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cuda1179
06-07-2007, 16:32
Well, there are rumors of the Dark Eldar codex getting redone. It is likely that Harleuins will be in the book. The question is, if Harlequins will be in the codex, who will take wytches? This is assuming wytches are the same as they are now and webway portals remain.
They only time I would take wytches would be if Harlequins can't use a webway portal, or if I am using an all Raider Rush army.

Bloodknight
06-07-2007, 16:40
Depends. At the current points costs you get almost 2 equipped wyches for one harlequin which has a merit in itself.

Bboy
06-07-2007, 17:01
What are the current rules for the Wytches? I know they got changed a while back but I can't rember how.

The Song of Spears
06-07-2007, 18:22
Well, there are rumors of the Dark Eldar codex getting redone. It is likely that Harleuins will be in the book.

I dunno where you heard this rumor, but it is in no way confirmed.

In fact due to Wyches being so good at CC, it is unlikely GW will put harles in the codex, possible, but IMO not likely.

If they did include both, then by best is people would take both as they are just different enough to be worthy.

Furtive Noise
06-07-2007, 18:29
A few possibilities-

Harlequins might a 0-1 choice.
Maybe they won't be able to take a raider.
Who knows how, or if, webway portals will work
Wyches could undergo changes that differentiate them more

Really, its just to early to tell. The more important part will be making all of the codex choices worthwhile, a lot a different fragile, fast stuff to balance.

Captain Micha
06-07-2007, 18:32
Well given that there is a Harlie position unfufilled by the Harlies in the dar dex, I think it is safe to assume that the de are the ones to get it. (Solitaire anyone?) We will see. Also wytches will probably still have a use, especially if their points value does not change.

Light of the Emperor
06-07-2007, 18:47
Wyches are combat monsters...
I wonder who would win between wyches vs harlequins.

LostTemplar
06-07-2007, 20:16
Wytches... Rending doesn't harm 4+ invulnerable saves, yay.

The Song of Spears
06-07-2007, 20:22
Well given that there is a Harlie position unfufilled by the Harlies in the dar dex, I think it is safe to assume that the de are the ones to get it. (Solitaire anyone?) We will see. Also wytches will probably still have a use, especially if their points value does not change.

I don't see how that is relevant... The Solitaire is the representation of Slaanesh the Dark Eldar do NOT worship slaanesh, if anything they fight in the name of Khaine and should get and Avatar.

Other than the Harles visiting the Dark Eldar, and traveling the web ways, i don't see any relation to the two. Nor does the codex mention anything more. Besides, why would you want a harlequin when you could get a wych? The Dark Eldar have all the cool wargear and even could have a type of shadow seer based on the ravager wargear that puts you 6" further from the enemy for shooting purposes.

Lord Malek The Red Knight
06-07-2007, 20:32
Well, there are rumors of the Dark Eldar codex getting redone. It is likely that Harleuins will be in the book. The question is, if Harlequins will be in the codex, who will take wytches?
what if Harlies are Elites and/or a 0-1 slot? Wyches may be taken as well, especially if they were Troops.

~ Tim

Cleutin
06-07-2007, 20:50
what if Harlies are Elites and/or a 0-1 slot? Wyches may be taken as well, especially if they were Troops.

~ Tim

#pictures an army of Wyches Harlies and Reavers # omg :eek:

infernus31
06-07-2007, 21:18
I dont think its unfeasable, both can work well, and unlike their craftworld cousins the Dark Eldar have no generic transport so the Harlie will be on foot, so I guess it would be slightly fairer.

As others have ssaid though, I wouldn't mind if Dark Eldar didn't get Harlies as they already have Wytches, though background wise it would be acceptable to have both in the list I guess.

Bloodknight
06-07-2007, 21:25
Wyches beat Harlies in CC reliably, possibly as the only unit in the game. They will most likely get the charge (so no FC for the harlies and only I6, meaning they strike simultaneously), steal the Harlies' 2nd weapon attack, will only get hit on 4+ and have a 4++ save. And you get 20 for 12 roughly.

Eldanar
07-07-2007, 04:12
I like the idea of harlequins as the link between Craftword and Dark Eldar.

I do not think they ought to be available for a Wyche army though. Just vanilla Dark Eldar.

