which is more likely with a Nechrarch or especially a Necro leading your army. If you roll average you will lose four skeletons per round(40pts Vs 0). Chaos knights hit most other heavy cav on a 3+ as well, Chaos knights are a bad example, it's generally accepted weapon skill is less important than S, T, and A in that order.
Black Knight, lance HA, Shield and Barding 25 pts(full command +40)
Chaos Knights,lance ha, shield and barding 33 pts(full command +50)

Black knights have a 3+ save without barding at 10 points less than the chaos knights at a 2+. Methinks he is comparing chosen to black knights.....

Unbarded Black Knight, 23pts.
Chosen chaos knight,45 pts.

For almost twice the cost you get a +2 Armour Save, +2WS(the BK's still hit on 4+ and can hit on 3+ with banner of barrows),+1S,+2I+1A. You didn't factor in fear, magic weapons and killing blow in your evaluation. Fear is one of those variables I discuss that can totally screw your battle plan. Failing a charge in which you should have won hands down and being forced to receive a charge can be the difference between defeat and victory, it only requires +300 points for a minor victory in a 2k game.

Honestly, per point, black knights are the best heavy cavalry in the game in my opinion. That's not factoring the 10pt M9 screen VC can field Vs. the minimum 13pt meat shield chaos can field(14pts if you want to match the chaos screen on the charge). Sure they get a 6+ save for mounted riders but it's not worth the points in my experience.

javaguru
14-11-2006, 03:01
Exactly. The WS3 HURTS alot against just about...everyone. Sure you can make them always hit on 3's at the cost of another couple of black knights, but that won't effect the fact that any other elite units in the game will hit you back on 3s. Also the HUGE fact that unlike other undead units, they aren't really good for huge units, and as such they don't often outnumber to autobreak. Your hope with a BK unit is a flank charge or to roll over a weaker unit to make your opponent's lines break. Then again, a unit of them is also useful against units that ignore fear as either they or grave guard are your only chance at beating them. That or your characters of course.

Isn't the point of cavalry to charge as opposed to receiving? If you kill two or three models on your charge the WS differential means even less. Chaos Chosen Knights are head and shoulders above inner circle knights but they still can't afford to receive a charge, even less against black knights due to killing blow which could potentially negate that expensive chaos armour. Do the math, if a unit of ten chaos knights is charged by ten BK's who is most likely to win(even unequal points)? If your BK unit is unfortunate enough to get charged then you know your unit has to be destroyed and won't break by losing a combat by one(even more so for GG and the fact a killy character will probably be with it). It's generally accepted among players, ask the elven players(I'm not one), they pay too much for their WS and I characteristics because S, T and A are the most important characteristics.

Ozymandiass
16-11-2006, 18:56
Isn't the point of cavalry to charge as opposed to receiving? If you kill two or three models on your charge the WS differential means even less. Chaos Chosen Knights are head and shoulders above inner circle knights but they still can't afford to receive a charge, even less against black knights due to killing blow which could potentially negate that expensive chaos armour. Do the math, if a unit of ten chaos knights is charged by ten BK's who is most likely to win(even unequal points)? If your BK unit is unfortunate enough to get charged then you know your unit has to be destroyed and won't break by losing a combat by one(even more so for GG and the fact a killy character will probably be with it). It's generally accepted among players, ask the elven players(I'm not one), they pay too much for their WS and I characteristics because S, T and A are the most important characteristics.

I used to often send my Black Knights against my friend's Chosen Chaos Knights. Very rarely did I lose as even one killing blow is enough to seriously weaken a unit of Chaos knights. Sometimes, I would be stupid and even get my knights charged, and they still usually won due to their high armor save (with barding they still get a 4+ save vs. Chaos Knights) coupled with killing blow. Eventually, my opponent got wise and stopped trying to fight my knights with his.

I always field a unit of 9 or 10 knights and 90% of the time they make back well more of their points. The other 10% of the time, my opponent spends so much time trying to kill them that the rest of my army makes it across the board intact.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

greymeister
16-11-2006, 19:10
The only time I've lost a lot of knights is when playing against a jerk who plays O&G's and places his units in an echelon type formation to make sure he can release at least 6 fanatics into the unit which will wipe out any good knight unit. Fortunately at least the character and 4 knights that make it are still able to destroy whatever they charged but I would hate to see what happens to knight units that aren't immune to psychology.

But it's basically what's been said before, the rest of my army is intact, and since I destroy a unit so close to the rest of his army most of the time he panics all of his units and half flee.

Ozymandiass
16-11-2006, 21:49
Discovered a new tactic recently. It has always been a tactic to raise a unit of zombies behind an enemy unit. The unit can stop march moves and threaten with a rear charge. But I discovered a new use: cross-fire. With the new rules for fleeing, any unit that runs into an enemy is automatically destroyed. I used this against an expensive dwarf unit the other day. Auto-breaking them in combat and then auto-destroying them by the crossfire!

Technically this could work with any army that includes flyers. Just fly the unit right behind the enemy and then charge.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

EvC
17-11-2006, 00:26
Well crossfire has been the most obvious new tactic for VC in 7th edition, but if you can provide hints on how to get into the position to use it successfully... yay!!

javaguru
17-11-2006, 00:40
Well crossfire has been the most obvious new tactic for VC in 7th edition, but if you can provide hints on how to get into the position to use it successfully... yay!!

Use the same tactic you used to get a rear charge. It really isn't that hard..count on summoning or more reliably, send those flyers on a move behind a unit on the turn you charge into a combat you think you will win hands down...not easy with skellies or zombies.

javaguru
20-11-2006, 23:07
Well crossfire has been the most obvious new tactic for VC in 7th edition, but if you can provide hints on how to get into the position to use it successfully... yay!!

Flyers's combined with a charge of black knights.

Zanzibarthefirst
04-12-2006, 10:14
what would be th ebest 3 special chpoices to take against empire? I'm thinking fell bats to deal with war machines, black knights to deal with enemy cavalry and spirit hosts to protect whoever.

eleveninches
04-12-2006, 12:17
I ususally use a blood dragon count for my lord, with a nightmare, blood drinker sword, flayed hauberk, strength of steel and an additional comabt weapon.

