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alpha_dude
14-07-2007, 00:07
I was just flipping through the Tyranid Codex, and am quite amazed how good the Hive Tyrant is compared to other army HQ choices, esp my beloved ork boss! For only 15pts more he gets better BS, much Better T, higher W, I and Ld and a much better base save!

Why is the Tyrant seemingly so good for so few points?

*EDIT*
I'm not on the page with the Broodlord...for only 10 points more better WS, BS, T, I, Ld, Sv and Power weapon like attacks!!

RampagingRavener
14-07-2007, 00:11
Because he can be shot at, and the only unit he can hide in is Tyrant Gaurd. Generally speaking, a Hive Tyrant is a focal point of a Tyranid Army and will have much of the opponent's fire gunning for it. A Warboss can't really be shot to death on turn one like a Monsterous Creature can. Also, you need to tack on 16 or so points of bioweapons on the Hive Tyrant at least before you can feild it.

alpha_dude
14-07-2007, 00:16
Because he can be shot at, and the only unit he can hide in is Tyrant Gaurd. Generally speaking, a Hive Tyrant is a focal point of a Tyranid Army and will have much of the opponent's fire gunning for it. A Warboss can't really be shot to death on turn one like a Monsterous Creature can. Also, you need to tack on 16 or so points of bioweapons on the Hive Tyrant at least before you can feild it.


True i suppose, but that doesnt apply to the broodlord also does it?

scarvet
14-07-2007, 00:25
Cos the broodlord can't have 2-wound nods in mega armour in the trukk

zeep
14-07-2007, 00:27
True i suppose, but that doesn't apply to the broodlord also does it?

You can rejoice in the fact that most opponents will be smacking themselves on the head for the broodlord later. He is extremely difficult to get to work as he should. Tyranid Hq's fill more of a role than simply command squad etc. They are usually the key synapse for the army and often a big chunk of the anti-armor for the army.

Points don't really compare well across armies. Especially in comparison to an eight year old codex :D Points are best compared in the context of the army and its limitations.

catbarf
14-07-2007, 00:44
Broodlords... meet the autocannon. Since they can't Infiltrate with a retinue, you can just pick off the (very expensive!) retinue with Heavy Bolters and Autocannons, then just zap the Broodlord with a Lascannon or Autocannon. If he doesn't take a retinue... he's dog meat. The issue with Tyranids is target prioritization, you need to know what you're taking down and why and with what, or you'll end up with a bunch of damaged (but still fighting) gribblies.

Randy
14-07-2007, 01:05
Not so much why and with what as what order and with what.

That and having a reasonable sense of odds so you don't spam 1 thing with too many shots that could kill the horde is important..

RampagingRavener
14-07-2007, 01:37
True i suppose, but that doesnt apply to the broodlord also does it?

The Broodlord has to take a compulsery retinue, which is at bare minimum another 80 points.

zeep
14-07-2007, 02:40
I
*EDIT*
I'm not on the page with the Broodlord...for only 10 points more better WS, BS, T, I, Ld, Sv and Power weapon like attacks!!

The Broodlord is one of those units you always want to put in your army... and it never quite works.

He requires a genestealer retinue... and then takes fleet from them. His infiltrate ability tends to cause more problems than it solves once your opponent gets used to fighting him. Gotta love the stats, but they don't help when you take the fire that his squad tends to draw.

It ends up being a problem in implementation, not the stats. It's not that he cannot be good, if fact when hes on the ball it's a beautiful thing. Its more that he doesn't fit any role well and tends die before ever making combat. (and hes far to expensive with the retinue to use as a decoy/fire absorption squad unless your VERY good.)

Biomass Denial
14-07-2007, 02:54
Hmm one more thing every one seems to forget is that the broodlord actually has rending power weapons.

RampagingRavener
14-07-2007, 03:30
Hmm one more thing every one seems to forget is that the broodlord actually has rending power weapons.

No-one is forgetting that. But he's slow, pretty much hopeless if he can't infiltrate, and uses up quite a few points. If the Broodlord and his Retinue hit combat, then they'll utterly destroy whatever they lay their claws on.

Unfortunatly, the key word here is "if". The unit is slow, but doesn't have the toughness to survive the slog across the battlefeild like a walking Tyrant or Carnifex could. And even if he does arrive, in all likelyhood you'll already have over-run the opponent with faster moving units.

