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Corax
05-07-2007, 08:43
I played against Eldar using the new codex and got absolutely killed by them, particularly the rangers and pathfinders. I'm not complaining or saying anything silly like that they are cheese, I just didn't realise how nasty they are when they start putting out AP1 shots left, right, and center. Obviously, I will have to make them a target priority next time I play against them. To help me do this, I have a couple of questions for your consideration:

Have you found the rangers and pathfinders to be rather nasty?

What is the best way for killing them when they are in hard cover?

Bloodknight
05-07-2007, 08:46
1. Yeah, I play Death Guard and pathfinders are their natural enemy (ignoring armour 1/3 of the time and wounding on 4)

2. Flamers and close combat. Normal shooting won´t scratch them.

Tarquinn
05-07-2007, 08:53
Flamers kill rangers dead.

Scout Sentinels with heavy flamers and Hellhounds are particularly nasty.

ehlijen
05-07-2007, 09:06
Sisters tanks with blessed ammunition. (Do GK's get something similar?)

Enderel
05-07-2007, 09:25
Hellhounds are extremely nasty against them. Getting any sort of close combat troop into them should spell their doom.

They cannot move and shoot so avoid lines of fire. They will be set up in the hardest cover the Eldar player can find.

Remember it's only on 6's for rangers and 5,6's for pathfinders so unless they are really lucky they won't have that many AP1 shots... Unless they are heavily alatoic(SP?) themed.

sebster
05-07-2007, 10:29
Remember it's only on 6's for rangers and 5,6's for pathfinders so unless they are really lucky they won't have that many AP1 shots... Unless they are heavily alatoic(SP?) themed.

True, but they’re hitting with most every shot, so that means pathfinders will be getting a kill for roughly every 3 men. 10 of them stand a reasonable chance of killing a carnifex in one turn.

On the other hand they’re not cheap to field so taking them out of the game can be decisive. To be really safe against return fire they have to deploy in cover, so you can generally predict where they’re going to deploy and keep your high toughness, high armour units well away from them. They’re one shot models, so they’re pretty useless at killing sufficient numbers of low cost troops like guardsmen, so you can pretty safely march your crap troops directly at them. Or you can assault them with some fast moving troops, avoiding LOS until its too late.

lobachevskii
05-07-2007, 10:35
True, but they’re hitting with most every shot, so that means pathfinders will be getting a kill for roughly every 3 men. 10 of them stand a reasonable chance of killing a carnifex in one turn.


Please remember that these weapons are not rending; they still have to wound. As such they would be "getting a kill" for roughly every six men, not considering the possibility of an armour save being failed or Doom being used.

MrBigMr
05-07-2007, 10:37
Sisters tanks with blessed ammunition. (Do GK's get something similar?)
Psycannon bolts, which ignore Inv. saves. Imagine an AP1 gun that fires blessed psycannon bolts. No saves at all...

Stingray_tm
05-07-2007, 10:43
Have you found the rangers and pathfinders to be rather nasty?

Yes. (They kill MCs more effectively than starcannons) But what in the current Eldar Codex isn't...?



What is the best way for killing them when they are in hard cover?
Hormagaunts eat Rangers alive. As long as the Rangers are not in some kind of sniper towers, which they usually are. But then i got Winged Warriors for that.
In any case, try to hit them with fast cc units. Rangers will die to anything cc oriented.

Stingray_tm
05-07-2007, 10:50
Please remember that these weapons are not rending; they still have to wound.

Which they do 50% of the time.



As such they would be "getting a kill" for roughly every six men, not considering the possibility of an armour save being failed or Doom being used.
Which usually is the case.

Trust me, i have been playing against Eldar a lot lately. Two squads with 8 Pathfinders and a supporting Farseer kill Carnifexes dead. Maybe he needs an additional Starcannon or Brightlance shot, but usually my first Carnifex dies in round 1.

lobachevskii
05-07-2007, 11:02
Which they do 50% of the time.


Which usually is the case.

Trust me, i have been playing against Eldar a lot lately. Two squads with 8 Pathfinders and a supporting Farseer kill Carnifexes dead. Maybe he needs an additional Starcannon or Brightlance shot, but usually my first Carnifex dies in round 1.