I then have 3 lv2 necromancers, deployed behind my troops, casting neheks invokation over and over again. Hope for one of them to get curse of ages, in which case he will keep casting that over and over again. Give one of them a black periapt, and I always give a cloak of mist and shadows to the one on my flank. This makes it impossible for him to be killed by most enemy units that would charge my flank (makes him etheral). Also, if any of them do get wounded, they can heal each others wounds

I start of with 2x20 and 1x12 skeleton spearmen (I ALWAYS use spears for my skellies) , and keep summonning more each turn with my necromancers, moving slowly or not at all.

I have a strong unit of 8 black knights (+command) deployed with my VC and a black coach (those things are awesome). Then also accompany them with either a few units of 8 dire wolves or another single-rank black knights unit. This cavalry section of the army charges down one side of the battlefield into the flank of the opponant, and hopefully does enough damage for a few turns, by which time a lot more skeletons will have been summonned. If the cavalry section gets almost wiped out, i take my lord back to my skeleton line and have his wounds healed by a necro, and then have him sit with the ever-growing number of skeletons. Another obvious use for the cavalry section is to quickly destroy all enemy missile units before quickly retreating to the main skeleton line, which means that your necros can summon more and more skeletons each turn without moving, so that by the time that the enemy gets to your skeleton line, you will have hundreds of skelletons, and most of your necromancers and cavalry units to meet their charge.

I also have a banshee, which is rather kick-ass for troop-killing

I sometimes drop the black coach from the cavalry section and instead get a giant (from the DOW list), and have him at the side of the skeletons for counter-charge

kaulem
04-12-2006, 13:23
Hate to nit-pik, but... you cant have a magical sword and an additional hand weapon. :(

Zanzibarthefirst
04-12-2006, 14:01
if you had a large unit of Grave Guard, are bat swarms or spirti hosts best for screening them?

eleveninches
04-12-2006, 14:47
Hate to nit-pik, but... you cant have a magical sword and an additional hand weapon. I'll remember that for next time, but i hadnt had any complaints before. And there isnt much point giving him a shield, and his weapon is one handed, so he doesnt really do anything with his spare hand, does he?

EvC
04-12-2006, 16:38
You can't use an additional hand weapon whilst mounted either. Why not simply give him the Enchanted Shield and Barding on the Nightmare for a 0+ save and an additional 20 points for magic if you so choose!

eleveninches
05-12-2006, 07:44
I'll consider it. thanks.

Of course, the most important thing to remember when playing VC is to keep the general alive. There are 2 ways to do this.
1. Give him loads of wargear and upgrades so that he can kill loads of enemies, ands so that his points arent wasted.
2. Put him on a flying mount and keep him behind the lines (usually used by necrarch vampires)

The next most important thing is to take advantage of your summonning ability (i usually end up summonning over 100 skeletons in a 2k point game)

T10
05-12-2006, 09:18
Allow me to go out on a limb here and say that keeping the General alive isn't all that important. Sure, it sucks to lose a 3-500 point character (plus the 100 vp for him being the General), but it doesn't automatically lose you the game.

Large units and high-leadership units can weather the disintegration effect nicely for a couple of rounds, so unless you are laready losing the game you just need to stick with the programme.

The most extreme example I've seen was a Chaos army that managed to kill the Vampire general in turn three. At that point the Chaos army consisted of a Hell Cannon, two units of Warhounds and a Chaos Knights' Champion with a smug look on his face. Apart from the loss of the General, the undead army was pretty much intact and growing in numbers.

-T10

eleveninches
05-12-2006, 09:19
But skeletons and most other undead hae really low leadership, and are likely to start to crumble as soon as the general dies

T10
05-12-2006, 10:20
Yes, but at what rate? On an average failed leadership you stand to lose 4 skeletons (roll of 7). Most likely you'll lose 2-6 (roll of 5 to 9). With a character in there (Ld 7-8) you'll lose far fewer. If you lose heaps of skeletons/zombies in a unit you need to preserve you can still summon more.

The army-crumble rule isn't the worst thing you have going against you - the regular combat results cost you more. It's not an ideal situation, but it isn't hopeless.

What this means is that around turn four you should consider using your general a lot more agressively even if he isn't a tricked-out combat monster. Even if he's a spell-caster, you'll want to get him stuck in in order to *win* the fights, not have him skulk around the flanks.

-T10

eleveninches
05-12-2006, 10:35
yeah, i always use my blood dragon and his cavalry section to maximum effect.

T10
05-12-2006, 10:37
Even nerdy Nechrarch vampires know how to hit rank-and-file over the head with a cheap magic sword. The Sword of Battle puts hair on any vampire's chest!

-T10

eleveninches
05-12-2006, 11:52
IMO, blood drinker is invaluble (for keeping your general alive, mainly). Blood Dragons (which i normally use ) also have full plate mail (4+ base save) as standard, and then you have the optional flayed hauberk or the strength of steel or other blood dragon traits

EvC
05-12-2006, 17:00
Allow me to go out on a limb here and say that keeping the General alive isn't all that important. Sure, it sucks to lose a 3-500 point character (plus the 100 vp for him being the General), but it doesn't automatically lose you the game.

Of course it doesn't automatically lose you the game, but it will more often than not turn a draw or even a victory into a loss. With three crumble tests in a turn-four loss, you can expect all Dire Wolves (Who you might've relied on for table corners), Spirit Hosts, Banshees (Do they test?), Fell Bats and so on to be outright destroyed. Ghouls will have little chance of staying in the game if panicked (For example if a nearby unit disintegrates) or beaten in combat. Skeletons and Zombies without characters will lose several members a turn, and by then they will inevitably be engaged in combat, and the loss of such rank-and-file will also make them lose more and more to combat resolution. One bad roll - and it's pretty common to have at least one - will wipe out most of a unit of Black Knights.

It's not automatically the end of the game, but on average you'll easily lose another 300-500 VP's worth of troops. It's very easy to say "keep summoning", and perhaps if your General was a low-level Bllod Dragon you still have a chance, but the loss of your general will weaken your magic phase significantly.

