PDA

View Full Version : Hordes of Chaos, guide for newcommers (Long)



Pages : [1] 2

Neknoh
10-04-2005, 08:56
I wrote this a few days ago and felt that more then the GW community boards had newly warped Chaos followers.

I for sure hope that this simple guide/tactica/how to, will help a lot of aspiring champions of Chaos on their way to daemonhood.

Of course, all you other veteran players can offer your advice on the Hordes of Chaos as well.

And I beg you, please, don't make this topic locked by trolling or flaming. And please, stay on subject.

Oh well, here we go!

Of course, I wish for other chaos generals to answer questions that may be asked in this thread as well.

And, if you have anything to say about the tactics and ways of Chaos, feel free to tell.

And here it is.

Welcome to the wastes of Chaos fellow champion, sit down here by the fire and let me tell you about the true force of Chaos, listen well my friend, and may thy path lead to daemon hood.

It is always fun with new players, I'll give you a walkthrough on as much stuff as I can.

First of all, let us have a look at the five different powers, their pros and their cons.

We begin with the oldest one, Chaos Undivided:

Chaos undivided comes for free on all units and characters that can have a mark, it gives you the ability to reroll failed psychology tests, meaning that the Helmet of Many Eyes combined with a Greatweapon is the ideal equipment for an Exalted Champion of Chaos Undivided.

The lores you get access to when having this mark on your sorcerers (or when taking the book of secrets) are Fire, Shadow and Death.

Fire is the most destructive of the three, it is in general, one of the most destructive lores around.

Shadow, this lore can be great if you wants that extra movement and still keep a few decent magic missiles up your sleeve. The Pit of Shadows can kill quite a few models if you are a good enough roller with your dice.

Death, well... what can I say, death is death. The Death Lore is best used in conjunction with Tzeentch magic due to the chance of getting Doom and Darkness, which, if combined with Violet Fire, can sapp even a Blood Dragon lord into the warp.

The army composition of Chaos Undivided:

If the character that is the general has the mark of Chaos Undivided, then you can have any mix of Mortal, Beast and Daemonic Champions (mind you, they may not have higher Ld then him) with any mix of marks. But you must have a unit with the same mark as a differently marked character. For instance, if you have a Champion of Nurgle in your army, then you must have a unit with the Mark of Nurgle.

You can have any mark on any markable unit as well, though remember, a character with the Mark of Chaos Undivided may only join other units with the mark of Chaos Undivided, or units with no mark at all.

There, that was Chaos Undivided.


Now, let us head for the Lord of Change and his mind boggling games.

The Tzeentchian mark:

Often considered the weakest mark because of the psychology loss on the units. A unit marked with Tzeentch looses its ability to reroll failed psychology tests, all they do is to generate a Power Dice… unless they are fleeing.
However, it is one of the cheaper marks of Chaos when it comes to marking units, you only pay 20 pts for an additional Power Dice.

The mark given to characters however, it can only be taken by Lords, Daemon Princes, Exalted Daemons, Exalted Champions and Aspiring champion.
The reason for this is that the mark turns the character into a lvl 4/2 wizard depending on whether he is a hero or Lord.
This mark is the most expensive mark to put on a character though, but it benefits them hugely.

The play style of Tzeentch is to go Multiple Small Units, MSU, due to the fact that you almost have to go Character heavy and have as many Power Dice as possible.
The favoured item combo for a Lord riding either a Disc or a Dragon is the Golden Eye of Tzeentch, the Staff of Change, a Greatweapon and a shield.

Tzeentchian characters are often the hardest to choose equipment for, due to the fact that they can be kitted out to be Fighters, Sorcerers or something in between. But if given a Greatweapon and a Spell familiar, an Exalted Champion has the chance of getting Orange Fire, turning him into a beast of Close Combat. A Beastlord with the Goretooth and a Greatweapon has the ability to turn into a true beast of Chaos, unleashing both the Goretooth and Orange Fire upon himself.

The Tzeentchian Lore is one of the most random lores out there, but fear not, with the sheer amount of spells that can be cast, you are almost certain that one of them will be extremely strong.
The different colloured fires have their different uses, Red Fire, a magic missile with the potential of 6 strength 6 hits on a distance of 30 inches is just sweet.
Green fire is the perfect spell to cast on a unit with Greatweapons or a realy big block of weaker units, trust me, it is fun to see that group of Swordsmasters hack themselves to pieces.
The one making horrors are excellent against low toughness opponents and Blue Fire, the perfect magic missile, the potential of 12 strength 7 hits is just cruel.
And Purple Fire can be used to warp away that pesky hero on the opposing side, watch out for Goblin and Ork Shamans though, since they might have Shiny Baubles, I once saw Archaon cast Violet Fire, the Ork reflected it back on him and he failed his Ld test.

Anyway, the true power of the Tzeentchian lore lies in the sheer amount of Magic that you can push through, 1 Red fire does not hurt a unit, but 4 each turn does.

The Tzeentchian army mostly is built around Chariots and small units with the Mark of Tzeentch with a few big blocks of Marauders to back them up.

But we must not forget the Tzeentch Daemons, Horrors accompanied by Flamers can make an excellent flank guard, no Fast cavalry will last long if they walk within 30” of those Horrors.

A group of 16 Horrors with 4 Flamers cost 340 pts, but they cast bound spells at Power Level 8, gets 3 ranks in close combat and have Shooting support. This is excellent to put down on one flank if you can spare the points, it also grants you more magic so that the opponent will be even harder pressed.

Screamers are excellent as well and can be used in a plethora of ways.

They are pretty good at getting to war machines, it is just to fly over units, slashing them while heading for those pesky cannons.

You can also use them to harry an enemy block unit, land on its flank, then fly to the other one and use the Slashing attack, then repeat. remember though, always land on the flank or in the rear of the unit, thus avoiding getting charged.

You can use them to fly over a corner of a unit and slash at that hiding Wizard.

And, since the Knights of Tzeentch have one big weakness, psychology, panic in particular, use Screamers to screen the knights, 2 wounds each and skirmishing! And then, the turn before you carge, fly the screamers over your intended target and cause some Slashing kills, making it easyer for the Knights to break the enemy.


We have now dealt with the games and schemes of Tzeentch, now, let us move on to the power of Khorne.

The Khornate mark do not let you play all that tactical, though the way of Khorne can be pretty damn hard without tactics.

It renders your heroes and your units immune to psychology, but makes them frenzied. The additional dispell dice is nice as well.
The mark costs about the same price as Nurgle, but it gives you a lot more hitting power in close combat.

A lord of Khorne is a force of Nature by himself, slap him in with some chosen knights and you have a tsunami of bloodshed.

Khorne despises magic, you can take sorcerers, but you cannot mark them Khorne, nor is it considered fluffy.

The most favoured units of Khorne players in general are Chosen Warriors of Khorne with either Additional Handweapon, Hallberds or Greatweapons. Of course, you could give them all three options.
And we must not forget the Chosen Knights of Khorne, the Crém de la Crém of bloodthirsty killing machines. 3 Strength 5 ws 5 attacks each, combined with those of the horses can wipe a unit from the face of the table top.

Well… there is actualy not much more to say about Khorne, their daemons are, like their warriors, killing machines.

Neknoh
10-04-2005, 08:56
Let us now move onto Grandfather Nurgle, the god of famine and caressing love.

Yet again an expensive mark, but the ability to bump your already unkillable lord to another level of staying power is excellent. Throw in the Crown of Everlasting Conquest and few can bring him down without Killing Blow.

The mark turns all of your characters into brick walls, imagine yourself that pesky Bretonnian unit of KotR charging him, perhaps they fail their Fear test, now they hit on 6s and if the Nurgle Champion has the Armour of Damnation, they must reroll all succeeded To Hit rolls, and I doubt they would actually kill him, and then, he has this nice Greatweapon and 4 attacks. (though he might loose quite badly due to combat res)

The Nurgle Lore is one of the harder ones to use tacticaly, but when done correctly, you can be sure that your opponent will embrace Nurgle for protection against the deceases .
Now, for the Lore of Nurgle.

It is one of the most weakening lores in the game, being able to bring the Toughness of an Ogre Tyrant down to that of a halfling, and the chance of making Breton.nian Grail Knights into mewling wrecks of fever delusions, ah yes, the true might of sickness.

The basic spell, buboes, is excellent at taking out war machine crews as well as killing off characters weakened by Scabs (toughness 1 Elf anyone?)
If you see a unit preparing to charge your chosen knights in the flank, cast Poxes upon them, the lowering of Leadership, Strength, Ws and Bs should be enough for your knights to survive the attack.
Boils is the ultimate spell to cast against heavily armoured foes, strength 4 with no armour saves can pluck a unit of Knights apart.
Afflictions can be used to slow a unit enough to run rings of knights, Horsemen and warriors around it.
And lastly, Pestilence, you can even cast it at the opponent round 1 due to the extreme range. And I doubt I need to explain its greatness.

The Knights and Warriors of Nurgle is a bit weak against enemy shooting (panic), but they can wreck havoc in the enemy lines. When playing Nurgle, a unit of 20 non-chosen oft times is better then a unit of 12 or 14 Chosen warriors, due to the fact that the mark gets more effective the more troops you have in a unit, unlike Tzeentch and Khorne, which generates the same number of DD and PD no matter the size.

Though Nurgle armies tend to be very elitist because of this, there is no need to play that way, a unit of 20 Warriors with Shields costs 345 pts and we must not forget the standard.

The Nurgle Daemons are the toughest ones around, they also have the only swarm available to Chaos.

In truth, Nurgle is one of the harder marks to play, but once you get the grip, our loving father will never disappoint you.


Now, let us move on to the youngest of the gods, Slaanesh.

The mark is cheap and benefits your army pretty decent, though there are few times an undivided warrior fails to do what a Slaanesh one can. The big bonus though, is the fact that you never ever can fail a Panic test, nor will you auto break if beaten in combat by pesky zombies.
The mark is at best placed upon the body of a daemon, giving him the ability to strike first.

The three most popular choices for Slaanesh Lords and equipment are the following:

Lord of Slaanesh, Steed of Slaanesh, Blade of Blood, Pendant of Slaanesh and Gaze of the Gods. This guy just runs arround, gaining both wounds and attacks in every battle.

Daemonprince of Slaanesh, Blade of the Ether, Soul Hunger, Soporific Musk. This guy is the best tin can opener you can ever imagine (apart from a Shaggoth Champion).

Exalted Sorceror of Slaanesh, Level four upgrade, Chaos Daemonsword and a Spell familiar (that last one varies). This guy is a pure monster, casting spells from one of the best lores while being able to cut a swathe through the enemy in the name of Slaanesh.

The units of Slaanesh are great, you do not need to screen them by fear of panic (though you might want to anyway), and the Warriors and Knights has the ability to pick up the feared, Rapturous Standard to help them bring pleasure and pain to the fields of Battle.

The Slaaneshi Lore is considered one of the best in the game.
Extremely dominating, it can make marauders unbreakable, enemy sledgehammers to avoid combat and opposing wizards go frenzied.
It has great tactical use, just like most other lores, but this one takes the price.

The Daemons of Slaanesh have the fastest Fast Cavalry around, and even a normal block of Daemonettes can be extremely hard to deal with.

That was Slaanesh, the dark prince.

Now, we have talked through all of the marks, if you have any questions, ask and ye shall be answered.

But I surely hope that all of you other generals of chaos out there will help these newcomers as well, they need more then one persons tactical advice.

May the dark four smile upon you, may your conquest of the world succeed and may you be rewarded with immortallity.

celestine
10-04-2005, 11:34
I'm not really a newb but i'm having a bit of trouble equiping my exalted champ on SoS. What would ye vets suggest?
Also, on a side note, to help the newbs you may want to emphasise the negatives a bit more becaise right now your basicaly saying that everything is great...

Some nice stuff in there though. :)

Celestine

Neknoh
10-04-2005, 16:40
Thank you ^^

Well... it is hard to tell all of the weaknesses, since I have mentioned them one way or the other.

But here it goes:

Tzeentch: Weakest Psychology arround and the fact that you need to drop a lot of points in characters to get full use of the mark.

Nurgle: Very expensive mark, and it is not always that you can make the most out of it due to the high costs for Warriors and Knights, you also looses vital resistance to Panic tests.

Khorne: Frenzy, the double edged sword. If you don't have tactics, be prepared that your opponent has. The fact that Khorne is easely played as an All Eggs in One Bascet army makes it even harder to balance a list.

Slaanesh: Lacks the overly strong characters of Tzeentch and Khorne, also lacks the Fear aspect and staying power of Nurgle. But you get access to Slaanesh magic and becomes immune to psychology, though your characters are overall weaker then most other.


As for your Exalted of Slaanesh... well... there are a few ways.

One of them is to use him as a flanker, teamed with some lovely Mounted Daemonettes or Marauder Horsemen to remove the Rank Bonus of the enemy.

An Exalted Champion of Slaanesh with the Bindings of Slaanesh, a shield and a Greatweapon or a Hallberd works wonders, throw him into a unit of Marauder Horsemen and charge a flank with him, then, issue a challenge to the weakest character/champion of the unit. Get a pretty decent Overkill, remove the opponents Rank bonus and have flank as well as perhaps even a wound or two and you can wave that unit bye bye!

Though it gets easier to do the above if you have Mounted Daemonettes slamming into one flank and the Champion working solo on the other.

Slaaneshi champions are amongst the hardest to deck out good, a Greatfang would be nice if you plan to go Knight hunting with him (mm... 20" charge), you could also give him the Sceptre of Dommination, zipp up to the opposit general and use said sceptre.

The Book of Seekrets might be a nasty suprise if you have got an Enchanted Shield and a GW as well, remember to pick Fire lore and hope for that nasty sword.

squiggoth
10-04-2005, 17:05
to help the newbs you may want to emphasise the negatives a bit more becaise right now your basicaly saying that everything is great...

Right ho, we all know only Nurgle is great!

I'll throw some stuff in then, before I have to go and cook :)

The Mark of Nurgle's pro's and cons:

- Extra wounds on your characters. That 4th wound on my lord has saved his bum many a time.

- Fear on both units and characters. This is actually a bit iffy; on the one hand, Fear is very handy - you don't suffer from Terror, getting outnumbered by Fear-causing enemies makes you giggle, and you can auto-break units when you outnumber them. This is also a downside, as the Mark sort of forces you to take big blocks of troops, or at least try and combine charges to benefit from cumulative unit strength.
Knights of Nurgle aren't that much better than Knights of the other Gods, but they're 50 points more expensive.
Chosen of Nurgle (both Knights and Warriors) get ridiculously expensive, and I normally don't bother with them.
Warriors of Nurgle are pretty alright, especially when you team them up with other Fear-causers (Nurglings are great for this). These guys work well in units of 15-19, with a character inside to get some extra kills.
Minotaurs with a Mark of Nurgle (Plaguebulls) are excellent value for money - cows with great weapons and a 4+ armour save, and Minotaurs get a good deal on their (cheapest of all MoNs) MoN.

Neknoh
10-04-2005, 17:13
Ahh yes, the Mad Cow minos.

The reason I did not include the Beast units in this tactica was that a) I am not all that familliar to the beasts, and b) this is focused arround Hordes of Chaos.

However, it might be a good idea to include tips on the Beasts as well and make this a Chaos beginners tactica.

Let us all do that, let us welcome all sorts of Chaos players.

User Name
10-04-2005, 21:34
Brayshamans make excilend scrool caddies as they have a m of 5 and cost less that there mortal counterparts, also the braystaff also means he has some combat abilites.

Beastherds are great for warrior screens and baiting since they can rank up in a way to cause a bad overrun direction for your oponent. They also excel at taking on s3 t3 infantry with a t4 and multipul attacks

Small units of chosen (6 knights or 12 warriors) can break most untis on their own or in case of the warriors hold an entire flank by themselves

Furies make a greak knight screen and war machine hunters

taer
10-04-2005, 22:02
Furies also make terrific rear chargers for that extra +2 combat resolution. And damn good mage hunters, though not as good as screamers. Furies have poo leadership though, which for daemons is extra dangerous.

I play a mixed daemon (Slaanesh and Tzeentch) legion, so I'll flesh out what I know.

Daemonic heralds are decent fighty characters, with the option of holding the daemonic equivalent of a dispell scroll.

I'm not a terribly big fan of big Daemon characters (except Greater daemons), especially Undivided ones since there aren't any units they can join at all. They just seem far too delicate for their points cost, though any big guy with blade of the ether is a knight killer.

Screamers are good units, but only unit strength one and pretty expensive to have a good size unit of them.

Horrors with horror champions just kick all sorts of ass. Bound spells, lv.1 spell casters (always give them red fire). They never have any need to get into combat, so keep them out of it!

Flamers are excellent screening units, and surprisingly are pretty decent in combat.

Slaanesh cavalry is great, with a 20" move, but very, very, delicate, and at 30 points a piece are a travesty to lose. Not only that, but they can't fill some of the usual roles of fast cav (eg. bait). A steed mounted daemonic herald is a great thing to join with them to make a very destructive flanking unit.

Daemonettes are OK....I suppose. I run 20 of them, but I've never really been terribly impressed. But it is always a good thing to have one ranked up unit with command.

Oh, and a chariot of slannesh with a herald riding in it makes for one of the most superb chariots ever.

Neknoh
10-04-2005, 23:31
Why not have a small Mortal Unit tactica as well then?


A unit of 5 or 6 Chosen Knights oft times can deal with most units you throw them against if they either flank or you help out with a unit of Marauder Horsemen.

Chaos Warriors are often considered too much points for what they do, however, if you support them with big blocks of Marauders, they can do realy well.

Marauders are essential, Horsemen or foot, preferably both if your army isn't all mounted. Their abillity to act as flesh screens, Rank adders, flankers and main blocks is stounding. The perfect all rounders.

Chaos Hounds, don't leave home without them (or beastherds), the fact that they only costs 6 pts a piece and has the abillity to claim and negate rank bonuses makes them realy good screens.

The chariots, use these to either guard special areas (hang back behind your lines, so if that nasty dragon lands anywhere near... smack), they can also be used as Infantry supporters, they can babysitt Horrors or blocks of Marauders. A team charge with Chaos Warriors or Knights will often crush any opposition.
You can team them up and use them as a tank team, two, even three chariots can work wonders.
They can also act as batteries by giving them the mark of Tzeentch or Khorne... but if Khorne, avoid forrested areas.

Selsaral
11-04-2005, 20:00
I'll add my bit:

Hordes of Chaos has very few skirmishers available. Furies, Screamers, and Nurglings (swarms skirmish, right?) are all I can think of (and they are all special choices too). This is a debilitating drawback, as any skilled opponent can easily out-manuever you by constantly moving out of your front 90 degree line-of-sight angle. Skirmishers have a 360 degree line-of-sight, are harder to hit with missile weapons, and move through difficult terrain without penalty (invaluable) among other abilities.

The cure? Beast herds. Core choices from the Beasts of Chaos book. But beast herds aren't ordinary skirmishers. They can't cancel rank bonus', just like normal skirmishers, but they DO gain up to a 2 rank bonus when they rank up in combat, which is profoundly powerful. Furthermore, they are cheap at 4 points per ungor and 7 points per gor. At that price, they are cheap enough to be fodder from enemy shooting (and as skirmishers are harder to hit), but with a rank bonus and full command options (and 4T on the gors) they fight excellently and can crush almost all other skirmishers in the game (including salamanders etc), and can often defeat solid, ranked up units as well.

Invaluable in any army.

Neknoh
13-04-2005, 15:14
There is a problem if you play Archaons Horde though, since you only will get access to the pretty expensive T3 Flayerkin.

The Flayerkin is best used as a pretty offensive scouting force rather then screens because of their abillity to hack a wizard or warmachine crew to pieces in a short ammount of time, they can even take care of big and nasty knights and heroes of the luck is on their side.

But as said, they have T3 and Skirmish, thus they die easely and cannot remove Rank Bonuses.

