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Everence
17-08-2005, 11:43
There might already be a thread about this but I really don't have the time to be looking. If a Casket of Souls got released on Lizardmen, do they still use their Coldblood rule (3D6) Ld or is it 2D6 like everyone else?

And also while I'm starting a new thread, what will regeneration do on a single wound unit? Like for example, in the case of Ariel's Blessing on a unit of Wild Riders for instance. Do they still get to try and regenerate after they have lost a wound or do they die without the chance?

Does this make sense?

Ordo Hereticus
17-08-2005, 11:56
They get to use their cold blooded ability against the casket, it's just explained as 2d6 in the caskets rules as it makes it easier for people to understand how it is done.

Regeneration works as a ward save, even for single wounded models, so they would get hit by something, take their normal save (if they get it depending on strength of what they got hit by) then take a 4+ regeneration/ward type thing.

Hit them with something flaming and they dont get it

Megilain
17-08-2005, 12:34
The casket does not cause a leadership test, you just deduct the units leadership value, which is not affected by the cold blooded rule, from the 2d6+2. So they use their leadership just like anyone else...

Alex
17-08-2005, 13:06
On the topic of regeneration, even though it effectively works as a Ward save, it is in fact none. This means you can have both a ward save and regeneration, like the VCs Carstein Ring, or in this case (I haven't read the WE armylist, but I guess that spell makes one unit being able to regenerate) you would first be able to make the normal armour save for the Wild Riders (5+, I think it is), then the Ward Save/Demonic type save on 5+, then finally the regenerate on 4+, making this unit now pretty hard to kill, even with cannonballs. ^^

neXus6
17-08-2005, 13:53
Yep, the roll is 2d6+2 - Ld number of wounds. For starters the TK player makes the roll so why would he use a Lizardman rule for his roll, on top of which it isn't a Ld test, it is an attack that is affected by Ld rather than Toughness.

As for wardsaves and regenerate. Yep that's how it works it's pretty nasty, though the only cannons I've ever used were in a dwarf army, I'll see your regen and raise you Rune of Burning. :p
But remember the difference is that they get wounds back at the end of the phase, important for combat, hard to kill yes but not as good as "having 2 ward saves" if you could.

Ordo Hereticus
17-08-2005, 15:40
Meh, suppose should of read the rule of the casket then :P

It effectively isn't a leadership test then, it is just rolling 2d6+2 and then using their leadership value.

Atrahasis
17-08-2005, 17:09
Note, however, that for some reason GW have seen fit to rule that Skaven get their Strength In Numbers against the Casket, despite the fact that they only get it for Leadership tests, and the Casket is not a Ld Test :rolleyes:

GranFarfar
17-08-2005, 17:17
I guess that is a little in the line with that troops get too use Generals ld, m@a use knights ld and so on.
If you consider this fair or not is a completely different matter.

This rule really isnīt clearly stated. In our group we have been arguing back and forth, playing it different everytime. Luckily we found the answear on GW:s
homepage.

Atrahasis
17-08-2005, 17:24
If you use the ruling on Strength In Numbers as a precedent, though, Flagellants are completely immune to the effects of the Casket, and Lizardmen should get their Cold Blooded advantage.

Ordo Hereticus
17-08-2005, 17:27
Why should they? As lizardmen dont role the dice anyway, the controller of the casket does, doesn't he?

Atrahasis
17-08-2005, 17:30
Why should they? As lizardmen dont role the dice anyway, the controller of the casket does, doesn't he?

I'm not saying they should, I'm saying that Skaven shouldn't get SiN.

Strength In Numbers applies only against Leadership Tests. However, GW have ruled that SiN applies to the Casket as well. If SiN applies, then why not everyone else's Ld-test-only advantages?
The ruling on SiN categorizes the Light of Death as a Leadership Test.

Izram
17-08-2005, 17:33
I thought SiN modified their Ld, not their test?
If it modifies their Ld, then it doesn't exactly catagorize light of death as an Ld test.

Atrahasis
17-08-2005, 17:45
SiN modifies their Ld for the purpose of any Ld test they have to take.

It doesn't modify it in any other instance.

TeddyC
17-08-2005, 18:01
Because its not a leadership test it is something that uses leadership value.... saurus dont get cold blooded rule.

Its like if they required to take a Stregth test.. you dont include weapon bonuses....

as for SiN.... i dont know exactly how that works so i wont comment.

Atrahasis
17-08-2005, 18:03
Because its not a leadership test it is something that uses leadership value.... saurus dont get cold blooded rule.

Precisely. Because it isn't a Leadership Test, Skaven shouldn't get their SiN. However, for some reason GW have seen fit to allow them the advantage.

GranFarfar
18-08-2005, 14:40
It isnīt a ld test, but it still uses you current ld. Otherwise you might argue that they shouldnīt get to use the generals ld or even a character leading the unit.

Atrahasis
18-08-2005, 15:06
It isnīt a ld test, but it still uses you current ld. Otherwise you might argue that they shouldnīt get to use the generals ld or even a character leading the unit.

Clanrats' current Ld is 5 at all times when they are not taking a Ld test (or more if a character is present). As Light of Death is not a Ld test, their current Ld is 5.

Reinnon
18-08-2005, 15:23
how would the cold blooded rule effect it anyway?

McMullet
18-08-2005, 15:48
Cold Blooded allows you to roll an extra D6 for Ld tests, then discard the highest result. In reality, this works out similar to +1 Ld.

(I did some maths on this once, in fact it is almost exactly the same as +1 Ld for Ld 6 and 7, a bit better than for higher Ld and a bit worse for lower Ld).

