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View Full Version : Marneus Calgar the chaos sell out...



nurglich
16-08-2005, 20:00
Bought the SM codex yesturday... a good codex imo. I was reading the fluff for Calgars gauntlets... there from a chaos champion :eek: Heresy if ever i heard/read it! I really can't let this one slide so ...(rant coming....
The Ultramarines are the supreme example of what a codex chapter should be, so why has the grand master of the whole chapter got a pair of gloves created for destroying what there fighting for? The relictors are on the run for taking Chaos artifact's to war but if it's Marneus Calgar it's different? :eyebrows: I'm in progress of painting a small ultramarines force, but now iv'e read that its screaming contradictions at me. Any ones thoughts or explanation for this obviously stupid fluff?

Brusilov
16-08-2005, 20:14
Correct me if I'm wrong but don't the Gauntlets of Ultramar date back from the glorious days when Robout Guilliman himself led the Ultramarine Legion, he is the one to recover it from the body of a Chaos champion, have it reconsecrate by the Cult Mechanicus and fitted to his armour.
And IIRC it is not a Chaos artefact per se, but a relic of the Dark Age of Technology which was used by a Chaos Champion, something very different from a daemon sword if you ask me...

malika
16-08-2005, 20:29
The Space Wolves also use a bunch of Chaos items such as some Axe, ship and other goodies...and that is not even mentioning the 13th company.

nurglich
16-08-2005, 20:31
Correct me if I'm wrong but don't the Gauntlets of Ultramar date back from the glorious days when Robout Guilliman himself led the Ultramarine Legion, he is the one to recover it from the body of a Chaos champion, have it reconsecrate by the Cult Mechanicus and fitted to his armour.
And IIRC it is not a Chaos artefact per se, but a relic of the Dark Age of Technology which was used by a Chaos Champion, something very different from a daemon sword if you ask me...

Yes guilliman captured it, but my point being that to lead by exampe would permit other SM's to capture chaos artifacts for personal use. Which as we know is by no means acceptable by most powers within the imperium. The fluff for the latest edition doesn't actually state whether or not the gauntlets are dark age tech or not, so my post going with what it states. :p i dunno it all seems slightly ironic imo (turning a blind eye so to speak).

Lady's Champion
16-08-2005, 20:34
I am of this opinion too Nurglich, I've always wondered about this one (nice location bytheway, reminds me of mine)

Tom
16-08-2005, 20:35
Frankly, I imagine them just being touched by a Primarch would shift them a good way into the 'pure and noble' zone.

Let alone used for delivering the Emperor's Righteous Smashage.

nurglich
16-08-2005, 20:58
I am of this opinion too Nurglich, I've always wondered about this one (nice location bytheway, reminds me of mine)

:eek: Could we be from the same dank pit??????

I am glad someoe's on my side with this as it seems WRONG!!! no matter how much people want to spruce this 'situation' up its still wrong imo. Don't get me mixed up with the gamer who search's with a fine comb through fluff, im not, the example shown is just Hypocritical thats all

malika
16-08-2005, 21:11
Face it the Imperium is a very hypocritical place to be...

Xander-K
16-08-2005, 21:25
meh its no big deal really, they have C'tan phase swords for assassins, as said Space Wolves have Axe of Morkai, Daemonhunters have Daemonhosts, i'm sure there are more chapters who have daemon stuff, but why not nick your enemies weapons when they are so clearly better than your own weapons :)

I guess thats the thinking of the Ultramarines guy, also he can wear them as trophies and its like a challenge to all the chaos guys who appose him, like look I stole your uber weapons, come take them back.

Its not like the weapon itself is a threat to the imperium, it is only an ickle bit chaos, just enough to give it some kicking power, its not like the Soul Edge weapon from Soul Blade or anything that possess' and turns you into a psycho.

Minister
16-08-2005, 21:34
The diference is that the items the Relictors use are infused by Chaos, daemon weapons and other manipulators of the dark powers. However, the Gauntlets, and certain other artefacts (including a certain axe), are trophies taken by the Marines and purified of the taint of chaos, leaving only the redeemed human technology once shrouded. Where here is the problem?

nurglich
16-08-2005, 21:39
Its not like the weapon itself is a threat to the imperium, it is only an ickle bit chaos, just enough to give it some kicking power, its not like the Soul Edge weapon from Soul Blade or anything that possess' and turns you into a psycho.