Khorn on the march
13-04-2005, 19:05
I prefere furies with M 20, you can charge all scouts before they are blocking you, s4 is great against scouts and a 5+ ward save and fear dosent make the unit a great flanker and crew/scouts/magic hunter, a gropp of 6 furies isent big enough to kill somthing u need atleast 10 then you have a very evil and destructiv flying unit for 150 and earn them fast, very fast just after one mage you have earnd the hole unit.

taer
13-04-2005, 23:25
Oh, and mage lords (eg. Exalted sorcerers and Great Bray shamans) may be given a chaos daemon sword (which is beyond stupid to give to a fighty character), to make them utter beasts in combat as well as ridiculous casting goons. Obviously, the only marks that really benefit from this are Nurgle and Slaanesh, since Tzeentch wizards are already fighty characters and Khorne guys don't have any wizards.

Again, Undivided is S.O.L. on this, and so many other, options.

daryl_ks
14-04-2005, 04:42
Beast Herds are great for bringing another edge to your chaos army... I always try and include a beast heard just for that added versatility...

Plus the Ungors always get the hits first... thus in essence your defense is cheaper...

Cheers!

Daryl

taer
20-04-2005, 04:30
This thread needs a BUMP.

But I'll be constructive as well.
When playing a Nurgle or daemon army, never underestimate the absolute power that is fear. The common complaint is that Nurgle warriors are too exspensive for their fear to be worth it, but if you think it out, that isn't necessarily the case. Now, one-on-one, the Nurgle unit strength is going to definitely be too low. However, throw in another unit of fear causing troops (A Chariot with a hero in it is another 5 US, Minotaurs are three apiece, knights are two), you'll find that not only will your ridiculous combat capabilities allow you to beat the stuffing out of many troops (You are chaos afterall) But the combined US of the two units will most likely be greater than that of what is left of the enemy, resulting in auto-flee.

Using combined charges with fear causing chaos will in nearly ever case result in a broken enemy battle line. So never forget it!

Neknoh
02-06-2005, 15:10
time to bump

Selsaral
02-06-2005, 18:01
I have some weasely schemes to mix and match powers that some people may not be aware of, so in case anyone cares i'll describe what I do.

Firstly, chaos naturally has some problems including all their cool powers in the same army (due to mark restrictions). Having a general with the mark undivided allows you to mix and match, but it still has restrictions (must have a unit with a mark to include a character with that mark). Gorthor and Archaon both break this rule. Notice these two characters don't count as having the mark undivided, they count as having all four individual marks. This means that you DON'T need to include a unit with a mark to have a character with that mark when your army is lead by Gorthor or Archaon. The rule for requiring a unit with a mark in order to include a character with a mark applies to generals with the mark undivided ONLY. This can really free up your army options.

Also, building on this, minotaurs are limited in that they can only buy the mark of the army general. In an army lead by Gorthor or Archaon, each minotaur unit can choose any mark they want because the general in this case counts as having all four individual marks.

Secondly, the characters who MUST be the general can open up some cool options. For example, in a 3000 point army, if you wanted it to be ultra beast-heavy but ALSO include a chaos lord on chaos dragon, choose Gorthor or Khazrak. Normally the chaos lord on the dragon with the higher leadership would steal the general position, but these special characters void this and allow you to have some interesting combinations in your army.

Similarly, a mortal hero has the same leadership as a beast lord, so in a 2000 point battle for example you could have your general be an undivided mortal hero, and still include a beastlord of tzeentch (for example), and then you can still mix and match marks.

Finally, notice Galrauch can never be the general. This opens up plenty of cool options. In an all-beast army, you can include what is essentially an overpowered Lord of Change without having him steal the general positon and change the army into a daemon-as-core force.

Sariel
02-06-2005, 18:28
Also, if you're hanging with the Grandfather, its well worth your while to give any Bray Shaman scroll caddies the Mark of Nurgle. Expensive, but well worth your while, especially if you're hiding the Shaman in a decent-sized Herd.

And if you're running Nurgle beasts, what else are you going to spend your points on? :p

Since the presence of even one fear-causing model means that opponents will have to pass a leadership test to charge you. And, being a Chaos model, the Bray Shaman is no slouch in close combat either, especially with the Bray Staff.....


Other fun things to put in:

Furies (never leave home without a decently-sized unit of 6+)

Marauder Horsemen - worth their weight in gold. Give them flails and a musician - they're still dirt-cheap, but they'll hit as hard as heavy cavalry. The only drawback - they're metal models.

Chaos Giant - what's not to like? Big. Tough. Stubborn on Ld 10. Poison can be a problem, but hey, you can't have everything.

Core chariots if you're working with Mortals (or better yet, Beasts). Tough, hit hard. Work best in pairs when charging.

Exalted Sorceror of Slaanesh with the Daemon Sword - expensive, but can scare the heck out of an opponent when he charges in...

Units of 4 Undivided, Khornate or Slaaneshi Knights (Champion optional). Big scary units of Chosen are great, but even 4 Chaos Knights can take a lot of shooting before they go down, and its not as if Khornate or Slaaneshi knights have to worry about panic tests. Even 1 Chaos Knight champion is a match for most light (ie no ranks and little armour) units, and if the other guy ignores them, you can always use them as flankers.

Ordo Hereticus
02-06-2005, 19:31
im thinking of doing a marauder horde army

does anyone think it can work? i will use the SoC archaons horde rules for gettin free command at 25 models strong units

anyone seen any army lists happen out there or marauders?

thanks

taer
02-06-2005, 19:46
Yes, I have a friend who runs an all marauder army, Archaon's horde too, I beleive, led by Crom. If you are gonna do the all marauder army I would recommend Crom. That free mark of undivided for Marauders is insane. His army is pretty damn effective, and I have a hard time dealing with it. Either I squeek by barely with a win, or am horribly massacred. He has a few largish units of Marauders, 1 led by Crom, another led by an exalted champion battle standard bearer, which gives marauders that extra Smashy edge. Marauder horsemen are a gem for his army as well, being able to fulfill almost any battlefield role he assigns them, for cheap. He runs a unit of 8 with full command.

Now, for me, I'd like to run Norse marauders for rare with extra hand weapons to have a couple units of nasty high attack models. (Run them six wide if you take them).

But an all marauder army is one of the most effective infantry armies(or fast cavalry if you go exclusively marauder horsemen) out there. I think the only better infantry army is Dogs of War pikemen, but that's just what I think.

Ordo Hereticus
02-06-2005, 21:42
oooo sounds effective :D could you give a full round up of what his list contains? give me some ideas on what path to go down

thanks alot its inspired me now :P

taer
02-06-2005, 22:50
His particular army has 8 horsemen, two units of 20+ marauders (not sure on the exact count), a unit of 16 warriors, 6 knights of Chaos, a sorcerer on daemonic steed with some magical goodies, a second sorcerer on foot, Crom, A BSB, and a chariot. I can't remember anything else at the moment.

Ordo Hereticus
02-06-2005, 23:05
ah sounds good :D

thanks for that

Chris_Tzeentch
06-06-2005, 14:47
How about Dogs Of War/Regiments of Reknown in Chaos armies?

I am considering recruiting Hogobla Khan for my Tzeentch Cavalry army. I think he would fit in well.

Everyone is saying how good furies are. I think I might get some for my army, as firepower and artillery are the bane of my life, and they are perfect for removing them.

If you like Marauder Cavalry, then try centigor. Cheap, lots of attacks, love forests, but are a little unreliable. Useful for fleeing through forests and driving enemy units into traps. I have used them with throwing axes (Strength 5!), but the cost was too much.

Screamers are excellent - perfect artillery/mage hunters.

Has anyone used maneaters? How do they compare with Dragon Ogres?

Neknoh
06-06-2005, 15:12
The Manflayers can proove quite a nice addition to a Mortal army, since most Beasts don't really need Scouts.

There are also the cannons and hotpots to use.

And an all infantry army can find helpers in Norsca Marauders as well as in Pikes

Neknoh
13-07-2005, 16:17
Ah, just tested out the following combo for assasinating weaker characters and helping out in combats where he is needed:

Exalted Champion of Chaos, Mark of Slaanesh, Greatweapon, Shield, Steed of Slaanesh, Bindings of Slaanesh...

This guy can challenge anyone in the unit he combats, wether or not the character is in the fighting rank.

He is particulary helpfull when facing off against those sneaky Skaven Battle Standard Bearer that hides in the back rank, just like he is perfect for charging a flank and dragging that weak little Wizard through the mud and up to his feet.

He can, as I said, help out in combats where he is needed due to his high speed, he then can proceed to challenging and chopping up the Unit Champion to give that extra Combat Resolution.


A meaner form of him is when you use a Lord with the same equipment, but replaces the Greatweapon with a Rending Sword and the Shield with the Enchanted one.

He will rack up 6+ Combat resolution in NO time, doing D3 wounds per wound... hubba hubba

(this might not have any big relevance since I might have posted this before, but, it helped in bumping the thread :angel: )

Chris_Tzeentch
11-08-2005, 18:01
I have got a game on Wednesday against a Von Carstein army. I think I am going to struggle a bit because my army is designed to smash through ranks, not slug it out against hordes of undead. I am thinking about going for a very mobile MSU cavalry army (as usual), but this time I might put my general (Tzeentch) on a Chaos Dragon!

Any advice?

New Cult King
21-12-2005, 06:09
I am starting my first Chaos army made up almost entirely of mortals, with maybe a unit of Bloodletters or Screamers (maybe both :D) as a nasty surprise.

I plan to have a solid core of troops, maybe two units of Chaos Warriors, one with HW and Shield, one with two HW. I would also like to run 2 or 3 biggish units of Marauders, one with HW and Shield, one with flails (cos they look so cool), a unit or two of Chaos Hounds, a unit of Knights, a chariot or two, and a mounted Sorceror. If I have points (and money!) spare, I'd love to grab a Hellcannon to round off my force. I like the idea of a Beastherd though, to break up the painting monotony.

What are some opinions on things like Khorngors? Their minis are gorgeous, but would they make good shock troops for a primarily mortal army?

So I ask you, Warlords of Warseer, how do you run your Chaos armies? How do you equip your Lords/Heros for starters? All I know is my Lord will be on a horse, probably carrying an axe.

Latro
21-12-2005, 09:33
What are some opinions on things like Khorngors? Their minis are gorgeous, but would they make good shock troops for a primarily mortal army?

If you're looking for cheap hard-hitting shocktroopers, they'll do you just fine. Paying just 12 pts for 2 strength 6 attacks is a good thing. They're not core, but that only matters if you're running short on special-slots anyway.

If you want the most bang, be it for more bucks ... then I would go for Chaos Warriors. With all the options they have (weapons, chosen, marks) they can be exactly tailered for the job and are absolute monsters in combat.

3 strength 6 attacks (4+ save, 3+ against shooting)

or

4 strength 4 attacks (4+ save, 3+ against shooting)


:cool:

New Cult King
21-12-2005, 11:27
You know what? I might just get a unit for looks sake. I'm into good looking armies even if they aren't all powerful.

Thanks for the info Latro - that's gee'd me up til I get the book :D

Neknoh
19-04-2006, 17:10
Due to a high quantity of newly warped chaos followers, I feel it is time that we put some life back into this thread, and to do so, I decided to ask a question myself.

What are your takes on the tactic of using a Beastlord as a substitue for a Mortal Lord and using an exalted as the general.

I myself use it and he does good, equipped with either the Hellfire or the Chaos Daemonsword, he can be VERY naughty.

ROCKY
19-04-2006, 20:11
A tactic I find valuable is the pairing of dragon ogres with my all cav armies.
A dragon ogre with a GW and light armor can move 7" (as much as your knights), they will have 3 S7 attacks each (so if you run around 4of them thats 12 s7 attacks, tombkings beware!) plus they cause fear have T4 and 4+armor saves, and 4 wounds each, they are definately a welcomed edition to most chaos armies. Now another good weapon of chaos is the almighty hellcannon. excellent range, unbreakable, daemonic, causes terror, and has two forms of attacks: either attacks as a stone thrower, or attacks using a nasty breath weapon. another EVIL tactics are your lovers and children... the spawns. you can gear them up the way you like them for 15points. they are originally only 60points and you can purchase 2for one rare slot. have you ever used firwyrms of Tzeentch? not only do they make good spped bumps, but they are also capable of casting S3 breaths, this will harm units that are lightly armored (zombies, gnoblars, and gobbos).

der_lex
19-04-2006, 21:47
The problem I have with Spawns is that they just don't last very long against shooty armies (which I usually play against. Lizardmen especially wipe them out quickly with their poison shots. I do love the Hellcannon though, it's expensive but unless it misfires and/or you can't aim your way out of a paper bag you'll more than get your points back, since it'll kill anything it hits, and there are very few units that can actually destroy the thing. The only thing people try to do is kill the crew, so it'll rampage into your own units. My solution to this is positioning it on an extreme flank, with only cavalry units or other fast units or flyers near it, which will usually be out of attack range by turn 2. I could always send some doggies back to lure it into the enemy if it really gets out of control. If I don't have the points for a HC, I usually don't take any rare choices at all.

I have two hellcannon-related questions I'd like to throw at you guys, actually (I know I should post it in the rules section, but I'm lazy):

- Do the crew get the 5+ ward save?

- Its rules state that it has 'daemonic attacks' and 'daemonic aura', specifically.
However, it does NOT say that it falls under the 'daemonic' rule. Am I correct in assuming that it is not subject to instability then, since that's a drawback gained from the 'daemonic' rule?

Neknoh
19-04-2006, 22:20
No, the Crew does not benefit from the Daemonic Ward of the Hellcannon, and you are correct, the Hellcannon is not subject to instabillity due it not being mentioned as being Daemonic.

der_lex
19-04-2006, 23:14
and you are correct, the Hellcannon is not subject to instabillity due it not being mentioned as being Daemonic.

Yes, I always assumed that, but I started to doubt it after reading an article on one of the games workshop websites (australia I think) in which the writer started mentioning things about instability checks for the Hellcannon.
Nice going, GW :)

ROCKY
20-04-2006, 00:48
also der-lex, you forgot to mention that the hellcannon can reroll the first scatter dice each turn AND it has 60" range :D

der_lex
20-04-2006, 01:26
Yes, but that still won't help you if you can't aim at all.
I still remember the first time I fielded it. I mis-guessed on the first turn. Mis-guessed on the second turn. On the third turn, I misfired and the cannon rampaged...

Fortunately, it rampaged just in time to say hello to the nice Cold One Riders and saurus champion that were speeding towards me on my flank. My precious one feasted well, and has never again misfired on me since.

Back to tactics...
What have everyone's experiences been with 12-man block of Warriors? I tried that a little while ago since I didn't have enough points for a full 16-man block, and to my surprise they still managed to do rather well and won a couple of combats against larger units.

And what's this 'Marauder wing' tactic that was mentioned on another thread? I assume it's not a new KFC recipe...

ROCKY
20-04-2006, 01:36
it depends on the role really. If you intend to use 12man units as the backbone of your army you will most likely fail. however they can hold flanks and help marauder units and so on. I, in my 4000point messenger of sorrows army, have a surprise unit (a 12 chosen warriors of khorne unit with extra handweapons). this unit has never let me down. my opponents usually ignore this small unit which cost them the game. I usually creep up with them then have my slaaneshi wizard cast his illusion spell on a large and underequiped unit(clanrats, gobbos, empire infantry) and tear them apart with shher numbers of attacks plus this helps me get the charge on them :evilgrin: but Do NOT take small units of nurgle warriors since they are best when the have numbers and strenght so it is easy to fore the enemy to autobreak.

zendral
20-04-2006, 04:27
Hey guys, I just had a few questions for u all. Im a heavy 40k player and big into the 40k version of tzeentch, aka thousand sons.....i started fantasy with tomb kings (cuz i like egyptian stuff) but cant help but want to start tzeentch in fantasy too. Anyway the question: i know in 40k chaos, some god stuff cant be mixed, and pure god armies like thousand sons can get bonuses for being "pure". are there any restrictions or bonuses like this in fantasy chaos? or the daemonic legions for that matter? can i mix god units without penalty and is there any bonus to using nothing but tzeentch stuff in fantasy?.....thanks

Trunks
20-04-2006, 04:36
As long as your general has the mark of chaos undivided, you can mix any of the gods together in your army. The only restriction is on characters, who require a unit with their mark to be present in the army for them to get the mark (so, if you want a Slaanesh hero, you need a slaanesh regiment, but you don't need the hero to get the regiment). If your general has a mark other than the mark of chaos undivided, you can only take troops with your general's mark, the mark of undivided, or no mark at all.

zendral
20-04-2006, 04:39
thanks a lot, my friend told me otherwise...this makes me happy as Im a big tzeentch fan, and i like the restrictions

Neknoh
20-04-2006, 07:06
The Marauder Wing is fairly basic, you use a unit of 10 or 12 Marauders with Flails or Greatweapons along with a Musician in the unit as a detatchment for your larger blocks, it can also deal out hurt to Fast Cavalry and other things, however, it will get blow away by a Heavy Cavalry charge, therefore, it is wise to keep them back slightly so that the cavalry has a closer charge to the big block units front than to the marauder unit, this might result in three things:

1. The cavalry is stranded trying to go after the wing and will get brutally butchered where it stopps.

2. The cavalry plays it safe an barrels into the ranked infantry, who should hold for a turn and then, the marauder wing swings in.

3. The sucker actually manages to charge your wing and breaks through your lines, this is where you have a Beastherd with a Wargor carrying the Greatfang a bit behind your main battle line.

So, you basically use a small unit of Marauders or Chaos Warriors deployed 5 or 6 times 2 to zoom arround the field as one big flanking unit, preferably deployed behind a unit of Chaos knights and to the left or right of a unit of Chaos Warriors.

It is units such as these that make sure your enemy cannot really avoid your Chaos Warriors, the Knights barrel forward, forcing the enemy to turn to one direction, then commed the Chaos Warriors which your enemy will go out of his way to avoid, and it is then that you smack him with the Marauder Wing or something deployed on the other side of the Warriors (Marauder Horsemen or even a large unit of Hounds led by a Mounted Aspiring/Exalted works here)

ROCKY
22-04-2006, 19:21
Another good strategy to have in a chaos army is unpredictability. for instance, in a slaanesh army while you may have a wizard or two usinmg the lore of slaanesh, it may be interesting and useful to have another sorcerer with a different lore that could compliment the other one(s) (for instance in this case the lore of shadows).

Killgore
24-04-2006, 19:41
About Chaos Warriors, which is the best weapon combo?

I like the 3+ save from Shield, hand weapon and armor in combat but does it kill well anouth to justifie the points?

same with Chosen, 2+ save or 3 attacks with 2hth weapons...


as I already have 2 units of Marauders-1 flail unit, 1 shield and armor unit and 2 units of Chaos Warriors both with shield and 1h weapon combo

der_lex
24-04-2006, 20:01
Against opponents with heavily armored/high toughness units, I give my CW's Halberds. Against anything else I give them an additional hand weapon.
I tend to give them shields as well, but only to protect them from missile fire as they're advancing across the battlefield. As soon as they go into CC, they sling it across their back and 'bring out the big guns', since they rarely need more than the 5+ save anyway.

The only exception to the rule above are battles against bretonnians.
If you give your CW's halberds against them, their armor save goes down by one, but their ward save becomes 5+ instead of 6+, which renders that basically useless. That's why I give my CW's an additional hand weapon against Brets, because that way they at least get one more chance to get a hit in...

