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View Full Version : Can Grot Bombs Attack a Target the Same Turn They're Fired?



Kymmerus
05-07-2007, 15:14
The title describes the question really...

Was playing a game with some orks last night and am wondering if the grot bombs can strike in the same shooting phase that they come into play? We couldn't find anything that says they can't so we ruled that the planes within 3 inches of them were valid targets that shooting phase.

Consequently that ruling could have some interesting implications for a plane tight behind the fighta-bomber that drops the grot bombs... in theory the grots could attack the plane behind it...

Just wondering what you all think of that...

orangesm
05-07-2007, 20:33
Seems fair. However if you are holding off that long to fire Grot Bombs I think you are waiting way to long.

mageboltrat
06-07-2007, 01:39
Hmm I've always played it as NO... however there have been quite a lot of times when it would have came in useful if I could... I normally field 4 FB with Grot Bombs, and release them in 2 waves to stop the opponent just Dive bombing, waiting for them to run out of fuel and then hitting my fleet.

Kymmerus
06-07-2007, 02:11
Seems fair. However if you are holding off that long to fire Grot Bombs I think you are waiting way to long.

Actually that was turn one :D We were playing a 4 player FFA and it immediately degenerated into a massive furball... I ended up very close to a lightning strike on the first turn and grots away! :p


Hmm I've always played it as NO... however there have been quite a lot of times when it would have came in useful if I could... I normally field 4 FB with Grot Bombs, and release them in 2 waves to stop the opponent just Dive bombing, waiting for them to run out of fuel and then hitting my fleet.

I like the idea of staggering waves of grot bombs... I considered something briefly in my first turn but opted to hit the dakka button instead...

I could definately see using the grot bombs hitting on the turn they launch as a nice orky way of dealing with things with large numbers of hits... or is that just too much dakka in the hands of a 22pt fighta bomer?

Tyra_Nid
06-07-2007, 02:11
I dont see why not... Nothing against it in the rules, right? Ive theyve fired theyve fired.

HarkonGreywolf
07-07-2007, 18:11
Whilst I think that the Grot Bombs probably can be shot at targets within 3" in the turn that theu are fired they can't loop back and have a go at the plane tailing. That would be a Manoevre and that can only take place on the Movement phase which comes before the Firing phase when they are "released"!

Their fire arc, or target arc more properly, is in front of them and they are dropped/fired facing forward in the same direction altitude and speed as the Fighta-Bomma that carried them.

So, as long as the target is on the same altitude and within 3" of their front fire arc there's no reason why the Grots can't "'Av' a go!", after all, they have been "Fired" and that includes targetting an enemy, I believe.

HG

broodjeork
07-07-2007, 23:22
i thought about it as wel and looked it up,

it sais that grot ombs can attempt to clolide with an aircraft in the firing fase ( doesnt say when.) and

3 gueses when then grot bombs are released(yup in the firing fase and againg dusnt say when )

so my thoughts where yo can cause you drop em first andn then try to colide.

also it said that when the grot bombs are reeleased the act sepately so its stuck to the plane anymore can can "shoot" on his own

Kymmerus
08-07-2007, 04:57
Whilst I think that the Grot Bombs probably can be shot at targets within 3" in the turn that theu are fired they can't loop back and have a go at the plane tailing. That would be a Manoevre and that can only take place on the Movement phase which comes before the Firing phase when they are "released"!

Their fire arc, or target arc more properly, is in front of them and they are dropped/fired facing forward in the same direction altitude and speed as the Fighta-Bomma that carried them.

So, as long as the target is on the same altitude and within 3" of their front fire arc there's no reason why the Grots can't "'Av' a go!", after all, they have been "Fired" and that includes targetting an enemy, I believe.

HG

Actually its reading of the Grot bomb's firing arc that lead to my thoughts on this... technically it seems to me that it doesn't have one!

I'll admit it sounds reasonable for it to ram a target head on, thats how it would 'logically' be presumed to collide.

But no where in its rules description does it mention a forward firing arc being necessary for it to attack, and in particular a firing arc is omitted from its stats...

This makes me wonder if Forgeworld intended for facing not to be an issue for the grot bomb... which in turn brings up the bombs potentially shooting down a plane behind them and their mother fighta-bommer... which just sounds odd... or is this a case of my taking RAW too far?