As far as they know ;) I don't think its the right way for the Ultramarines to act thats all, that wasn't the only thing tho to turn my attention. The 'codex' all chapters use (yea right) doesn't say anything about tyrannic war vets.. another deviancecy i'm afraid :rolleyes:
On a sub note isn't that what the Death watch/Alien Hunters are for?

Asher
16-08-2005, 22:15
The diference is that the items the Relictors use are infused by Chaos, daemon weapons and other manipulators of the dark powers. However, the Gauntlets, and certain other artefacts (including a certain axe), are trophies taken by the Marines and purified of the taint of chaos, leaving only the redeemed human technology once shrouded. Where here is the problem?

If I remember corectly, the Axe of Morkai was not an Artefact but is in one passage indeed described as a deamon weapon of some sort.
Sadly I don't recall neither where I found it (most likely in the WD featuring Grimnar prior to the Eye of Terror campagn) nor the exact wording but it went along the lines that: "...the Axe was sancified to Morkai but the spirit of the deamon inside it is still pulsing".

Tom
16-08-2005, 22:33
The 'codex' all chapters use (yea right) doesn't say anything about tyrannic war vets.. another deviancecy i'm afraid :rolleyes:

Actually, it's impossible for the Ultramarines to deviate from the Codex. It's by no means a static tome, they can and do add stuff to it. It's less the Codex dictates the Ultramarines, more the Ultramarines dictate the Codex.

SAMAS
16-08-2005, 22:43
If I remember corectly, the Axe of Morkai was not an Artefact but is in one passage indeed described as a deamon weapon of some sort.
Sadly I don't recall neither where I found it (most likely in the WD featuring Grimnar prior to the Eye of Terror campagn) nor the exact wording but it went along the lines that: "...the Axe was sancified to Morkai but the spirit of the deamon inside it is still pulsing".

The Axe of Morkai is a special case. As said before, it is/was a Daemon weapon, and I've heard that there's a good chance that it was Angron's Daemon weapon, lost in the 1st Armageddon War.

The Gauntlets of Ultramar, on the other hand, were not Daemon weapons. Gulliman killed the dude, said, "*****, these might come in handly! Besides, they're too valuable to just destroy(apparently, they couldn't anyway), and so had them ritually reconsecrated for the service of the Emperor. It's not like he ripped them off and slipped them on, or anything.

Master Fulgrim
16-08-2005, 23:25
Jep, in fact they were only recovered from a former imperial Chaosmaine into imperial services. Once they were made for imperials, than the Chaosboys glued some spikes on it and the Ultramarines flexed them down when they reconquered them. It has nothing to do with demonweapons.

Fulgrim

malika
16-08-2005, 23:32
As far as they know ;) I don't think its the right way for the Ultramarines to act thats all, that wasn't the only thing tho to turn my attention. The 'codex' all chapters use (yea right) doesn't say anything about tyrannic war vets.. another deviancecy i'm afraid :rolleyes:
On a sub note isn't that what the Death watch/Alien Hunters are for?

When Guilliman wrote the Codex Astartes there were no such things as Tyranids, hence there werent any dogmas/rules on how to deal with these aliens, the Codex was probably updated in that perspective. I think the Codex has been updated in the last 10 thousand years with small alterations and updates since things to sort of change in such a long amount of time.

starlight
16-08-2005, 23:53
There was a bit of background about an Ultramarine (I think) having an epiphany about the nature of the Codex, that it was a tool from which Marines could learn and grow, not chains to bind them.

When Black Roses Bloom
17-08-2005, 05:42
MUAHAHAHAHA THE TAINT OF CHAOS IS EVERYWHERE!!!!! \m/

devolutionary
17-08-2005, 05:49
Yeesh complaining about some little gauntlets? Might as well say that if a Chaos Marine used an Imperial Chainsword, then he'd be weakening Chaos with Imperial taint. Silly, yes, but valid, since they are both spiritual powers opposed to each other.

Psiweapon
17-08-2005, 12:09
Damn the imperium and their tight-arsed-ness. If you can't trust even your own big guys why not kill them right from the start?