ROCKY
24-04-2006, 21:31
Regarding chaos warriors, do not forget that they have both S and T of 4 and automatically have heavy armor so even with 2handweapons or gws or halberds they still can survive lesser infantry (s3 and t3) as for chosen I would definately give them halberds or dual weilding, and as Der Lex pointed out, shields are always a great choice to deflect arrows and such and then whip out the big guns when you get close. as for brettonians, I agree again with derlex, it is safer to land sheer amount of hits than few powerful hits which will give him a 5+wardsave. 5chosen with 2handweapons = 16hits (with the champ of the unit). he is bound to fail a couple which will cripple his knights (since after the 1st round of combat he goes back to S3 or 4 depending on which knight unit)

Killgore
24-04-2006, 23:04
thankee for advice, i am now gluing together a unit of Chosen with 2Hand weapons

der_lex
24-04-2006, 23:26
Another small note: due to the nature of Chaos, which is that most of the units that we have available to us are quite pricey, one of our biggest weaknesses is the small size of our army. because of this reason, I (and quite a few other Chaos players) think that Chosen Warriors are not really worth their rather large point costs in games of 2000 points or smaller. It basically gives your enemy one expensive, relatively unit to shoot/ cast at, and when it's out of the game a lot of the strength of your army is gone. It's basically putting all your eggs in one basket. Therefore i'd strongly advise you not to upgrade CW's to Chosen in games of 2000 points or smaller. The upgrade points are much better spent on fleshing out the rest of your army a bit more.

The Chosen upgrade for Knights is a wholly different matter, since it gives you a very lethal unit that's very hard to kill and can be (and should be) in combat on the second turn. Just be very wary of attacks that ignore armor saves, and be careful that you don't bite off more than you can chew (if you don't get in enough kills, rank bonuses and such can send even our faithful Chosen running). Combine your charge with a flank charge of some marauder Horsemen, Hounds, or other fast units, and there should be nothing left once the first round of combat is over (insert bloodthirsty cheers here).

ROCKY
26-04-2006, 01:36
Another important factor in a chaos army is coordiantion. learn how to relate your main offence (warriors, knights) with supporting role units (chariots (in most cases) and hounds, beastherds,etc).

Reign in Blood
26-04-2006, 10:06
I don't know where to start...and thats my problem. I tried making a list but after going over this thread I will definately be changing what I have done. I am thinking of making a 2000 to 2500pt Slaanesh Mortals and Deamons army. this will be my first venture away from 40k. My understanding of the troops (Core and Special) isnt really a problem but choosing my Lords and Heroes are. I have absolutely no experience fielding magic users-In my SM army I don't even use a Librarian, just so you know how little my experience is even though I am aware it is quite different. Since Slaanesh magic is very powerful and considered by many to be one of the best and a must have for a Slaanesh army, I am having trouble incorporating that into my ideas. Also how will it effect my original plans of having a CC monster of a Lord (not literally) without diminishing the rest of the army? Apart from choosing what lords and heroes to put in the army there is also what to equip them with? What are some good combos? Finally How many should I have nd how many is to many?

In regards to some tactics with Knights they suggested on a tactica guide on the GW website about using warhounds or fast cavalry as a shield for the Knights but how do they get out of the way? Or should I just ignore everything that tactica guide said? Thanks in advance...

der_lex
26-04-2006, 11:30
First of all, welcome to the Hordes. You can get a free cookie from the followers of Khorne over there, and if you feel like having a third arm or something, come talk to Tzeentchians like myself.

About your army... The sheer choice of Chaos can be quite overwhelming at first, so my first advice would be to limit your choices to mortals and daemons right now. You can make a great list without beasts, and once you've gotten the hang of the game a bit you can always add them as well.

Second advice: Chaos Lords and Champions are very powerful, but they're also very expensive. New players tend to spend too many of their points on characters and subsequently their relatively small army is easily outmaneuvered and destroyed. Try not to go overboard on characters, unless you really want to go for the magic-heavy (ie a sorcerer lord and two L2 sorcerers) approach.

Lords are generally regarded as being too expensive for 2k games (Tzeentch lords are an odd exception to that. They're the most expensive of the lot, but you really need one, even in a small list). You can basically take two exalted champs instead of a single lord, which is usually a preferable option.
Exalted champions are still more than a match for anything except for a vampire count or a properly tooled up dwarf lord.

Aspiring Champions are usually not worth taking (you can bump them up to exalted for only 20 points) unless you want a Battle Standard bearer (BSB).
I usually take one, since Chaos leadership is pretty average, but others might disagree with me on that choice.

I have little to no experience with Exalted Daemons and daemon princes. I know they're really expensive, and that they're relatively vulnerable since they only get a ward save. Maybe someone else (Neknoh, I'm looking at you, mate) can give you some advice on using them.


As far as magic is concerned, you don't have to focus on it. Not even in a Slaanesh list. You have plenty of fast troops and characters that are immune to psychology (which is a really big deal in Fantasy) and can bring on the hurt without the need for magical backup.
What you will want to take is at least one measly level 1 sorcerer with two dispel scrolls, better known as a scroll caddy. because sadly enough, you can do without magic in Fantasy, but not without magic defense.
If you do plan on taking magic, take at least two L2 sorcerers, possibly with a sorcerer lord as your general. It's expensive, but you will pretty much own the magic phase and use the enemy as your puppet. If you still want a hitty character (or just a nasty surprise for challenge-happy opponents), give your wizard lord a Daemonblade, and pray that you don't roll too many 1's.

Some interesting kit combo's for Slaaneshi characters:

Lord of slaanesh + mount of slaanesh + Pendant of Slaanesh + Blade of Blood
(The pendant gives you an extra attack for every wound you take, the blade gives you an extra wound for every wound you cause. Bring on the pain!)

Lord of Slaanesh + mount of Slaanesh + Bindings of Slaanesh + Chaos Runeshield
(the ultimate character killer... the target can't refuse the challenge, and his magical items don't work. Very few characters will hold their own against a Chaos Lord with just their bare stats)

any character + chariot + berserker sword
(Chariot base size + berserker sword = lots of extra attacks (try charging into things on larger bases, like rat Ogres or so). The helmet of many eyes will allowe you to strike first even when charged (very nice if those STR7 kroxigors come charging in) but your mark of Slaanesh won't make you immune to its stupidity, so be careful with that)

Generally useful magical items not mentioned above: Whip of Slaanesh, Gaze of the Gods, Crown of Domination, Armour of Damnation, Rending Sword.

As for shielding units with hounds... You don't want to put the hounds directly between you and the unit you want to attack, but between you and possible shooting. If you plance them in a slightly diagonal position, your knights will still be able to see and charge the opposing unit. If need be, do a doomed-to-fail charge with the hounds to get them out of the way.

I hope that cleared things up at least a little bit... If not, just ask more questions in here, we're always happy to answer them.

Reign in Blood
26-04-2006, 12:27
That was quite fast and in depth. Thanks heaps, I really needed that. Just so you know, it is all being taken into account.

One more question: I don't really like Marauders (on horses or not) so I am mainly going to go with Warriors, Knights, Hounds(probably not so much) and Chariots. This leaves fast cavalry out of the army. What I put lots of mounted Deamonettes in, will that fill the void of that role? Further more, the importance of this role has been mentioned in passing quite a lot so any general tactics would help.

Cheers.(Sorry for being such a newbie)

der_lex
26-04-2006, 15:44
No problem, I don't seem to get any proper work done today anyway. :D

First of all, what is it you don't like about Marauders? If it's the models, you could always do some nice conversions that 'count as'. There's tons of conversion ideas for slaaneshi cultists, most of which involve female models and at least partial nudity. ;)

The problem is that Marauders are a unique thing in a Chaos army: a cheap rank and file unit. If you don't take either Marauders or a Beastherd, you'll be left with an army that has no cannon fodder other than your Hounds, and they don't last very long. One or two 16-20 man block of Marauders on foot with armor and shields will be able to hold their own quite nicely (they still have WS4, after all) and really protect you from being outnumbered. If you don't take Marauders or a Herd, every unit you lose will be a major blow to your army, since they're all expensive units.
Marauder Horsemen are indispensible since they're the only 'true' fast cav unit available to Chaos.

Mounted Daemonettes (MD) are an awesome unit, but they can't really replace fast cav. Why, you ask? Three words: Immune to Psychology.
While this is usually an asset, it's something you don't want in fast cav, since it means they won't be able to flee as a charge response, which is somethign you want them to do. Often.

Fast cavalry is usually used for three things:

- March Blocking. Put a fast cav unit on your opponent's flank, and suddenly he can't march anymore. This should royally screw up his advance, although he'll probably try to shoot the fast cav as soon as he can. The MD can still do this, although it seems like a bit of a waste to have them on the sidelines.

- Flanking. A joint charge between two cavalry units can break up most infantry blocks, especially if one of the two cav units consists of Chosen Knights. MD are awesome for this, since they hit quite hard.

- Baiting. This is the main purpose of fast cav, in my opinion. You basically park the fast cav in front of an enemy unit, and wait for them to charge it. If they do so, you flee, leaving them with a failed charge, which should be your way of setting them up for a countercharge of your own with the harder units that were behind your fast cav. The fast cav itself uses its free move after rallying (the cool ability that only fast cav have, and for this purpose) to get into a flanking position.
Should your opponent ignore the obvious bait, he's still march blocked AND will have the fast cav unit slamming into his side or rear whenever he does enter combat. because they can't flee, MD cannot do this. The ultimate Chaos fast cav is still a block of 5 or 6 Marauder Horsemen with flails and a musician (to help them rally). It doesn't make sense to give them any further upgrade, since fast cav units are meant to be cheap and sacrificial. Don't give them throwing axes either, since those have the range and impact of a badly folded paper airplane.

On another side note, you might want to include a unit of Furies in your army as well. Flyers can be very useful to deal with pesky mages and war machine crew before they can do too much damage...

Good luck!

Reign in Blood
26-04-2006, 16:06
Thanks for all the advice, its been a huge help. I will try and get a list up tommorow(today for me, damn time zones). Then you can see if your words of wisdom have actually made a difference (I rekon they have, but we will see). Thanks again.:D

MarcoPollo
27-04-2006, 04:16
Just a note on mounted demonettes. They are a very fagile and none too cheap unit. They work best at running down a fairly unguarded flank. They only have T3 so keep them out of range of archers. Sure a 5+ ward save helps but not that much. I usually only engage them in the 4th or 5th turn to get a rear charge or a flank. If I have to I can usually charge a unit of archers to distract their shooting for a turn, but stand and shoot can be pretty hard on these guys. It takes alot of skill and patience and their charge is usually the coup de grace for my games. Flyers like screamers are better at taking out or harassing archers due to skirmishing and 2 wounds each.

Reign in Blood
27-04-2006, 05:48
Just thought you might be interested in my list and your oppinions would be most welcome.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=633751#post633751
(I hope that works)
Cheers.

ironhorn
15-05-2006, 18:58
hello fellow followers,

in the border princess campaign we are playing, i recently made this orcs and goblins player mad at me by setting fire to his breeding place (special territory on the map that gives him a bonus)

offcourse now he wants revenge, so can anyone give me some hints/tips on how to beat the greenskin?

i play a chaos undevided/undecided army that has a mortal core, but mixed for the rest

we'll be playing 1500 point battles with some added support (200 points of core troops, most likely multiple support on both sides)

Neknoh
15-05-2006, 19:42
Hrmm... It would be of great help if you could inform us on what your army consist of, and what you are expecting to face, for there's a certain difference between a Night Gobbo army, a Gobbo Army, a Snotling Horde, an Ardboyz list, an orc army and an Orcs and Gobblins army.

So, what army are you expecting to face and what do you have at your disposal young Aspiring?

Your Mum Rang
15-05-2006, 20:29
How well do the HOC work at small points values like 400-750pts?

ironhorn
15-05-2006, 21:17
Hrmm... It would be of great help if you could inform us on what your army consist of, and what you are expecting to face, for there's a certain difference between a Night Gobbo army, a Gobbo Army, a Snotling Horde, an Ardboyz list, an orc army and an Orcs and Gobblins army.

So, what army are you expecting to face and what do you have at your disposal young Aspiring?

a regular mixed army (with almost certainly a giant, a unit of black orcs, lead by a black orc hero thing and some night goblins with fanatics)

kyussinchains
15-05-2006, 22:11
a regular mixed army (with almost certainly a giant, a unit of black orcs, lead by a black orc hero thing and some night goblins with fanatics)

personally I'd say to take plenty of warhounds to draw out the fanatics early on, mounted marauders (optional on the throwing axes, but they're handy for mopping up the occasional fanatic that wont seem to die, they're also nice for charging in against those big units of goblins to remove their rank bonuses) and I'm sure plenty of people wont agree with me on this one, but I'd personally go for a couple of large (20+) units of warriors with the mark of nurgle, not chosen, equipped with sheilds, each with a big tough champion in them, the fear will help you break through the tougher, smaller units, and will hopefully stop the goblins charging in, once you start panicking them, you've won.

Spawns are good for bogging weak units down for a few turns, so aim a couple at the big units of goblins, then get your hard hitters in there. Furies are always worth having to take out those potentially dangerous war machines, and also help stop big units of black orcs marching towards you.

I'd avoid knights myself, they're too expensive and a huge point sink

There are loads more options, I've always found my chaos armies do well against orcs and goblins!

Neknoh
16-05-2006, 20:48
Ok, both Nurgle and Khorne would be extremely helpful aggainst a force like this, do you play any of the two?

MarcoPollo
16-05-2006, 20:50
well, if you know that he is going to be taking some fanatics, I think you should go into ambush with a beastlord. Get 4 units of hounds into ambush and watch those nasty guystart hitting his line. Just sit back and let the VP start to pile up.

ironhorn
16-05-2006, 20:59
can't play with a beastmen general, since i'm using the chaos mortal rules and stuff (and my army is built around a mortal core ^^)

i play undevided so i can mix up all the marks (i started off with nurgle, but leaning more to slaanesh now, but nurgle would give me a good thing against these greenskins, so i'll try it for sure)

Neknoh
16-05-2006, 21:02
With nurgle, don't try to outnumber him in one on one combats, go for non-chosen Knights if that gives you more knights than you would get if they were chosen, however, largeish Warrior Blocks work well.

With Nurgle, you do not need a Mortal Lord, an Exalted Champion with the Blade of Blood will quickly turn into a 6 wound monster, throw in an Exalted Daemon with the Stream of Corruption to fly arround and puke on his units and you should be set.

Also, remember, Furies, Warhounds, Marauder Horsemen, Beastherds, anything to draw out those Fanatics.

And last of all, Nurglings youre friends

ice
23-05-2006, 08:52
FINALLY A TACTICS THREAD! (i made one in the disscusion then found this one) I'm just starting a Chaos army, i've decided on Slaanesh, any pointers on what to take?

Neknoh
23-05-2006, 12:52
What do you want? Mostly cavalry, mostly infantry, a fine mixture or lots of big gribblies?

Slaaneshian magic is also essential for a well played Slaaneshi army, I'd suggest at least 4 levels of it in games of 2k.

kyussinchains
23-05-2006, 19:50
slaanesh works best with a combination of mobility (fast daemonettes on steeds, quick moving spawns) magic (the lore of slaanesh is excellent) and hard hitting power (knights/warriors with rapturous standard spring to mind)

They're not a grinding army like nurgle, they're not an all out offensive army like khorne, and they're not a seer council army like tzeentch.

Slaanesh works best by using fast cavalry and magic to disrupt your enemy, then charging in to finish him off with your knights and daemons.

Use marauders, mounted preferably, to draw out charges and prevent marching, blocks of marauders on foot provide good rank bonus and are cheap.

Daemonettes on steeds are like greased lightning, they can get stuck into the flanks (especially weaker infantry units) really quick, and are tough enough to do plenty of hurt.

I'd take something like

lord with pendant of slaanesh and blade of blood
exalted on steed of slaanesh with berserker sword + enchanted shield
2 sorcerers, one with scrolls, one with power familiar

2 units of 5-6 mounted marauders
1-2 units of 20+ marauders
6-8 knights of slaanesh with rapturous standard
2-3 units of 6 chaos hounds
6-8 mounted damonettes
2 spawns of slaanesh

in larger games, I'd probably take a sorcerer lord with the daemon sword and talisman of protection, riding a barded steed (at least he gets a 5+ armour save and a 6+ ward against his own sword) he'll be a monster in combat, but also be a powerful addition to your army's magical offense. Backed up with a block of warriors (or two smallish flanking units) and if you can stretch to it, a couple of chariots.

You can obviously tailor certain aspects of this army to certain opponents, and adding beast units can only strengthen the force, I've just opted for a more 'purist' approach!

Hope that helps

ice
23-05-2006, 22:29
for my lord in a 2000+ game i was going to have him mounted on a steed of slaanesh, and to clarify the army was going to be mostly mortals.

the_night_reaper
23-05-2006, 22:34
I run a couple beast herds in my slaanesh army with bray shamans in them and they're just incredible. You have to keep them close to the general though or they'll run from shooting and such. The protection they give the bray shaman is awesome and surprisingly so is their combat ability. Don't forget you can use the bray shaman in the front rank with his great weapon (bray staff).

Pravus
24-05-2006, 16:13
Just some thoughts on the Lord of Slaanesh, Blade of Blood/Pendant of Slaanesh combo:

Whilst very potent on paper, this combo requires planning and forethought to use well - it can be a one man avalanche* if used correctly. So with that in mind, here's my top tips:

1. Mobility is key. This lord combo needs to be in combat as quickly as possible to get the most out of him. The obvious choice to provide him with mobility is a Steed of Slaanesh, but I would suggets that is actually the worst option for him. The Steed makes your lord an easy target and the Steed is easy to kill with standard archery. If you lose the first turn you could end up walking for the rest of the battle. A chaos dragon has similar problems but is infinitely tougher but obviously a bucket load of points. I would suggest your best options are:

A chaos steed and an accompnaying unit of knights or marauder horsemen.
A chaos chariot
Magical propulsion - steed of shadows and other movement spells; also, think in reverse - bring the enemy towards you with titillating delusions.

2. Target selection. A bad-ass mutha-hubbard your chaos lord maybe, but static combat resolution will beat him most of the time if he's on his own. You can't charge him into a unit of 25 empire spearmen alone and expect him to win - at least not until the avalanche effect* kicks in. If he's in a unit with ranks and command (or a lot of killing potential) he's fine - on his own you need to locate something soft and squishy for him to kill. Archers, detachments and already engaged units are your best bet.

Elements to look for in a target include toughness 3, armour save of 5+ or worse and a US of <= 12. Once he's acquired more wounds and attacks he can move on to meatier targets but always try to have him involved in a combat once he gets going.

I'll be honest with you, after playing with this combo for a while I found it to be too high maintenance, constantly having to monitor his progress around the board. That said, there has never been a moment like it when my lord finished the game with 18 attacks and 5 wounds ...

der_lex
24-05-2006, 16:26
The problem with sticking him in a Knight unit is that your opponent can simply choose to attack the knights and not the lord, and see the lord off in combat resolution. You do want that Lord to get hit, after all. Marauder horsemen are possibly even worse, since they will drop like flies if your enemies can hit them back. I'd sooner put a unit of MH or mounted daemonettes in front of the lord during the deployment phase, so you can use them as a screen and for a frontal charge while your lord charges the flank (or vice versa, for rank negation). I agree with putting him on a normal mount, since otherwise the opponent will simply hit your demon mount in cc instead of your lord.

Otherwise you make some good points, although I for one actually like a 'high maintenance' unit. It adds some spice to the relatively straightforward tactics of a Chaos army.

Pravus
24-05-2006, 16:47
Actually, with the blade of blood he doesn't need to get hit at all. On a six he actually takes a wound from the blade because of the strength test he has to take for every wound he causes, giving him and extra attack. That's why its an avalanche effect. The more wounds he causes, the more tests he has to take on the blade of blood. The more tests he takes the more likely he is to fail his strength test and gain an attack, leading him to cause even more wounds. And so the cycle continues.