HarkonGreywolf
08-07-2007, 10:25
I think actually the arrows on the bases tell you exactly which direction the planes/grot bombs are travelling.
Don't forget, Grot Bombs when released are same altitude and same speed as their carrier plane.
There is no way that they'd be travelling in any other direction except that of the carrier either. They couldn't physically be moving in a tangential or reverese direction to the carrier! Physics wouldn't allow that!
And to turn in any other direction involves, yes, a turn, which is a manoevre, which takes place before the firing phase.
Therefore Grot Bombs are restricted to all the things that the carrier is doing when released, same Altitude, same Speed, same direction!!! (I know it specifically doesn't say that, but come on, it couldn't be anything else now could it? ;) )
(And don't get me started on RAW, LOL - see my sig! And in case anyone doesn't know CAMFORAI - Campaign For Rules As Intended! ;) )
Hope this explains why my logic leads me to these conclusions?

HG

broodjeork
08-07-2007, 11:25
i gues we'l have to send this question to forgeworld itself and see what they think?

HarkonGreywolf
08-07-2007, 12:15
LOL
What makes you think they'll get it right! ;)
Hehe!

But worth a try eh?
I still don't see how a Grot Bomb could be fired backwards though!!

HG

Charax
08-07-2007, 13:54
Yes, it's not like Forgeworld are the ones who wrote the game or anything, why expect them to get it right? You obviously know far better than they do what they intended the rules to be. Dispite proclaiming to support RAI, it actually appears you support RAI-as-long-as-it-agrees-with-you.

The RAW are fairly clear on this - you deploy the Grot Bombs in the firing phase, at the same speed and altitude as the firing aircraft. the deployment positions are clearly illustrated - you place them on the front-right and the front-left sides of the aircraft's base (if it wasn't for that diagram you'd be able to deploy them anywhere in base contact with the FB, so long as they were facing the same direction as the FB). They cannot move or perform maneuvres for that turn, because they come into play after the movement phase.

The rules go on to say that if the Grot Bomb finds itself within 3" of an enemy aircraft and on the same altitude level in the Firing Phase (note that it doesn't specify at the beginning of the firing phase) then it may attempt to collide with an enemy aircraft. Therefore, Grot Bombs may collide with an aircraft as soon as they're deployed, if the following circumstances are met:
- the enemy aircraft must be at the same altitude as the firing aircraft
- the enemy aircraft must be within 3" of the position the grot bomb will be deployed in (so it could potentially be up to 4" away from the firing aircraft itself)

Now, if those HIGHLY specific circumstances come about, I see no problem with the Grot Bomb firing straight into an aircraft. if the GB wasn't capable of high-speed turns then the 3" rule wouldn't be in place and you'd only be able to use it if the model comes into contact with another one. If the 3" rule specified that the enemy craft had to be in front of the GB then, you wouldn't be able to use it on someone behind you, but it doesn't.

The existing rules cover the situation as they are, no real need for an FAQ or guessing on anybody's part, you can collide grot bombs in the same phase as they're deployed, because the rules don't specify that the enemy has to be within 3" at the start of the Firing phase. The Grot Bomb being deployed is not a firing action on behalf of the bomb, it's firing on behalf of the FB.

HarkonGreywolf
08-07-2007, 15:10
"Yes, it's not like Forgeworld are the ones who wrote the game or anything, why expect them to get it right? You obviously know far better than they do what they intended the rules to be. Dispite proclaiming to support RAI, it actually appears you support RAI-as-long-as-it-agrees-with-you."

There's always one ain't there?:(

Haven't you ever come across humourous comments in your traversing of this real world?
Or are you so up-tight that the thought of taking something lightly "In the spirit in which it was written" is too much to cope with!
Oh, of course, you're advocating RAW, I should have guessed!
No imagination, no sense of humour and no chance of joining the rest of us in the human race!

By the way, for the "Hard of thinking" the above paragraph is written in a humorous manner and is not intended to cause too much offence, but for goodness sake start taking a lighter view on life or you'll have ulcers before you finish. This is meant to be fun and a hobby, I enjoy myself and quite often, people find amusing comments exactly that, amusing!!