Briareos
17-08-2005, 12:12
Chaos is in the eye of the beholder...

Shas'o'Fior
17-08-2005, 13:12
well, would the normal people of the imperium believe that the ultramarines are corrupted? that means eveyones corrupted...say goodbye to the relatively stable condition of the imperium

Briareos
17-08-2005, 13:16
I doubt the Ultramarines are common knowledge amongst the population of the Imperium outside of the Eastern fringes, or even the Ultramar system.

Gregorus
17-08-2005, 13:28
The 'codex' all chapters use (yea right) doesn't say anything about tyrannic war vets.. another deviancecy i'm afraid :rolleyes: if you treat those just like ordinary veteran squads using their 'nades in a constructive way, then there will be no deviancy, you see, just another veteran squad

nurglich
17-08-2005, 16:31
I think i'm being misunderstood here a tad... i'm not complaining as such, just pointing out a few things that other chapters are condemned for thats all. If we really want to get into the technic's of right or wrong 'codex' guidelines what about....
Blood Angels? I know they are under constant investigation by various inquisitors but they are obviously a flawed gene seed.
Space Wolfs willingly mutate there appearence to look more 'bestial' with fangs and manes and the like.
Imo it just seems that because there popular chapters they get a 'blind eye' to there obvious flaws, which lets face it a mere 'mortal' human would be incinerated for. I am by no means a 'whiney' gamer, i love the 40k and fantasy universe's with a passion but i just thought it needed to be adressed some what. Sorry if i came across as a GW basher.:-)

skyfurnace
17-08-2005, 19:24
Bought the SM codex yesturday... a good codex imo. I was reading the fluff for Calgars gauntlets... there from a chaos champion :eek: Heresy if ever i heard/read it! I really can't let this one slide so ...(rant coming....
The Ultramarines are the supreme example of what a codex chapter should be, so why has the grand master of the whole chapter got a pair of gloves created for destroying what there fighting for? The relictors are on the run for taking Chaos artifact's to war but if it's Marneus Calgar it's different? :eyebrows: I'm in progress of painting a small ultramarines force, but now iv'e read that its screaming contradictions at me. Any ones thoughts or explanation for this obviously stupid fluff?

I don't think that it's stupid at all. I think that the Gauntlets of Ultramar are no different than the bits and pieces of Tyranids' carapaces that adorn some veterans' armour; trophies.

The Gauntlets of Ultramar represent some sort of stunning victory of the Ultramarines over Chaos, and while the Techmarines and Tech Priests of the chapter have not been able to ascertain their origin or their exact working, you can bet that they have been purified and annointed in the name of the Emperor.

The 13th Company, as another example, makes use of power armor and what have you that they are able to salvage from battle. As long as proper rites are performed to re-sanctify lost kit, it should most certainly be used by the forces of the Emperor if it can be. It'd be a sore waste to throw it all into a forge and destroy it, don't you think?

All the best,

Skyfurnace

Master Fulgrim
17-08-2005, 19:37
But they are only archäotech, wich was in the wrong hands for certain time. If you look into the rules, than you will see that they basicaly are mastercrafted powerfists with attached bolters. So they are not as spectacular Grimnars axe, who was a demonweapon before.

Fulgrim

skyfurnace
17-08-2005, 19:37
Death Watch are a militant chamber of the Inquisition. Yes, they're Space Marines, but they're more specialized for the sort of work that the Ordos Xenos is involved in. The Ultramarines, as a chapter, pretty much singlehandedly defeated a Hive Fleet and lost an entire company of veterans in the process. The Ordo Xenos doesn't have a whole lot of jurisdiction to tell a Space Marines chapter that they can't take trophies from a dead Harrigan or Carnifex, nor would they probably care too much that certain squads of the Ultramarines adorn their power armour with images of Tyranids. It's okay to respect your enemy, even if you hate him. It's necessary, in fact. Especially with an enemy as formidable as the Tyranids.

As for the Gauntlets, they're one of the only things left over to the Ultramarines from their founder. The gauntlets represent what the Ultramarines are about in a sense: "There is nothing that our enemies can possess that we cannot relieve them of and, hence, use against them with divine ferocity."