I wouldn't worry about the marauders dying in combat - if you're using them right you'll be charging thus hitting first and hopefully in the flank too. Between flail wielding marauders (because you'll be taking flails) and a chaos lord there's unlikely to be many if any attacks back. Shooting, however, can be a problem. A lord can't remove flanks alone either, unless he's in a chariot or mounted on a dragon, so he needs to be in a unit to make the flank charge count

hunter4925
24-05-2006, 19:17
This is somethng that I have been using in my gmaing roups for a while now, but my Slaanesh army has been employing Dogs of WAr Dwarf Crossbowmen and a Cannon. Both have been converted to be Chaos DWarves. This option adds some serious shooting ower to the lack luster firepower of the Chaos List. I used the new Dwarf thunders box to convert my unit of Chaos Dwarves wih crossbows and used the dwarves fom he hellcannon as my crew for the DOW cannon. I have received many complements of my Dwarves an have yet to get one comment of cheese from anyone due to the fact of my converting them to fit the theme. There is nothing like taking on a Dwarf thunder army and shooting his thunders first turn with my crossbows to cover the advace of my Knights/Mounted Daemonettes/Giant/LOrd on Dragon/whatever.

der_lex
24-05-2006, 23:57
I wouldn't worry about the marauders dying in combat - if you're using them right you'll be charging thus hitting first and hopefully in the flank too. Between flail wielding marauders (because you'll be taking flails) and a chaos lord there's unlikely to be many if any attacks back.

Against most opponents, yes, bu if you play against Dwarves as often as I do, you learn to assume that despite your best efforts, something will always be left to hit back.


As far as DoW are concerned, it's a matter of personal taste. Your conversion certainly sounds cool, but I still think that Chaos shouldn't be able to have a good shooting phase, for game balance's sake. That is only my opinion though, and people should always field what they want to field. That, and nothing can persuade me to give up my trusty Hellcannon... Last night, even though the crew got shot, my marauder horsemen dutifully brought it to the enemy line, where it munched down on his units and almost managed to kill a Runelord and his Anvil of Doom. Good times. :D

the_night_reaper
25-05-2006, 01:39
how about using blade of blood, pendant of slaanesh and book of secrets? This way you can choose shadow lore and fly yourself around?

Neknoh
25-05-2006, 10:42
A good idea, although, I much prefer the Pendant of Slaanesh, Crown of Everlasting Conquest combo, give him a Hallberd and you have yourself one of the greatest Ogre Munchers out there, of course, a Greatweapon makes him more evil but more of a risk as well.

The combo works as follows:

Charge the Lord into a unit of Ogre-sized creatures (except for Trolls), he will now utilise his 5 attacks to kill aproximately 1 of the Ogres, your opponent will then have 1 ogre (or 2 if he's mounted on a Steed of Slaanesh or a Daemonic Steed), which should be strong enough to cause at least one wound, you will now gain one attack permanently.

Then, before combat resolution, you take your regeneration roll(s), remember, that even if he gets pummeled by 6 wounds, he only ever have to manage to regenerate one of them to get back up and discount that and any excess wounds caused from the Combat Resolution aggainst him.

Next round, he will strike at the Ogre-sized unit with at least 6 attacks.
This is the risky part of a Greatweapon though, seeing as the enemy ogres might be able to chop him to bits before he gets to strike, although, he would gain additional attacks from the wounds and he wouldn't get massive ammounts of CR aggainst him, but, you would have to sacrifice a unit in order to free him from the Ogres.

Once that is done though, he might well have only 1 or 2 wounds on his profile, but, he will have a LOT of attacks and should be able to bring down R&F units on the charge unless challenged.

kyussinchains
25-05-2006, 12:18
Then, before combat resolution, you take your regeneration roll(s), remember, that even if he gets pummeled by 6 wounds, he only ever have to manage to regenerate one of them to get back up and discount that and any excess wounds caused from the Combat Resolution aggainst him.


er... I'm pretty sure that you have to regenerate at LEAST 4 of those wounds, otherwise regeneration is insanely powerful! if a 1 wound model suffers 6 wounds, you still have to regenerate all 6 for him to survive, not just one, regenerated wounds dont count for combat result, but un regenerated wounds do.

if you suffered 6 wounds and managed to regenerate 4, you would still give away a combat result of 2.

unless I'm misunderstanding your point entirely, in that case, ignore me

kyussinchains
25-05-2006, 12:22
oh yeah, and if he takes enough wounds to kill him, he doesnt get to attack, he counts as 'dead' until the end of the phase, obviously this is if he is 'killed' before he gets to attack

Neknoh
25-05-2006, 14:04
kyussinchains, if you take 6 wounds and regenerate 1, you WOULD stand back up, this is what makes Regeneration insanely more expensive than 4+ Wardsaves, even if it can be negated by Fire.

Then, only 2 wounds would count towards combat Resolution, becuase Excess wounds (the remaining 3 that for CR purposes where made into thin air) does not.

Yes, if he takes enough wounds to kill him before Regeneration, he doesn't get to attack, therefore, the Greatweapon is more of a risk due to him striking last in subsequent rounds of Close Combat, hence, I prefer a Hallberd with this combo, strength 6 is sufficient to butcher any Ogre-sized unit (of course, Treekin can be of some nuiscance)

ice
25-05-2006, 18:17
J
A bad-ass mutha-hubbard your chaos lord maybe
how'd you know that was my last name :wtf:
thanks for the tips btw

kyussinchains
25-05-2006, 18:46
so are you saying that you would get back up with however many wounds you regenerated? because where do the excess go? you CAN go into negative wounds, if you have 3 wounds and suffer 6, you are at -3 wounds, you have to regenerate 4 of those wounds to get back up

The warhammer rule book (page 83) states

"once all attacks for that phase have been made, the creature may try to regenerate, roll a d6 for each wound suffered during that phase. if a 4 or more is rolled, that wound is regenerated. You may only try to regenerate any single wound once. Any regenerated wounds are reinstated and models removed as casualties are replaced if enough wounds are regenerated"

pay attention to that last line, "if enough wounds are regenerated"

so it's not that you have to regenerate 'at least one'

you have to regenerate 'enough so that you have wounds left'

so if you have a 3 wound troll who suffers 6 wounds, then you MUST regenerate at least 4 for the troll to survive, if he suffers a further 6 wounds, he must regenerate ALL of them to survive.

your interpretation is illogical, regeneration being better the more wounds you suffer, if you take 10 wounds, you are much more likely to get at least one successful roll, if you are only wounded once, it's a 50/50 chance

Neknoh
25-05-2006, 19:32
You are forgetting the fact that a model cannot SUFFER more wounds than it has on its profile unless in a challenge, I am pretty sure it states that as well under the rules for regeneration.

A cannon that rolls 6 fo its numbers of wounds would still only cause 2 wounds on a Hero-level character and 3 wounds on a Chaos Lord of Slaanesh, meaning that you only would have to regenerate one wound to stand back up with 2 wounds less on your profile (which would be the only wounds counting towards him in the CR).

kyussinchains
25-05-2006, 20:03
You are forgetting the fact that a model cannot SUFFER more wounds than it has on its profile unless in a challenge, I am pretty sure it states that as well under the rules for regeneration.

A cannon that rolls 6 fo its numbers of wounds would still only cause 2 wounds on a Hero-level character and 3 wounds on a Chaos Lord of Slaanesh, meaning that you only would have to regenerate one wound to stand back up with 2 wounds less on your profile (which would be the only wounds counting towards him in the CR).

if you cannot suffer more wounds than you have on your profile, if you take 5 wounds, why make 5 armour saves when you only need to make one?

as I said, although not the most logical of companies, GW would not make a rule which so obviously works better the more damage you take.

If you read the rulebook quote it specifically (and I did quote verbatim) says that models are restored if ENOUGH wounds are regenerated, it does not say that a model is restored if a single wound is regenerated. And anyway, the heart stone of darkness is 45 points for a 4+ ward, the crown of everlasting conquest is only 50 points, hardly THAT much more expensive.

think about it, if you have a troll fighting my massively tooled up ogre tyrant, the troll is on 1 wound, if I just do 1 or 2 attacks on the troll, the chances are far less of you regenerating a single wound, than if I go all out and cause 5 wounds on the troll.

it does not make logical sense, and it's not the letter of the rulebook, I'm no rules lawyer, but your interpretation of the rules makes regenerating creatures SERIOUSLY hard, it even says in the rule description that "troops that are able to can regenerate damage if not too badly hurt" I think that taking 6 wounds is pretty badly hurt!

it doesnt state anything about not being able to suffer more wounds than on it's profile, I could quote the entire rule here, but I'm pretty sure the forum has rules about that sort of thing (GW gets a bit upset)

If you think about it, that would be one rule for regeneration in terms of challenges and overkill, and another for non challenges.

Also, if you're not able to suffer more wounds than you have left on your profile, then surely you cant roll more dice for regeneration than wounds on your profile?

Latro
25-05-2006, 20:40
It's in the FAQ, a model can not suffer more wounds than it has on it's profile ... which makes regeneration very handy to have.

:cool:

kyussinchains
25-05-2006, 20:42
sorry to rant on about this in a public thread, this will be my last post on the matter

rule book page 39 states under the '0 level characteristics' heading:

"if at any time a model's strength, toughness or wounds are reduced to 0 or below, it is considered slain and removed from play"

indicating that your wounds characteristic CAN drop BELOW zero and that you would have to regenerate enough wounds to bring it back above zero

Neknoh
25-05-2006, 22:00
Always look on the bright side of life (http://uk.games-workshop.com/news/errata/assets/wh/rulebook.pdf)

Page 3, middle collumn at the top

kyussinchains
25-05-2006, 22:13
well, not having access to that particular FAQ kinda hampered me there.

My god that is so utterly illogical, any extra wounds you do just give you more chances to regenerate...

You're right, but still....

I'll be using the crown of everlasting conquest a bit more in future!

Neknoh
25-05-2006, 22:24
The reason regeneration "only" costs 50 pts is that it can be destroyed by fire, Wardsaves cannot, and, if you manage to pass a 4+ Wardsave aggainst a cannon, you don't loose any wounds, whilst you have to regenerate 3 wounds in order to avoid loosing wounds after the cannonball has hit you.
Also, regeneration cannot be used aggainst Killingblow.

My guess would be that without Fire destruction and with the abillity to regenerate Killingblows, Regeneration would cost over 70 pts.

Glad we sorted that out, we can now proceed to keep giving advice to Aspiring Champions from all over the wastes of Chaos, of course, converted ones from the Empire, Bretonnia or any other of the weakling lands are also welcome to our camp of darkness.

Brush your teeth
26-05-2006, 09:39
ok, im currently considering a mortal chaos nurgle army and i have few questions

1) how many models should i ideally be taking in a unit because the 12 you get in a box seems far to small but 20 man units are pretty expensive

2) how many infantry blocks should i aim to get in 2000pts (roughly, also im aiming for a mostly warrior army with few marauders if thats possible)

3) are there any reccomended wargear options for nurgles hero's lords?

3) can the archaons horde list be used with the whole army having MoN as im trying to save points by getting free commands.

4) with the hordes of chaos army book (and this may seem like a stupid question) where does it say which units are special and which units are core?! do mortal units count as core and deamonic as special? (meaning knights, chariots etc are core?)

thanks in advance for any help given
cheers

Latro
26-05-2006, 11:01
1) Since you mentioned getting the free command groups from the SoC list you would have to take units of 16+ warriors ... so 16 would be a good number to use.

2) Don't think of your army as a number of units ... think of them in teams. Each infantry block should have at least one support unit to either provide more kills (example: chariot) or flank-support (example: marauder horsemen). A good reliable infantry-line should have at least 3 combat-teams, that way you can cover most of the battle-field and put a lot of pressure on your opponent.

3) If you plan on using your characters in units that receive the charge you might want to go a bit more defensive, if they're meant to do the charging themselves you could go a bit more offensive in gear ... but it's all personal taste. The wound-regenerating weapons do combine quite nicely with their higher amount of wounds though.

3 again) Yes.

4) Read the part about chosing the Chaos General. This explains that your choice of General dictates which units become core and special. In short:

- Mortal General: mortal = core, daemon/beast = special, rare = rare
- Daemon General: daemon = core, mortal/beast = special, rare = rare
- Beast General: beast = core, mortal/daemon = special, rare = rare

Good luck with your list!

:cool:

Brush your teeth
26-05-2006, 11:44
cheers, ive whipped up a list here (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37016)
not sure how well it would do so i'd appreciate opinions on it

thanks

Neknoh
26-05-2006, 15:08
As I was unable to respond to your initial post due to a powercut after half my reply was written, I'll take the response now (disregarding the question on Core etc. seeing as Latro allready answered that).

The Archaons Horde list is indeed viable, however, not tournament legal at the Games Day tournaments, so, IMHO, you should go for a normal Mortal army with support in the form of Daemons and perhaps also beasts.

When fielding Chaos Warriors, blocks of 16 makes for nice units, however, this is not the case for Nurgle, to make the most out of the mark, Nurgle units should be fielded in units of 20 with Full Command, sure, this costs a hefty 380 pts a piece, but, you shouldn't really need to go for a lot of characters when using Nurgle.

Chosen Knights of Nurgle are just plain ineffective, they cost way to much for what they do, however, small units of 4 to 6 non-chosen Knights will work wonders once you manage to coordinate attacks between them and your Warriors, just be sure not to field any command with the knights except for the occasional musician.

Marauder Horsemen will also work very good in a supporting role, even if they don't cause fear.

Nurglings will make for a perfect flank-guard that will also be able to disrupt your opponents battle plan greatly, for once you charge them into a unit that is in combat with either your knights or your Warriors, things will start to hurt for the opponent as your Warriors will be nigh impossible to strike down.

Characters in the armies of Nurgle are very good at staying allive, remember that an Exalted Champion with the Mark of Nurgle is more than a match for any enemy lord out there barring Blood Dragons and Ogre Tyrants, so, a humble Exalted to lead your army should actually be enough.

Furies would be very nice to field, they can devastate your opponents magic and shooting phase by simply killing anything they have in the ways of shooting or spellcasting, however, you could do without them if you can't find the points.

So, something along the lines of 3 units of 20 Warriors with Full Command and the Mark of Nurgle as well as the basic setup of Sword and Shield, 1 unit of 5 Marauder Horsemen with Flails and Musician used mainly for flanking, 2 units of 4 or 5 Knights of Nurgle with Musicians to flank or work together, remember, you add up the total Fear causing Unit Strength, meaning that a unit of these would add either 8 or 10 to the US of your Warriors when calculating Autobreak. Throw in a unit of Nurglings and perhaps a Spawn together with an exalted Champion or two, both armed with Hallberds or Greatweapons, perhaps even both mounted to go with one unit of Knights each?

That's all for me, Nurgle Magic can be good, but, when basing the army on Fear, it becommes far to expensive

Latro
26-05-2006, 15:53
cheers, ive whipped up a list here (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37016)
not sure how well it would do so i'd appreciate opinions on it

thanks

In my opinion Nurgle (mortals) in it's current form is not very viable for creating a very effective army. Due to the ability of it's Mark and the cost, it's never going to result in something that really works well:

An army based on fear-causers wants to do one of the following:

- Have large units to take advantage of the auto-break rule. Unfortunately, units of Chaos Warriors are a wee bit on the expensive side for that. To reliably outnumber the enemy your units would have to be US 20+ ... which severely limits the number of units you can afford.

- Have a lot of units which cause fear so the enemy will be forced to make a lot of tests each turn. Unfortunately, giving the Mark to a lot of units also means you will have to pay those 50 pts for it a lot of times ... once again not a very effective use of points.

At the moment I see Nurgle more as an excuse to create a nice fluffy and themed army instead of something to inspire fear with in they eyes of your opponent.

... which is why I'm also thinking about creating one, just because they look great.


Conclusion: Using Nurgle troops does allow you to field some very effective combinations (see the comments of Neknoh) that will be almost unbeatable when fighting on it's own terms ... but! Due to it's cost the army as a whole will have a very hard time to force the enemy to actually fight on those terms:

- not enough or too weak support units

- big and scary as they might be, the Nurgle Warriors are still surprisingly vulnerable to a charge by a dedicated hammer-unit


:cool:

Latro
26-05-2006, 16:04
As an example, here is the Nurgle army I am planning on doing once I have finished my Khorne army:

Sorcerer of Nurgle + Chariot ... great centre-piece!

Asp Champion leading
15 Chaos Warriors (full command, shield)

Asp Champion leading
15 Chaos Warriors (full command, shield)

12 Chosen of Nurgle (full command, halberd, shield)

5/10 Herd (champ, musician) ... zombie conversions!
5/10 Herd (champ, musician)

4 Beasts of Nurgle
2 Nurglings

- I tried to make it as Nurglesque as possible without actually wasting too much points on actual Marks.

- The army as a whole is meant to function as a large shambling mass of rotting infantry.

- I put a lot of effort into making sure the enemy is very limited in it's options to hinder my advance ... (the Herds and Beasts of Nurgle are great to keep enemy skirmishers/flyers/scouts from getting too close)

:cool:

Neknoh
26-05-2006, 16:07
There's a simple way of making that army much more effective, first of all, remove the Chosen Warriors alltogether and replace them with a unit of Marauders, a large one preferably.

The Warriors don't need Aspiring Champions to be effective, they would do fine without any supportive heroes. Remove the Aspiring Champions in favour of normal Warriors.

Enlargen the two herds and add a Bray Shaman of Nurgle in each of them, this will make for very effective an nasty units (you could go for 1 Bray and 1 Wargor though).

A unit of Knights or Minotaurs would help a lot in dealing with enemy armour and be used as a flanker, as would a unit of Marauder Horsemen. A third Nurgling Base would make that unit oh so much more viable.

Latro
26-05-2006, 17:27
There's a simple way of making that army much more effective, first of all, remove the Chosen Warriors alltogether and replace them with a unit of Marauders, a large one preferably.

Normally I would agree with you on this, large Marauder units (with smaller elite Chaos Warrior units in support) work better. I made this list to finally make use of the numerous unused warrior boxes I still have lying around.

Since it's more a fluff/theme list anyway, I can't resist the chance to make a hideous unit of Chosen of Nurgle!


The Warriors don't need Aspiring Champions to be effective, they would do fine without any supportive heroes. Remove the Aspiring Champions in favour of normal Warriors.

Having a character to either challenge enemy characters or deal damage to the unit will make it a lot easier to survive a charge though.

Besides, I have two of those old metal Champion of Nurgle models ... can't let them go to waste! (yes, another fluff/theme reason :D )


Enlargen the two herds and add a Bray Shaman of Nurgle in each of them, this will make for very effective an nasty units (you could go for 1 Bray and 1 Wargor though).

First of all, a character with a Mark wouldn't be able to join the Mark-less herds, so that's out. The job of these units will be to screen and go after enemy support that tries to hinder my advance ... they don't need heavy hitters for that. They will flee from anything even remotely dabgerous anyway.


A unit of Knights or Minotaurs would help a lot in dealing with enemy armour and be used as a flanker, as would a unit of Marauder Horsemen. A third Nurgling Base would make that unit oh so much more viable.

It's supposed to be a mortal infantry horde (the herds will be converted as dead/rotting marauders), so that's a no-no on the Knights and Minotaurs (though these could make for a nice conversion opportunity).


To be fair, all of my reasons (or most of them anyway) are fluff-related and your suggestions would certainly make the list more effective. Would it make the list effective enough to compete against tournament-level experienced opponents?

Sorcerer of Nurgle

Large Marauder unit
2 Warrior units
2 Large Beastherds + Shaman/Wargor

Unit Knights or Minotaurs
x Beasts of Nurgle
x Nurglings

If I look at this list from an opponents point of view I see a horde of infantry with very limited and slow support. Most important though, the list is very vunerable to a concentrated attack and will most likely break when faced with hard combat-units.