As to your comments on the Rules Book, I generally agree with what you have written except for the comment:
"If the 3" rule specified that the enemy craft had to be in front of the GB then, you wouldn't be able to use it on someone behind you, but it doesn't."

So you are advocating the theory that Grot Bombs can reverse into their targets eh? :eek:

A novel theory and perhaps I have misjudged you! Maybe your sense of humour is so developed that I missed it the first time round!! ;)

I look forward to your next humorous insights!! :D

HG

Charax
08-07-2007, 15:27
How can you possibly advocate RAI and then claim that a FAQ from the people who wrote the damned thing won't give the "right" answer? How can anyone know the RAI better than those who wrote it? so yes, you're advocating RAI as long as it agrees with what YOU think.




As to your comments on the Rules Book, I generally agree with what you have written except for the comment:
"If the 3" rule specified that the enemy craft had to be in front of the GB then, you wouldn't be able to use it on someone behind you, but it doesn't."
So which part of that are you disagreeing with? Are you disagreeing that the rule states the enemy has to be within 3" of the Grot Bomb before the bomb can attempt collision? Are you saying that if the 3" rule stated that the targeted craft had to be in front of the grot bomb then the GB could attack ones behind it?

All a grot bomb has to do to hit a target behind it is slow down. If you want a logical reason as to why the bomb can hit targets behind the firing craft just say that the bomb cuts thrust a few moments after being fired - it's basic physics.

How's this for a humorous insight: Swallow your tongue.

HarkonGreywolf
08-07-2007, 15:57
"How's this for a humorous insight: Swallow your tongue."

That is extremely rude! I feel that you may need to grow up a little before being allowed out into polite society again!
I find your whole attitude and approach offensive.

And I fail to see the relevance of your arguments which are specious at best.

I can advocate RAI quite happily in the light of many pronouncements by FW/GW which have been proven to be contradictory, against the previously written spirit of the game and all sorts of other reasons. I am allowed an opinion which differs from yours I suppose?

Where do you get off with proclaiming that FW/GW are like Gods and cannot get anything wrong?

The impression I get from your rather "mightier than thou" responses is that you do not like people having their own opinions! What's the matter, afraid of perhaps being found out? Whatever you do don't think for yourself eh? Toe the party line or get thrown out eh? For goodness sake lighten up!

This isn't Criminal Law we're discussing, it's a set of Rules written by people who want to play a game! They aren't infallible or there wouldn't need to be FAQ's etc in the first place! Added to this is the fact that "Firing Grot Bombs Backwards" isn't addressed in the Rule Book, hence this thread now. Proof that FW/GW sometimes omit things from their rules!

Either that or Proof that some people will "Rules Lawyer" everything in print into the ground just to get an unfair advantage in a game.

Guess what, it IS a game, why not just approach it like a game instead of ruining it for everyone by making an "International Incident" out of it?

As to which part of your statement I'm disagreeing with, it is obvious to anyone with half a brain who has actually read what I've written! I do not expect you to understand all the big words as you obviously have a problem! However, I do expect a little attention to be paid to things I have written which you then question!

Again, for the "Hard of thinking" I'll reiterate my point in words of as few syllables as I can!

Weapons can generally hit targets in their firing arc.
Grot Bombs act as independant "'planes" once released.
Therefore, as with every other plane in the game, they move in the direction of the arrow on their base.

As Grot Bombs "hit" by flying into their targets, it makes sense that they have to hit the target in the direction in which they are flying.

Elsewhere in the rules it states that 'planes cannot collide, no matter how close they are or even if they occupy the same "air-space" on the board. Grot Bombs are the exception that states they can target an enemy plane on the same altitude and within 3". It makes "common sense" that they cannot target anything outside their front arc. It would effectively mean that the 'plane behind them would be flying into them. Errr, No! That is specifically ruled out by the Rule Book/FAQ.

I hope that this explanation is simple enough for you to grasp without further explanation. However I do not expect miracles.

If you must respond, please keep it civil and on topic this time, with less of the personal insults and offensive behaviour.
We can all stoop to calling names, and believe me, I could do better than your attempts if I wanted to! I just do not think that this is the correct place for a slanging match or flame war!

