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Rhycore
12-07-2007, 03:09
And now it comes to this...

In a few short days, to 1000 point Dwarf armies shall be heading to battle. Being that I've never done "mirror match" before, I'm looking for a few tips.

When two dwarf armies fight, what are the tools that let one win?

I was thinking a Gyrocopter would be very good - but with a low Weapon Strength can it even punch through the armor of a Dwarf Warrior?

Not that my Gyrocopter is up and running. That poor thing. First super glue, then Pining then epoxy... It just won't stay together. What do I have to do, weld the thing!?

shartmatau
12-07-2007, 03:15
A gyrocopter won't really be useful against other dwarves since you can't march block them. Dwarves fall (at least mine do) to cannons and bolt throwers. I would take a unit of warriors, a unit of longbeards, a kind of cheap thane, and warmachines. Dwarf vs dwarf is not a fun battle but have fun:)

Rhycore
12-07-2007, 03:23
I don't have any Bolt Throwers or Grudge Throwers right now. I have a Flame Cannon, an Organ Gun, and I think 2 Standard Cannons.

If it really comes down to War machines, I'll run the max number of Cannons I can, and then either the Flame Cannon or Organ gun - but which one?

The Organ can do more wounds and has better Armor Pen.

Do you think taking an entirely shoot army could work?

Ninsaneja
12-07-2007, 03:36
Entirely shoot is good against dwarves... he can't move in fast enough to come to BTB.

Of course, if he uses the same strategy as you it's all down to the dice rolls...

Dead Man Walking
12-07-2007, 04:07
You go Flame cannon, Organ gun is only good against skirmish, calvary of any kind, flyers and Ogre based infantry. Since a dwarf player is not going to be using any of those you should focus on the cannon which melts down blocks of tightly packed infantry. With dwarfs small bases you should be able to get 10+ wounds on a well aimed shot. Cannons are great too, pull down some miners to get behind the enemy and chew up thier artillery (make em cheap, 10 guys max).

Gyrocoptor is a waste, it cant march block dwarves and wounds on a 5+ on a regular dwarf.

Theres three schools of thought on dwarf vrs dwarf.
1. All shooty: If your opponent and you both go all shooty its just a dice off and some based on what you field. Against an army that is balanced (infantry+guns) you have a better chance of winning, focus shots and aim to get points. If an all marchy army gets to you your in trouble.

2. All balanced. If your against all balanced with all balanced you need to stick to hand weapon and shield combo and hope for good dice rolls. Standing back and shooting may not be an option, you may have to get out there and do combat. An assault army will out number your infantry units and hit flanks on you, so its best to stand back and shoot while weakening your opponents units (Removing ranks, try to pick off one rank from each unit.) before combat.

3. Assault army (My Fav), Against shooty you will take some damage to begin with but eventually when you get there they will break. Against another assaulty army its all about tactics and dice rolls, try to hit a flank and keep with hand weapon shield (No great weapons). To get across the table you will need Strollaz rune.

Peril
12-07-2007, 05:56
Gain artillery advantage by destroying his first. This requires Master Engineers and Cannons. Put your Cannons on hills if possible, since it is harder to bounce a cannonball up a hill. You could also take a Anvil and some Miners. Organ Guns are great against crew too, but you have to move them up first turn to get into range of other machines/ gunner units. Once you gain the advantage of firepower, roast him.

Oberon
12-07-2007, 20:24
Gain artillery advantage by destroying his first. This requires Master Engineers and Cannons. Put your Cannons on hills if possible, since it is harder to bounce a cannonball up a hill. You could also take a Anvil and some Miners. Organ Guns are great against crew too, but you have to move them up first turn to get into range of other machines/ gunner units. Once you gain the advantage of firepower, roast him.
How is it more difficult to bounce up a hill? Otherwise all good, anvil&miners are great anytime.
You might also consider taking the RO defense/concealment whatever on one of your cannons, so you can fire first no matter what.


You go Flame cannon, Organ gun is only good against skirmish, calvary of any kind, flyers and Ogre based infantry.


You keep saying yourself that, IŽll keep pulverising regiments. After a direct hit of a stone thrower, thereŽs nothing greater than a good salvo from organ gun. There is no bad target for an organ gun, it will hurt almost anything.

Dead Man Walking
12-07-2007, 23:01
So your saying to hit hard with a stone thrower and then shoot the same unit with the organ gun to toss some salt on the wound? Why spend 120 points and a rare slot on two weapons when you could do lots of damage to two different targets with a stone thrower and a flame cannon?