Well that's 16 pathfinders instead of 10 now isn't it. :) In any case my original post was intended to answer the implied misunderstanding of the Ranger Long Rifle rule ... which is, sadly, widespread. I know that Pathfinders are good, they're just not that (meaning rending on 5's) good.

Enderel
05-07-2007, 11:06
Psycannon bolts, which ignore Inv. saves. Imagine an AP1 gun that fires blessed psycannon bolts. No saves at all...

Not sure I get what you mean? Blessed weapons are AP1? and ignore invulnerables? or is that psycannons? But surely they still don't ignore cover saves unless they have that ability as well? So AP1, inv ignoring, cover ignoring shots :wtf: surely not?

Stingray_tm
05-07-2007, 11:08
Agreed.

But usually the target gets doomed, so even 6 Pathfinders cause 3 wounds on a MC.

DeadChris
05-07-2007, 11:13
Not sure I get what you mean? Blessed weapons are AP1? and ignore invulnerables? or is that psycannons? But surely they still don't ignore cover saves unless they have that ability as well? So AP1, inv ignoring, cover ignoring shots :wtf: surely not?

He means imagine a gun with all those abilitys, psycannon, blessed ammo and AP1 = no saves of any kind, shame you can't actually do it :p.

I've always had trouble with eldar rangers, a quick flamer round is the only really effective thing ive found to kill them (which tbf will kill most eldar infantry as well:evilgrin:).

Enderel
05-07-2007, 11:29
Ah ok, sorry wasn't reading it right in the context of the question!

So blessed ammo ignores cover as is, that's an interesting one.

MrBigMr
05-07-2007, 11:36
So blessed ammo ignores cover as is, that's an interesting one.
Yes, they do. I guess it has something to do with the whole hot Sisters theme (meltas and flamers). I would imagine the bolts to be fitted with incendiary devices instead of normal explosives.

As for AP1 no-save rounds, ruleswise not possible, but if we'd take inferno bolts (or what ever it was the Thousand Sons had), which I've heard will be AP3 in the new codex. Take those, make them into psycannon bolts and then bless them. Bang, marine killing no-save rounds. Will propably cost you an arm and a lake in 40K universe, but who cares.

Brother Lysander
05-07-2007, 11:38
Whirlwind with incendiary missiles...mmmm, crispy Eldar.

BL

Latro_
05-07-2007, 12:02
Whirlwind with incendiary missiles...mmmm, crispy Eldar.

BL

I hear that, They used to drive eldar players mad when I used to take one.
Esp when d-reapers had 4+ save. Small unit, big template, killing on 2's

oh yes ye 200pt unit just died.

Brother-Hyuuga
05-07-2007, 12:04
Same thing happened to me. Rangers blasted apart my Chaos Marines something terrible for 4 turns, didnt kill one because they were in cover. Then the Raptors showed up and that was the end of that problem.

NerdyOgre254
05-07-2007, 12:08
A full squad of raptors with three flamers and a champion tends to sort them out really quickly for me.

scarletsquig
05-07-2007, 12:08
As an eldar player, I absolutely hate whirlwinds.. they negate pretty much all of the "hide behind cover" tricks we rely on, and have the perfect statline to have a "pie plate that kills on 2+" effect against most of our army.

Thankfully, they're not a very popular choice since most competitive marine players like to spam ass cannons instead of thinking for themselves ;)

Sabbad
05-07-2007, 12:19
As an Alaitoc player myself, I'm reluctant to give away any of my sneaky secrets, but as the chances are I'll never play you anyway...

Rangers are expensive, terrible in close combat and immobile. For you, that's the good news. The bad news is that what they do (sit still and shoot things) they do exceedingly efficiently. So it's about minimising their strengths and optimising upon their weaknesses.