HG

Kymmerus
08-07-2007, 16:00
I've finally sent an e-mail to Forgeworld asking for clarification regarding the bombs attacking in the firing phase and regarding their 'attack arc' as well...

I'm going with the prediction that attacking in the firing phase they deploy is likely to be a yes... (that seems to be the general concensus)

I am honestly kind of torn regarding their 'attack arc' I've played it for the one game as within three inches (no matter the bomb's facing to target) and it did seem to play okay.. the bombs weren't ungodly nasty or anything using that interpretation (then again its only one game, so not much of a sample to draw upon) I still think its just weird for the thought that they're able to hit something behind them... then again Charax's take:


All a grot bomb has to do to hit a target behind it is slow down. If you want a logical reason as to why the bomb can hit targets behind the firing craft just say that the bomb cuts thrust a few moments after being fired - it's basic physics.

Doesn't seem so out there either... IE the rule being written to account for the 'reality' being that the grot does whatever freaky short term moves to make a collision within that 3" radius happen irrespective of his 'gameplay' direction of travel or manouvres. (Seems Proppa Orky dat :p to me anyways)

Charax
08-07-2007, 16:04
"How's this for a humorous insight: Swallow your tongue."

That is extremely rude! I feel that you may need to grow up a little before being allowed out into polite society again!
I find your whole attitude and approach offensive.
Oh, terribly sorry, I forgot to say that I was joking, which apparently makes everything alright.


This isn't Criminal Law we're discussing, it's a set of Rules written by people who want to play a game! They aren't infallible or there wouldn't need to be FAQ's etc in the first place! Added to this is the fact that "Firing Grot Bombs Backwards" isn't addressed in the Rule Book, hence this thread now. Proof that FW/GW sometimes omit things from their rules!

Grot bombs firing backwards ARE addressed in the rules - a Grot Bomb can target anything within 3" - even if it's behind the bomb. This doesn't change depending on when the bomb was launched.


Guess what, it IS a game, why not just approach it like a game instead of ruining it for everyone by making an "International Incident" out of it?

Yes, it's a GAME
Game: a competitive activity involving skill, chance, or endurance on the part of two or more persons who play according to a set of rules, usually for their own amusement or for that of spectators.


As to which part of your statement I'm disagreeing with, it is obvious to anyone with half a brain who has actually read what I've written! I do not expect you to understand all the big words as you obviously have a problem!
and I'm the offensive one?


If you must respond, please keep it civil and on topic this time, with less of the personal insults and offensive behaviour.
We can all stoop to calling names, and believe me, I could do better than your attempts if I wanted to! I just do not think that this is the correct place for a slanging match or flame war!
Hypocrite

HarkonGreywolf
08-07-2007, 16:08
I can sympathise with your views Kymmerus, but the rules do say that 'planes cannot collide with each other. And a Grot Bomb "slowing down" or whatever, means that the 'plane behind would be colliding with it rather than the other way round.
Yes it would be Proppa Orky, but not necessarily consistent with the rest of the rules. After all, not being able to collide isn't very Orky is it? But no other Orky 'planes can use this when they run out of ammo? :D

And don't forget, the Grots are not told about the terminal nature of their missions, they believe they'll survive the attack somehow. How can they reconcile that with another plane crashing into them? Seems a bit unlikely I think, but then again they're Orks ...

HG

HarkonGreywolf
08-07-2007, 16:15
Charax, you are obviously only in this to provoke a response which constitutes a flame war.
I refuse to be drawn into this any further.
You haven't addressed the valid Rules points I've made, just the bits you
want to use to provoke a reaction.
As to who is the hypocrit, as I didn't start this mess, I would consider that question moot!
Obviously anything I say will be twisted against me so it's all yours.
You obviously have the much bigger intellect and I can't possibly match your outstanding wit and repartee, so I will have to decline further response. [Sarcasm mode off]
Hope this satisfies you.

HG

Kymmerus
08-07-2007, 16:34
I can sympathise with your views Kymmerus, but the rules do say that 'planes cannot collide with each other. And a Grot Bomb "slowing down" or whatever, means that the 'plane behind would be colliding with it rather than the other way round.
Yes it would be Proppa Orky, but not necessarily consistent with the rest of the rules. After all, not being able to collide isn't very Orky is it? But no other Orky 'planes can use this when they run out of ammo? :D

Yeah, thats a good point too.. though the grot bombs clearly are the exception to collisions.