For the purposes of the casket, and also for the banshee wail from the VC book, there is no Ld test. The player rolls 2D6, adds 2 and compares it with the Ld value of the target. There's no way for Cold Blooded to be included.

TeddyC
18-08-2005, 17:48
Yea but thats what arth is saying...

i think SiN is where skaven get extra LD for ranks because their courage is boosted... but this.. as i understand is when they take a LD test.... i dont know if it actually raises their Leadership. The wording seems to imply it raises their LD value... and they do get the extra for Casket of Souls.

This is different because lizardmens extra leadership isnt because they are braver... its because they are "natually slower to react" to whats going on.

The way i understand it that the casket of souls works of will power to hold on to your soul..... saurus dont have more willpower to 'hold on' while the skaven do while they with their mates.


Im not saying i agree with it.... but looking at the fluff for the rules it does seem thats why cold blooded doesnt count while SiN does.

Joeslop
19-08-2005, 04:55
The Tomb Kings book says that you "Roll 2d6+2 and deduct that units leadership from the total."

This means that there is no rolling involved for Leadership. You roll 2d6+2, and subtract whatever that units leadership is.

For Lizardmen, that means their leadership value, whatever it is.

For Skaven, that means their leadership value, whatever it is.

Lizardmen leadership is the number that is on the sheet, the Lizardmen Leadership rule has to do with rolling their own leadership, therefore the Lizardmen Leadership rule does not apply.

The Skaven leadership rule is in effect whenever they are ranked up and have at least one full rank behind the first. Their leadership value is the number on the sheet plus the number of ranks up to +3. There is no rolling involved with this, therefore the Skaven Leadership rule applies.

EDIT: I looked more closely at the Skaven rule, and it says "All units in the Skaven army always (emphasis mine) add their current rank bonus to their Leadership value for any Leadership based test.

I would say that this is a Leadership based test, because the end result requires a Leadership score, even though the Skaven player doesn't roll anything.

mad dog
19-08-2005, 06:33
Its pretty clear really guys. Skaven base leadership is variable dependent on the number of viable ranks they have at the time.

Lizardman base leadership never changes regardless of how many dice they get to roll for their leadership tests.

As far as general go - any units leadership is that of its general if he is within 12".

Simple no ??

Atrahasis
19-08-2005, 08:38
EDIT: I looked more closely at the Skaven rule, and it says "All units in the Skaven army always (emphasis mine) add their current rank bonus to their Leadership value for any Leadership based test.

I would say that this is a Leadership based test, because the end result requires a Leadership score, even though the Skaven player doesn't roll anything.

Its not a test. Tests are clearly defined on page 40 of the rulebook. Tests are pass or fail, they do not have a numerical result.

Note that if this is a "Leadership based test" then Flagellants are immune to the Light of Death entirely, as they automatically pass any Ld based test.

Joeslop
19-08-2005, 08:47
Its not a test. Tests are clearly defined on page 40 of the rulebook. Tests are pass or fail, they do not have a numerical result.

Note that if this is a "Leadership based test" then Flagellants are immune to the Light of Death entirely, as they automatically pass any Ld based test.


Well then it's a Leadership based test insofar that it requires a Leadership value. There's nothing to "pass or fail", all it needs is the current value of the Leadership.

Doesn't really matter that much since GW has said that SiN qualifies.

Atrahasis
19-08-2005, 09:04
Well then it's a Leadership based test insofar that it requires a Leadership value. There's nothing to "pass or fail", all it needs is the current value of the Leadership.

Doesn't really matter that much since GW has said that SiN qualifies.

GW have also said that RiP spells always end if the caster dies or attempts another spell, and that to take a magical shield a model must ave the option for a mundane shield, both of which are completely unfounded in the rules.

There is no logical support from the written rule for Skaven to get their SiN and for Lizardmen (and Flagellants) not to get their bonusses/advantages.

Yanos
19-08-2005, 09:44
Eh?? Are the RiP provisos not repeated on every single Remains in Play spell??

As for the shield thing, it's just common sense really.

Logic is best not applied to the rules in these cases. We can all gripe or celebrate as we see fit, but once it's down in official FAQ/Q&A, that is fact until rescinded I'm afraid ;) .

Atrahasis
19-08-2005, 11:54
Eh?? Are the RiP provisos not repeated on every single Remains in Play spell??

Not every single one, no. Also, simply being repeated on every single RiP spell would not make it true should a RiP spell appear without that in its text.



As for the shield thing, it's just common sense really.Except that it contradicts the rulebook and every other Q&A on the subject.


Logic is best not applied to the rules in these cases. We can all gripe or celebrate as we see fit, but once it's down in official FAQ/Q&A, that is fact until rescinded I'm afraid ;) .

Where a contradiction exists, I'll favour the written rule over a Q&A any day.

Yanos
19-08-2005, 12:15
I'm not sure what the problem is; if GW have stated that all RiP spells follow the same rules regarding when they end, surely that simplifies the matter, rather than making it contentious?

I know the Q&A are hardly perfect, but what it sounds like you're saying is you'd ignore a more recent rules publication (or complication depending on how useful it was!) in favour of the original rulebook if there's a contradiction. Should there not be a bit more faith in those answering the Q&A?

I can't really argue the shield point any further as I don't know where this point is covered in the rulebook or any Q&A except this (http://uk.games-workshop.com/chronicles/faq/assets/warhammer-faq.pdf) one.