Besides, they are one of the few units I have fought with harlequins that can actually outfight them (at least on occassion). I'd almost rather shoot them than try to eke out a charge. And it is almost always close as they are equally fast, depending on the vagaries of the fleet of foot roll.

toxic_wisdom
07-07-2007, 04:22
...Other than the Harles visiting the Dark Eldar, and traveling the web ways, i don't see any relation to the two. Nor does the codex mention anything more...

-- You might want to check Codex: Eldar as the Harlequin description even states they interact with the Dark Eldar.

Rypher
07-07-2007, 04:59
Harlequins have a slightly different role than Wytches. Both excel at CC, but Harlies can avoid being shot at before charging in.
Here is where the Wytches differ:
In a sample scenario of your 6 harlequins [1 DJ and 1 Shadowseer] versus my 10 Wytches [1 Succubus].
Assume your 6 Harlequins somehow assault my 10 wyches.
Assume your 6 have paid the upgrade to have your best CC weapon, the Kiss on your 4 troupers and the seer. The DJ has to give up his weapons for his nice gun.

Ok here we go.....

You assault in and all models are close enough to get their full attacks.

Troupers 2 base, +1 charge, +1 extra CCW = 4
Seer same as above
DJ 2 base +1 charge

So all told you have 5 guys with 4 attacks each that have rending so 20
Then you have the DJ with his 3 normal attacks
And thanks to those great dance moves you get, they are S4 and at I 7, pretty fast alright.

Now the bad news:
S3 base so I cut your WS in half, round up, so everyone is not WS3
Wyches remove the extra attacks from extra weapons, so your 20 attacks is now 15, plus the 3 from DJ so 18 total

you go first:

15/1 * 1/2 will give you 7.5 hits, on average 1 of those will be a rending, so you give 1 wound here 1
the other 6.5 round up to 7 hits are at S4 so wound on a 3+ so and I get a
7/1 * 2/3 so rounding up you 5 more wounds so out of your 15 rending attacks total I would say on the high
side you should count on 6 wounds. Of which I would save on 3 of them, so 3 dead wyches.

Now the DJ would get his 3 attacks

3/1*1/2*2/3*1/2 so he would kill .5 so at he very best the Math says you kill 4 wyches

Now my remaining 5 reg wyches and my succubus attack back, now the succubus as 2 attacks base but all of the other stats with the agoniser would be the same
as the normal wyches, therefore total attacks would be 13 attacks

13/1 * 2/3 * 1/2 * 2/3 which gives me just about 3 kills.

Now the fun part, if I don't break and run from loosing the assault, see you can run now, but I will get to you next turn, so you are really forced to stay in combat for my turn.

This time you are S3, and we go at the same time.

Now you have 1 troupes and the seer giving you 2 attacks each so 4 total, then the DJ giving you 2 more

4/1 * 1/2 which is only 2 hits, I can't see even hoping that one is a 6 here for you so no rending on average this time
so 2/1 hits * 1/2 for my save so you end up with 1 kill from the troupes and the seer
DJ gets his in
2/1 * 1/2 * 1/2 * 1/2 gives him 25% chance to kill someone while the 1 kill above really only gives you a total of 1 kill

My stats would be the exact same as above, since we are going at the same time this time so 3 kills again.

So after 2 assault phases giving your guys the benefit of doubt and allowing you to assault me the total is 6 dead Harlequins and 5 dead wyches.

Now here is the bad news for you. Not only did I round your stuff up all of the time, I did not factor in my drugs and I allowed you to assault me. See my drugs can
do anything from extra attacks, to rerolling, to extra S, to always going first. Any of those would have changed the outcome to be more in my favor. I also gave your models the kiss. It does you no real good against me, but you will need to have it for power amour foes, thus you will spend the points per model. Your total for those 6 models would be 168.

My wyches cost me 158.

So lets see what happens if I assault you with just goes first always drug ok?

1 base plus the charge plus the extra CCW so 3 attacks each, 4 for my succubus
so 27+4, 31 attacks
31/1 * 2/3 * 1/2 * 2/3 = 62/9 or just shy of 63/9 which would be all 6 of your guys before you even get to roll.