And don't forget, the Grots are not told about the terminal nature of their missions, they believe they'll survive the attack somehow. How can they reconcile that with another plane crashing into them? Seems a bit unlikely I think, but then again they're Orks ...

Oh my grots could reconcile it through simply being told: "You's safest da closer yous gets to dere planes! Dere's gunz and rokkits is made fer shootin far, so dey can't shoot youz close up! So be a safe little grot and stick really close... Hur hur hur :evilgrin: :skull: "

BTW: Really when the blanket 3" rule regardless of facing was opted for in my gaming group I really gave over its interpretation to all my opponents, they figured that the grot bombs could/should play that way... I just thought about it and had issues with them colliding backwards and could see that as an "arguement worthy" situation when it happens (which HarkonGreywolf and Charax have admirably demonstrated ;) ) that could use some clarity/concensus before any games get wrecked due to false/correct interpretations of backwards colliding grots... and colliding tempers...

Charax
08-07-2007, 17:02
te one thing everyone agrees on is that Grot Bombs can collide with planes in the same firing phase in which they're deployed, the only point of contention is whether Grot Bombs can collide with planes behind them (while in flight or just deployed is irrelevant - the Grot Bomb's collision rules aren't any different in the turn they're deployed or while in flight, if they can collide with planes behind them while flying, they can do it when they've just been deployed)

HarkonGreywolf
08-07-2007, 18:09
Hi Kymmerus,

I can see your point! LOL
It certainly did cause a bit of contention eh?
Silly thing is its only the "all round" firing arc question that's in question! We all agree that they should be able to Hit in the turn that they're fired/released from the FB.

Charax,
Life's too short! If I provoked you in any way I apologise, it IS a game and I took exception to your treatment of my jokey comment about FW and also took exception to your "RAW/FW are right" stance, when in reality everyone's entitled to their own opinion, right or wrong!

Let's just play eh?

HG

HarkonGreywolf
09-07-2007, 20:28
Hey Kymmerus,
Any response from the guys at FW?
I'd be very interested in their take on the deal.

HG

kris.sherriff
10-07-2007, 00:19
You are all thinking too 2d. A grot bomb could easly turn and hit the target behind it just as modern day misiles manouver themselves in to a position alongside the pilot before exploding. So it is easy to see why in the case a RAW and a RAI view are both correct. Remember that it is an abstraction and that there arn't really 9 altitude bands and that the grot can pilot his bomb in any direction he wishes once he is launched.
On a side note I see no reason why a grot bomb can't be placed on the trailing edges of the base rather than the leading edge as with a slight climb of altitude the fighter could leave it behing or with a small ingreas in thrust after the launch.

Kymmerus
10-07-2007, 03:01
Hey Kymmerus,
Any response from the guys at FW?
I'd be very interested in their take on the deal.

HG

Nothing Yet... I'll post here as soon as I receive a response...

HarkonGreywolf
10-07-2007, 21:08
To kris.sherriff,
Actually where and how you place the Grot Bombs is specifically stated and shown in a diagram in the Rule Book.
Surely there can't be any debate about that? ;)
They are on the right and left forward angles of the Fighta-bommas's base pointing in the same direction and at the same speed and altitude of the Fighta-bomma when it released them.

If you are talking about making House Rules, then of course, you can do anything you like, but officially there isn't any option for the launch position.


To Kymmerus, sorry, was just getting impatient! ;) I'll be quiet and wait nicely now! <<Whistles to self, and wanders around a bit!>>
HG

kris.sherriff
10-07-2007, 23:24
Sorry Graywolf should have specified that I meant from a fluff perspective/house rule thing as the rule book actualy says the leading edge. Its was just while I was thinking about the physics of the grot bomb hitting things behind it that I came up with ways it was possible.

HarkonGreywolf
11-07-2007, 08:31
No probs mate. I had assumed that fact, but given the slightly "volatile" nature of previous posts I just wanted to make sure! ;)

Now I understand what you mean I can comment without "prejudice"! LOL

I understand that you can see a Grot Bomb "turning" and facing an opponent behind it, but I'm not convinced myself.