Atrahasis
19-08-2005, 14:39
I'm not sure what the problem is; if GW have stated that all RiP spells follow the same rules regarding when they end, surely that simplifies the matter, rather than making it contentious?Except that some RiP spells (even a couple in the BRB) do NOT carry those conditions, and a blanket Q&A changes the rules in ways that are probably not intended (in much the same way as AR's answer on MR in units).


I know the Q&A are hardly perfect, but what it sounds like you're saying is you'd ignore a more recent rules publication (or complication depending on how useful it was!) in favour of the original rulebook if there's a contradiction. Should there not be a bit more faith in those answering the Q&A?I wish I could put more faith in them, however it seems they generally answer with the first thing that comes into their heads with no regard to the implications and more subtle connotations of their answers.
Q&As are largely redundant in any case, as those questions that do not require an erratum are generally fairly obvious, and those that do need errata should be dealt with by errata and not by Q&A.


I can't really argue the shield point any further as I don't know where this point is covered in the rulebook or any Q&A except this (http://uk.games-workshop.com/chronicles/faq/assets/warhammer-faq.pdf) one.

There is a more recent Q&A which says that characters need a shield option to take any magical armour that includes a shield (the question addresses Beastmasters in particular and the answer erroneously generalises to all characters).

Also, the O&G Q&A in that same PDF says that despite having a shield option, Savage Orc characters can only take magic shields "as all other magic armour counts as armour, which they can't use". The O&G book says no such thing, even saying that if a Savage Orc wears more armour than a simple shield that his Tattoos will no longer work. Why explain what will happen if you take more armour if you're then going to later say that they cannot take it?

See my sig.

Joeslop
19-08-2005, 17:09
There is no logical support from the written rule for Skaven to get their SiN and for Lizardmen (and Flagellants) not to get their bonusses/advantages.

Why should Lizardmen get their special rule? The test involves no actual rolling of a Leadership on their part. Skaven don't need to roll their leadership to get the special rule.

Atrahasis
19-08-2005, 19:06
Why should Lizardmen get their special rule? The test involves no actual rolling of a Leadership on their part. Skaven don't need to roll their leadership to get the special rule.

I never said that Lizards should get their advantage, only that to give the advantage to Skaven and not to Lizards or Flagellants doesn't make any sense under the rules.

SiN applies only to Ld Based Tests. Light of Death is not a Ld based test. It is not a test of any sort. If Light of Death is a test and therefore triggers SiN, why is it not a test for Lizardmen or flagellants?

Mad Doc Grotsnik
19-08-2005, 22:27
The casket does not cause a leadership test, you just deduct the units leadership value, which is not affected by the cold blooded rule, from the 2d6+2. So they use their leadership just like anyone else...

Indeed. You roll up your score, then compare it to their Leadership. The difference they take in wounds.

Believe me, this is a HOOT against Stegadons. MMmmm....Ld5? Suit you sir!

Ganymede
20-08-2005, 04:44
SiN modifies their Ld for the purpose of any Ld test they have to take.

It doesn't modify it in any other instance.

well yeah, but such has been changed since the skaven book was made.

Atrahasis
27-08-2005, 16:46
well yeah, but such has been changed since the skaven book was made.

No, it has not been changed. GW have indicated their intent, but the rule remains.

2ndCompanyVeterans
28-08-2005, 09:51
I recon they allowed the rule to work because if they didn't all the weapon teams in the skaven army would die in 1 shot if it worked and a fat chunk of any skirmishers. I personally think setting presidents is bad as it leads to bad feeling against other armies.

However in this case I can understand why the exception has been made more than likely if they make a new skaven book it will adopt a new wording to make this clear the intent of the SIN rule woudl be that it would protect them but obviously the Khemri army did come after the Skaven so the wording was not able to take this into account.

Just to make this clear I understand their decision, I also understand why people don't like it and probably what is needed is a new light of death rule here. Undead get vaporised it especially zombies and all their fast units that leave the general behind not that VC need that much help anyhow.

Festus
28-08-2005, 12:01
Hi

The skirmishers will still die, regardless, as SiN doesn't affect them.

Greetings
Festus

2ndCompanyVeterans
28-08-2005, 13:19
Hi

The skirmishers will still die, regardless, as SiN doesn't affect them.

Greetings
Festus

Thats what I was illustrating so to loose all the skirmishers and weapon teams seems a bit much.

Sorry if my wording was a bit off.

marv335
28-08-2005, 13:23
there is a clear difference between the skaven rules and the lizardman rules.
the skaven have a variable leadership value depending on their unit size. if things arn't going well for them, they're more likely to run. this is in keeping with the skaven background and is well represented by the SiN rule.
the lizardman coldblooded rule is a completely different matter.
the skaven rule effects the leadership value.
the lizardman rule effects the leadership test.
see the difference?
this is why the CoS effects them differently.
it's not a leadership test.

Atrahasis
28-08-2005, 15:53
WORDS

Please read

a) The SiN rule
b) the thread

None of what you said makes any sense in light of the above.

Porksta
30-08-2005, 18:33
The Skaven book says that Skaven count up their rank bonus and add that to their Leadership Value for ANY LEADESHIP TEST.

Festus
30-08-2005, 20:28
Hi

No need to shout, is there?

Asks
Festus

Porksta
31-08-2005, 13:51
I was just trying to show some of these people what the rule is.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
31-08-2005, 20:29
The trouble is, you compare it to the UNITS Ld, not the individual models.

And, if I'm right in thinking, you can use the generals Ld for SoC, which means that Skaven do indeed get their boost. But as I said earlier, Lizardmen get jack out of their rule!