On a side-note: If someone knows about a mortal Nurgle list that has been doing well on tournaments I would be very interested ... I would like to be proven wrong on this. :D


:cool:

Neknoh
26-05-2006, 17:53
Marked characters CAN go into unmarked units! Beastherds does NOT have a mark, just as with Marauders, hence, marked characters can join the Beastherds (although, only characters with the Raiders special abillity can do this), this is why Nurgle becommes extremely effective with the Beasts of Chaos, a single character in a herd forces the enemy to take a courage test to charge said herd since the character will automatically end up in the fightingrank due to the herd and him being Raiders. This can cause enemies to just stand there, wasting their Movement phase and being an open target for enemies (not to mention that Minotaurs gets very juicy with a 4+ Armoursave to boot).

What points level should the list be at? 1k or 2k? I suppose it is arround 2k.

The list would not only look intimidating, you are underestimating the effectiveness of Beastherds and Minotaurs in Nurgle armies, slow support they might be, true, however, they are still faster than your Warriors and Marauders, allowing for several moves that are otherwise hard to execute without loads of fast cavalry, such as a pincer attack, lock the centre down with the two blocks of Warriors and place a unit of Marauders to anchor one flank, put the Minotaurs on that flank as well. Nurglings could go behind the Minotaurs to give support to the Marauders when charged, Marauders becommes oh so dangerous when you need 5+ to hit them, and a Nurgling unit in the flank will keep a unit stuck for a while. Your Beasts of Nurgle could go mostly anywhere, just make sure they do not slow down your faster units such as Beastherds and Minotaurs.
Spread a Beastherd in front of the Warriors and keep the otherone to the unguarded flank, for round 1, everything moves forward supported by the four or six levels of Nurgle magic you have brought to bear. Round two, move the herd on the flank up even further and move the screening herd into their former place, Minotaurs should by now be a few inches in front of and slightly to the side of the Marauders whilst Nurglings have moved up to the side of the Marauders.
By now, your opponent will be charging a unit of heavy cavalry into your Warriors or your Beastherds, both of which he needs to take Fear tests to charge, which can buy you time and vital flank attacks (He will not try to charge your Marauders due to the support you have arround them, also, if you have played things right, you should by now have forced his cavalry to shift from the Marauder flank towards the herds or the Warriors thanks to your Minotaurs threatening them). Your Warriors should be able to stick arround after the charge, and, unless they suffer a massive 5 losses without doing any wounds in return, you will now autobreak the knights, hower, you must try to restrain pursuit, because pursuing would put you in a bad position and leave a hole in your battle-line. More important, those Knights will now have blocked at least one unit from charging your Warriors the next turn.

From there, you should basically try to close the pincer, Warriors and Marauders charge headlong into the enemy lines, supported by the Nurglings and Minotaurs going into the flank of the enemy fighting your Marauders (and the minotaurs might also go into the flank of an unengaged unit), your Beastherd that is in the same line as the Warriors and Marauders should also have charged in at the weakened enemy units (trust me, Nurgle Magic can hurt), your second herd should by now be in the rear fields of his units, prepared to either hunt down warmachines, charge fleeing troops or charge support units/rears.

By turn 4, you should be able to see the outcome of the battle, by turn 5, you should have won. This is of course a tactic that is hard to use agganist a refused flank, but, it works aggainst mostly any standard battle line and/or gunline (aggainst which you might want to use your Screening herd for almost nothing but screening).

kyussinchains
26-05-2006, 22:35
the only real point I'd make is that a nurgle exalted does make an excellent and powerful character, however his Ld of 8 is strictly middle of the road, if your tactic relies on big blocks of warriors (perfectly viable tactic btw) you're probably going to get charged, which even for warriors, unless they're led by a tough character, is a tough order to stick around (providing they're charged by elite cavalry/infantry) so that extra pip of Ld can make all the difference, after all, the difference between Ld6 and Ld7 is pretty enormous!

I'd also take a battle standard, I usually give him the mark of nurgle, gaze of the gods, and the sword of might, it makes him very durable, with 3 wounds and a 4+ ward, as well as tough enough to do some damage even to monsters.

I'd agree with neknoh more on the composition, avoid chosen warriors in general, any number of them is extremely expensive, and they're just not worth the points. Stick with a couple of large-ish blocks of nurgle warriors, marauder horsemen to knock the ranks off (while fast cavalry still do!) hounds to screen, and nurglings to bog stuff down (they also make excellent flanking units thanks to their cloud of flies) a couple of spawn and maybe some marauders to plug holes in the line. I like to use a lord of nurgle with the crown of everlasting conquest and either the armour of damnation or the chaos runeshield. He also works well with the blade of blood as he can become a virtually unkillable 8 wound monster. I use the aforementioned battle standard, as well as an exalted champion and a sorcerer, either with some scrolls, or the plague chalice.

I think nurgle armies are fairly weak, but it's fun when your opponent fails a few fear tests and loses the game before a combat is fought!

Inkosi
27-05-2006, 17:01
hi all,

i m a fairly new player of warhammer but ever since i joined i have been hooked to chaos and i m a thorough Khorne at heart.

But i find that the mark of khorne is quite easily diverted. I have since come up with a undivided list but deep down in my heast i still long for Khorne.

In the first 2 trial battles i fought with my khorne list, against wood elves and undead (vampire count), i was out deployed and my main forces were diverted and easily flanked and massacared :mad:

i understand the theory about screeners, but another problem props to mind.
deployment. It is almost inevitable we wld be outdeployed becos of pricey units thus lesser units. other players normally depoly to divert my main forces.

any advice on suggestions to use khorne properly would be appreciated.

thanx

Neknoh
27-05-2006, 17:06
Depends, what type of army do you prefer to play? Heavy on Warriors and/or Knights or do you prefer Marauders (and Beastherds) backed by Khornate characters?

Inkosi
27-05-2006, 17:10
*edited the old post

guessed i should be more detailed.

I m a calvary man but i would always include a infantry unit.

I like to have a chaos lord and 1or 2 exl. champ.

Chaos knights are a must for me, i used to like chaos warriors but they prove to be costly so i converted to marauders.

after a few trial battles i find out the hard way about not having fast cav n flyers so they are a must for me now also.

Have just add in 2 units of chaos warhounds in my new list as screeners so thats about all

Nils-Ake
27-05-2006, 17:12
I think thats the best way to play chaos 2-3 big units of maruders with a khorne exalted in each. with 3. units of horsmen 4+units of hounds and 2 herds furies and some chariots.

Neknoh
27-05-2006, 17:20
Inkosi, if that is your Khornate playingstyle, I don't really see how you possably can have been lured arround the table.

Latro
27-05-2006, 17:28
I have some experience with bringing a Khornate (cavalry) army to the battle-field ... and I've had some succes with it as well. The most important units in a Khornate army will be your (non-frenzied) support units. They are your tools to make sure your heavy-hitters end up where you want them to be.

For example, my 1000 pts army has only two heavy-hitter units (Knights of Khorne and Minotaurs of Khorne), but a total of six support units to control their movement ... Furies, 2x Marauder Horsemen, 3x Warhounds.

Having that much support makes it also a lot easier to out-deploy your opponent. Most of the time my opponents are done deploying before I have placed my heavy-hitters ... great way to make sure you can decide where the decisive battles are going to be.

An additional benefit of going all fast (besides being very fitting for Khorne) is that your opponent won't get the time to react effectively to your better deployment.


Blood for the Blood God!

:evilgrin:

Latro
27-05-2006, 17:35
I think thats the best way to play chaos 2-3 big units of maruders with a khorne exalted in each. with 3. units of horsmen 4+units of hounds and 2 herds furies and some chariots.

I don't think that a legal set-up you have there ...

Hordes of Chaos:

page 55: units without a Mark are considered to be Chaos Undivided
page 46: characters can only join units with the same Mark

Mind you, I would be happy to be proven wrong on this. Any errata or FAQ out there I'm not aware of?

:cool:

Inkosi
27-05-2006, 17:40
Inkosi, if that is your Khornate playingstyle, I don't really see how you possably can have been lured arround the table.

i learnt it the hard way.

My army used to be too elite n few supporting units.

Inquisitor Maul
27-05-2006, 17:40
Marauders dosn't have a mark at all.

Inkosi
27-05-2006, 17:42
I have some experience with bringing a Khornate (cavalry) army to the battle-field ... and I've had some succes with it as well. The most important units in a Khornate army will be your (non-frenzied) support units. They are your tools to make sure your heavy-hitters end up where you want them to be.

For example, my 1000 pts army has only two heavy-hitter units (Knights of Khorne and Minotaurs of Khorne), but a total of six support units to control their movement ... Furies, 2x Marauder Horsemen, 3x Warhounds.

Having that much support makes it also a lot easier to out-deploy your opponent. Most of the time my opponents are done deploying before I have placed my heavy-hitters ... great way to make sure you can decide where the decisive battles are going to be.

An additional benefit of going all fast (besides being very fitting for Khorne) is that your opponent won't get the time to react effectively to your better deployment.


Blood for the Blood God!

:evilgrin:

i know about the screeners and supporting units and i have included them in my new list.

Problem is i dont really know how to deploy them or rather how to use them properly in battle.

thanx for your help and suggestions though

Latro
27-05-2006, 17:46
Marauders dosn't have a mark at all.

Don't make me quote myself at you ... oh well, here it comes anyway:


Hordes of Chaos:

page 55: units without a Mark are considered to be Chaos Undivided
page 46: characters can only join units with the same Mark


:cool:

Inkosi
27-05-2006, 17:54
i think the deciding factor would be the rule saying

"characters can only join units with the same mark"

mark of undivided and khorne are different

Inkosi
27-05-2006, 18:06
my new khorne list:

2000 points exactly
8 dispel dice
73 models

Chaos lord of Khorne

- great weapon, shield,
- armour of damnation, gaze of the gods
- chaos chariot

2 x Exalted Chaos Champion of Khorne

- great weapon, shield, chaos stead

2 x Chaos Knights of Khorne (7 each)

- full command except champion (cos i m putting my exl. champs in them)

Marauders (24)

- great weapon, light armour, shield
- standard, musician

2 x Marauders horseman (5 each)

- flail, shield, musician

Chaos Furies (8)

2 x Chaos warhounds (6 each)

comments, suggestions, advice are most welcomed and appreciated :D

Latro
27-05-2006, 18:20
my new khorne list:

2000 points exactly
8 dispel dice
73 models

- a lot of frenzied goodness -

comments, suggestions, advice are most welcomed and appreciated :D

Well, what do you expect your army to do? What's the strategy behind it, what tactics are you thinking of, what role do the different units have ...

It's easier (and better) to create an army around idea than to throw a random selection of units together just because their stats look nice, so to speak.


:cool:

Inkosi
27-05-2006, 18:54
warhounds to act as screeners for my knights who are suppoesed to be the hammers.

the marauders horseman team up with the knights for flanking

chariot team up with the marauders

and the furies for cleaning up any pesky fast cavalry or war machines

not a very good tactic i would say but i cant really think of a better 1 with a heavily Khorne army

Neknoh
27-05-2006, 18:55
Latro, I cannot find anywhere on page 55 that units which have no mark are considered to have the Mark of Chaos Undivided, all I can find is where it says that:


or Tzeentch, then other characters and units in the army may only have the same Mark (or no Mark at all and be Chaos Undivided)
You are reading it as if they don't have a mark, then they are Chaos Undivided, but, it is reffering to using units without marks AND units with the Mark of Chaos Undivided.

And I just noticed another thing, page 24 and 25, listings of Mortals:

Below the profiles for Warriors etc., this can be found:


Special Rules
Marks of Chaos: Chaos characters and units of Chaos Warriors or Chaos Knights can be given the Marks of the Dark Gods as listed on page 46

Notice the lack of this special rule under the Marauder entries.

Also notice on page 60 and 61, Knights, Warriors and Chariots have the following paragraphs in their entries:

May swap the Mark of Chaos Undivided with the Mark of Tzeentch, Slaanesh, Khorne or Nurgle at the price indicated (see p. 47).

Notice the lack of this paragraph in the entries for Marauders and Marauder Horsemen, also notice the compete lack of mention of marks for Marauders of Chaos and Marauder Horsemen.

Page 111:
Warrior [...] Marks of Chaos
Knight [...] Marks of Chaos
Marauder [...] Marauder Horsemen are Fast Cavalry

Note the complete lack of mentioning of the Marks of Chaos rule for Marauders.


From the rules for Crom the Conqueror:


However, all Marauder and Marauder Horsemen units may have the Mark of Chaos Undivided for free. They may not be given any other Marks.

This wouldn't ever be in his rules unless Marauders did NOT have a Mark.


So, all in all, you have just misenterpreted a line, simple as that

Latro
27-05-2006, 19:47
Believe it or not, I had noticed that Marauder units don't have a Mark of Chaos ... :rolleyes:

We read the same rules, but see different things:

I read that characters can only join units with the same Mark, you read the same but add that this should also mean that they can join units without a Mark ...

I read the part about unmarked units and see "or have no Mark at all and be Chaos Undivided) ... meaning (to me) that unmarked units count as being of Chaos Undivided in that regard (army selection, not actual benefits). You see it as talking simply about unmarked and Choas Undivided units.

... from what I have seen so far I won't change my mind. Which also happens to be the way it's played around here. So instead of going into a Yes/No discussion I would be more interested in knowing if there's anything in errata or FAQ on this topic?

:cool:

Neknoh
27-05-2006, 19:59
There actually was a FAQ about this on he UK website, however, in revisioning their FAQ, a lot of stuff dissapeared that made rules unclear, this being one of them.

I'll have a readthrough of the Beasts of Chaos Book, because, you must remember, that if that really is the case, suddenly, no Wargors, Bray Shamans, Great Bray Shamans or Beastlords cannot join Beastherds as said Beasterds does not have a mark.

Or waiiit... I'll have a second look at the current FAQ


Q: If a character with the Mark of Chaos Undivided joins a unit of Marauders, can that unit then re-roll failed psychology tests?
A: No

Note that the answer is no to the reroll gained, HOWEVER, nowhere does it state that the character cannot join the Marauders, even though they do NOT have the Mark of Chaos Undivided.

Source (http://uk.games-workshop.com/apps/eshare.pl?do=ReadThread&BoardID=2&ID=3003347&template=uk)
The Hordes of Chaos FAQ

Latro
27-05-2006, 20:07
There actually was a FAQ about this on he UK website, however, in revisioning their FAQ, a lot of stuff dissapeared that made rules unclear, this being one of them.

I'll have a readthrough of the Beasts of Chaos Book, because, you must remember, that if that really is the case, suddenly, no Wargors, Bray Shamans, Great Bray Shamans or Beastlords cannot join Beastherds as said Beasterds does not have a mark.

Or waiiit... I'll have a second look at the current FAQ



Note that the answer is no to the reroll gained, HOWEVER, nowhere does it state that the character cannot join the Marauders, even though they do NOT have the Mark of Chaos Undivided.

Source (http://uk.games-workshop.com/apps/eshare.pl?do=ReadThread&BoardID=2&ID=3003347&template=uk)
The Hordes of Chaos FAQ

The interesting thing about that is that it confirms what I have been saying:

- Marauders, being very much unmarked, can only be joined by characters with the Mark of Chaos Undivided ... because units with no Mark at all are regarded as being from Chaos Undivided. (from that quote we disagree on)


... it would be nice if we could somehow get an answer from Gav on this, him being the one who thought it all up in the first place. If anyone knows how it's supposed to be, it's going to be him.


:cool:

Neknoh
27-05-2006, 20:13
Good point... however, to get an answer from Gav here on Portent is impossible (or at least next to)

So, for the moment, we'll agree to disagree and keep on with our lives and playing the game as we've played it this far (although, I'll do everything I can to find a proof that Marauders are indeed unmarked and can be joined by any character, just need to remember where I read it, if I can find it, you will suddenly have gained a tactical edge).

Latro
27-05-2006, 20:34
Good point... however, to get an answer from Gav here on Portent is impossible (or at least next to)

So, for the moment, we'll agree to disagree and keep on with our lives and playing the game as we've played it this far (although, I'll do everything I can to find a proof that Marauders are indeed unmarked and can be joined by any character, just need to remember where I read it, if I can find it, you will suddenly have gained a tactical edge).

... which puts me in a win-win situation :D

Either I'm right, which will make me look all wise and knowledgable, or I'm wrong and I gain a lot of tactical options!


:cool:

(Right, now I'll get started on some frenzy-control tactical tips for the other guy ... 's been nice disagreeing with you though.)

Hive Fleet Spectra
27-05-2006, 20:45
Hello everyone, I have been reading this thread with great interest as I wish to start a chaos army in the near future.
I purchased the Hordes of Chaos book a little while ago and have decided on a Tzeentch Mortal Army. My main reasons for this is that i love the magic heavy theme to the army and the looks of the Tzeentch Heroes, over all colour scheme and the chaos model line is fantastic.

I am mainly a 40k player (Necrons mostly) but i do have small amounts of fantasy (about 600pts of Lizardmen). However after playing a few games i didn't really fall in love with the lizzies so i've decided to go a different direction with chaos.

Now i don't have any chaos models as yet but i have however put together a small 1000pts list which i could build up too.
Below is a quick run down of the army.

Heroes
Exalted Champion With MOT
Sorcerer of Chaos
Core
12 Warriors With Full Command, Shields & MOT
16 Marauders With Full Command, Light Armour and Shields
Chariot of Chaos With MOT
Special
12 Horrors
4 Screamers

I put together this force based on which models i liked mostly, but also I want an effective army aswell. I attempted to put in as many elements as possible in order for flexibility though it does seem to be lacking in numbers, in theory the slow advance of the warriors + marauders can be backed up by magic, daemons and the chariot for extra hitting power.

Now as i'm a novice to chaos any help with how the Tzeentch army should be structured and/or other units which i should bare in mind would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you for reading.

Neknoh
27-05-2006, 20:53
It seems fairly nice, however, you must remember that Warriors of Tzeentch have very weak Psychology, which means that they're often better off in larger units if you want them to do something appart from generating Powerdice for your Sorcerors, I'd reckomend a size of 16 for them.

Also, Marauders are wonderful when usied in units of 20 or more (1 box +1 Sprew, use Bitz Order from your store if possible).

The idea to include a Sorceror is nice, what lore were you thinking of using for him? Personally, I'd prefer the Lore of Fire, seeing as it adds a bit more punch to your magic phase without having too many useless spells.

Horrors are a very good idea, keep them, I've started eying them mysel lately, thinking of starting smaller forces of Nurgle, Khorne and Tzeentch to later go into one massive Undivided army together with my Slaaneshian one. The Horror spellist simply hurts, nothing more needs to be said.

Although, one thing I would reckomend for you to take would be to pick up the Beasts of Chaos book as well as a Beastlord model (used as a Wargor) and a Beastherd box, a Wargor costs only arround 70 pts, is nasty on the offencive and, unlike other Tzeentchian characters, does NOT get overtly expensive.

He would then join the Beastherd and that way have a 360 degree LoS for casting Tzeentch magic. You would also get access to some nifty weapons along with a very fine group of evil monsters and ogre-sized units.

Latro
27-05-2006, 21:14
warhounds to act as screeners for my knights who are suppoesed to be the hammers.

the marauders horseman team up with the knights for flanking

chariot team up with the marauders

and the furies for cleaning up any pesky fast cavalry or war machines

not a very good tactic i would say but i cant really think of a better 1 with a heavily Khorne army

Right, first of all this ... it's impossible to give complete tactical advice which covers all possible situations. So use these tips (or not) for yourself and see how they work out for you, practice a bit more, maybe change a little, try it again ... you get the idea. Experience is gained by doing ...

How to handle your frenzied units? One way of dealing with frenzy is in the way you position your attacking units:

- One frenzied unit is a lot easier baited/diverted than several frenzied units all attacking at the same time. By coördinating your all-out attack carefully the enemy will be very limited in the tactics he can use to trap you. A simple flee-and-flank tactic won't work if both the fleeing unit and the flanker are charged at the same time.

- Try to position your attackers in such a way that they can chose between several targets. This way he has to cover them all with defensive tactics, which means he has to react with a larger portion of his army to just one unit of you ... especially effective if you combine this with the previous point. (this tactic obviously works better with fast units).