The GB's are "fixed" on pylons, or the Orky equivalent, under the wings of the F-B as per normal payloads. They face forwards for several reasons, 1) aerodynamics, 2) it's logical for the Ork flying to assume a forward perspective when he's flying and therefore aiming for the GB's release, 3) the Grots would not be happy facing away from the "fun"!!! ;)

The next point to consider is the speed of the game. As with 40k each turn comprises only seconds/minutes of real time, in fact AI is going to be much quicker in real terms because of the relative speeds of planes compared to the speeds of men and vehicles in 40k. There just wouldn't be time between release of the GB in the firing phase and the process of aiming to hit. In effect the firing is the last thing to be done each turn and would not take very long at all, especially compared with the time taken in the manoevre phase.

Final point, when you say Grot Bombs can "turn" to face any direction, shouldn't that be a manoevre point that takes place in the Movement phase?
If we're getting tied up in game mechanics rather than fluff it is important to establish this point, 'planes cannot "turn" at the end of each turn to face the way that the player wants because of the speed and physical attributes of flying, this is different to 40k, obviously. So, given planes cannot turn to face, why should a Grot Bomb be able to do this? They aren't "Very High" manoevrability (which surprises me actually!) so they are no more "agile" than the Fightas and F-Bs that accompany then. It seems unlikely to me that they could suddenly turn round in mid air and literally defy the laws of physics, i.e momentum and inertia, and go off at a tangent or 180 degree direction from their launch.

Don't get me wrong, personally I'd love my Grot Bombs to do all these things, I just don't see it as reasonable or realistic, in real life or game mechanics terms.

Hope this explains my thought processes a little better than before, I want to establish why I disagree with the assumption fully rather than just disagree and walk away! ;)

And I admit that I may be taking elements from fluff and real life and mixing them in with the game mechanics a bit, but I do not think that you should look at the game purely from the Rule Book point of view, that just makes it a chore and not a game.
HG

mageboltrat
11-07-2007, 09:05
I think it would be possible for a grot to go from being released to hitting an enemy behind it. If the enemy is tailing the grot could just hit the air brakes and fly straight into the enemy planes engines. Though I still can't get over a grot looking in the rear vier mirror to line up.

The rules allow a grot to hit anything in a 3" radius. I think this is meant to represent the fact that this is not a static battle with every plane stopping at the same time, hovering in the air, shooting and then starting up again next turn. It kind of assumes that the grot can intercept the enemy planes path at some point just before or after the shooting phase.

kris.sherriff
11-07-2007, 11:14
Sorry again.lol didn't mean truning as per 40k I meat as in manovering.
Although game wise grot bombs only have a high manoverability raiting, I assume that they are more agile than a normal aircraft due to the fact that they can actually collide with them. There by giving them a sharper 'turn' or loop or what ever.

As you said each turn is representative and there is no need to assume that the pilot of any aircraft is only fireing at the end of that turns move. So from a real life/fluff point of view surly grot bombs could be placed at any point allong the F-B's move. (Note I am not in any way trying to claim that this IS possible or should be game wise)

CaptainSenioris
12-07-2007, 12:40
I always figured that the bombs had little manouvreing thrusters, they're a rocket thats able to turn so it has to have something, those rudders probably wouldn't cut the mustard if you follow my meaning.

I see where HG is coming from in that there is a rule that could be interpretted to mean that grot bombs could never target anyone, 'planes cannot collide', but the rules for grot bombs clearly state that they can traget anyone within 3''. This could represent the grot manouvreing during his move to a position where it could hit the plane in the shooting phase as apposed to ending up in the position it is represented by after the movement phase(I hope that made sense). As for hitting stuff behind them, they haved thrust 3 so that seems like a decent air brake, for an ork anyway and who says grot bombs fly in a straight line, if I was flying a missile I'd be weeving all over the place just for the fun factor and maybe able to catch a glimpse of something behind me.

As a final note, if grot bombs could only hit targets in their front arc, we'd never see them in game as they'd just be a slightly different version of the 'rockits' carried by the planes themselves so why bother just cause they have better range...