Porksta
31-08-2005, 21:05
The general's leadership has nothing to do with Skaven getting their rank bonus.

AngelofSorrow
02-09-2005, 05:56
They gave SiN to the skaven against the casket so they wouldnt be murdered horrible deaths in the 1st turn. Lizard men are a little better at with standin the caskets power regardless of what the written rule is that is y they gave them the SiN bonus against the casket end of story



Just because ur cold blooded doesnt mean some massive magical ball of souls will affect u any less.

But in the skavens case if there are more of its comrades around they become bolder and resist the magic better due to his boost in courage.

T10
02-09-2005, 07:31
EDIT: I looked more closely at the Skaven rule, and it says "All units in the Skaven army always (emphasis mine) add their current rank bonus to their Leadership value for any Leadership based test.

I would say that this is a Leadership based test, because the end result requires a Leadership score, even though the Skaven player doesn't roll anything.



I think that this is sufficient to support the GW ruling in the matter. After all, it does not break with the mechanics of the Casket of Souls rules.

Since it isn't really classified as a straight Leadership test, it is not a valid precedent for other Leadership test based immunities and the like.

-T10

Rioghan Murchadha
03-09-2005, 03:34
You know what is rather amazing.. or amusing about this whole thing? The fact that someone is arguing that a book printed aeons ago (in relative terms) should take precedent over newly published material, or attempts to bring the old material into alignment with the new.

The rule book was printed before any of the army books, and each individual army book has brought questions, and thorny issues about how certain army specific rules work in relation to the basic framework of rules laid out in the BRB.

Regardless of whether or not you like their rulings on the matter, the Q&As, when published in WD or chronicles become the current rules standard. If you want to play that SiN doesn't work against the casket in your house or local club, more power to ya, but if you don't want to admit there have been rules changes, clarifications, muddyings, etc. Then you best take your ball and go home.

Frankly, the reason that SiN works against the casket regardless of the definition of 'test' in the BRB, is because if it didn't, 1 poorly thought out unit would demolish an entire army in one round. This has already been stated however.

You will never see a game with what, 14 unique armies, with their own special rules, that doesn't involve some sort of conflict somewhere. What I don't understand is what makes some people post the same thing over and over again, as though repetition will work where reasoned discourse is absent.

GW makes the game, GW publishes the rules updates. You want to play at a GW store or tourney, you use their rules.. Deal with it.

R

Festus
03-09-2005, 10:13
Hi

Who can please show me the *official* errata that SiN is in effect against the spell of the Casket of Souls?

I don't seem to be able to find it in either the Errata nor the Q&A published on GWs homepage.

AFAIK, the Skaven have to live with dieing at simply 2D6+2-Ld without any boost from the SiN rule.

Greetings
Festus

wolfatbar
04-01-2006, 00:56
Hi

Who can please show me the *official* errata that SiN is in effect against the spell of the Casket of Souls?

I don't seem to be able to find it in either the Errata nor the Q&A published on GWs homepage.

AFAIK, the Skaven have to live with dieing at simply 2D6+2-Ld without any boost from the SiN rule.

Greetings
Festus

It's here:

http://uk.games-workshop.com/skaven/alessio-interview/3/

It's hard to find because it's not a "FAQ" or "Q&A", it's called "interview with Alessio Cavatore".

In it you can see that the Banshee howl invokes a "leadership-based test" and that SiN applies. Same thing for the casket...

This is consistent with the ruling (in Warhammer-Faq pdf) that the general's leadership also applies against the casket (in the BrB a general's leadership can be used for "leadership-based tests"; exactly the same wording as SiN).

It's obviously splitting hairs, but GW has made a distinction between pure "leadership tests" and other "leadership-based tests".

At least it was Alessio who made the ruling. He wrote both the Skaven book AND and Vampire Counts book, so if anyone was to know was his intent was with the rules it would have to be him!

archonbrujah
04-01-2006, 01:24
Wouldn't it have made some sense for the Casket to use the same rules as the Banshee Howl? Except that would mean almost every army would have at least 1 unit that's immune, and would require something besides a good roll + 2 to take out.

I've seen this debate come up a few times, if I recall correctly it always comes down to GW said SiN applies, but made no mention of any other special LD rule.

Not a Skaven player, but from my experiance with playing against Skaven they need all the help they can get, low Ld armies get murdered by things like the Casket.

Basically, not to insult any Undead players out there, but GW needs to put more thought into their 2 Undead armies. Every TK player takes the CoS that I've seen, then pitches a fit when you either don't face the damn thing or dispel it. Every VC player around here packs the Banshee run in circles and howl while the necro summons more skele's for a flank charge. Maybe it's just local, but I just don't see the variety in Undead armies that other armies seem to use.

Is this common elsewhere, or is the CoS/Banshee a local phenomenon?

Archonbrujah

Mad Makz
04-01-2006, 01:37
I think that's definitely a local phenomenon, although I think the Casket is a good choice in most TK's army simply because it is a really cool model and it has good (but not usually overpowering) rules. Still, it's a fairly fragile points sink.

As for the Skaven Strength in Numbers and 'Leadership based test' is vague at best, and as usual for GW indicates and INTENTION, rather than a clear definition.

I have no problem with GW clarifying that definition to include Skaven based on the 'Leadership based test' statement, because the 'based test' portion of the statement makes it not contradictory (just vague).