Of course there are also ways to keep your frenzied units from charging at all, at least untill you want them to:

1) Warhound screen

advantage: Can physically block a unit from having to charge. Shooting casualties can be taken in such a way that a frenzied character can charge from the unit while the unit itself stays behind the surviving Warhounds. By letting the frenzied unit have a bit of line-of-sight around the screen, they can still charge if the Warhounds charge off to another unit thereby clearing the way for the frenzied unit (who could declare the charge due to line of sight). Very cheap screens, very expendable.

disadvantage: not very durable, low leadership


2) Fury screen

advantage: Better at providing cover against shooting, great at killing some shooters as well. Very flexible and fast, can always get there when you need them.

disadvantage: Has other tasks as well and you can only have one unit. Costs more than Warhounds, still quite a bargain though.


3) Marauder Horsemen screen

advantage: Same as the Warhounds, they're just better at it.

disadvantage: A waste of very useful and flexible unit. They can do the job in case of need, but they really should be doing other things.


4) Moon them!

advantage: A unit of Knights of Khorne charged in the rear is just as deadly as one charged from the front.

disadvantage: Though good for a laugh once, it could make you unpopular.


5) Swarm them!

advantage: Sometimes you simply can't prevent a combat that will cause a bad overrun or something like that. In that case make sure that the enemy doesn't get the chance to deal with your unit at his leisure. Swarm the area with everything that looks even remotely agressive. It makes them nervous, it makes the situation more complex ... nervous people in complex situations make mistakes.

disadvantage: Be sure of what you're doing, if you are the nervous one creating a complex situation you might end up losing the entire battle instead of just one unit.


Right, and some comments on your list:

- The speed of your list is unbalanced. A large chunk of points and hitting power will arrive after the first (and often decisive) battles have been fought. Chariots and infantry (especially when march-blocked) are a lot slower than cavalry. It can work, but it gives your opponents an edge.

- The points spent on the cavalry units are not very effective. A unit of seven Knights with a Character will probably end up in a 2x4 formation. Changing them to unit of five with full command, both lead by Aspiring Champions of Khorne will actually give them more hitting power while costing 66 points less (that's about two more units of Warhounds, or almost a Spawn, or a unit of Marauder Horsemen, or a Beastherd).

That said, the list itself looks fine and my comments are more a sort of "fine-tuning" and personal preferance than actual faults in the list.


... now go forth and spill some blood!


:cool:

Hive Fleet Spectra
27-05-2006, 22:05
Thank you for your insight and advice Neknoh. I've seen a lot of chaos players on this thread recommend the Beasts Of Chaos book for the beast herds in particular so i will definitely look into this option.

As for my sorcerers spell lore I will agree with you that the Lore of fire would enable me to bolster the army's offensive ability, though i am looking towards the lore of shadow also as it has some other spells which could be quite useful.

For example the spell 'Shade Of Death' looks to be particulary useful. Seeing as Tzeentch is not as stable in terms of psychology as the other marks, in theory at least i could use this spell to counter fear causing targets just before they or I charge into combat. Whether this would work in practise i'm not sure, has anyone else thought of this idea and if so could it be a viable trick up ones sleeve?

Lastly I will mention Horrors quickly, What would be the optimum number to field them in? I suspect in my small 1000pts list I have in mind to start with 12is an acceptable number, however in a slightly larger game 1500-2000pts It would be cool to be able to field 21+ Horrors to gain the Strength 5 fire of Tzeentch.

Thanks for reading.

EDIT: wow it's my 13th post on the 13th page of this thread, I must be fated to this army as Tzeentch has no doubt forseen :D

Neknoh
27-05-2006, 22:15
Yes, 21 or more Horrors is very nice indeed, however, keep in mind that unless you can utilise them fully, you might have wasted those points. The idea of Horrors in Tzeentch is that they bolster your Magic Phase, sending out potentially lethal spells right before the Tzeentchian onslaught beginns in an attempt to draw Dispelldice from your opponent and to hopefully keep a flank locked down.

In a magic heavy Tzeentchian Army, things can get VERY nasty with 2 units of Horrors, 10 levels of magic (done by having a Beastlord and 2 Wargors of Tzeentch along with an Exalted of Tzeentch to lead the army) and a Hellcannon, your opponent is forced to come at you, meaning he have to get close to the larger blocks of Horrors, this is when you strike him down completely, Horrors are monsters at short range devastation, especially if joined by Flamers.

To add further salt to a very serius injury, Marauders are extremely underpriced for their stats and Beastherds are simply vicius at covering up any holes created in your battleline. Meaning that a Tzeentchian army that seem stationary suddenly can outmanouver the enemy once they get close. Also try out the Firewyrm of Tzeentch upgrade on Spawns of Chaos, 2 of them in 1k games gives you 2 strength 3 Teardrop Templates, which can hurt quite a lot on weaker troops such as Gobblins and Skaven.

So good luck with the armies of the changer.

Inkosi
28-05-2006, 04:53
4) Moon them!

Right, and some comments on your list:

- The speed of your list is unbalanced. A large chunk of points and hitting power will arrive after the first (and often decisive) battles have been fought. Chariots and infantry (especially when march-blocked) are a lot slower than cavalry. It can work, but it gives your opponents an edge.

- The points spent on the cavalry units are not very effective. A unit of seven Knights with a Character will probably end up in a 2x4 formation. Changing them to unit of five with full command, both lead by Aspiring Champions of Khorne will actually give them more hitting power while costing 66 points less (that's about two more units of Warhounds, or almost a Spawn, or a unit of Marauder Horsemen, or a Beastherd).




Thanx for all your advice and suggestions Latro. Its a big help :cool:

Just 1 question. Whats Moon them?? :D

And the reason i put 7 knights is becos in the few trial battles i fought, u wouldnt believe how easily they were shot down by stray arrows(yeah maybe they were really really good rolls against me, but still they wld always be the main target for shooting).I wanted them to be more durable and able to last until they could get into close combat

and btw i always liked to have my lord on a dragon. but with a mark of khorne, is the points really worth it or can i really use the lord n dragon effectively

Latro
28-05-2006, 07:20
Thanx for all your advice and suggestions Latro. Its a big help :cool:

Just 1 question. Whats Moon them?? :D

Show them your (non-frenzied) backside!


And the reason i put 7 knights is becos in the few trial battles i fought, u wouldnt believe how easily they were shot down by stray arrows(yeah maybe they were really really good rolls against me, but still they wld always be the main target for shooting).I wanted them to be more durable and able to last until they could get into close combat

Using screens correctly should really limit the amount of shooting aimed at your expensive knights.

Saving points on knights = more units
more units = more targets
more targets = less time to shoot
more targets + less time to shoot = frustrated enemy (= happy you) ;)


and btw i always liked to have my lord on a dragon. but with a mark of khorne, is the points really worth it or can i really use the lord n dragon effectively

Personally I don't like dragons because they change the focus from "fighting with your army" to "fighting with one model" too much. It can work however, even when frenzied. The advantage here is that being a large target, a well-placed dragon can pretty much see the entire army of the enemy ... even the units in the rear and flanks ... just take your pick.

Watch out for shooting though, no screening for this big guy.


:cool:

whiteshields1830
28-05-2006, 08:55
Im quite a new fantasy player (have a WE army), and thinking of stating a mortal/daemon AND daemonic legion for tzeentch.

First up, for the mortal army im thinking along the lines of:
12 chaos warriors
16 marauders
5-10 chaos knights
12 Horrors
6 screamers
8 flamers
3 characters/lords/heroes tooled to inflict magic death!!! (2 will fly on discs, the other will either be with the knights or warriors)

AND for daemonic legion:
24 horrors (2 units of 12 with champ in each)
8 flamers
1 chariot of tzeentch
3 changebringers
6 screamers
2 daemonic magic guys (sry, dont know what theyre called) - maybe even belakor into the list...


As you can see, my intended lists are very very noob, and wondering what to change to improve them :D .... note that theyre intended for 2000+pts

Neknoh
28-05-2006, 09:26
Unfortunately, you can't use more than 4 Flamers in a mortal army if you field only 1 unit of Horrors, and, as discussed previusly in this thread, the boxes of Warriors and Marauders are 4 models short of effective, so I strongly reckomend buying sprews as well.

Your Daemonic Legion of Tzeentch looks good, I'd reckomend a Herald and a Greater Daemon/Be'Lakor for your heroes.

For the mortal army's characters, two Exalted Champions on discs and one Aspiring Champion on foot should do well, however, I would be tempted to tell you to get the Beasts of Chaos Book and use a Beastlord for your foot-hero, this would give you 8 levels of magic with 3 Tzeentch marked units (if you go for 1 unit of 16 Warriors and 2 units of 5 Knights)

whiteshields1830
28-05-2006, 10:25
hmmm...4 flamers only huh? darn, might skip them then - not enough s3 shots to be useful.

another question is, are flamers really worth it? i mean, they have no magic and only spew out s3 shots from 8"!!!! - which for a tzeentch daemon is too close to comfort. By the time youre that close you might as well say bye bye to them wouldnt you in the next cc round?

Please enlighten me on them (as many people have said theyre good)....same applies to the changebringers (and slightly to the chariot) ie. some tactics for them would be nice :p

Latro
28-05-2006, 11:57
hmmm...4 flamers only huh? darn, might skip them then - not enough s3 shots to be useful.

another question is, are flamers really worth it? i mean, they have no magic and only spew out s3 shots from 8"!!!! - which for a tzeentch daemon is too close to comfort. By the time youre that close you might as well say bye bye to them wouldnt you in the next cc round?

Please enlighten me on them (as many people have said theyre good)....same applies to the changebringers (and slightly to the chariot) ie. some tactics for them would be nice :p

Picture this:

A unit of Horrors with four accompanying Flamers in front of it are being attacked by a nasty fully ranked infantry unit

- attacker moves into position: 4 Flamers fire (4d6 str 3 shots) and Horrors cast spell (all models receive str 3 hit)

- attackers charges front Flamer, pops it, overruns into next Flamer: Horrors cast spell (all models receive str 3 hit)

- attackers pop Flamer, overruns into next Flamer: Horrors cast spell (all models receive str 3 hit)

... see a pattern? A unit of 25 regular infantry would lose about half it's strength before reaching the Horrors (if you didn't evacuate them or send help).


Or what about this:

A unit of Horros moves happily forward on on of the flanks, looking harmlessly innocent and all. Suddenly all four of the Flamers pounce forward 12 inch and fire away at some poor surprised soft target with 4d6 str 3 shots (BS 4) ... at the end of the turn they have to test to see if they pop, but during the following turn they'll be save again and ld 8 isn't that bad to test on anyway.

... this surprise strafing run has a reach of 8 (first turn march with Horrors) + 5 (range they can stay away from Horrors) + 12 (pounce forward turn 2) + 8 (range of their attacks) = 33 inch!

Combine it with the magic missile from the Horrors and a strafing attack from Screamers and you can seriously hurt many support units and war machines.


Heck, I might even try it myself! ... after I finished my Khorne army and the Nurgle army I'm planning :rolleyes:


:cool:

Neknoh
28-05-2006, 12:03
Let's not forget that a single block of Horrors and Flamers will absolutely lock down a flank from supportive enemy units, noone wants to come within magic distance of the Horrors and the Flamers just add some more punch.

As for the Chariot and Changebringers, the idea is that thanks to their Flying rule, you simply dance arround the enemy units and avoid their charge arcs whilst peppering one unit with their missiles, then, once that unit is week, you pummel everything into it on all flanks and rears possible, annihalating that unit, you then move on to the next unit, all the time, your Horrors, Horror Champions, Daemnic Heralds and Greater Daemon blasts away magic. Also, Flamerunits are vicius in Daemonic Legions as well, Skirmishers that hose the enemy units in fire is evil.


BTW: Latro, did you get my PM?

Latro
28-05-2006, 12:33
BTW: Latro, did you get my PM?

Thanks for the warning, I always forget to check that!

(Must be Tzeench twisting fate again!)


:cool:

kyussinchains
28-05-2006, 16:29
to add to the debate on marks of chaos (and I dont have my HoC book handy, due to my stashing of it at a mate's house) I think the comment about units 'counting as having the mark of chaos undivided' is for army composition ONLY

for example, you can have a general with the mark of nurgle, therefore all your units must be either marked nurgle, or undivided. Marauders count as undivided for the purposes of choosing a list, so you could include them in an army led by a marked character. But in game terms they do NOT have a mark and so may be joined by that big juicy nurgle lord.

if they count as undivided, that seriously weakens the whole army!

der_lex
28-05-2006, 16:33
Marauders are unmarked, and you can park any character in them.

As far as the Horrors are concerend, they're a decent but very expensive support unit. In a mortal army, I wouldn't even consider taking any in battles of less than 3000 points.

kyussinchains
28-05-2006, 18:13
I'd agree about the horrors, I reckon they really need to be in units of 20+ to be really effective, what with spell level and the strength of their missile spell. Not to mention how weak they are in combat, they really need the ranks and outnumbering to stand much of a chance, unless of course you put the buffer zone of a bunch of flamers to thin the numbers out.

Inkosi
28-05-2006, 18:51
Personally I don't like dragons because they change the focus from "fighting with your army" to "fighting with one model" too much. It can work however, even when frenzied. The advantage here is that being a large target, a well-placed dragon can pretty much see the entire army of the enemy ... even the units in the rear and flanks ... just take your pick.

Watch out for shooting though, no screening for this big guy.


:cool:

eh i am confused here.. does it mean because it is a large target it has a large range of LOS, or it is able to see over units becos it is a large target?

And if i am not mistaken, even if it can charge units behind, there must be enough space for the dragon base to land to do so?

Neknoh
28-05-2006, 18:58
Yes, it is a Large Target and has the Flying special rul, thus, it can charge over intervenin units.

And you are correct on the base placement, in order to park your dragon, you need somewhere to put it down

Neknoh
29-05-2006, 18:19
from Direwolf's FAQ


Q. Can Chaos characters join unmarked units such as Marauders
and Chaos Hounds?

A. Yes.
S. Gav Thorpe - Warhammer Design Team / Hordes of Chaos Army
Book page 46

I think this pretty much concludes the earlier discussion we had about marked characters and units.

Latro
29-05-2006, 18:59
from Direwolf's FAQ


Q. Can Chaos characters join unmarked units such as Marauders
and Chaos Hounds?

A. Yes.
S. Gav Thorpe - Warhammer Design Team / Hordes of Chaos Army
Book page 46

I think this pretty much concludes the earlier discussion we had about marked characters and units.

You're gloating aren't you? ... stop that! You evil man! Besides, it wasn't as if I was wrong because I was merely pointing out some lack of clarity that could have been much clearer by adding a few select words here and there so actually I was doing them a favout by pointing this out so that they can make sure the next Chaos book will be even better than this one ... and all that thanks to me!

So actually I was very right in being wrong, not that I was wrong of course ... :angel:


:cool:

Neknoh
30-05-2006, 05:50
I sent you a PM with it, yes, however, I then realised that more persons who read said discussion would perhaps start doubting, so I posted it up here to avoid confusion in new players.

So now, feel free to join characters of any mark into Marauders, mind you, you cannot have two characters of different marks in the same unit

Punk_in_Drublic
01-06-2006, 19:06
Hello!

Having played Empire for a long time, as well as having had a rather log hiatus from all things GW related, I've started gathering an undivided chaos force with units of slaneesh and nurgle thrown into the mix. I want to have something from both beasts, mortal and daemons in it.

So far I've got models to cover about everything in the character department, both mortal champinons and sorcerers (on foot and mounted on horses, steed 'o slaneesh etc), daemon princes (two, which can double as greater daemons, though I suspect I won't use them as such for other than a laugh).
I've got 16 warriors with HW and shield to use as an anvil unit (Planned on giving them MOS).
5 Chaos knights
2 spawns
...er... 5 marauders (should be ending up at 20 or 25 of these)
12 daemonettes
6 daemonettes on steeds
6 furies (gonna bump them up to 8)
12 Plague bearers (gonna bump them up to 20)
3 nurgling bases

I'm setting my sights on a unit of at least 6 warhounds and 5 marauders (converted with flails) as my next purchases. And then probably another regiment of marauders or chaos warriors with halberds, unless the nurgle daemons shows their worth. (And down the road, a Hellcannon :) )

I could need some input on which direction I should take this as far as purchases goes (and army development).

And my main question: Chaos Giant - Yay or Nay? I haven't really read the beasts of chaos book throughoutly, but just found a metal giant model that screams "Green stuff me!". So can somebody give me the lowdown on the giant (what's the difference between the chaos one and the vanilla giant?)

Is it overkill to include both two spawns and a chaos giant in a 2000 pts force, as far as speed bumping goes? Is the chaos giant really worth it? I've played a couple of games with the vanilla giant as a sidekick in some Empire, and wasn't overly impressed. But then I didn't use him with a noticable amount of skill.... ;)

(It should be noted that I'm at first aiming at 2000 pts of playable chaos, but I want to end up at 4000 pts from wich I can pick different army set-ups)

Later,

-Punk

Jmznudd
01-06-2006, 20:07
Neknoh-

Something you said in the beginning that caught my eye was that units marked with Slaaneshi, do not auto-break. I thought that units still autobroke from fear/terror causing units, regardless. Isn't that in the BRB?

-Jmz

Neknoh
01-06-2006, 20:25
Units Immune to Psychology ignores ALL effects of Fear and Terror (including autobreaking) along with other psychology tests as well as not being able to flee from charges.

Fear causing troops (Minotaurs, Ogres, Trolls and Nurgle marked) ignores the enemy effects of Fear but can still be autobroken by Terror causing units and still have to take fear tests when charged by/charging Terror Causers

kyussinchains
01-06-2006, 20:39
looks like you've got the makings of a good army there!

I started playing chaos way back in 4th edition where the army list had mortals beasts and daemons all mixed in together, I built my army around all 3 elements which meant that when the new army lists came out, I was pretty shafted (thanks GW :mad: )

I had to build up my mortal and beast armies to be viable in their own right, and I eventually came to love the seperation, so much that I tend to keep the armies seperate!

I think that in smaller games, mixing the 3 armies can be tricky, so I tend to stick to either mortals/daemons or beasts/daemons. There are loads of people who play differently of course, these are just my opinions!

anyhoo, on to your stuff

I'd advise getting some more warriors, 16 is an uncomfortable number, too few to use as a real anvil unit, but too many to use as a flanking unit. I'd advise getting another 4-8 so you have a nice chunky unit which will almost always have the full +5 combat result!

I'd generally recommend keeping them non-chosen, and giving them shields, that way they have a nice 3+ armour save without being too costly, I think the mark of nurgle would be a better purchase, unless you want to give them the mark of slaanesh and the rapturous standard (a real tarpit!)

knights can be great, they're among the toughest elite cavalry, and unlike most other elite cavalry, you can have multiple units, 1 is good for now though, perhaps another couple of knights would be a good option, it would increase their staying power as well as making them tougher in combat. (one of my favourite units is a unit of chosen knights of slaanesh with the rapturous standard, they are the toughest unit in the game bar none)

Spawn are always good, they work well as tarpits and can sometimes do some serious damage, at a measly 60 points, you can always afford a couple, try giving them the mark of slaanesh and getting 2 stuck in at once!

a few more marauders will give you a nice cheap block unit, and with a tough character in the front rank they can take most stuff on, I'd give em hand weapons, light armour and shields.

Daemonettes arent that great, they're quite fragile and not exceptionally hard hitting, although they are effective against horde armies with lots of weaker troops, keep em on the sidelines until you play against undead, goblins or skaven. No real need to get any more.

Mounted daemonettes however are fantastic, they are faster than any other light cavalry, but they hit much harder, 6 of them will give you 18 attacks, 6 of which are poisoned. Their speed will allow you to get some powerful flank charges in, 6 is a good number although 8 is even better!