Organ guns excel at skirmish/calvary/flyers because they do not require rolls to hit and does not require templates (since they are either spaced out or in a single rank templates don't do as much damage as they do to rank and file infantry that are packed togeather.). Since those units also tend to have 5-10 wounds worth of models the Organ gun can decimate them with a good salvo. The Organ gun does 0 to 10 hits a shot, and averages 4-6. Of those 4-6 you will wound 3-5 times (counting on toughness of course). 3-5 wounds is not that impressive if your opponent has 20 dwarfs in a unit.

However since his opponent has none of those things and does have lots of tightly packed infantry you can on average dish out way more wounds with a flame cannon.

I field both the organ gun and flame cannon, in my last dwarf on dwarf battle my opponent marched his balanced army at my balanced army, every single flame cannon attack was devistating, the Organ gun not so.

However I get the feeling that your love for the Organ gun will mean you will choose it regardless. I'm just saying that both Rare guns have thier utility and where one is weak the other excels.

Rhycore
12-07-2007, 23:50
I'm probably going with the Flame Cannon. Higher Strength and better Armor Peneration are of more value to me then a whole bunch of shots.

Even though Longbeards are immune to panic (he will prolly take some) and Dwarfs in general have a very high Leadership, I will value the one would panic test.

Should I pass on a Thane of Pain and instead get an Engineer?

Mouse_NJ
13-07-2007, 13:27
I would recommended 2 things cannons and the 5+ ward save banner as you know he's going to be shooting just as much as you are. If i was forced to play another dwarf player in a 1 off game that was competitive. I'd actually leave the flame cannon at home, and bring 2 cannons and 2 grudge throwers. Immediately on round 1 I'd thrower both rocks at his elite troops IE Ironbreakers or Hammers, and use the cannons to target his warmachines.

I'd probably even bring 2 DOW cannons or 1 DOW cannon and a Halfing hot pot. It sounds odd but for the points its a mini stone thrower wounding on 5's but its not bad because of the template hit, put it smack at the front of your line and keep flinging, don't move. Lastly, consider a Goblin Hewrer
Each turn
2 cannon shots
2 grudge throwerer (stone thrower template)
1 DOW cannon
1 Halfing hot pot (stone thrower template)

N1AK
13-07-2007, 14:36
Mouse: I might be missing something but that seems like more are + special than hes going to have at 1k points.

Dwarf vs Dwarf games are almost always pretty dull, if you go shooty it will be whoever goes MOST shooty that wins.

I'd be tempted to take an army using a BSB with Strollaz, a hammerer unit with the 5+ ward banner and two units of slayers. You've now got a pretty nasty combat line which doesn't care about CR. You should be charging or receiving during turn 3. Perhaps even take the RoChallenge and drag a unit into a combat he doesnt want.
With the points left I'd suggest a Cannon, and a stone thrower + flame cannon (march it forwards and cook his units).

This is more interesting than just playing 2 gunlines, and if you win you've got some big ass bragging rights ^_^

Rhycore
15-07-2007, 17:31
Just a quick reply regarding the battle.

I scored a Solid Victory. The Flame Cannon earned it's keep. Completely destroyed any ifantry and he had.

It was certainly the right choice.

Mouse_NJ
16-07-2007, 15:28
I was more giving options however at 2k
Special
-Grudge thrower OR cannon
-2 bolt throwers (2:1 on slots)
-Cannon
-Cannon
Rare
-DOW Cannon/ Hot pot
-Hewrer (rare+hero)/ Organ Gun

Lord Of The Night
20-07-2007, 02:57
i have fought dwarfs against my own several times at local tourneys
and it always seems to come down to
"He with the most guns wins" just my two cents

Atzcapotzalco
20-07-2007, 08:17
Truly, the army melee based dwarves have the most problems against is a gunline, plus with the high toughness and mediocre offensive capablilities of dwarf troops if it does come down to a melee fight between two units the one which is down a rank or outnumber bonus is likely to lose. Against the purest gunlines even a depleted unit of veterans can do a fair bit of damage, but with at least 3 turns of movement seperating the armies it is likely to come down to shooting superiority. It doesn't help that most dwarf artillery is most effective against ranked infantry. Given that, this may be an opportunity to use a character with the rune of shielding giving a 2+ ward against shooting. Less expensive than a full unit of troops, but still a threat to warmachine crew or very light missile units, and potentially really, really, annoying for an opponent.

N1AK
20-07-2007, 08:44
At 2k points melee dwarves can do ok, add in the anvil and a couple of 5-10 man miner units and all of a sudden his table edge is a danger. Sacrifice these silencing hellblasters/flame cannons/Bolt Throwers/hand gunners etc.

Add in Strollaz and the banner that gives a 5+ shooting ward save within 6" and you might get enough across the board.

It's not the most effective Dwarf list, but at least it would make a Dwarf v Dwarf game a bit more exciting.