If it just said Leadership Test, then GW would be breaking there own rules. (Not that I don't expect them to do that ANYWAY, but in this case I don't think the claim they are is valid. The claim the GW is hopeless at any form of semantics would be true. :) )

Gabacho Mk.II
04-01-2006, 04:37
This whole thread is yet another reason for GW to finally fix the Skaven armybook in 7th edition.

Glaring problems with the rules, overly powerful unit types and machines, and Ld that is fitting for an elite army rather than a horde army.


Let's just pray that GW gets it right in 7th...

Flypaper
04-01-2006, 04:58
Every TK player takes the CoS that I've seen, then pitches a fit when you either don't face the damn thing or dispel it.
Another vote for "local phenomenom" here - I've never seen one. As far as I can make out, there's no real reason to take one over another catapult unless you're facing very specific juicy targets...

DarkstarSabre
04-01-2006, 09:28
Well, this is a messed up rules query...

Simply put folks- SiN, Coldblooded and Immunity to Ld tests should NOT count against the CoS. If Skaven are getting SiN then Flagellents should by that point be immune and Cold Blooded would work for the CoS as 3d6, take the lowest 2 +2.

SiN modifies Skaven LD for the purpose of Ld tests. The CoS is not a Ld test. If anything it goes on the base Ld of the trooper showing the individual troopers strength and resolve. The individual Skaven, for the purposes of this is still a Ld poo Skaven, no matter how many mates he has.

Wickerman71
04-01-2006, 13:06
This whole thread is yet another reason for GW to finally fix the Skaven armybook in 7th edition.

Not in this regard though; It's not just "SIN" but the Generals Leadership as well which affects all armies. It would seem to be from the ruling that GW considers these as static modifiers to troop LD. I know this is not what is printed in BRB or Skaven AB but it is what the Ruling seems to suggest.

Ganymede
04-01-2006, 16:44
Well, this is a messed up rules query...

Simply put folks- SiN, Coldblooded and Immunity to Ld tests should NOT count against the CoS. If Skaven are getting SiN then Flagellents should by that point be immune and Cold Blooded would work for the CoS as 3d6, take the lowest 2 +2.

SiN modifies Skaven LD for the purpose of Ld tests. The CoS is not a Ld test. If anything it goes on the base Ld of the trooper showing the individual troopers strength and resolve. The individual Skaven, for the purposes of this is still a Ld poo Skaven, no matter how many mates he has.

I don't get it. Are you in denial as to how the rules work, or are you just really mad that the rules don't work in the way you hope for them to?

Atrahasis
04-01-2006, 16:46
I don't get it. Are you in denial as to how the rules work, or are you just really mad that the rules don't work in the way you hope for them to?

The written rule does not allow SiN against the Casket.
The Q&A does.

The truth is that the Q&A is in denial as to how the rules work.

wolfatbar
04-01-2006, 21:51
This whole thread is yet another reason for GW to finally fix the Skaven armybook in 7th edition.

Glaring problems with the rules, overly powerful unit types and machines, and Ld that is fitting for an elite army rather than a horde army.


Let's just pray that GW gets it right in 7th...

The only thing wrong with the skaven army book is that some skaven players take advantage of weapon teams being core. That's it.

EVERY new army book brings with it a few rules that need clarification.

In this case, the SiN rule, like the general's leadership rule, should simply be treated as a static/permanent boost to a unit's leadership (at least until the ranks are broken...).

EVERY army has powerful unit types. Skaven have no fast cav, nothing that flies, no heavy cav (nothing with AS better than 3+), the worst Ogre unit in the game for it's points, no chariot [unless you count screaming bell], and no mounts for their heroes [once again not including screaming bell].

Their weapon teams can be taken out with a headbutt, or any other no LOS spell, which is likely to cause Jezzails to pack it for the hills, too. And the WLC needs to run if it's charged by a single naked goblin (or gnoblar, or slave...).
Their leadership shrinks as soon as their units fall to less than 16 models (more if they're deployed 5 or more wide). What elite unit suffers than problem?
And if they're flanked they suffer a MINUS 6 to combat resolution when, not if, they take a break test. (-3 to CR for loss of ranks, and further -3 to break test for loss of ld.) Away from the general they'll need a FIVE to rally, too. What elite unit needs a 5 to rally?

No, there's nothing wrong with skaven army book. Like any army, it has weakenesses that can be exploited by en enemy general...

Ganymede
04-01-2006, 23:58
The written rule does not allow SiN against the Casket.
The Q&A does.

The truth is that the Q&A is in denial as to how the rules work.

In what alternate universe does this matter?

archonbrujah
05-01-2006, 00:41
Sadly, it matters in the one where a fairly obscure Q & A, not even an FAQ or Chronicles, addresses it.

If it's an "official" clarification, it belongs in a FAQ, not an interview.

Archonbrujah

Festus
05-01-2006, 09:02
Helloooo!

There is no Q&A up to date which allows the Skaven to use SiN AFAIK.
All we have is only an interview which is neither in any way official or esay to access. The only thing going for it, is that it is by ACavatore...

As far as the rules stand, Skaven do not benefit from SiN.

But feel free to follow any and all *sketchy thoughts*, which maybe even landed on the cutting room floor during playtesting (and ACavatore misremembering them).

Greetings
Festus

Festus
05-01-2006, 09:09
Hi

The only thing wrong with the skaven army book is that some skaven players take advantage of weapon teams being core. That's it.

Their leadership shrinks as soon as their units fall to less than 16 models (more if they're deployed 5 or more wide). What elite unit suffers than problem?
And if they're flanked they suffer a MINUS 6 to combat resolution when, not if, they take a break test. (-3 to CR for loss of ranks, and further -3 to break test for loss of ld.) Away from the general they'll need a FIVE to rally, too. What elite unit needs a 5 to rally?