Furies are great for hunting, they are tough enough to take on most war machine crew, they can take down lone wizards and/or battle standards, and get stuck into chariots to stop them charging you, 8 is about the optimum number.

Plaguebearers are pretty tough, just be wary about using them against magic heavy armies. In combat they are pretty resilient, with their WS4 and cloud of flies meaning only elite elves and chaos stuff will be hitting them on better than 5's, they also have a good toughness and save. Their stream of corruption generally isnt as good as making your regular attacks, but against low toughness unarmoured stuff it can be quite effective, 20 is a good number, I run 24 and they've rarely let me down.

Nurglings are great, if you use them as flanking units, the enemy attacks back against your other units will be less effective thanks to the cloud of flies, they can also be a good tarpit which can hold up most units for a turn or two, a couple more bases would be a good investment.

I think next on the list should be some warhounds (find a cheap alternative to the expensive metal ones!) at least 2 units of 5-6 are great for screening and flanking against weak units. Mounted marauders are also good, with flails they are a nasty flanking unit, and they give you access to some missile weapons which you can use against goblin fanatics, sole characters and for general harassment.

The giant is a good idea, you dont get many stubborn Ld10 troops, and his yell and bawl can be a game winner, mutant monstrosity is good, falling over is one of the most powerful things a giant can do! other than that he will attract as many cannons as possible away from your valuable units.

Hope that gives you some ideas!

Punk_in_Drublic
01-06-2006, 21:33
Thanks a lot for a long and frinedly answer, 'chains. I find it's kinda hard to get into a new mindset, when it comes to playing style and a new army. But hell, it's fun.

I'll sit down and have fun with the army list, and post a trial 2000 list in the appropriate place later on. I see that mixing all the three lists is more than a handfull in the beginning, and will focus on mortal / daemons for now.

Later,

-Punk

Neknoh
02-06-2006, 06:34
16 Warriors of Slaanesh works excelent as an anvil unit, especially if you give them the Raptorous Standard, your opponent will simply not be able to bring down enough warriors to make it count whilst you can hurt almost any unit even with Handweapon and Shield armed warriors.

kyussinchains
02-06-2006, 08:21
16 Warriors of Slaanesh works excelent as an anvil unit, especially if you give them the Raptorous Standard, your opponent will simply not be able to bring down enough warriors to make it count whilst you can hurt almost any unit even with Handweapon and Shield armed warriors.

depends on how shooty your opponent is, a couple of turns of concentrated missile fire will knock a couple of ranks off that unit, even with a 3+ armour save. cannons, handguns, crossbows, even enough bowfire will do it, I'd say with 4-8 more warriors, you're more likely to make it into combat with the full rank bonus.

Kharnath
02-06-2006, 09:07
thats why you take the hounds, hounds provide you a decent screen
or if your feeling crazy a skirmishing beast herd, both of these can help grease your otherwise uncomfortable journey to the enemies centre

Neknoh
02-06-2006, 10:18
Exactly, the only way to keep the costs of Chaos Warrior units down is to avoid spending points on extra ranks to soak up shooting and instead spend some points on getting a Beastherd, which, not only will aid you in screening, but will make a pain for his support units once they get there if they aren¨t too badly hurt

kyussinchains
02-06-2006, 12:21
of course screening is always necessary in a chaos army, but unless you cluster around your general, shooting hounds leads to multiple panic tests, they have terrible Ld and will flee, even a beastherd isnt reliable, and is often big enough to panic the warriors behind (assuming they're non slaanesh)

just my experience

Punk_in_Drublic
02-06-2006, 12:33
But in this case the warriors are marked Slaneesh. ;) I remember reading in this thread that someone always took his trusty unit of 16 warriors of Slaneesh in a 4 by 4 formation, and it seemed to me as enough in a 2000 pts army. Especially if I also go for the 5 chosen knight unit. I just can't get the points to go around!

LAter,

-Punk

Kharnath
02-06-2006, 12:34
non slanesh or non khorne,

also shooting down a herd is not easy with the skirmishing rule also hounds may panic easy but the chances of your warriors panicing is often a worth while risk as their LD is quite decent. and its better than your warriors dying and having to take a break test any way

Your Mum Rang
02-06-2006, 13:04
If you're running an army with no foot troops what is the best thing to do with your Sorcerors?

Chariots, Daemonic Steeds, Steed of Slaanesh (I'm Slaanesh) or Warhorse?

I like chariots most.

Kharnath
02-06-2006, 13:07
id say chariots are a no go, they are already cannon fodder let alone with an extra 180 points or so in it.

a regular war horse sheilded by some marauder horsemen should do the trick,

demonic steeds dont give extra save and are expensive and i think they are alrge targets (could be wrong) none of which is good for the sorc.

Latro
02-06-2006, 13:20
If you're running an army with no foot troops what is the best thing to do with your Sorcerors?

Chariots, Daemonic Steeds, Steed of Slaanesh (I'm Slaanesh) or Warhorse?

I like chariots most.

The safest and most sensible choice would be the regular Chaos Steed. It gives your sorcerer a better armour save and lets him hide in cavalry units.

The next safest choice would be (IMHO) chariots. These also provide extra armour save and because they are slower than the rest of your army (as it seems), enemy shooting will have other priorities. The obvious drawback is of course that they're slower to reach the action.

A Steed of Slaanesh offers no extra protection, but will boost his speed and flexibility considerably. Be very careful where you move him though or your sorcerer might end up dead or on foot.


:cool:

Punk_in_Drublic
02-06-2006, 13:29
Being an Empire player as well, I can surely say that chariots are usually my main priority to nail with my great cannon(s) in the first turn of shooting. I cherish every time a character is mounted in one. As somebody already pointed out, you get to nail two things in one shot. I throw my lot in with the regular chaos steed.

LAter,

-Punk

kyussinchains
02-06-2006, 17:34
chariots can give much needed protection, however they are combat units, and as such should be used for that purpose, if you're not keen on getting your (relatively) weak sorcerer into combat, you'd end up wasting a chariot.

Stick him on a regular steed

oh and about the missile fire, I'm used to playing against tomb king and empire armies, so lots of template weapons which can drop right over my screen troops, plus they generally reduce or ignore armour.

I think the fear of screaming skulls and cannonballs ripping through my troops as they have done since time immemorial, means I tend towards bigger units, which is obviously going to affect the advice I give!

Neknoh
03-06-2006, 10:01
Most blessed of the ancient gods, most gifted of us all, creatures whose souls are no longer, beings whos bodies are no more, fiends of the true powers of Chaos, the truest of the dark children, the Spawns of Chaos slither and crawl from their caves and nests. Be they the roaring Bloodbeasts of Khorne, the hissing Fiends of Slaanesh, the putrid Beasts of Nurgle or the burning Firewyrms of Tzeentch, they all come to our armies, they all serve the Dark Four, and they all are destined to die. - Gulgh Rakhar, Beastlord of the Hoofrender Herd.

The Chaos Spawn is, as you know, a Rare choice, cheap and at a two for one slot price, they are one of the most used choices as well, offering a Tarpit unit, a butcherer, a Speedbump and a nice little blowtorch, all in one, just need to mark them correctly.

Chaos Spawns are used to tie up enemy units which you do not want to see reaching your lines untill at a later moment, or simply keeping the enemy in place untill you charge him with something of your own, be it Chaos Knights or Minotaurs of Blood, the abillity to act as a Tarpit is just wonderful.

Chaos Spawns are random, that is a given, this is also one of their largest weaknesses, not being able to certainly know wether or not you will be able to reach the opposing units before they strike home, also, not having a set number of attacks can be annoying… although, when you roll that 6 on your D6, you will feel rather evil, not to mention pleased.

The low Initiative and complete lack of armour for Chaos Spawns is something which must be considered before choosing the direction to run in, for Chaos Spawns die easely to shooting and even to measly strength 3 attacks in close combat if your enemy gets to strike enough blows at you. More times than not, Chaos Spawns act as pincushions due to getting a bad roll at the wrong time and ending up right in front of a shooty or a stabby unit. Skinks are the worst things to meet when using Spawns, lots of poisoned shots at a no-armour model HURTS.

However, that is not saying that Chaos Spawns themselves can hurt in close combat, a low weaponskill, that is a given, however, it is only aggainst Elves and Heroes that it will really affect you, you’ll still hit on a 4+ aggainst most enemy foot troops and knights. At strength 4, you will easely deal damage to the enemy unit and at least weaken it before said unit kills your spawn and moves on. Although, I have seen normal Chaos Spawns eat even Saurus units with a little bit of luck with the number of attacks you get.

Always remember that Chaos Spawns cause Fear, this might save them when they get charged and it might also force any enemy survivors to hit it on 6s when it charges in itself. It can even autobreak lone hero-level characters with only 2 wounds on their profile and will give those stubborn units a run for their money once they get munched down to only 2 models.

Now, let us move on to the Marks of the Spawns themselves, although, they may not count as marks in combat, they do count as marks for choosing your army, meaning you can’t have a Firewyrm of Tzeentch in your Khornate army for instance, however, this does mean that if you are playing Undivided, you only need a Chaos Spawn with the mark of your choosing to also field a character of that mark, a highly usable tactic in a Beasts of Chaos army, where marked units are often rare.

The Bloodbeast of Khorne.
You pay a small ammount of points for one more strength, at a first glance, it might not seem much, but, considering you’ll now be wounding any enemy troops (barring some exceptions) on a 2+ helps a lot in killing off enemy units with your spawn. The extra strength also turns Armoursaves into papersaves, a healthy 4+ becommes a 6+, which more times than not will fail your opponent and result in even more dead bodies in the enemy unit. Spawns with this mark is easely the deadliest ones in close combat, able to take units down on its own if it gets to live long enough or if you don’t roll miserably for your number of attacks. However, this Spawn still suffers from the Slow Move (SM) Syndrome, with only 2D6 move, it is likely to move only 7 inches a turn (most likely) which may well result in getting to the action too late or not being useful. Still, it’s a good tradeoff if you can spare the points (one Furie less for instance). These Spawns makes for very nice additions if you are going to be fighting either high ammounts of Armour or high ammounts of Bodies, which often makes them the ultimate spawns to field aggainst Dwarfs in perticular and they are not all too shabby to field aggainst Undead where they can put big and nice dents in any units he might feel the need to bring.

The Beast of Nurgle
For 15 pts, you get Poison, not all too great seeing as you more times than not could use these 15 pts better, still, if you think you’ll get a lot of attacks in each battle, poison isn’t too bad when facing large enemy units. This spawn also suffers from the SM Syndrome, which can be a pain, however, due to it most likely being in a Nurgle army, it is actually a good thing that it doesn’t get into combat all too soon, since Spawns DOES have a tendency to draw firepower, meaning that less will be directed at your Bestigors and your Chaos Warriors, keeping their Unit Strenght high. You will also be able to field Nurgle marked Wargors, Bray Shamans, Exalted Champions, Aspiring Championsand Sorcerors in a 2k list thanks to this, which isn’t all too shabby, the Nurgle Lore is just lovable once you’ve found the applications for the spells. Often best used aggainst armies with medium ammounts of Shooting and lots of small units so that you can use them in battle as much as possible, thus increasing your chances of scoring Poisoned hits. The medium shooty armies will have to prioritse between the Spawn and the rest of the army.

The Firewyrm of Tzeentch
A strength 3 breath weapon coupled with a Spawn for only a total of 75 pts? Yes please, these Wyrms can hurt units with bad Armoursave vs shooting and low Toughness quite a lot, especially if said units are large, therefore, these Spawns often makes for very good buys when facing off aggainst Gobblins and Undead. However, due to the SM Syndrome, these Spawns can easley find themselves in bad positions for their breath weapons where they will only cover small parts of the enemy unit, or they will get too close and charge in, however, if you pick your Direct carefully, you can end up on a flank and thus pummel the enemy with them. Also, the abillity for you to field these in an Undivided army together with Tzeentch Wargors is just lovely.

The Fiends of Slaanesh
Undeniably one of the most popular options, the 3D6 move makes this spawn an excelent speedbump and tarpit, due to being able to reach the opposing lines about the same time as your cavalry, however, it might still be a risk, you can well race off and suddenly end up parked in front of your own units, blocking charges etc. The abillity to field Slaaneshian Bray Shamans in Undivided armies by taking these is also a big reason to take one.

Now young one, go out there and bring the Spawns to the field of battle, where they are destined to die one way or the other.

Inquisitor lorr
03-06-2006, 12:07
I don't actually play chaos and i am by no means a veteran.I play night goblins and fanatics can often really mess up expensive chaos troops,the best way to get rid of them is to use the tzeentch spell which makes horrors from the casualties.This means that horrors automatically appear and this means the fanatics go crazy and pop out in a random direction(in amongst their own lines).You could probably try this on the very first turn.

MarcoPollo
07-06-2006, 01:07
I think the safest place for a sorceror in an all cavalry army is on the warhorse. Chaos armor and a barded steed give you a good 2+ save. You can keep them in units (meh giving up killing power) or you can keep them besides/in warhound units.

But the demonsword on a slanesh sorceror lord seems like a pretty deadly combo.

Chris_Tzeentch
09-06-2006, 15:46
I have been thinking about fast units in a Chaos army once again, as I am resurrecting my Tzeentch Cavalry army. With the new edition fast approaching, one of the key differences is that we only get rank bonuses if the ranks are five wide. This lead me to consider that we are less likely to see units with full ranks outside of horde armies.

However, what if we took units of of cavalry and put them in ranks? Does that sound insane? For example, 20 chaos hounds (5x4) is relatively cheap, very fast, with a good static score plus any attacks that wound. Just imagine that unit in an enemy flank? Combine these units with screamers and furies for the new 'crossfire' auto destroy, and its a pretty nasty unit. What about 20 Centigor? Nasty!! Combine these units with the usual nasty Tzeentch stuff, and its a pretty sick army indeed.

Have I been out in the sun too long?

Neknoh
09-06-2006, 15:51
Warhounds in big blocks are tried and aproved of, or even better, if you want that true über unit, take a unit of 16 Chaos Warhounds and take 4 Exalted Champions of Chaos on Chaos Steeds with nifty doodahs, they will slap any unit they charge back to stoneage.

20 Centigors are, however, very expensive and highly risky as well.

What I see getting better with this new edition is that units of 7 knights will be viable, meaning 2 to 4 more attacks in close combat (counting steeds)

Chris_Tzeentch
17-10-2006, 13:30
Since my last post I have been using a Khorne Cavalry army. I think a 7 strong unit of knights is the optimum size. It allows maximum number of attacks (24 or 25 depending on Champion being present), it allows the unit to take casualties and still be combat effective, and it doesn't affect manouverability too much.

ranger1000
17-10-2006, 17:46
Ok so i need help with my Hordes of chaos army (Nurgle) I am in a campign where rules can be broken like have more than one hell cannon in an army, so anyways me and my allie were laying seige to a skaven Skrye capital but me and skaven player talked and he knew i was backstabbing my allie which i did. Then when he was gone the skaven player turned on me and started shooting me to peices with some 40 jezzails and 2 warplighting cannons what can i do against an all shooting army like this because i will need to seige him to take him off the campign sometime

Neknoh
17-10-2006, 21:22
Drop a hellcannon shot or two on the spot where his Jezzials and WLC's are standing, the Panick from the Large Template will rid the world of those kinds of skaven units.

Use Beastherds to quickly close on the walls, model them to look extra nasty and your opponent will go after them rather than your hellcannnons.

Also, take loads of bodies, remember the quote of Arbaal the Undefeated!

ranger1000
18-10-2006, 01:40
but don't forget in a seige the deffenders units are unaffected by psyology

Einholt
18-10-2006, 04:22
Ok, new here very new =). New to the game too but Ill try not to horrify You with sum questions.

Firstly when the Mark of Khorne says adds 1 dispell dice to that players dice pile, is it referring to me having the khorne unit or my opponent.

Second Do demonettes have rank bonuses, im confused since they lack command group upgrades NOT that i think the 2 are connected but U know lol combat resolution banners etc etc.

Then Id like to use marauder horsemen but since they dont benefit from ranks Is there any point in going with a unit of 10 or should I do sumthing like 8 and upgrade em with more items or maybe 2 units of 6? To do what I hear they do with the baiting screening axe throwing etc. Also Should I even bother buying the Standard Bearer for them? Id like to know the benefit of a musician ( by rules I think its for a better rally) but im not sure and Chieftain I assume is just worht it for his attack. Id also like to know if the chieftain does indeed throw 2 axes (provided ive equipped the horsemen with throwing axes)

Now Onto my list and future list.
Currently I have the following configuration for 1055 pts total.
Exlated Champion Maxed out on points leading
19 Chaos warrios with shields and Full Cmd
Two Units of 10 Warhounds (Maybe deploy em differently in 3 units not sure)
5 Chosen Khorne Knights
10 Chaos Furies

I want to add marauders on horseback and If you guys can clerify why normal ones would be good Im fine for that but I just dint buy any cuz I was not sure that I would use marauders at higher point values in my army and dint wunna buy sumthing that would be shelved once I could simply afford to make it all wars (if Im thinking illogically leme know)

Not sure about my furies either but I play vs 2 Artillery happy dwarf armies. (so i had to get em)

Knights I like and no disrepsect but if you told me to drop em I prly wouldnt listen.

Warriors I like and i have to have at least 1 one unit in my army.

Any additions and revisions are welcome though and I will think about (cept removing the knights) Got a lot of points to build on so yea tis open ended but I do like the Mortal theme. Marauders more knights more wars is preferred for this list. Also need to know how to bolster my magic Defense (dispell dice wise)

My second list is non existent but I want a Slaanesh army. Id like MAGIC SPeeD and being totally honest boobies. Reading this thread I noticed ppl stayed away from plain demonettes wunna know why Cuz Id like at least 1 unit of em. I have no problem including alot of mortals in this list either, just for making it playable though the theme is Slaanesh. Marauders would seem to do a better job in this from ur posts then warriors. And Id have that Hard Hitting unit of knights with the special Banner.

Thank you in advance for any lil advice or answer to any of my questions. I look forward to learning the game and chaos. So that I can help contribute to the board as well in time.

Neknoh
18-10-2006, 09:06
Ok, new here very new =). New to the game too but Ill try not to horrify You with sum questions.

Welcome, always fun to see new players, however, it would be easier for us to take you seriously were you to write in proper english, the only players on these forums that are allowed to use words such as "sum" and similar are the Orcs and Gubbinz players.


Firstly when the Mark of Khorne says adds 1 dispell dice to that players dice pile, is it referring to me having the khorne unit or my opponent.

If you have a unit or character with the mark of khorne, said unit/character adds one dice to your Dispell Dice pool


Second Do demonettes have rank bonuses, im confused since they lack command group upgrades NOT that i think the 2 are connected but U know lol combat resolution banners etc etc.

They do get rank bonuses, however, Daemonettes are best fielded in blocks of 14 or 12, 7 or 6 wide depending on the size of the opponents bases.


Then Id like to use marauder horsemen but since they dont benefit from ranks Is there any point in going with a unit of 10 or should I do sumthing like 8 and upgrade em with more items or maybe 2 units of 6?

They do not get rank bonus, and I prefer to use mine in units of 5 or 6 for best and cheapest usage. And don't max out on items.


To do what I hear they do with the baiting screening axe throwing etc.

Don't bother with Throwing Axes, shields or spears, give them Flails and a Musician and you will be set, a unit of 5 with those upgrades are worth 81 points, something you either can happilly throw away to make the opposition overrun into a different direction, or you can use them in order to flank charge enemy units, with 5 strength 5 and 4 strength 4 attacks, they will certainly do some damage.