As has been said, CC and template weapons kill Rangers. As a result, the Rangers will be desperately trying to keep you at arms length BUT they can't run away if they want to shoot at you. Unfortunately, they have a very good way of keeping back enemies: Pinning. Avoid circumstances in which you have to take these tests. If you play Orks, get big units to help with Mob Checks; if you play anyone else, get lots of small units. The Rangers only need 1 Kill to force a Pinning test. If you have a big unit, then they can tie down huge units by simply killing a few enemy models, something far harder to accomplish with multiple small units.

Bottom line, a Pinned unit can ruin your battle plan, so take whatever steps you can to prevent failed Pinning checks. This extends to army selection; IG comm-links, Marks of Chaos Undivided, Space Marines with Rites of Battle special rule etc.

As someone has already mentioned, avoid lines of fire. The Rangers won't want to move, certainly not out of whatever cover they're occupying, so try and find lines of approach that will restrict their targetting arcs. If you're lucky, they'll be forced to abandon cover to get to you, at which point they become sitting ducks for your heavy weapons.

Immolaters, Hellhounds and Skorchas are your friend. Rangers are rubbish against vehicles, and if they're Fast and have Template weapons as well then you have the perfect anti-Ranger combo.

Shooting at entrenched Rangers with your own guns is usually a bad idea, especially as the rest of the Eldar army is so squishy. Remember that cover saves will apply for almost all weapons, regardless of their Strength or AP, so don't fire a Rail Gun when you can fire a Pulse Rifle instead.

These are just generic tips, hope you find them useful. If I knew what army you played I might be able to give more specific advice...

Cleutin
05-07-2007, 13:01
Corax it sounds like you've got off lucky and never faced a 3rd edition Alaitoc Ranger Force. I still remember when Craftworld Eldar came out all the Eldar players here went hallooo Seer council Ulthwe! I already had Alaitoc painted up and went with that. Just think now you don't have Pathfinder getting AP1 shots on a 4 or sitting entrenched going "shoot me, see if I care i'm immune to shooting morale checks". Not to mention the old Ranger Disruption table... dam I miss that.

But yea they they crumble in assault or flamers. I'm still hurting from a CoD game I had where an Immolator drove up and went "blessed promethium & fueldump, that's a S7 reroll to wound flamer hit, your Rangers are toast!"

Son of Makuta
05-07-2007, 13:15
Rangers are rubbish against vehicles

Uh-uh, I'm afraid. I've used my Pathfinders two or three times (two squads of five, I know - I needed troops choices, ok?). Every time, at least one vehicle has died from a single round of sniping from one squad. I think it was a Space Wolf Dreadnought in cover the first time. In my last Eldar-using game, they killed a Predator Annihilator with the first salvo of the game.

Rangers are actually pretty good. I presume I'm just lucky in some cases, but don't assume your lighter vehicles are immune. If you've got a Land Raider Helios, you're laughing, but other than that you can't really rely on vehicles exclusively to kill them.

Nah, I'd just recommend assault squads. Hormagaunts, Raptors, Assault Marines, anything. Tau players might want to infiltrate Kroot near them, or deep-strike flamer-toting Crisis behind them. Otherwise, grab a flamer and a chainsword and slog it.

You could, mind, just ignore them and try to kill the actual *army*... unless the Pathfinders are already sitting on an objective, they're more or less 240pts (of my army) that aren't doing anything useful. Especially in Alpha level games.

Steel_Legion
05-07-2007, 13:18
I whacked em with an orbital bombardment one time... killed 1! damn 2+ cover saves! Then my assassin had his way with them, close combat is the way to go, firefights usually mean anything left will be shooting next turn, combat and they dont have that luxuary. Pathfinders are a right pain in the a*** though, but then they cost alot

Stingray_tm
05-07-2007, 13:26
Oh, i had a lot of fun when we played a mission with preliminary bombardement. The enemies Pathfinders were the only unit hit and out of 8 five died (no cover save allowed in this case) :D

Sabbad
05-07-2007, 13:28
You destroyed a Predator with sniper rifles? How is that even possible? Don't Predators have an AV of 13?