No, there's nothing wrong with skaven army book. Like any army, it has weakenesses that can be exploited by en enemy general...
Which kind of weird calculation is this?

A "MINUS 6" to combat result?

You maybe even could have had a point here, if Skaven were Elite Infantry - which they are not: They are dirt cheap and happen to have a Bonus to their Ld if in masses. And masses is exactly what you buy of if you happen to have dirt cheap troops :rolleyes:

Face it, tiger: SiN as a permanent Ld-Boost is *stoopid* IMNSHO.

Festus

Ganymede
05-01-2006, 17:48
All I know is that a grand total of two people have told me that SiN does not work for banshee screams. What does that mean? Well, whenever their clanrat's faces get melted off, they can console themselves with the fact that they are 'correct'.

Vague rules are vagule rules, we all cope in our own unique ways. Just imagine how some people feel when they find a contradiction in the Bible.

Atrahasis
05-01-2006, 17:50
All I know is that a grand total of two people have told me that SiN does not work for banshee screams.The rules are not governed by consensus.


Vague rules are vagule rules,

There is nothing vague here - SiN specifically states that it works only for Leadership tests. Banshee Howl and Light of Death are not Leadership tests.

Ganymede
05-01-2006, 17:59
The rules are very much governed by consensus. The consent of the two people playing. You may not consent to the way some people play, but unless you are one of the two people putting models in the deployment zone, i could give a rat's behind.

And if the skaven book actually said 'leadership tests' as you so vehemently claim, then you would be right. But they didn't. Instead, the author decided to insert an incredibly vague term in there: 'leadership based tests'.

We could assume that alessio meant 'leadership tests'.

We could gather what he meant by using the propper english meaning of 'leadership based tests'.

We could assume that because he didn't say 'leadership tests', that he didn't mean 'leadership tests'.

We could assume a lot of things, that's what makes it vague.

Atrahasis
05-01-2006, 18:02
If the Casket/Howl is a Ld based test, then Flagellants are completely immune.

Also, "test" has an accepted meaning in Warhammer, defined on page 39 of the rulebook. Tests in Warhammer result in success or failure, and not "3 wounds".

Festus
05-01-2006, 19:00
Hi

The rules are very much governed by consensus. The consent of the two people playing. You may not consent to the way some people play, but unless you are one of the two people putting models in the deployment zone, i could give a rat's behind.
Oh, how right you are!

Indeed, you and your mate across the table can even shove up the miniatures bought from GW into some and any orifice the human body might posess...

...and believe me, nobody would *give a rat's behind* either (apart from the surgeon removing this stuff):rolleyes:

But this is not the point.

Point is, as the rules stand, SiN does not help Skaven with the Banshee's howl nor the Casket.

You might be right with the Leadership-based test. But it is still the undead player doing the test, and not the Skaven. And SiN does not give a flat bonus to the Skaven's Ld stat.

Agreed?

Or will my CD's get to roll 3 dice as well if I play against Lizzies?

Festus

Atrahasis
05-01-2006, 19:11
The rules are very much governed by consensus. The consent of the two people playing. You may not consent to the way some people play, but unless you are one of the two people putting models in the deployment zone, i could give a rat's behind.

But that consensus creates a temporary accord that exists only for that game - the consensus does not become the all-governing rule.

If you faced me, or if you were in a tournament environment, you could not expect your liberties with the rules to be honoured.

wolfatbar
05-01-2006, 19:29
But that consensus creates a temporary accord that exists only for that game - the consensus does not become the all-governing rule.

If you faced me, or if you were in a tournament environment, you could not expect your liberties with the rules to be honoured.

That's exactly how I feel about it. I would expect someone with the Casket to follow GW's rulings on the issue and use SiN modified leadership.

We can ignore the Banshee issue in the interview and look just at the BrB and the Tomb Kings' own Faq. The logic is simple to follow:

1- A general's leadership can be used to modify a leadership value for "leadership-based tests" (see BrB)
2- A general's leadership can be used to modify a leadership value against the Casket. (warhammer-faq)
3- SiN can be used to modify a leadership value for "leadership-based tests" (see Skaven)

Therefore SiN can be used to modify a leadership value against the casket.

Festus: my calculation is as follows:

A fully ranked clanrat unit that outnumbers opponent (and has a standard), charged in the front, starts with +5 CR and would test on ld 8 less whatever they lose combat by. [assuming no general nearby]

That same fully ranked clanrat unit that outnumbers opponent (and has a standard), charged in the flank, starts with +2 CR and would test on ld 5 less whatever they lose combat by (which would actually be FOUR worse than they would lose to the frontal charge because of the flank bonus.

So, including the flank bonus, my calculation actually should have been a difference of 7, not 6, as compared to being charged in the front.

My point is that they are NOT elite infantry, by any stretch of the imagination; if you hit them in the flank they're more likely to break and run than any other infantry in the game (including regular gobbo's!- ld 6). They're also the most likely to keep running.

Ganymede
05-01-2006, 19:38
But this is not the point.

Point is, as the rules stand, SiN does not help Skaven with the Banshee's howl nor the Casket.


Weird, in every single game I have played in which I have either helmed skaven, or my opponent was a skaven player, the SiN bonus did, in fact, apply to the banshee's scream and to the casket of souls.

but that's not the point either.