P.S. eleveninches, if you really do summon 100 Skeletons per game, that means every turn all three of your Necromancers are each managing to summon at least five new Skeletons. Please bear in mind that a good general does not need to exagerate- and if you're not exagerating, then you're doing well shearly through luck ;) Don't takr this personally!

Tili
05-12-2006, 20:44
Somebody asked for some Lahmia bloodline info, and how to play 'em.
I've played them for over a year, and tried to stay (as always, very fluffy).
So here goes...

Characters:

As you know Lahmia vampires arent the best fighter in combat, they arent the best spellcasters, so what do they do then ? They are fast as hell, and can dodge blow in an instant in combat. They also have those very fluffy seduce powers, but sadly, they totally suck for what they cost...

Some Thrall builds I tried out:

*Innocence Lost, Sword of Battle
A very nice defensive build, very nice to give dent to charging units before they can touch you.

*Innocence Lost, Sword of Might
Kinda the same like the previous one, only -1 A and +1S.

*Asp Bow
This is something I like. This weapons lets you "snipe" at other characters, champions, war machine crew, etc...
With only a BS of 4 you should try to sit still and aim carefully.
This is really potent, now with the many wounds a spellcaster can get with those nasty miscast.

You can see, if you compare them to a Strigio or von Carstein Thrall, they are very vurnable. But they are still vampires, they are still better then the average human Heroe and do serious harm if used correctly.
They are best used defensivly, shooting at the enemies instead of charging them head on like other "lowly" bloodlines. They are used best to bodyguard the necromancers or positioned in Black knight units too increase their punch and shield them from flank attacks that might cripple them.

Countess Builds I tried out:

Sword of Striking, Innocence Lost,Quickblood
This is one of the most combat oriented Countess builds I tried. She hits mostly on 2+ , and wounds mostly on 2+ , with 4 attacks, thats almost garantueed combat resolution. She has a nice 5+ ward save and can always heal herself if needed with Invocation of Nehek. Its best to position her in a unit Black Knights as they are a very nice body gaurd. And one of the best hammer units.

List composition:
Mostly, my special slots were filled with Grave Guard and Black Knights. They just seem to fit as an elite army for the seductive Countess of my army. Some wolves, cause you need something fast in all lists. And mostly Skelletons equiped with Light Armor and Shields. I also took as many ethearal units that I could. Banshees suit this theme perfectly as do Spirit Hosts.

Its sad that you have to play really defensive for them to win. So basicly take some Necromancers(one with the book of Arkhan), a Thrall and a Count and hopefully get some spells trough. You basicly raise some units of skeletons that are very badly placed, but are still riscy for you oppenent to just leave alone. if they charge them, then you can charge their flank. If they dont, then the skeletons charge them. Its a win win situation.

I hope they will be better in the next update(I hope they will still be in the book)...

eleveninches
06-12-2006, 07:49
P.S. eleveninches, if you really do summon 100 Skeletons per game, that means every turn all three of your Necromancers are each managing to summon at least five new Skeletons. Please bear in mind that a good general does not need to exagerate- and if you're not exagerating, then you're doing well shearly through luck Don't takr this personally!
I play on rather large battlefields, so movement plays a huge part in my games, and it takes the enemy a few turns to even reach my lines.

DeathlessDraich
06-12-2006, 14:17
Somebody asked for some Lahmia bloodline info, and how to play 'em.
I've played them for over a year, and tried to stay (as always, very fluffy).
So here goes...


Thanks for the info. I've never tried Lahmian and probably won't:p . The other bloodlines seem to be far better.
However is it still fun playing Lahmian?
There will be radical bloodline changes in the next VC or so I've been told - probably mixing them up is now possible.

Tili
07-12-2006, 08:20
Thanks for the info. I've never tried Lahmian and probably won't:p . The other bloodlines seem to be far better.
However is it still fun playing Lahmian?
There will be radical bloodline changes in the next VC or so I've been told - probably mixing them up is now possible.

they are fun because nobody expects you to play this bloodline. Nodoby expects a defensive VC list.

ObiWan
02-03-2007, 16:21
Can you guys give me some advice against dwarfs? I've beaten them a couple of times, but there are two types of army I have problems beating, one the all infantry (ironbreaker, hammerer, longbeard, lords and thanes and a couple of warrior units) and the other a mega-shooty artillery (2 units of thunderers, one of quarrelers, 2 cannon, organ gun, grudge thrower)
I've tried strigoi with summon ghouls against the later, and I use a list with a 8 strong BK, zombies, 2 units of 3 fell bats and 2 units of 5 wolves to outmanouver but they get shot apart.

FatOlaf
02-03-2007, 16:46
I start of with 2x20 and 1x12 skeleton spearmen (I ALWAYS use spears for my skellies)

Could you say why?


Can you guys give me some advice against dwarfs? I've beaten them a couple of times, but there are two types of army I have problems beating, one the all infantry (ironbreaker, hammerer, longbeard, lords and thanes and a couple of warrior units) and the other a mega-shooty artillery (2 units of thunderers, one of quarrelers, 2 cannon, organ gun, grudge thrower)
I've tried strigoi with summon ghouls against the later, and I use a list with a 8 strong BK, zombies, 2 units of 3 fell bats and 2 units of 5 wolves to outmanouver but they get shot apart.

Wrote a big answer to this and then lost it, so i have to be short.
Against the gunline, you need more units, big and cheap, this means multiple unnits of DW, lots of ghouls, big units of zombies.
Refuse a flank and half his line wont have a shot.
Use the terrain to your advantage and send out the wolves, bats and ghouls at one part of his line, only one unit needs to get through, once his flank is breached, its curtains!

Good things to use are:

1) Thrall with GW and Flayed Haurberk in wolf form in 5 'man' unit of Dire wolves, aim for thunderers or crossbowmen line.
2) staff of damnation, this and any other bound items will help your magic get through, aim this at WM crew..
3) Zombies, BIG units, characters inside..
4) ION, this is what will win you the game, use this to top up the size of your Zombie uints and when near summon up new units right in front of his guns, danse or book them into CC..


So long as he dont use the Thorek/Anvil combo, the gunline can be defeated pain free.
If he does use the combo, HIT him!

