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ObiWan
17-08-2005, 14:57
Ok, here is the situation, my Blood Dragon Count charges an elf dragon prince unit, the unit still has a champion but no characters, since I have to challenge I challenge the champion of the unit, and being the champion, extra wounds are transferred over to the unit, am I right or wrong? why? (by why I mean if you can post reference to rules I would really appreciate it) :)

WLBjork
17-08-2005, 15:00
Wrong.

First of all, you only challenge the unit, not a specific character within the unit. Edit: Oops - missed that there is only the Champ. there, so therefore the Champ. would either accept or be retired to the rear of the unit.

Secondly, Wounds never lap over from a challenge, you only score overkill.

Naghaz
17-08-2005, 15:02
Page 99 I believe mate, all you need to know on Challanges and since you are in fact a Blood Dragon General, its definitely important you learn them well.

Basically wounds in excess of those needed to slay the champion now apply towards combat resolution ie: overkill

ObiWan
17-08-2005, 15:05
Wrong.

First of all, you only challenge the unit, not a specific character within the unit. Edit: Oops - missed that there is only the Champ. there, so therefore the Champ. would either accept or be retired to the rear of the unit.

Ok so maybe I was not clear, only the champion is in the unit and there are no more characters, the Elf accepts the challenge with the champion



Secondly, Wounds never lap over from a challenge, you only score overkill.

That I know, but being the champion instead of a character don't they lap to the unit?

Another thing, if I score, say, 3 wounds, one of them bieng a Killing Blow, does he get to try and save the other 2 wounds anyway?

Yanos
17-08-2005, 15:23
Yes he does. It's part of the Overkill thing. Imagine if you'd not gotten that Killing Blow: he's only got one wound, but he gets to roll to save all three inflicted. the same applies in the case you've described. If he fails to save them (despite the fact he's down from the Killing Blow!), they'll count towards the Combat Res, for a total of +3, even though your General's only inflicted 1 wound.

When it comes to challenges, nothing'll carry over onto the rest of the unit, be it against a Champion or a Character. I think I see where you're coming from, where non-Challenge wounds used to get carried over onto the unit once you'd offed the Champ. I think I'm right in saying that's no longer the case, and attacks against the Champ stay against the Champ, so you can only do one wound even if you attack him with three models :eyebrows: .

Izram
17-08-2005, 16:08
Oh, and if you want to be an unfluffy player, but avoid this mess, you could always charge the unit and not contact the champion. the champion wont be in a fighting position and won't be able to accept, allowing you to kill models instead of phantom wounds.

Its not actually a suggestion; really just a reminder that he could not accept the challenge if his champion was not fighting.

ObiWan
17-08-2005, 16:19
Thanks a lot for the answers! I am a bit rusty in my Fantasy :p

gortexgunnerson
17-08-2005, 17:41
Yer champions are still characters and must be attacked separatly. i.e. you say 2 against the unit, 2 against the champion in a non challenge situation. Also even if you kill enough models to take out the first rank the champion still gets to fight back unless you have choosen to attack him and killed him

Atrahasis
17-08-2005, 17:47
Yer champions are still characters

Nope. Champions are most definitely NOT characters. They can issue and accept challenges, but that's about as far as it goes.


Also even if you kill enough models to take out the first rank the champion still gets to fight back unless you have choosen to attack him and killed himUnless of course the unit only had one rank.

TeddyC
17-08-2005, 17:56
Look at it this way... if there was a second character i nthere... lets say a hero.... both are eligible to accept the challenge. He choses to accept with the champ... it is stil la challenge.... so the wound will count as overkill. It will still follow all normal challenge rules.

And he will still get to save non killing blow wounds.

Sinew
18-08-2005, 09:10
As far as I am aware a unit champion has to attacked separately in close combat in order to be killed. Even if the enemy score excess wounds on the unit, to the point where they have wiped out all normal models the champion survives. Conversely wounds on the champion are not carried over into the unit, in normal combat excess wounds are lost, in challanges they become an overkill bonus of +1 for each wound scored in excess of tha champion's wounds.

Therefore in your example your blood dragon character might well rack up +6 combat res (1 for the champion's wound and a potential +5 for further wounds inflicted if you had that many attacks) but could never hurt the unit. You do get to roll all your attacks irrespective of the fact that the champion may well be dead by the time the first one has fallen, and you can even attack a (very) dead champion with your steed/mount should you have one in order to try to get the maximum overkill.

Atrahasis
18-08-2005, 09:48
Even if the enemy score excess wounds on the unit, to the point where they have wiped out all normal models the champion survives.

Nope. If enough wounds are dealt to the unit to wipe out every model including the champion, then the champion dies. Wounds can pass from the unit to the champ, but not the other way round. The only way he could survive is if he is in a challenge, and his opponent doesn't kill him.

samw
20-08-2005, 22:37
I'm pretty sure Sinew is correct. This is mainly because several unit champions have quite different stats to their unit comrades, higher WS being quite common. Hence it is perfectly possible for a different "to-hit" roll to be required to hit the unit champuon than the unit proper. It is therefore unfair to demand your opponent remove the champion, when you may very well not have rolled high enough to hit, let alone wound him!