Cleutin
05-07-2007, 13:44
Walk in the park mate, I do it all the time to predators/vindictors/dreadnoughts.
Farseer walks up casts Eldritch Storm spinning it round then the Rangers pop it in the back. :cool:

TwilightOdyssey
05-07-2007, 13:51
Any decent close combat unit will slice up Rangers/Pathfinders and serve em up as sandwiches. Just hope there isn't a unit of Striking Scorpions or similar around when you do it. :)

Da Black Gobbo
05-07-2007, 14:39
Eeeeh, Psy ammo don't ignore cover armour only special saves. Ain't that?

MrBigMr
05-07-2007, 15:07
Eeeeh, Psy ammo don't ignore cover armour only special saves. Ain't that?
Psycannon bolts ignore Inv. save. Blessed ammor ignore cover save. Bless psycannon bolts and you have ammo that ignores both. But that's not possible in game rules.

badnewsblair
05-07-2007, 15:14
Great thread! Looks like I might invest in a squad of Rangers at some point!

scarletsquig
05-07-2007, 15:18
They're okay, but not great - a good balanced unit. A small unit will kill 1-2 marines a turn, nothing special, nothing awful.

They are mainly there to deal with any tricky high-toughness beasties.

sebster
05-07-2007, 15:23
Please remember that these weapons are not rending; they still have to wound. As such they would be "getting a kill" for roughly every six men, not considering the possibility of an armour save being failed or Doom being used.

Whoops, I was thinking the AP1 result came from the roll to wound, not the roll to hit. That changes things a whole lot... my mistake.

Thoth62
05-07-2007, 15:30
They do a fantastic job against my expensive TS rubric marines. They only last untill I can get a Template weapon or Close Combat unit to bear on it though. But untill then, you're dealing with what can sometimes be a 2+ cover save, which makes them nearly impervious to normal shooting.

Corax
05-07-2007, 15:56
Re: Rangers vs Vehicles

In the same game, the Rangers took out my Landspeeder Tornado! :mad:

But not before the asscannon on the speeder took out his Avatar! :cheese:

Getting hammered by the Rangers was mostly my own fault. Having not played against them since the new Codex came out, I didn't give them enough respect. I'm not going to make that mistake again! Time to dust off ye olde Whirlwind, methinks...

Grand Master Raziel
05-07-2007, 18:37
Have you found the rangers and pathfinders to be rather nasty?

Yes.



What is the best way for killing them when they are in hard cover?

Any flame template weapon will mess them up nicely, as flame template weapons ignore cover saves, has good enough AP to ignore their armor saves, automatically hits anything the template touches, and will wound T3 models on a minimum of a 3+ roll.


Psycannon bolts, which ignore Inv. saves.

They ignore Invulnerable saves, not Cover saves.


You destroyed a Predator with sniper rifles? How is that even possible? Don't Predators have an AV of 13?

Only on the front. The sides are AV11, the rear AV10.


Time to dust off ye olde Whirlwind, methinks...

Well, the Whirly is probably worthwhile against Eldar just for the psychological value, but don't go dropping the pie plates on Rangers or Pathfinders, as it won't have much effect on them. Instead, what you might do is look at your high-speed flamer or heavy flamer platforms. There's Tornados with multi-meltas and heavy flamers, Assault Squads with flamers, Bike Squads with flamers - this might be very good, as you can Turbo-boost them into place and benefit from a 3+ invulnerable save the turn before you strike. You could take Dreadnoughts, upgrade the storm bolter on the CCW arm to a heavy flamer, and deploy them via drop pod - that's a favorite of mine.

Alternately, if you're willing to drop some money on Forge World stuff, there's a little beauty for the SM army called a Siege Dreadnought. It's armed with an assault drill with a built-in heavy flamer and an inferno cannon! :evilgrin: The rules for the thing are in Imperial Armor Update, last time I checked. You can find the parts you need to make the thing here (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/acatalog/SPACE_MARINE_DREADNOUGHTS.html).

Brother Lysander
05-07-2007, 18:58
the Whirly is probably worthwhile against Eldar just for the psychological value, but don't go dropping the pie plates on Rangers or Pathfinders, as it won't have much effect on them

Not looked what the incendiary ammo does then? I'll say it again...mmmm, crispy Eldar :p.