Jerak
04-03-2007, 16:00
IMO, blood drinker is invaluble (for keeping your general alive, mainly). Blood Dragons (which i normally use ) also have full plate mail (4+ base save) as standard, and then you have the optional flayed hauberk or the strength of steel or other blood dragon traits

Personaly i would never take the blood drinker. I think the only decient magic weapon that Vc gets is The Sword of Kings and thats
only for wights.I just take a GW and then load up on bloodline powers, usualy red fury, master strike, heart pircing and a tailsmen of protection. But thats just me.

Jerak twice dammed lord of the Chaos Gods

Makarion
04-03-2007, 17:44
How about the sword that generates powerdice for wounds caused? Don't have my book with me right now, but that was 40-45 points I believe, and sounded at least interesting.

jp22102000
04-03-2007, 19:07
has anyone ever used the Lahmia special character (Neferatta) i have been thinking of making a lahmia army with lots of knights and was wondering if the extra points cost for her is worth it.

dominic_carrillo
04-03-2007, 23:11
Zombie walls are good
for trapping expensive foes
Add a Vamp Lord too.

therat
05-03-2007, 03:01
Zombie walls are good
for trapping expensive foes
Add a Vamp Lord too.

It's like a poem...


Anyway, I've heard tales of the Sword of Unholy Power being amazing. I've never actually used it, though. The dice generated sounds like it would be really helpful, but is it good in practice?

DirtJumper
05-03-2007, 19:24
It's like a poem...

It's a Haiku, actually. :D

Kahadras
05-03-2007, 23:24
I've been thinking of a VC army recently. I was thinking of going for the Count, 2 Necromancers, Wight Lord setup.

My Count is going to be from the Carstein bloodline. I wanted him to be a bit of an all rounder. Able to cast magic, support the rest of the army and fight in hand to hand combat. I took the basic Count and added an extra level for him to be more effective in the magic phase. I chose the bloodline powers Walking death (to help out in close combat) and Aura of Dark Majesty (to help support the rest of my army). I purchased Ring of the Night and a barded Nightmare to give him a bit of survivability when he reaches combat. I reasoned that his basic statline was scary enough in hth without needing any magic weapons. I'm going to place him with my Black knights in order to give him some good maneuverability/protection

My 2 Necromancers are both going to be level 2 (even more power dice). Both will carry a dispel magic scroll to aid in my magical defence. One will also carry the Book of Arkhan in order to bring more pressure to bear in the magic phase. Both have a nice big unit of skeletons to hide in.

My last character will probably be a Wight Lord. I tend to feel these guys get overlooked a bit but they're quite cheap which is always a bonus. I've kitted mine out with heavy armour, enchanted shield and Sword of Kings. IMO this is a pretty good build. He weights in a just under a hundred points, has a pretty good armour save and has an improved killing blow which could be pretty useful if he is involved in any challenges. Again, like the Necromancer, he will get a nice big unit of Skeletons to back him up.

So what do people think? Balanced? Flawed?

Kahadras

EvC
05-03-2007, 23:48
Sounds very similar to my set-up, you may want to also make the Wight Lord a Battle Standard Bearer :)

Kahadras
06-03-2007, 10:54
Another important question. One that has split VC players for years. One that has led to more heated debates than I care to remember.

Skeletons or Zombies?

Kahadras

Deathknight
06-03-2007, 12:47
Can you guys give me some advice against dwarfs? I've beaten them a couple of times, but there are two types of army I have problems beating, one the all infantry (ironbreaker, hammerer, longbeard, lords and thanes and a couple of warrior units) and the other a mega-shooty artillery (2 units of thunderers, one of quarrelers, 2 cannon, organ gun, grudge thrower)
I've tried strigoi with summon ghouls against the later, and I use a list with a 8 strong BK, zombies, 2 units of 3 fell bats and 2 units of 5 wolves to outmanouver but they get shot apart.

FatOlaf has the jist of most of it. One other thing you can do is if you play Necrach is give him Master of DA for the 6" range bonus. Keep him right behind a big unit till he can get in range and then start raising units behind his lines. You can cast 24".

Or just go for the zombie horde. Maste necromancer/Necrach w/ 3 necros and just swamp him with undead. He won't be able to kill them fast enough!!!:evilgrin:

FatOlaf
06-03-2007, 12:53
My last character will probably be a Wight Lord. I tend to feel these guys get overlooked a bit but they're quite cheap which is always a bonus. I've kitted mine out with heavy armour, enchanted shield and Sword of Kings. IMO this is a pretty good build. He weights in a just under a hundred points, has a pretty good armour save and has an improved killing blow which could be pretty useful if he is involved in any challenges.
So what do people think? Balanced? Flawed?

Kahadras

Or else Sword of Kings and Gem of blood makes him even scarier in CC


Another important question. One that has split VC players for years. One that has led to more heated debates than I care to remember.

Skeletons or Zombies?

Both but only pay for your Zombies, Skeles should be raised if you are going to have them at all....so actually I would say 99.9% of the time, stick with our shuffling friends..Zombies!

Deathknight
06-03-2007, 12:55
Another important question. One that has split VC players for years. One that has led to more heated debates than I care to remember.

Skeletons or Zombies?

Kahadras

Check out this article. Best read on that debate I've seen.

http://z14.invisionfree.com/carpenoctem/index.php?showtopic=1686

EvC
06-03-2007, 13:00
Both but only pay for your Zombies, Skeles should be raised if you are going to have them at all....so actually I would say 99.9% of the time, stick with our shuffling friends..Zombies!

What? I thought it was always the other way round, pay for the superior skeletons and only use zombies as extras...

FatOlaf
06-03-2007, 13:03
What? I thought it was always the other way round, pay for the superior skeletons and only use zombies as extras...


That's what I meant, I was talking my way into a decision, I stopped taking Skels a while back, I pay for a couple of base units of Zombies and then ION them to greatness. But what I sort of meant is that If you are going to take Skels then pay for at least some as ION them is risky.

sralialo
07-03-2007, 12:38
Skellies skellies skellies! :)

I usually use two blocks of skellies with light armour, and a small unit of zombies. The zombies are just to have a small bodyguard for a necromancer, while the skellies ee the action. IMO, it's much easier to win combats when my skellies have a decent armour save and strike first when they charge...