Besides, Rending on the Broodlord isn't amazing. Rending is most useful in massed numbers, while the Broodlord has a high enough st for the auto-wound part of rending not to be hugely useful, and ignores saves already.

pwrgmrguard
14-07-2007, 03:42
Considering the amount of heavy weapons you can put in a IG HQ choice... on a decent sized board i think they beat the hive tyrant.

DV8
14-07-2007, 05:25
Broodlords... meet the autocannon. Since they can't Infiltrate with a retinue, you can just pick off the (very expensive!) retinue with Heavy Bolters and Autocannons, then just zap the Broodlord with a Lascannon or Autocannon. If he doesn't take a retinue... he's dog meat. The issue with Tyranids is target prioritization, you need to know what you're taking down and why and with what, or you'll end up with a bunch of damaged (but still fighting) gribblies.

Actually, he can infiltrate with a retinue (which is mandatory). The brood just cant' fleet while the Broodlord is still alive. And once you kill the retinue, being an Independent Character you'll no longer be able to pick him out so easily via shooting.


The Broodlord is one of those units you always want to put in your army... and it never quite works.

He requires a genestealer retinue... and then takes fleet from them. His infiltrate ability tends to cause more problems than it solves once your opponent gets used to fighting him. Gotta love the stats, but they don't help when you take the fire that his squad tends to draw.

It ends up being a problem in implementation, not the stats. It's not that he cannot be good, if fact when hes on the ball it's a beautiful thing. Its more that he doesn't fit any role well and tends die before ever making combat. (and hes far to expensive with the retinue to use as a decoy/fire absorption squad unless your VERY good.)

The thing about a Broodlord is that he doesn't always have to make combat to really be effective. I consistently field one in my army, and he only ever makes combat one out of every 10 games. But he's my second-favorite unit in my entire army (barring my Flyrant, of course :D ) for several reasons:


Synapse. He's an awesome and effective way to get hitting power, AND more synapse into my list, without taking a second Tyrant (which would be too slow and ineffective) or Warriors (which I'm just not a big fan of).
Intimidation. He's a character-killer. His retinue is a squad killer. They are damn good at what they do and many people rightly fear them. Unless they know how to really combat the unit (and still deal with the rest of my army), the Broodlord + retinue frightens them, to the point where they'll purposefully avoid that unit. Great for pushing enemy units away from an objective or into the rest of my army.


That said, he is INCREDIBLY difficult to use, and if you're expecting him to kill a lot every game, then he's not the right unit for you. Also, being able to utilize cover to minimize incoming fire, and overwhelm the enemy with bucketloads of units to draw fire, is essential. As an example, I have 57 models and 10 scoring units (3 of which are monstrous) at 1000 points, which means that very rarely does my Broodlord die or draw lots of fire, as that gets put into my Genestealers and Termagaunts (and on occasion Flyrant/Carnies).


DV8

hivefleetcarrion
14-07-2007, 06:04
the main point of the tyrant is to soak wounds and provide synapse for as long as possible. i'm lucky if my tyrant lives past turn 3 most games, and without synapse on the board a majority of nid units are in alot of trouble.

Bookwrak
14-07-2007, 07:07
I was just flipping through the Tyranid Codex, and am quite amazed how good the Hive Tyrant is compared to other army HQ choices, esp my beloved ork boss! For only 15pts more he gets better BS, much Better T, higher W, I and Ld and a much better base save!

Why is the Tyrant seemingly so good for so few points?

*EDIT*
I'm not on the page with the Broodlord...for only 10 points more better WS, BS, T, I, Ld, Sv and Power weapon like attacks!!
Because the Hive Tyrant isn't an ork. Straight up cross army comparisons don't work. The Hive Tyrant and the Broodlord cost what they do because that's the generally appropriate cost for their abilities in that army.

Lord_Squinty
14-07-2007, 11:06
Because the army points of things in 40k are factored by the army, whats carrying the weapon etc.

I've not checked, but I'm willing to bet a lascannon on a BS3 guardsman is cheaper than same Lascannon on a BS4 Marine.
I do know that Hvy Bolters in a DEV squad cost more than a Hvy Bolter in a Tactical squad, because of the impact 4 heavy bolters have, and also the fact that a tactical squad, even with a heavy bolter is likely to move.

Its the same with characters, points arent set by there stats alone, but also what units support them and their place in the army.

Son of Makuta
14-07-2007, 11:18
Actually, Guard heavy weapons are *more* expensive, I think... Possibly because Guard don't do much movin', and also because it's harder to Torrent-of-Fire the heavy weapons or clip them with kill zones because of their dodgy 2-man heavy weapon teams. It's also, however, just as likely to be Pete Haines being biased :|