My point is, 'leadership based tests' is a term that is a bit more vague than you give credit. No matter what 'leadership based tests' means, it couldn't possibly mean the exact same thing as 'leadership tests', or else the author would have used that already established term. Though it is possible that he did make a mistake when writing this rule, what's to stop us from assuming that anything else wasn't a mistake?

To summarise, the term 'leadership based test' is pretty vague considering that if the author intended it to mean 'leadership test', he could have just said that.

Atrahasis
05-01-2006, 19:40
1- A general's leadership can be used to modify a leadership value for "leadership-based tests" (see BrB)
2- A general's leadership can be used to modify a leadership value against the Casket. (warhammer-faq)
3- SiN can be used to modify a leadership value for "leadership-based tests" (see Skaven)Your logic is flawed. Games Workshop changed how General's Ld works by way of a Q&A. Nothing more can be drawn from that other than they are sloppy at updating rules.

If we start saying "They made a mistake here, they obviously meant this" every time two problems appear similar, the whole ruleset will fall apart.

Ganymede
05-01-2006, 19:40
1- A general's leadership can be used to modify a leadership value for "leadership-based tests" (see BrB)
2- A general's leadership can be used to modify a leadership value against the Casket. (warhammer-faq)
3- SiN can be used to modify a leadership value for "leadership-based tests" (see Skaven)

Therefore SiN can be used to modify a leadership value against the casket.



barring any incomplete paraphrasing, this logical statement is pretty damn solid.

Ganymede
05-01-2006, 19:45
Your logic is flawed. Games Workshop changed how General's Ld works by way of a Q&A. Nothing more can be drawn from that other than they are sloppy at updating rules.

If we start saying "They made a mistake here, they obviously meant this" every time two problems appear similar, the whole ruleset will fall apart.

Since when does the intent of a Q+A matter more than the contents? Anyways, if the rule was actually changed, it would have been in an eratta, strictly speaking, of course.

And for the record, as far as that statements logical underpinnings go, wolfbatbar's statement was completely logical.

Atrahasis
05-01-2006, 19:51
Since when does the intent of a Q+A matter more than the contents? Anyways, if the rule was actually changed, it would have been in an eratta, strictly speaking, of course.It doesn't. However, the Q&A addresses General's Leadership, not Strength In Numbers. We cannot extrapolate anything about SiN from a Q&A that concerns the General's Ld.


And for the record, as far as that statements logical underpinnings go, wolfbatbar's statement was completely logical.No, it isn't.

Consider:

Andrea give Charlie a red apple
Bob gave Charlie a red apple

We later discover that the apple Bob gave was in fact green (Bob misinformed us as to the colour at first).
By Wolfbatbar's logic, Andrea's apple magically changes colour. This makes no logical sense.
We cannot assume (and that's what it would be, an assumption, something with no logical base) that because Bob was mistaken that Andrea was also.

Festus
05-01-2006, 19:52
Hi

My point is, 'leadership based tests' is a term that is a bit more vague than you give credit. No matter what 'leadership based tests' means, it couldn't possibly mean the exact same thing as 'leadership tests', or else the author would have used that already established term.
Even if I give you the distinction between Leadership test and Leadership based test (whch I do), the thing still is that the Skaven are not testing at all. Heck, the Skaven player doesn't even roll a single die.

It is all the Undead player's thing: He rolls 2D6, adds 2, and subtracts the oponent's Ld from the score. Easy, innit?

The SiN doesn't provide Skaven with a blanket Bonus to their Leadership, it provides them a Bonus to their Leadership-based tests. Their Ld still is the same.
This is different from the General's Ld Bonus, where a unit may always *use the General's Ld* if within 12". The General does not modify anything at all.
The Skaven use their *own* Ld-Stat, or the General's stat and modify this with a Bonus, which doesn't apply for the oponent.

Greetings
Festus

Ganymede
05-01-2006, 19:56
"leadership based tests" as well as the rest of the skaven special rule make absolutely no distinction as to who takes the test though.

I realise it isn't a blanket leadership bonus, otherwise a priest of ulric wouldn't hate skaven untill their rank bonus was negated.

Atrahasis
05-01-2006, 19:56
"leadership based tests" as well as the rest of the skaven special rule make absolutely no distinction as to who takes the test though.

Roll 2D6+2 and subtract the leadership of the target is not a test.

Festus
05-01-2006, 20:00
Hi

"leadership based tests" as well as the rest of the skaven special rule make absolutely no distinction as to who takes the test though.
As Atrahasis points out, no *test* is ever made: The undead player rolls two dice (nothing of Ld here!), he arrives at a number between 2 and 12. Then - and only then - does he add 2 and subtracts the Ld (the stat) of the enemy unit.

The Ld of the Skaven unit is the highest Ld stat of its members, no rank bonus is calculated for that.

Greetings
festus

Ganymede
05-01-2006, 20:05
It doesn't. However, the Q&A addresses General's Leadership, not Strength In Numbers. We cannot extrapolate anything about SiN from a Q&A that concerns the General's Ld.

No, it isn't.

Consider:

Andrea give Charlie a red apple
Bob gave Charlie a red apple

We later discover that the apple Bob gave was in fact green (Bob misinformed us as to the colour at first).
By Wolfbatbar's logic, Andrea's apple magically changes colour. This makes no logical sense.
We cannot assume (and that's what it would be, an assumption, something with no logical base) that because Bob was mistaken that Andrea was also.

Let me simplify it for you. As we all know, the general's leadership is applied for all leadership based tests. Because of a clarification in a recent Q+A, we know for sure that the general's leadership is applied to the casket of souls.

Here's the complete logical statement.