Lardidar
07-03-2007, 14:30
Hiya all,

Me and 3 friends are going to a team tournament at the end of this year and we have all decided to do a new army to play there.

I have never done an undead army and have decided to go with VC, the lists we have to take are 1500pts.

I was hoping that I could get some VC players opinions on the list I am planning to run.

Characters
Necromancer - General, lvl 2, staff of damnation
Necromaner - Lvl 2, book of arkhan
Wight lord - Barded steed, shield, sword of kings, gem of blood

Core
40 Zombies
40 Zombies
40 Zombies
6 Dire wolves
9 Ghouls

Special
5 Black knights - Full command, banner of barrows, barding

Total points - 1500pts

What do you think?

I like the idea of raising skellis so I decided to put my points into the cheaper zombies.

I at first thought of a thrall but found the wight to be an interesting character at a much lower points cost, do you think I should try and fit in a banshee and if so what should I drop?

Thanks in advance for any info you can give.

FatOlaf
08-03-2007, 12:04
What do you think?

I like the idea of raising skellis so I decided to put my points into the cheaper zombies.

I at first thought of a thrall but found the wight to be an interesting character at a much lower points cost, do you think I should try and fit in a banshee and if so what should I drop?

Thanks in advance for any info you can give.


It's not bad for a 1500 list, You must take a Banshee, drop one wolf and some zombies from one of the units to get her.
Also drop a few zombies from each unit to get a standard and musician in each unit, max their CR potential. You can always raise more.
And as for the raising issue, since you have so many zombies why stop there? You can raise more zombies than skellies so why not just keep adding to your units you have, uber tarpits!

Kahadras
08-03-2007, 20:10
Personaly I think at the end of the day it comes down to personal taste. The higher cost of the Skeletons is off set by the fact that they have the potential to do more damage/are more survivable.

I personaly prefer skeletons due to the fact I prefer the anchient look to the VC. Skeletons and Wights provide this aspect of the Undead (Zombies and Ghouls providing a more alive/recently dead theme).

Kahadras

Lardidar
08-03-2007, 20:43
Cheers for that Fatolaf, I thought the banshee may be a must have.

Here is the revised list. Changes in red brackets.

Characters
Necromancer - General, lvl 2, staff of damnation
Necromaner - Lvl 2, book of arkhan
Wight lord - Barded steed, shield, sword of kings, gem of blood

Core
40 Zombies - command (+ command) 8W 5 ranks
35 Zombies - command (-5 zombies, + command) 7W 5 ranks
30 Zombies - command (-10 zombies, + command) 6W 5 ranks
6 Dire wolves
9 Ghouls

Special
5 Black knights - Full command, banner of barrows, barding

Rare
Banshee (new)

Total - 1500pts

I do prefer zombies but I think ill buy a box of skellies just incase I ever feel like summoning them.

Is the wight a decent choice?, what about his items ... I have seen the combo pretty often so I assumed it was ok but is the gem of blood worth taking?, it seems to me you may end up killing your own guy, but that 2+ bounce back could be well worth having.

I am looking forward to playing an army and not having to worry about leadership, too many times I have fled at crucial points when I should have stayed put .... But no more, Mwu ha ha!

VladtheLad
09-03-2007, 11:19
Solid magic face. VC have perhaps the best Lore out there. Invocation of Nehek has somany uses. One of the most dirty ones is summoning a new zombie unit in front of a big enemy unit that's about to charge you on the next turn. Remeber to angle the zombies so they won't overun on you and so they won't have line of sight after they slay the zombies.

I have made Grail Knights loose turns and turns this way...

ObiWan
09-03-2007, 20:50
Hi Lardidar, your wight combo is one often used, with very good results. You are correct about the leadership, but be mindful that you must win combats to avoid losing your soldiers to the dust, so you'll want to make a combined charge as often as you can.

dominic_carrillo
09-03-2007, 21:44
smaller units of grave gaurd. fat units of skeletons and zombies to hold up the enemy.

eleveninches
10-03-2007, 08:04
if you really are desperate to have a necro as your general, give him the cloak of mist and shadows

Jimjim
18-03-2007, 12:35
Here's the VC army I've been using for quite a while, works quite well against non-gunline armies (gunlines being the most negative trend I've seen in WHFB)

Necrarch Count - Lv. 2, Noble Blood, Dark Acolyte, Forbidden Lore = 325 pts.

Necromancer - Lv. 2, Book of Arkhan, DS = 150 pts.

Necromancer - Lv.2, Power Familiar = 150 pts.

Wight Lord - HA, Enchanted Shield, Sword of the Kings, Barded Nightmare = 111pts.

24 Skeletons - Hw, LA, Shield, Full command = 265 pts.

24 Skeletons - Hw, LA, Shield, Full command = 265 pts.

30 Zombies - Hw, Standard, Musician = 195 pts.

25 Zombies - Hw, Standard, Musician = 165 pts.

9 Black Knights - Hw, Lance, HA, Shields, Full command, Barding, Banner of the Barrows = 310 pts.

7 Ghouls - Ghast = 55 pts.

=2002 pts. 11 Casting Dice, 7 Dispel dice + 1 Scroll. 123 models.

ice5nake
19-04-2007, 15:28
For a more aggressive build ditch Dark Acolyte and Forbidden Lore on your Count and replace it with the Sword of Unholy Power and the Talisman of Protection. The key there is send your count into combat against a weak unit and get tons of Power Dice.

Also, when playing more missile oriented armies a few fell bats to guard the front of your black knights is always nice.

As I am sure you know, a black knight unit can run up the entire flank of the enemy.

Also, especially if you fight dwarfs a lot, try replacing the Wight Lord with a Necromancer to overcome problems being dispelled too much.

greymeister
19-04-2007, 17:28
For a more aggressive build ditch Dark Acolyte and Forbidden Lore on your Count and replace it with the Sword of Unholy Power and the Talisman of Protection. The key there is send your count into combat against a weak unit and get tons of Power Dice.