BL

Bulwyf
05-07-2007, 19:10
As a Black Templar player I like to use a 5 man bike squad for anti Ranger work. The first turn they speed boost to the sniper nest so as to get a 3+ invul save, then on the 2nd turn they close in for 3 flamethower templates and CC. Ususally that does the trick and if not, the bikes will keep the rangers busy for a couple of turns. Oh yeah and its fun too.


-Will

MrBigMr
05-07-2007, 20:42
They ignore Invulnerable saves, not Cover saves.
I said "Psycannon bolts, which ignore Inv. saves."
Inv. = Invulnerable, right?

Dooks Dizzo
05-07-2007, 20:49
You know I take the exact opposite stance on Rangers/Pathfinders to be honest. I just don't think they are all that great.

First off the cost almost as much as a Grey Knight without any sort of tactical flexibility. To make them really effective they need to be fielded in squads larger than 6. You need a Doomseer to really get anything out of them.

They might suprise people who haven't fought them before but it won't be too many games before they start getting either killed or ignored.

Did I mention they are expensive?

PS: GK Incinerators are heavy flamers that ignore both Invulnerable AND Cover.

Tanith Ghost
05-07-2007, 20:52
Hellhounds. I love the smell of burnt eldar in the morning.

HKF1971
05-07-2007, 21:58
My hellhounds die alot

Randy
06-07-2007, 01:25
Tbh, that's why I like BA. For one reason and one reason alone. Death company.

3+ save, jump packs (Not free anymore but at 5 points a model a BARGAIN!!) and 4+ feel no pain against shooting assuming it's not instant death (Yes that does mean on a 4+ I don't care that I didn't get a save :P).

With 4 attacks on the charge and -rending- they'll make a mess of almsot anything - even a WL potentially with Corbulo rushing up in an assualt squads rhino to make sure they get furious charge.

If you even have just 4 DC by the time you get there, that's 16 rending attacks - giving you 2/3 rending attacks already.

Then you've got the assualt squads attacks, the rest of the DC and the fact you're striking first!

If it's scorpions used for the defence, DC will take care of them npnp, especially if corbulo is nearby. Matching them on numbers of attacks (minus the mandi blasters) and the same save.

Albiet SS have mandi blasters but DC get feel no pain and rending, they'll at the very least bring down some of the scorpions and pin them there for a couple of turns.

If it's a farseer with retinue (a waste really tbh but meh) then quite obviously you just use a GK unit to DS with an incinerator (or can you get 2 in 1 unit?) and that'll let you thin out the farseer + retinue somewhat to take the edge off them.

Presuming that goes horribly wrong before the assualt - you don't care because you've got a baal predator - twin linked AC and HB side sponsons :D farseer and retinue = dead - particularly given that they only have a slight edge on the GK in combat stat wise, far less then they would need to stand up to them after the incinerator and salvo from the baal =D

Far more resilient and flexible then using an assualt squad with flamers, it keeps you in combat for a turn so you escape being shot at :P (After all how many rangers would still be alive after 2 flamer templates and a marine assualt squad charge? :P)

elvinltl
06-07-2007, 02:19
I play Alaitoc and i field 10 Pathfinders. They are a gamble honestly, sometimes they only get 1 AP1 shot per squad. However, there was this instance i was lucky enough to get 3 AP1 shot for the first squad, they second squad rolled 4 AP1 shots. The entire Tac squad dissapeared instantly. :D

Btw, do you really think Eldar Players are stupid enough to allow flamers and CC units to get close to their Pathfinders? In syncrony with my 10 Pathfinders, i field 10 WarpSpiders going about picking out dangerous CC targets and potential oradance weapons like whirlwinds.

Lol, i'll probably let your Death Company taste 48 S6 per turn tatic with my 10 WS and 3 WW. Hope they feel enough pain after that much wounding especially with dooming making wounding literally unavoidable when it's 2+ re-roll to wound...

How does Harlequins fare against DC? Seems like an interesting fight when they fight their mirrors.

zeep
06-07-2007, 02:35
Make em eat gaunts. Bet they dont make back there points :D

Randy
06-07-2007, 02:37
10 WS?