If the general's leadership is applied to all leadership based tests, and the general's leadership is applied to the casket of souls, then the casket of souls is a leadership based test.

Now...

Since SiN is applied to all leadership based tests, and the casket of souls produces a leadership based test, then SiN is applied to the casket of souls.

Seems straightforward to me. Could you show me how come youdon'tarrive at the exact same conclusion when we are presented with the exact same set of information? If you can, please build your statement inthe same format I did mine in.

Ganymede
05-01-2006, 20:06
Hi

As Atrahasis points out, no *test* is ever made: The undead player rolls two dice (nothing of Ld here!), he arrives at a number between 2 and 12. Then - and only then - does he add 2 and subtracts the Ld (the stat) of the enemy unit.

The Ld of the Skaven unit is the highest Ld stat of its members, no rank bonus is calculated for that.

Greetings
festus

But, the general's leadership is applied for leadership based tests exclusively.

Atrahasis
05-01-2006, 20:10
If the general's leadership is applied to all leadership based tests, and the general's leadership is applied to the casket of souls, then the casket of souls is a leadership based test.

No. Your logic is flawed. All that can be distilled from this statement is that the General's Ld applies for the Casket of Souls.

Anything else overstretches the limits of the Q&A. You are assuming because the rules for General's Leadership did not cover all the eventualities that were intended that the rules for SiN are also flawed. There is no basis for this assumption.

wolfatbar
05-01-2006, 20:12
Hi

This is different from the General's Ld Bonus, where a unit may always *use the General's Ld* if within 12". The General does not modify anything at all.
The Skaven use their *own* Ld-Stat, or the General's stat and modify this with a Bonus, which doesn't apply for the oponent.

Greetings
Festus

Why don't you quote the rest of the sentence:

"...use the general's leadership value instead of its own when making a leadership-based test" (emphasis added).

As far as the apples go, we don't later discover that "bob's apple is green". What we discover (by FAQ) is that "apples are green".
The logic holds.

Festus
05-01-2006, 20:12
Hi

If the general's leadership is applied to all leadership based tests, and the general's leadership is applied to the casket of souls, then the casket of souls is a leadership based test.
This is fatally flawed still, even if you do not use the term *to modify* anymore:

The General's Ld is not applied to any test at all, but the General's Ld is used by the unit, as according to the main rules.
This Ld is *always* used by the unit if it is A) higher than their own, and B) the General is within 12".

The SiN modifier is applied to any Ld-Based test. But the Casket is not forcing a test. Nor does the Banshee...

Festus

Ganymede
05-01-2006, 20:13
No. Your logic is flawed. All that can be distilled from this statement is that the General's Ld applies for the Casket of Souls.

That's just 'question begging' man. You can't just make assertions like that without backing them upwith some sort of logical reasoning or evidence.

Secondly...

All I am assuming are two things. I'm assuming that the general's leadership applies to all leadership based tests, and that the general's leadership is applied to the casketof souls. That's all i am assuming... do you disagree with those two assumptions?

Ganymede
05-01-2006, 20:15
Hi

This is fatally flawed still, even if you do not use the term *to modify* anymore:

The General's Ld is not applied to any test at all, but the General's Ld is used by the unit, as according to the main rules.
This Ld is *always* used by the unit if it is A) higher than their own, and B) the General is within 12".

The SiN modifier is applied to any Ld-Based test. But the Casket is not forcing a test. Nor does the Banshee...

Festus

But yet again I repeat myself. The general's leadership does indeed apply against the casket of souls, and the general's leadership applies when taking any leadership-based test.

Therefore... must I really repeat it again?

If the casket of souls wasn't some sort of leadership based test, then the general's leadership wouldn't apply. But since the general's leadership does apply, and it only applies to leadership based tests...

wolfatbar
05-01-2006, 20:16
Hi


The General's Ld is not applied to any test at all, but the General's Ld is used by the unit, as according to the main rules.
This Ld is *always* used by the unit if it is A) higher than their own, and B) the General is within 12".


Festus

No it's not! Read the rest of the sentence in the BrB that's already been partially quoted...

As far as I'm concerned, the logic is simple to follow and doesn't even leave room for debate.

Further, when the guy that WROTE THE RULES for both banshee's AND SiN says that SiN applies, well...........

end of debate, no?

Atrahasis
05-01-2006, 20:22
The only reason that the General's Ld applies to the Casket is that the Q&A changes how the General's Ld works - by the rulebook, it applies for tests (and only tests), after the Q&A, the units Leadership is replaced completely for all purposes.

This does not affect SiN in any way.

Festus
05-01-2006, 20:31
Hi

Obviously we have to agree to disagree.

Ganymede and wolfatbar - yay
vs.
Atrahsis and Festus - nay

Well, the rules seem to be pretty clear, the interpretation obviously isn't. So we better let it rest here.

Goodbye
Festus

wolfatbar
05-01-2006, 20:34
Good call, Festus, good call.

The important thing (and the good news) is that my tomb kings opponent has agreed to allow SiN.
The bad news is that he's bought another SSC ! :(

Ganymede
05-01-2006, 20:41
The only reason that the General's Ld applies to the Casket is that the Q&A changes how the General's Ld works - by the rulebook, it applies for tests (and only tests), after the Q&A, the units Leadership is replaced completely for all purposes.

This does not affect SiN in any way.

In the lack of any evidence here, I'd call this your own personal opinion on how the Q+A interacts with the rulebook.

But in either case, lets call it a draw.

And wolfatbar, just hope that the casket rolls double ones and miscasts, then you're home free. Wait a second.... no!