That won't really help a count much because the Necrarch without any bloodline abilities is still just a level 2 wizard with only 2 spells they can cast, so yeah you could theoretically get a ton of spell dice, but now that casting pools are wizard-specific, no one else will benefit. If it was a Lord it might be an interesting tactic once you make him a level 4 wizard.




Also, especially if you fight dwarfs a lot, try replacing the Wight Lord with a Necromancer to overcome problems being dispelled too much.

Not sure if that's the correct route there. In my opinion, the best way to beat dwarfs would be to take a VC army that relies as little as possible on magic. Use small fast units and leave the zombies at home. The best magic defense will always trump the best magic offense in the current WHFB ruleset.


EDIT: Also, on the zombie units in the posted lists...why ever go more than 5 wide? I mean, first you are making it easier for people to get more attacks on you (= more dead zombies after combat resolution) and second you won't get any bonuses towards your combat resolution because zombies don't kill anything! In fact, other than maybe knights, dire wolves or grave guard, why would you ever go any wider than the minimum to get rank bonuses?

ice5nake
24-04-2007, 18:28
That won't really help a count much because the Necrarch without any bloodline abilities is still just a level 2 wizard with only 2 spells they can cast, so yeah you could theoretically get a ton of spell dice, but now that casting pools are wizard-specific, no one else will benefit. If it was a Lord it might be an interesting tactic once you make him a level 4 wizard.

That's what I meant. I take my Necrach Count as a level 2 wizard with Necrarch Noble Blood, making him level 3. I as well take the SoUP and the ToP. As well, the dice gained from the SoUP are added to the "player's" pool so they are not just for the Count


Not sure if that's the correct route there. In my opinion, the best way to beat dwarfs would be to take a VC army that relies as little as possible on magic. Use small fast units and leave the zombies at home. The best magic defense will always trump the best magic offense in the current WHFB ruleset.

A Count with the SoUP, three Necromancers, and two bound spell items should do the trick. Beside building an army for a specific player IMO is kind of cheesy. So I guess I should have said, if you're going for a magic heavy VC army and want to be able to not get owned by a dispel heavy army you should to go all out.




EDIT: Also, on the zombie units in the posted lists...why ever go more than 5 wide? I mean, first you are making it easier for people to get more attacks on you (= more dead zombies after combat resolution) and second you won't get any bonuses towards your combat resolution because zombies don't kill anything! In fact, other than maybe knights, dire wolves or grave guard, why would you ever go any wider than the minimum to get rank bonuses?

Not sure if this is what you mean but RAW state that you can kill more models than those that appear in the front rank. See "Excess Casualties" in the rulebook.

Toby
26-04-2007, 09:52
Never take a great necromancer in 2000 points game you realy need the fighting power of a good vampire to lead your troops as your general needs to be in the centre of your line (so they can march) and in the new rules you can shoot any character so they are too vulnerable outside your unit and you dont want them in combat.

greymeister
26-04-2007, 17:16
Not sure if this is what you mean but RAW state that you can kill more models than those that appear in the front rank. See "Excess Casualties" in the rulebook.

I realize that, but why ever expose more frontage than is the bare minimum with zombies?

ice5nake
26-04-2007, 19:26
I realize that, but why ever expose more frontage than is the bare minimum with zombies?

More counter attacks, if you ever get them. Zombies can be ok with the Staff of Damnation.

As well, they are always going to go last, unless they have HV, so the only point in charging with them is to keep your enemy from getting an overrun.
This makes reforming a valuable strategy for your zombies.

Reform with your zombies, so that if they want to charge you your enemy will have to expose his flank. Having a formation that is less deep is also nice for deployment because you can place the zombies in front of another unit and use them as a screen, then veer off with a VDM spell. Also you can weight one side of the battlefield this way, which can be fun and something that might throw your opponent for a loop.

laughingman
26-04-2007, 22:22
More counter attacks, if you ever get them. Zombies can be ok with the Staff of Damnation.

As well, they are always going to go last, unless they have HV, so the only point in charging with them is to keep your enemy from getting an overrun.
This makes reforming a valuable strategy for your zombies.

Reform with your zombies, so that if they want to charge you your enemy will have to expose his flank. Having a formation that is less deep is also nice for deployment because you can place the zombies in front of another unit and use them as a screen, then veer off with a VDM spell. Also you can weight one side of the battlefield this way, which can be fun and something that might throw your opponent for a loop.

let me put it this way, should any str 3 t3 no save unit ever go more than its minimum rank bonus, no. It is not suppose to kill anything, its there to get 3 ranks st, outnumber.

Thats it, so more counter attacks is silly, why waist the potential rank bonus you will lose later because you are 7 wide?[dice0]

FatOlaf
27-04-2007, 12:25
Is the wight a decent choice?, what about his items ... I have seen the combo pretty often so I assumed it was ok but is the gem of blood worth taking?, it seems to me you may end up killing your own guy, but that 2+ bounce back could be well worth having.


It is a great combo, charge him into the opposition general unit and challenge, he makes such
a good character killer for so little points, so keep the Sword and the Gem , it can work wonders!

ice5nake
27-04-2007, 18:50
let me put it this way, should any str 3 t3 no save unit ever go more than its minimum rank bonus, no. It is not suppose to kill anything, its there to get 3 ranks st, outnumber.

Thats it, so more counter attacks is silly, why waist the potential rank bonus you will lose later because you are 7 wide?

Try using "IMO" and not calling other people's ideas silly. You come across very arrogantly..

Krankenstein
28-04-2007, 10:36
You come across very arrogantly..



... In your oppinion...


;)

ultimo
16-09-2007, 18:18
Hey guys, i'm new to Warhammer Fantasy and i'm intrigued by the idea of having an army full of zombies <3 Although i'm not sure which a better core choice would be, zombies or skeletons.

Anyways, since i'm still reading over the codex (Don't have the rulebook yet, hoping to get it soon), can you guys give me recommendations? Like what lord/vampire, what bloodline would be good for this army, etc.

Any help is appreciated, thank you.

EvC
16-09-2007, 18:40
Necrarch Summon Horde. Problem is it isn't actually any fun. See my sig for a forum for VC players...

ultimo
16-09-2007, 18:58
Not fun? :( How so? How does it play?

fearchanges
17-09-2007, 16:14
You summon al lot of zombies with a load off necromancers and a Necro vampire count as General and make sure they hit the enemy in the flanks and rear to negate their reank bonus.