The only hope you ever have of winning that one is if you get to shoot me, which we all know is bad for wyches, or if you get to assault me while I am engaged with someone to help you, but I think the math is pretty clear that harlequins do not destroy wyches in CC.

Why do you think people hate DE?

toxic_wisdom
07-07-2007, 05:29
...My wyches cost me 139...

Nice recap but the cost of Wyches is incorrect: nine wyches and a succubus with agoniser ( all with wych weapons ) would be 158 points.

Something else to consider - if the Harlequins had a death jester ( rare to see ) and were able to charge, then the shrieker cannon would have been used first to reduce some of the unit ( unless fleet was used ).

Eldanar
07-07-2007, 05:32
You may want to re-read the entry on the wyche cc attack rules. IIRC, (I am on vacation and do not have access to the codex while away) only attacks directed against the wyches are at half WS. This does not effect the wyches attacks against the other models though, so they would still only hit 1/2 of the time with their attacks vs. the harlequins.

Your point still stands though, and this is why I stated I would almost rather shoot them.

Rypher
07-07-2007, 05:37
@toxic: Thanks, I meant to write 9, but I had 5 instead. :eyebrows:
I for one use a Death Jester. He works wonders [Opponent: Your HARLEQUINS are shooting me? I HAVE TO TAKE A PIN CHECK NOW????? HACKS!11!!ONE!!]
@Eldanar: Wyches die to shooting. Death Jester isn't there for show! :D

toxic_wisdom
07-07-2007, 05:56
...IIRC, (I am on vacation and do not have access to the codex while away) only attacks directed against the wyches are at half WS. This does not effect the wyches attacks against the other models though, so they would still only hit 1/2 of the time with their attacks vs. the harlequins...

-- FAQ clears this up ( hidden among multiple combat ): WS is cut in half when attacking AND being attacked.

-- Otherwise you're paying for an ineffective upgrade ( not counting the -1 ccw since that applies across the board ).

Enemy WS4 vs Wych WS4 without wych weapons
- enemy hits on fours and wyches hit on fours

Enemy WS4 ( WS2 ) attacking Wyches WS4 with weapons
- enemy hits on fours
Wyches with weapons attacking Enemy WS4 ( WS4 )
- wyches hit on fours

Hhmmm... why create an upgrade ( half ws ) that yields no result? Could have just left the single rule for wych weapons that negates the +1 for ccw.

Enemy WS4 ( WS2 ) attacking Wyches WS4 with weapons
- enemy hits on fours
Wyches with weapons attacking Enemy WS4 ( WS2 )
- wyches hit on threes

Okay... that makes more sense.

Eldanar
07-07-2007, 06:14
Does the FAQ not pre-date the v.2.0 Codex?

It is good to know though, as it seems like it is worded rather clunkily. Although to be pedantic for a moment, the FAQ is worded even more poorly than the relevant portion in the codex...

The_Outsider
07-07-2007, 09:10
The half WS only comes into effect really when you get the +1 WS drug.

Or if you are fighting something really really crap.

Cleutin
07-07-2007, 11:26
Obviously in that example of 10 Wyches and 6 Harlequins (and yes I admit the Harlequins would get kicked in) said Harlequins would of all shot the Wyches first who would of course be doomed.

It's easy to compare units but one thing about Eldar (of any type) is they ain't Space Marines, Eldar have to work together to be effective. Oh and before anyone bothers I know the Wyches could have Reaver support or something too but my point is usually no one would ever just assault 1 unit without doing other stuff (unless they're mad). ;)

Bloodknight
07-07-2007, 13:12
@Eladanar: no. Wych weapons worked totally different before codex 2.0. (you could take three different weapons on three sqaud members and each had a different effect. Hydra knives for example could create a succubus with up to 8 attacks).


@cleutin: itīs just a basic model which shows how two equally costed units fight each other. Shooting them up is most of the time not even possible because wyches always emerge from WWP and they get usually the charge and then they walk all over harlequins. Wyches > Harlequins and both > genestealers :)

toxic_wisdom
07-07-2007, 14:53
...Does the FAQ not pre-date the v.2.0 Codex?..

The DE FAQ brings the 2.0 Dex up to fourth edition standards.