This rule is of MASSIVE importance when fighting HE elites (whos champs can take magic items) and slayers (who can have multiple 'champion' models in the unit).

The only way to fell a unit champion is to target him specifically, anything else is just unfair.

Izram
20-08-2005, 23:00
Wounds can pass from the unit to the champ, but not the other way round.

Has Pg 109 been changed? "If killed in close combat, any excess wounds caused against them are carried over to normal rank-and-file models in the unit."

And as for needing to target the champ to kill him, its simply not true. "they are effectivly another model in the unit with enhanced characteristics". (109)

It says nowhere that you must allocate to kill them, but it does say they act as a rank and filer, so why would you need to?


anything else is just unfair.
Unfair to whom?

Naghaz
21-08-2005, 00:08
Unit champions are not heros, there is no need to target them specificaly to kill them, but the option is there (unlike say a standard bearer or a musician). Basically they are just a unit upgrade that adds an additional attack or in rare cases a magic items or stat increase. Regardless they are still treated as just another member of the unit except that they can accept challanges and use the "Look out Sir!" rule.

samw
21-08-2005, 01:25
I say it's unfair because you may kill a model more easily than you should have considering its characteristics.

Let me just set out the ramifications of what you're saying.

For example, a unit of Knights errant (WS3) with a Grail Knight champion (WS5) (as allowed in the SoC list) is charged by a normal ranked up unit of WS4 troops. On rolling to hit they roll a 1, a 2 and three threes. Now by your logic if all these hits wound and I fail my resultant armour saves (unlikely but possible) my Grail Knight champion is dead. This is despite the fact the enemy should not even have hit him! This is what I mean by unfair.

Even more pronounced is the case of Dwarf Slayers, where multiple trollslayers may be upgraded. Indeed the majority, or even the entirety of the front rank could be WS5 giantslayers. So if I charge a unit of goblins at them, and we don't dictate that attacks must be allocated, am I at 4's or 5's to hit? And then which models are removed?

Maybe it's just me but it seems logical and simple that if you're going to target anything other than normal rank and file you must say so and allocate your attacks, because it makes a difference. Everyone I know plays this rule and no-one batted an eye at the last tournament I went to where it came up more than once. Yes I know that just because many people believe the wrong thing that doesn't make it true but it seems odd no-one would have piped up about it. The wording on PG 109 I felt was just to ram home to new players that champions, however fancy the name were not characters for purposes of slots, MI etc.

Izram
21-08-2005, 02:43
The book holds rules to the game, it is not a reference for new players.

I asked, "unfair to whom" because rule mechanics have nothing to do with fairness. Its a rule system and you play it. No one is forcing anyone to purchase champions, if you don't think they are useful because of the way their rules work, don't buy them. It's not unfair to the people who buy them, because they are choosing to buy a model that follows a set of rules. Its not unfair to the opponent. So who is it unfair to? The champions themselves?

and as for examples of unfairness, what happens when there are two models left? Is it unfair that i can only kill one, no matter my skills or attacks? I could do ten wounds but only one will die because one of them has plus one attack and the other doesn't?

It says no where that you must allocate to kill but it does say he works like a rank and file trooper, except he can accept challenges and look out sir etc.

Festus
21-08-2005, 08:29
Hi

The rules on this are quite clear:

After the last sentence of the paragraph was removed ("If killed in close combat, any excess wounds caused against them are carried over to normal rank-and-file models in the unit.") wounds do not carry over from attacks allocated specifically against a champion.

Champions are comparable to characters in that they can issue and accept challenges and benefit from the Look Out, Sir! roll.

In all other respects a champion is a rank and file member of a unit and thus eligible to satisfy losses to rank and file members. If the unit is wiped out, the champ takes wounds like every other R'n'F.

You might even want him to die before the Standard in quite a few cases: Most champs only have +1A, resulting in - maybe- another W and thus a point for CR.
The standard provides you with that point automatically.

Greetings
Festus

Izram
21-08-2005, 13:46
Alright, so pg. 109 has been changed. Where is this change located by the way?

samw
21-08-2005, 14:37
Festus: I know if the unit itself is wiped out the champion dies, but if only the front rank dies I believed it was like the rest of the command i.e. he remained alive unless specifically targetted. You still caused a wound, just not on him.

Festus
21-08-2005, 16:05
Hi

Izram- The change is in all the Chronicles/Anuals and the GW Errata.

Samw- Of course this is true: The Champion is a normal R'n'F model, thus if you have other R'n'F models to satisfy combat losses, you may remove them first.
(This assumes that no wounding hits are specifically allocated to the champion)

Greetings
Fetus

Yanos
22-08-2005, 09:39
Just to elaborate on Festus' point about the change to p109, the new text is the same as the old but removes the final sentence stating that wounds carry over onto the unit. It's available here (http://uk.games-workshop.com/chronicles/errata/assets/warhammer-rulebook.pdf). :)