I saw lately a nice Necro list, which was nice to play against. Donīt know exactly how it was but it was something like this.

Necrach Vampire Count with Black periapt
2 Necromancers with Staff and Book
Wraith with Cursed book

1 unit skeletons with FC
1 unit zombies with FC
2 units Dire wolves
2 units Grave guards with FC
1 big unit Fell Bats
2 Banshees

Though as nails those grave guards in the center together with the Vampire and Thrall. The bats and dire wolves rolled up my hole artillery.
I did manage to get draw out of it with my Empire;)

Ktotwf
04-10-2007, 00:59
Guys, is it feasible to have a Vampire Lord in a 2250 pt game?

I would REALLY like to have a Lord, but, I have seen others say that they don't fit in a game less than 3000 pts.

Keller
04-10-2007, 02:59
Guys, is it feasible to have a Vampire Lord in a 2250 pt game?

I would REALLY like to have a Lord, but, I have seen others say that they don't fit in a game less than 3000 pts.

Sure, I used to run a Vamp Lord all of the time. He's not that much more than a Count, especially when you consider the points saved by not having a 4th char. I used to use them mainly due to not really needing a 4th character in my army, and I wanted the extra magic boost. The extra combat prowess was just icing on the cake.

Sure, you could take a necro instead, but I never wanted to for some reason.... Especially when playing themed battles.

EvC
04-10-2007, 09:58
Vampire Lords are a great choice, even in 2000 point games. You may miss the fourth character, but these days every army has a Lord choice that is a better fighter than a Vampire Count, and I hate having to turn down challenges, so Lords work well. The only real problem is that it pigeon-holes the rest of your characters, i.e. you pretty much have to take a Necromancer with Book of Arkhan and Dispel Scroll, and then either another Necromancer or a Wight Lord/ fighting Thrall with Cursed Book/ Sword of Kings.

javaguru
01-12-2007, 02:00
You can get by with a vampire lord and fighting characters easily if you play black knight and dire wolf heavy.

Deus Mechanicus
11-02-2008, 01:22
How are the new zombies?

Kraal_Lord_Of_Blood
11-02-2008, 07:14
Considering what has been seen i'd say that corpse cart+zombies=fun :D
But i have not seen the new book so don't count on me..

Jack of Blades
11-02-2008, 07:53
Zombies are pretty much crap now. They can't overrun or pursue (you instead cause D6 S2 hits per rank of Zombies), have S2 and T2. They're no longer Braindead, but whatever. They're cheaper though, and still good tarpits when raised. You probably shouldn't buy any as they're very easy to raise.

Deus Mechanicus
11-02-2008, 12:55
Zombies are pretty much crap now. They can't overrun or pursue (you instead cause D6 S2 hits per rank of Zombies), have S2 and T2. They're no longer Braindead, but whatever. They're cheaper though, and still good tarpits when raised. You probably shouldn't buy any as they're very easy to raise.

Though that means they cost less and that you can squeze more zombies in right? How does it apply to small scale Border Patrol (It's 500pts in fantasy right?). Zombies, Corpse Cart and a necromancer or not?

Jack of Blades
11-02-2008, 13:18
Yeah, they cost less. They cost 1/3 less and the minimum unit size is 20.
I think you need a Vampire (new name for Thralls) to lead your army. Their combat ability combined with wizardry is pretty good :)

If you want Zombies, may I suggest Sceptre de Noirot and the Flayed Hauberk? will give you D3+9 Zombies per IoN with a 2+ save. Then you can take Infinite Hatred and Beguile to have him be good against both characters and units.

Zombies, Corpse Cart and a Vampire could be successful depending on the amount of Zombies you can swarm your enemy with and how many you can get off Vanhel's Danse Macabre off. I'd stick a Necromancer with Book of Arkhan in there in addition to the Corpse Cart, if you can. Don't worry about not having many Zombies, as they're very easy to raise.

Then again you should take my advice with some skepticism because I'm not very used to thinking about 500 point border patrols.

Stormsender
12-02-2008, 08:09
I am starting a VC army also have the Spearhead on preorder a box of zombies laying around and and also going to get a box of Blood Knights because I love the models. I am in serious need of sound addvice I have never played WFB and am taking the plunge becuase I have been waiting for the new VC Army book to surface.

The shop where I play the dwarf player is already goading me I think he just wants to beat me silly, and all of the other WFB players are smelling fresh meat. I am in need of some serious advice guys I will be watching this thread, please help?

Thanks for any advice

Nedar
13-02-2008, 05:17
You can do a lot with the new codex. Vampires are great fighters and decent casters. They can be upgraded in many different ways to fulfull different roles.

Blood Knights are harder than nails. They can tear up almost anything they hit, and can be healed if they lose guys, just like the rest of the undead army. This unit will run quite high on points if you want to give them shooty protection (a rather expensive banner, but almost mandatory for this expensive unit).

You'll also need a solid "Anvil" unit (something that can take charges and hold up for a round or two) so that you can hold down enemy units to slam into with your hard hitters (Blood Knights, Vargulf, Ghouls even).

In average game sizes of about 2250, the new GT value so most people will likely play games at this range now, you need three core choices. That is three units of either Skeletons, Zombies, or Ghouls. I'm not a fan of buying the new zombies, as you can raise insane amounts.

I like skeletons with spears at a small unit size that is raised with a casty vampire (Count Manfred is ******* nuts). Ghouls are very nice though, but lack the static combat res of skeletons (banner, magic banners now too).

Try to think of a theme for your vampires and build an army around it, it's the best way IMO, to build an army. If you want to just spank the snot out of your buddies, you can just go for the craziest combos. Dwarf players will hurt your magic phase more than most, and the VC have a very powerfull magic phase in the new book.

Vargulfs are insanely powerful. I'm probably going to run two of them to hold my flanks in my 2250 list. They can tear up almost anything and cause terror at that...beware of fire though.