And 3 WW isnt that nasty - I was helping my mate write an army list and the best WW unit I could think of that wasn't like 200 odd points was 3 with shuriken cannons, guided by a farseer who would help with assualt against them/pathfinders and another farseer escorting the WL using doom - we worked out they'll fell about 3/4 marines a turn which for 190 points including the farseer who isn't JUST for them was pretty beasty

48 S6 shots though? How big is that army? I'm thinking of 1000 points.. Otherwise I'd be considoring taking corbulo up with an assualt squad with my bikes tieing up anything too nasty/blocking LoS wth combat.. But I'm still trying to get used to the way the new BA codex works :/

I've read the rules for warp spiders and in all honesty I don't like them, they're a pretty beasty unit assuming they work, but having a 1/6 chance of losing a model -everytime- you jump? That's pretty risky - especially if you don't get what you want and end up landing in difficult terrain.. (I'm pretty sure you die on 1s as you're using jet packs to land in DT? But I'm not 100% sure not palyed much with the 4th ed..) but I cna definately see why they'd be useful.

Dooks Dizzo
06-07-2007, 02:44
Randy, Warp Spiders only die to a double if they decide to make a SECOND jump in the assault phase.

It goes like this:
Spider Movement Phase: 12" move
Spider Assault Phase: May choose to Assault 6" as normal, do nothing, or roll 2D6 and move that many inches in any direction.

Should they roll 2D6 and the numbers come up as a double one model from the unit is lost and the squad still moves the number of inches shown.

Also I am near positive the odds on getting a double are worse than 1 in 6. No less than 1 in 12, otherwise Craps would be a much difference game.

sebster
06-07-2007, 03:03
Also I am near positive the odds on getting a double are worse than 1 in 6. No less than 1 in 12, otherwise Craps would be a much difference game.

Roll a die. Roll another die, trying to roll the same number as the first die. It's going to be a one in six chance of rolling the same number on the second die, isn't it?

Dooks Dizzo
06-07-2007, 03:11
Doesn't quite work like that. You have a 1 in 6 chance of rolling any one number on a D6 yes. But statistically your odds of rolling the same number twice are worse than 1 in 6.

Someone who's good at this crap can explain it better.

DantesInferno
06-07-2007, 03:32
Doesn't quite work like that. You have a 1 in 6 chance of rolling any one number on a D6 yes. But statistically your odds of rolling the same number twice are worse than 1 in 6.

Someone who's good at this crap can explain it better.

No, the probability of rolling a double on 2D6 really is 1/6.

Roll your first die. Whatever you get on it, there's a 1/6 chance that the second die will get the same number (as sebster said).

Or, if you want, there's a 1/36 chance of getting a double 1, a 1/36 chance of getting a double 2, a 1/36 chance of getting a double 3, a 1/36 chance of getting a double 4, a 1/36 chance of getting a double 5 and a 1/36 chance of getting a double 6.

Add them up, and you get (6 times 1/36 = 1/6) chance of getting a double.

sebster
06-07-2007, 04:31
Doesn't quite work like that. You have a 1 in 6 chance of rolling any one number on a D6 yes. But statistically your odds of rolling the same number twice are worse than 1 in 6.

Someone who's good at this crap can explain it better.

No, it works exactly like that. I am good at this crap and I have explained it to you.

Roll one die, it's going to come up with a number from 1 to 6. Whatever that number is, the odds of a second die rolling the same number is going to be 1 in 6.

Randy
06-07-2007, 14:08
Count it up - 6X6 possible outcomes = 36

6 potential doubles

Cancels to 1/6, it's why the smarter eldar players don't generally use warp spiders (At least in my experience playing them anyhow..)

MrBigMr
06-07-2007, 14:23
2D6 works were differently from a D6:
http://www.tauonline.org/ViewContent.php?id=121

As for doubles:
Say we want to roll doubles. What are the chances of that? Because the outcome of one die is unaffected by the outcome of the other they are independent, and we multiply:

1/6 * 1/6 = 1/36 or 2.77%(1 divided by 36 times 100) chance of rolling doubles.
http://www.toddholoubek.com/classes/livingart/probability.html

Stingray_tm
06-07-2007, 14:31
I am no Tau player, but when i look at the Codex, a deep striking battle suit with an air burst grenade launcher should be devastating for Snipers.