And, as an aside, if you've read the Eisenhorn Trilogy, you know that even a respected Inquisitor of the Ordo Xenos isn't above using alien technology if it can defeat the "Arch Nemesis" in the longrun.

All the best,

Skyfurnace

skyfurnace
17-08-2005, 19:52
I think i'm being misunderstood here a tad... i'm not complaining as such, just pointing out a few things that other chapters are condemned for thats all. If we really want to get into the technic's of right or wrong 'codex' guidelines what about....
Blood Angels? I know they are under constant investigation by various inquisitors but they are obviously a flawed gene seed.
Space Wolfs willingly mutate there appearence to look more 'bestial' with fangs and manes and the like.
Imo it just seems that because there popular chapters they get a 'blind eye' to there obvious flaws, which lets face it a mere 'mortal' human would be incinerated for. I am by no means a 'whiney' gamer, i love the 40k and fantasy universe's with a passion but i just thought it needed to be adressed some what. Sorry if i came across as a GW basher.:-)

Remember, too that for the most part - meaning, from everything that I've read of the "fluff" - Space Marines are independent armies that serve the Emperor's Will. The Inquisition are, for all intents and purposes - at least to the best of my understanding- the "church" of the Empire of Man. Space Marines are superhumans that comprise component armies of beings that are genetically descended from the Emperor himself. In effect, someone like Guilliman or, for that matter, Calgar as well, are "princes" of the Empire. Rank has its priveledges and its indulgences regardless of how powerful the church's influence might be.

They're not just mortal human, and by a lot of pomp and divine right, they're somewhat above - SOMEWHAT - the reach of the majority of the Inquisition that, to be completely honest, has a lot on its plate monitoring the vast, unwashed trillions that make up the Empire.

I don't think it's so much that the Inquisition turns a blind eye to things that the Space Marines do... I just don't think that there's a whole lot that they can do about the reservations that they do have regarding a few of the chapters.

That's just my take on it, though.

All the best,

Skyfurnace

Talos402000
17-08-2005, 22:44
Remember, too that for the most part - meaning, from everything that I've read of the "fluff" - Space Marines are independent armies that serve the Emperor's Will. The Inquisition are, for all intents and purposes - at least to the best of my understanding- the "church" of the Empire of Man.

The "church" of the Imperium of Man is the Adeptus Ministorum which has its own Witchfinders. The Inquisition was created as a watch-dog organization to make sure an insurgency on the scale of the Heresy never happened again. The Inquisition has declared certain chapters (Soul Drinkers, Relictors) excommunicate before and will probably do so again, which means exterminatus. So yes, they do have authority over marine chapters. Marines are given a certain lee way, but once declard Heretic Tratoris its open season on them from everybody from the Imperial Guard, to the Imperial Navy, and last but not least OTHER space marine chapters. Remember when the Grey Knights annihilated the Flame Falcons at the behest of the Inquisition? They did so because the Flame Falcons genetic mutancy became too much to tolerate. Deviancy is dangerous in the Imperium no matter WHO you are.

Talos402000
17-08-2005, 22:52
On a further note there is a reason the Imperium limits space marine chapters to just a thousand men (basicly a reinfored battalion), namely because after the Heresy they are NOT fully trusted. And no matter how tough you are you have only two choices when confronted by the wrath of the Inquistion: Run for your life or face destruction. There is not one chapter that has successfully made a stand and defied the Inquisition. They alwayse either turn pirate or turn to chaos and hide in the Eye.

Decius
18-08-2005, 08:15
Also take into account that an Inquisitor's power and authority is based partially on renown. A Joe Blow Inquisitor couldn't just declare the Ultramarines Excomunicate Tratoris. Even if he tried, and the marines killed him, they'd probably get away with it. You would need serious proof or be one of the highest Inquisitors to do something like that. It's because the Ultramarines are a first founding chapter, Roboute helped rebuild the Imperium after the Heresy, half of the chapters out there use Ultramarine geen-seed, they have their own mini-empire, and on and on. Simply put, they are THE marine chapter. To call THEM heretics would be like saying the pope is actually a girl.

If those gauntlets were okay for Roboute then no one would question it further. Besides, it's been several thousand years without incident. Either they are pure or it's a sissy daemon.