Grave Guard and Black Knights are important to have around to take care of extra hard enemies with their Killing Blow power (By far my favorite ability in the game...Die Tyrion, Popemobile clown, and all you other clowns). Black Knights can move as if Ethereal, a very usefull ability. Combine with a Vargulf to let them march, or the always march banner, and you got a solid Flanking unit with KB.

Lots of good stuff in this new book...oh ya.

Jack of Blades
13-02-2008, 05:44
Army book... ARMY BOOK! :'(
40k = codex.

Well, with that sorted, uh... what were you asking?

Gaftra
13-02-2008, 17:33
Im doing some necromancy on this thread here (:D) hope it's ok...

So talk new zombies with me, how do they work alone or comboed. Will small hordelike zombie patrol work?

couple things on the zombies,

in 2250 it may actually be worth buying them. there. i said it. the reason why is this, in 2250 you will be so strapped for points and building winning units you should go ahead an do it. heres my break down and logic:

ghouls and skeletons arent going to win combats against hard core troop units, most likely you will simply tie. with ws2 on you skels you cant count on them to beat much. ghouls might fare better but a lack of standard and save is really going to hurt you.

I know a popular idea is having a block of zombies/skels hold a unit until a character or wolves flank charge but this isnt really a great plan. fast cav like wolves wont remove ranks and chars wont either. Your opponent will wisely direct attacks against the zombies and wipe out five of them and not get hit back which will leave you in the hole for combat.

characters also wont win the game for you. it just doesnt work. running a crazy lord against a big static CR unit will just see you get spanked. I'm not say dont take big crazy characters, I sure am, rather take them in concert for making your army WIN and not simply because they have some cool combo power.

IMO you're going to have to count on GG and black knights to get the job done. Knights are affordable in 2250, I cant justify spending on KOBK, and grave guard are very effective in combat.

Now this brings me to why you DO buy zombies; buy 1 or two core choices of them frees up close to 160 points. Doesn't sound like much but believe me, when you're probably taking close to 1000 points in characters youll need every spare point. 160 points will get about 10 more GG and another knight or two which is a pretty big deal.

if you made it to the end of this post then i salute you!

Deus Mechanicus
13-02-2008, 19:31
couple things on the zombies,

in 2250 it may actually be worth buying them. there. i said it. the reason why is this, in 2250 you will be so strapped for points and building winning units you should go ahead an do it. heres my break down and logic:

ghouls and skeletons arent going to win combats against hard core troop units, most likely you will simply tie. with ws2 on you skels you cant count on them to beat much. ghouls might fare better but a lack of standard and save is really going to hurt you.

I know a popular idea is having a block of zombies/skels hold a unit until a character or wolves flank charge but this isnt really a great plan. fast cav like wolves wont remove ranks and chars wont either. Your opponent will wisely direct attacks against the zombies and wipe out five of them and not get hit back which will leave you in the hole for combat.

characters also wont win the game for you. it just doesnt work. running a crazy lord against a big static CR unit will just see you get spanked. I'm not say dont take big crazy characters, I sure am, rather take them in concert for making your army WIN and not simply because they have some cool combo power.

IMO you're going to have to count on GG and black knights to get the job done. Knights are affordable in 2250, I cant justify spending on KOBK, and grave guard are very effective in combat.

Now this brings me to why you DO buy zombies; buy 1 or two core choices of them frees up close to 160 points. Doesn't sound like much but believe me, when you're probably taking close to 1000 points in characters youll need every spare point. 160 points will get about 10 more GG and another knight or two which is a pretty big deal.

if you made it to the end of this post then i salute you!

Ah but im far from 2250 points :D. Since ive only been playing 40k before i'll start of light with a Combat Patrol Vampire Counts. Would you say that zombies makes a good bulk in 400 pts with a necromancer/vampire backing them up? lol this comes from a guy who hasnt seen the vc book or played fantasy before

Cragspyder
14-02-2008, 00:59
I know a popular idea is having a block of zombies/skels hold a unit until a character or wolves flank charge but this isnt really a great plan. fast cav like wolves wont remove ranks and chars wont either.

Just browsing, not really interested in VC at all, but I feel obligated to point out that Fast Cav, as has been said earlier in the thread, do indeed negate ranks if there is at least US 5 of them. Only skirmishers and units under US 5 never negate ranks no matter where they charge.

Also: BRAAAAAIIINNNNSSS!

Deus Mechanicus
14-02-2008, 01:33
Also: BRAAAAAIIINNNNSSS!

Dude, my thinking exactly

Gaftra
14-02-2008, 02:26
Ah but im far from 2250 points :D. Since ive only been playing 40k before i'll start of light with a Combat Patrol Vampire Counts. Would you say that zombies makes a good bulk in 400 pts with a necromancer/vampire backing them up? lol this comes from a guy who hasnt seen the vc book or played fantasy before

in a small 500 pointish force id just pick the models i like. youre not going to go wrong with the spearhead or just a bunch of zombies.

Lordmonkey
18-03-2008, 06:40
Also: BRAAAAAIIINNNNSSS!

I concur Mr. Spyder.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
18-03-2008, 12:59
fast cav like wolves wont remove ranks and chars wont either.

This is wrong. Fast Cavalry negate ranks. This is one of their main uses, and a relatively basic rule of the game...

oma
24-05-2009, 12:47
So what does people recon of a purely zombie horde then?

MasterSparks
24-05-2009, 17:13
Lacks bite. And once you're going up against the wrong kind of enemy (the hack-and-slashy ones) you will likely start loosing more zombies than you can keep going. Defeat will probably be inevitable.

Quite cool though. :p

kardar233
24-05-2009, 17:55
Yeah, it's funny, but not very effective. Also frustrating making all 300+ zombies that you'll need for the units and then raising on top.

Hey MasterFlash!

Frankly
25-05-2009, 12:07
So what does people recon of a purely zombie horde then?


Zombies will help you win games through board control and negating some of your opponent's options. But the combat phase(in general) is still key for big win's for VC.

MasterSparks
25-05-2009, 12:28
Hey MasterFlash!

Hi there, mind telling me your CN username so I can identify you? :D

Anyway, have anyone here found a good use for the Bat Swarms? I still haven't had a real chance to try them out yet but they are the only unit entry which I can't find a clear role for on paper.