Stingray_tm
06-07-2007, 14:35
As for doubles:
Say we want to roll doubles. What are the chances of that? Because the outcome of one die is unaffected by the outcome of the other they are independent, and we multiply:

1/6 * 1/6 = 1/36 or 2.77%(1 divided by 36 times 100) chance of rolling doubles.
http://www.toddholoubek.com/classes/livingart/probability.html

Thats the probability of rolling a specific double result (e.g 1-1) NOT the probability of rolling ANY double (1-1 OR 2-2 OR 3-3, etc.).

Cravon
06-07-2007, 15:04
I played against Eldar using the new codex and got absolutely killed by them, particularly the rangers and pathfinders. I'm not complaining or saying anything silly like that they are cheese, I just didn't realise how nasty they are when they start putting out AP1 shots left, right, and center. Obviously, I will have to make them a target priority next time I play against them. To help me do this, I have a couple of questions for your consideration:

Have you found the rangers and pathfinders to be rather nasty?

What is the best way for killing them when they are in hard cover?

Tau marker lights and rail rifles. works well for me, when i face them :evilgrin:

Grand Master Raziel
06-07-2007, 16:50
Not looked what the incendiary ammo does then? I'll say it again...mmmm, crispy Eldar :p.

BL

Oh yeah, I'm sure the incendiary rockets would work marvelously, but that's a DA-only toy, if I'm not mistaken.


I said "Psycannon bolts, which ignore Inv. saves."
Inv. = Invulnerable, right?

My point is that Cover Saves and Inv. saves are two different things. So, psy-bolts may ignore Inv. saves, but Rangers and Pathfinders still get their duck-fu powers against them.



PS: GK Incinerators are heavy flamers that ignore both Invulnerable AND Cover.

Aw yeah! AP4, too. One of my favorites! :evilgrin:



Btw, do you really think Eldar Players are stupid enough to allow flamers and CC units to get close to their Pathfinders? In syncrony with my 10 Pathfinders, i field 10 WarpSpiders going about picking out dangerous CC targets and potential oradance weapons like whirlwinds.

Hey, give us marine players some credit! Some of us are wiley enough to be able to put our flame units on target regardless of what tricksy shenanigans you may try and pull!


Tau marker lights and rail rifles. works well for me, when i face them :evilgrin:

You use rail rifles on Rangers? Isn't that rather like swatting flies with a sledgehammer?

Randy
06-07-2007, 17:25
You use rail rifles on Rangers? Isn't that rather like swatting flies with a sledgehammer?

Well yeh, that's kind of the point of pathfinders - they're hard as hell to get rid of despite their stats looking deceptively crap at a glance :P Flamers are getting better and better everytime I think about them - first they were jsut good because I could shoot and charge with them (when 4th ed came out) then I keep finding little uses like this!

MrBigMr
06-07-2007, 22:22
My point is that Cover Saves and Inv. saves are two different things. So, psy-bolts may ignore Inv. saves, but Rangers and Pathfinders still get their duck-fu powers against them.
MY point is that BLESSED ammunition of the Witch Hunters ignores cover save. So if you were to take Psycannon bolts and have them BLESSED, they would ignore both. Right? Huh? Huh?

Sabbad
06-07-2007, 22:51
Yes, and if you were to make a Dreadaxe a template weapon it would ignore both types of save as well.

It's a moot point - it's not rules-legal to bless psycannon ammunition...

elvinltl
07-07-2007, 07:40
The thing is how many times you decide to take blessed amunition? Just because you know you will be facing Eldar so your bless it, i mean if i knew i will be fighting blessed i won't field Pathfinders either.

Maybe grenades can do the trick of negating cover saves?

Randy
07-07-2007, 14:53
Which is why I like flamers, they're good against all sorts xD even if it is jsut for forcing a couple of saves before you charge :P