Also Should I even bother buying the Standard Bearer for them? Id like to know the benefit of a musician ( by rules I think its for a better rally) but im not sure and Chieftain I assume is just worht it for his attack. Id also like to know if the chieftain does indeed throw 2 axes (provided ive equipped the horsemen with throwing axes)

I say don't bother with the standard, however, there are people who takes the standard bearer and have had mostly good stories to tell, however, that the unit gives away a total of nearly 200 pts when destroyed isn't something I like. Musician gives you +1 to rally, if the combat has a tie and only one side has a musician, that side wins the combat by 1. The Chieftan can also challenge enemy unit champions and characters, but, they can also challenge him, which is why I don't take one, he simply gets challenged and then, he reduces the incomming attacks from 3 strength 5 and 3 strength 4 to 2 strength 5 and 1 strength 4.


Now Onto my list and future list.
Currently I have the following configuration for 1055 pts total.
Exlated Champion Maxed out on points leading
19 Chaos warrios with shields and Full Cmd
Two Units of 10 Warhounds (Maybe deploy em differently in 3 units not sure)
5 Chosen Khorne Knights
10 Chaos Furies¨

Looking good, however, I would drop some items off of your Exalted Champion (perhaps simply go for a Greatweapon and the Helmet of Many Eyes, works a treat) and then drop 2 Furies, this would put you at 1002 pts, something a lot more standard for games.

I would split the warhounds into four units of 5, the army would then have plenty of redirection and would easely screen their more important units.


I want to add marauders on horseback and If you guys can clerify why normal ones would be good Im fine for that but I just dint buy any cuz I was not sure that I would use marauders at higher point values in my army and dint wunna buy sumthing that would be shelved once I could simply afford to make it all wars (if Im thinking illogically leme know)

Normal Marauders are great simply because they add Static Combat Resolution to the army for less than 200 pts even for blocks of 25, a block of 25 Warriors will cost you an arm and a leg, whilst a block of 25 marauders will hardly take up any points at all.

Think of it, you can get 1 unit of Warriors, 1 unit of Chosen Warriors and one unit of Chosen knights as well as some characters in 2k pts, however, what you have there is a grand total of 3 units, your opponent will easely outmanouver you and make sure to pummel you into the ground fairly sollid, this is where Marauders come in, they are dangerous to the opposition, they are extremely cheap for their stats and thanks to this, they can come in large numbers of evil blocks. Your opponent wont be able to outmanouver you if you have parked a block of Marauders or two in his way. Also, Static CR means a LOT in warhammer, you don't want to loose by 1 to Zombies just because they flanked you, for if you do, you better roll that double 1 or you will run and they will catch your 400 pt unit of Chosen Warriors.

You will often need bodies in your army, and this is what marauders offer, of course, people are doing very well with armies based solely on Warriors and Knights, however, they know to keep their heroes cheap and low in number as well as having supportive elements in the forms of Daemons and Beasts.


Not sure about my furies either but I play vs 2 Artillery happy dwarf armies. (so i had to get em)

Eight should be enough.


Knights I like and no disrepsect but if you told me to drop em I prly wouldnt listen.

Keep them, keep them says I, but you might want to save points by dropping them down to 4 Chosen knights of Khorne with only a Musician and a Standard Bearer, that unit will cost less than 250 pts and kill LOADS IIRC, the horses have Frenzy to, remember?


Warriors I like and i have to have at least 1 one unit in my army.

Warriors are fine, but, I preffer them armed with either Hallberds or Additional Handweapons and fielded with a wide frontage in order to massacre as many R&F troops as possible rather than running arround in the back ranks doing nothing. I preffer my warriors in 2 ranks of 7.


Any additions and revisions are welcome though and I will think about (cept removing the knights) Got a lot of points to build on so yea tis open ended but I do like the Mortal theme. Marauders more knights more wars is preferred for this list. Also need to know how to bolster my magic Defense (dispell dice wise)

Mark the warriors and the Exalted Champion Khorne, simple as that, you will get 2 more Dispell Dice for a total of 5, which is enough at 1000 pts. battles.


My second list is non existent but I want a Slaanesh army. Id like MAGIC SPeeD and being totally honest boobies. Reading this thread I noticed ppl stayed away from plain demonettes wunna know why Cuz Id like at least 1 unit of em. I have no problem including alot of mortals in this list either, just for making it playable though the theme is Slaanesh. Marauders would seem to do a better job in this from ur posts then warriors. And Id have that Hard Hitting unit of knights with the special Banner.

I have no problem with normal Daemonettes, I had a lengthy fight against Daemonette naysayers on this very forum in a thread called "Why daemonettes are heinous" some months ago, they have high speed, loads of strength 4 attacks and are daemonic, all of which I only see benefits in.

If you want magic and Daemonettes, and, seeing as you allready have Furies, I'd suggest building a list consisting of (at 1k):

Sorceror of Slaanesh with a Spell Familliar and a Powerstone (think they changed it to allow it to be used together with other Arcane Items now).

Exalted Champion of Slaanesh on a boobyworm with a Hallberd and a Shield.

A small unit of Warriors with additional handweapons (12 will suffice) a block or two of Marauders and some Mounted Daemonettes.

Then, for 2k, add a Greater Daemon of slaanesh, some Daemonettes, some Furies and you would be set, the Exalted can be swapped for a unit of Chosen Knights with the Raptorous Standard.

This would give you 6 levels of Slaanesh magic (7 spells), boobies en-masse, warriors, knights and marauders. And it would be fairly effective.


Thank you in advance for any lil advice or answer to any of my questions. I look forward to learning the game and chaos. So that I can help contribute to the board as well in time.

You are very welcome

Einholt
19-10-2006, 00:41
Hmm proper english eh? Alright lol. I like the suggestions actually, I will work with alot of that. But I have a few further inquiries.

The suggestion of simply putting a great weapon on Champion. Can his weapon set differ from my warriors because he is supposed to be in that regiment.

Marauder horsemen with flails, Im working with this idea and Ill justify why I had axes for you. I play against 2 dwarven armies and an O&G primarily now. The Axes provide me a means to kill fanatics and also it was suggested that they are quite good at softening up the enemy. My question about flails is, do I get that bonus only once in the entier game when the marauders engage in combat or everytime they begin a combat with a unit they were not in base contact with the previous turn. Regardless of the answer I am thinking of having 2 deployment sets for them, two 6 Man units with throwing axes and a musician (for their more mobile and cowardly role of baiting and running around picking off their fast units) and a unit of 8 in 4x2 formation with Full command and flails (used to smash into a flank as quickly as possible) Perhaps drop that banner but Ill decide after testing.

Also I played my warriors in the big Clump of 20 for full ranks and with shields because of the dwarves, They are bound to soften it up so Id like to have at least 2 full ranks if shot down. I understand your deployment suggestion to get most of my attacks but currently I dont have to worry about it, infact if I did deploy them 7 or even 6 wide theyd be hitting no more dwarves then they would in a rank of 5 . I like this idea for a later incarnation of this army with some khornate extra wep warriors or perhaps halbreds. If I am seeing it wrong let me know. Halbreds might be a problem on the count they wont sell me bits for em, but perhaps I can just pretend. Id like to have shields on the wars all the time anyway. Giving them mark of khorne is definetly something to condsider as well I like that very much.

Knights will try your config even without the full rank they should hold their own.

Furies and Warhounds, done and done the 30 pts and hound dispersion makes much more sense since Im limited in number of models.

I like the slaanesh idea too, gonna work on it soon as these guys are all sorted out before I even continue to expand.

My only real problem now is the optimal warrior build. I like the 20 full unit but it kills in points, so perhaps 16? or maybe 15 plus the champ giving me, Khornate and Extra weps with shield? I am really torn on how to equip them and how many to field. I was even considering somehow doing a unit of 14 and of 16. This is the biggest problem for me now. Anyone else or Neknoh more advice for warriors would again be appreciated and thank you for the lengthy and extremely helpful review once agian. =)

Neknoh
19-10-2006, 11:15
Flails get the bonus each time a new enemy unit is engaged after a round of non-fighting (i.e. they can't get the bonus if allready engaged in combat and then flanked).

Marauders are more commonly used for the big rank bonuses, but warriors CAN work as well.

I preffer units of 12 or 14 warriors and fielding them in two ranks, this grants you as many attacks as possible, and, if Khornate with Additional Handweapons, that's 3 attacks a piece, meaning a massive 21 strength 4 ws 5 attacks from a unit 7 wide

Chris_Tzeentch
02-11-2006, 13:07
I have been using the Hellcannon a lot, and think its great, but I came unstuck against a Dwarf player in a siege last night. He dropped a stone thrower and a cannonball on my Hellcannon, and because they both had runes, counted as magical attacks so I had no save whatsoever. Both hits combined managed to destroy it. In future, I am going to take Diabolic Splendour, which for a few measly points, will give it a permanent ward save.

malketh the witch king
03-11-2006, 01:24
you had a very intresting tactics i learned a lot thank you for great information


Now i am never going to leave my house without a printed copy of your post on thees chaos tactics

Neknoh
03-11-2006, 08:58
Haha, I am flattered, but remember, this isn't the End All Be All tactica, I would highly reckomend you to read through the discussions in this thread as well as have a look at what people say on the Armylist Forum

Panzer MkIV
03-11-2006, 17:09
Is it viable to make a Chaos army that just loads up on troops and skimps on characters? One of the reasons that Chaos armies are small is because players spent a lot of points on them leaving very little for troops.

Polaris
03-11-2006, 17:43
Hello, I have started building a chaos army and im new to the hobby, game and boards :D

Heres my first stupid question:

Can my warriors take both shields and additional weapons? I think I read somewhere that they can carry shields to help against shooters then sling them on their backs to use the second hand weapon

Panzer MkIV
03-11-2006, 17:55
They can. It's also usefull to have them when your unit get charged by something harder like heavy cavalry and orges so you can absorb the charge.

Welcome to Warseer:)

Neknoh
03-11-2006, 17:55
Indeed they can, and it is what I and a lot of other players often reckomend in armylists, it is the best thing to do really, you spent maybe 235 pts to get a unit of 14 Undivided warriors with additional handweapons, then another 14 pts to give them a 4+ save against shooting is deffinately worth it.

And yes, Marauder Hordes have been done and are often very successfull, the key is to use one or two Exalteds and maybe a Bray Shaman Scroll Caddy, then fill the rest with Marauders, marauder Horsemen, Beastherds and Tuskgor Chariots

Dr.Diemer
16-11-2006, 06:56
Very cool thread - thank you for sharing the secrets to succes with the lost and damned :)

How can a mortal tzeentch army deal with orc boar chariots and giants most effectively?

aeon flux
17-11-2006, 14:10
go macic heavy: it's tzeentch. your regiments are not going to win any battle by attrition, because they're the least dependable (the mark of tzeentch doesn't grant immunity to psychology like others do).
if you can afford, lord of change and exalted hero/lord on disc to harass those units with heavy magic assault.
always take at least 5/6 screamers.
make your spawn firewirms. they're awsome, though unpredictable.
go really heavy on horrors and flamers. they kick serious ass. chariots and giants don't usually get magic attacks, so your wards are assured.

aeon flux
17-11-2006, 14:16
of course screening is always necessary in a chaos army, but unless you cluster around your general, shooting hounds leads to multiple panic tests, they have terrible Ld and will flee, even a beastherd isnt reliable, and is often big enough to panic the warriors behind (assuming they're non slaanesh)

just my experience

doesn't panic results from units with unit strength bigger than 5 breaking from shooting within 6"?
if so, then your hounds will never get you this: if taken in small units, when they lose to shooting they'll be depleted (so down with the unit strength).

if you screen with daemons, do they cause break tests for taking instability casualties?

Chris_Tzeentch
23-11-2006, 13:00
Very cool thread - thank you for sharing the secrets to succes with the lost and damned :)

How can a mortal tzeentch army deal with orc boar chariots and giants most effectively?

The Hellcannon is good at blowing these things to pieces, or at least using psychology to cause them to flee to the back of the table, thus taking them out of the game for long periods.

Magic is also excellent for blasting them into next week.

der_lex
23-11-2006, 13:27
Knights are good as always as well, albeit a bit more risky against the Giant.

Screamers should be able to tackle a chariot as well.

Magic-wise, Blue Fire would be your best bet.

Voltaire
23-11-2006, 15:27
Just out of interest, is a Hellcannon better than a Giant?

der_lex
23-11-2006, 15:56
From my experience, yes, by far. The only thing that keeps the hellcannon from being blatantly broken are the frenzy rules, and even those can be turned into a boon instead of a bane with some clever postioning of both the hellcannon and a marauder horsemen unit. If it behaves, you basically have a STR10 stone thrower that is easily capable of beating all the standard war machine hunters in close combat. The Giant on the other hand is pretty cool, but is nothing but a very expensive missel attractor against shooting-heavy armies. Even with the mutant monstrosity upgrade he's bound not to make it into CC.

kyussinchains
23-11-2006, 16:03
Just out of interest, is a Hellcannon better than a Giant?

that's a very subjective question!

a bit like asking if a spoon is better than a dolphin

I personally find that the hellcannon sucks, the only times I used it, the crew got shot and the thing rampaged around my army, bogging me down and causing lots of hassle.

although I find giants get shot a lot too, so they both attract a fair amount of missile fire....

giants make great tarpits, they have several very powerful attacks, but a few duff ones too, they also die fairly easily.

the hellcannon gives you a chance to shoot back, however it costs a lot of points, can misfire wildly and rampage around, killing your units.

I'd stick with a giant as it's cheaper

der_lex
23-11-2006, 16:10
I personally find that the hellcannon sucks, the only times I used it, the crew got shot and the thing rampaged around my army, bogging me down and causing lots of hassle.



the hellcannon gives you a chance to shoot back, however it costs a lot of points, can misfire wildly and rampage around, killing your units.


Sounds like you simply didn't deploy it properly. Neknoh and I wrote a tactica on how to use Hellcannons effectively a while back. You can find it at http://www.freewebs.com/neknoh/tacticachaoticaunits.htm

Both units are very useful, it just depends on what you want them to do. If you want to hold a flank / table quarter while putting a big hurt on the enemy, go for the Hellcannon. If you want a solid tar pit and flanker, go for the Giant.

kyussinchains
23-11-2006, 16:17
Sounds like you simply didn't deploy it properly. Neknoh and I wrote a tactica on how to use Hellcannons effectively a while back. You can find it at http://www.freewebs.com/neknoh/tacticachaoticaunits.htm

Both units are very useful, it just depends on what you want them to do. If you want to hold a flank / table quarter while putting a big hurt on the enemy, go for the Hellcannon. If you want a solid tar pit and flanker, go for the Giant.

I'm all for variety in an army, I just find that you end up basing a lot of your strategy around a hellcannon, taking units of warhounds and such to act as bait in case it rampages, I'd rather spend the points on other things for my army, such as a unit of screamers, or a tooled up hero/sorcerer

I know how to use one, I just dont like to, I've had bad experiences, and I think that shooting is for boring dwarf players who dont know any better, I've always managed perfectly fine without the hellcannon!

Chris_Tzeentch
23-11-2006, 19:16
I would go for a Hellcannon over a giant anyday. Giants are just taken out with ballistics so easily these days - you might as well give your opponent the points before starting the game. They are very random also. I think the Hellcannon gives more options to chaos armies and makes the overall chaos gaming experience more fulfilling!

der_lex
24-11-2006, 00:44
I'm all for variety in an army, I just find that you end up basing a lot of your strategy around a hellcannon, taking units of warhounds and such to act as bait in case it rampages, I'd rather spend the points on other things for my army, such as a unit of screamers, or a tooled up hero/sorcerer

I know how to use one, I just dont like to, I've had bad experiences, and I think that shooting is for boring dwarf players who dont know any better, I've always managed perfectly fine without the hellcannon!

That's fine, different strokes for different folks. But 'I don't like it' is hardly a valid reason for calling something a bad unit, though.

kyussinchains
24-11-2006, 08:05
That's fine, different strokes for different folks. But 'I don't like it' is hardly a valid reason for calling something a bad unit, though.

I wasnt just saying it sucks because 'I dont like it' I was saying it sucks because it costs a lot of points, I've had bad experiences with it, and it requires you to have contingency plans when it goes bananas (and it does go bananas!)

I prefer to let my opponent be the one who I make all my tactical descisions about, worrying about my own stuff attacking me is something I can do without

Chris_Tzeentch
24-11-2006, 11:44
Why is the giant important for your army/style of play, Kyussinchains? Could you tell me what your "usual" list looks like, and how you use it?

BTW you have damn good taste in music (Kyuss fan myself)

kyussinchains
24-11-2006, 12:51
Why is the giant important for your army/style of play, Kyussinchains? Could you tell me what your "usual" list looks like, and how you use it?

BTW you have damn good taste in music (Kyuss fan myself)

thanks for the props!

I've not really used a giant much, my friend has one and it didnt perform particularly well (it got killed by a unit of dark elf spearmen in its first game) when he used it. I like the idea of a Ld10 stubborn unit which will typically survive 1-2 rounds of combat against elite troops/characters and even longer against wimpier stuff.

Part of my fear of using big gribblies like giants and shaggoths (and indeed the hellcannon) is that they are magnets for missile fire, my empire playing friend reduces them to a tub of guts very quickly, and against the undead (both vampires and tomb kings) they're not much use as they dont provide the nice static CR which deals with blocks of skeletons.

I use all kinds of lists, usually focused around a single god (slaanesh is my current favourite) I tend to use the points I would spend on fancy extra stuff on cheap units of marauders for the CR boost.

Typically I take something along the lines of:

exalted with berserker sword, enchanted shield, riding a boobworm
lord with blade of blood and pendant of slaanesh typically mounted
exalted with whip of slaanesh usually on foot
level 2 slaanesh sorcerer with either 2 scrolls or a power familiar

6 chosen slaanesh knights with the rapturous standard
6-8 mounted daemonettes
2X24 marauders with hw+shield
14 chosen warriors with halberds
2X5 mounted marauders with flails
1-2 spawn

that little lot is probably over 2000 points, but it's around what I'd usually take, sometimes the foot exalted will take the book of secrets.

I'll do a "proper" army list later (ie. when I'm not at work!)

der_lex
24-11-2006, 13:32
I don't usually take spawns for the exact same reason, because they tend to die too quickly because of missile fire. They are a relatively cheap missile attractor, but somehow I never have a need for them in that role.
I still try to experiment with them, though. I hated Marauder Horsemen at first too, but then I figured out how to use them and now they're a definite mainstay in my armies. Everything has a function, the only question is whether it's something you need in the armies you build.

On that note, I have to admit that a Hellcannon in a Slaanesh list isn't really necessary, due to Slaanesh's speed and powerful magic. But it can be worth it in a Khorne list to make up for lack of speed, and definitely in a Tzeentch list such as my own, where you can use it along with your magic to force your foe to come to your cleverly positioned units.

Shaitan
24-11-2006, 13:39
I love Chaos Spawns! They are very well capable of holding a flank.
Even against (Cold One) Knights they can stand a few rounds.
(when they survive the first round the Knights need 6's to wound)

I eally like the Mark of Slaanesh on them, this gives them much more mobility...

kyussinchains
24-11-2006, 13:54
I don't usually take spawns for the exact same reason, because they tend to die too quickly because of missile fire. They are a relatively cheap missile attractor, but somehow I never have a need for them in that role.
I still try to experiment with them, though. I hated Marauder Horsemen at first too, but then I figured out how to use them and now they're a definite mainstay in my armies. Everything has a function, the only question is whether it's something you need in the armies you build.

On that note, I have to admit that a Hellcannon in a Slaanesh list isn't really necessary, due to Slaanesh's speed and powerful magic. But it can be worth it in a Khorne list to make up for lack of speed, and definitely in a Tzeentch list such as my own, where you can use it along with your magic to force your foe to come to your cleverly positioned units.

I find that spawn are a real nuisance, your opponent cannot ignore them because they can potentially be quite nasty, but they take a fair amount of shots to kill, which draws some fire away from my main units!

I dont really play khorne any more, I used to play it all the time, but I enjoy the models and feel of the other powers so much more now. I tend to go for the dragon in my tzeentch army rather than the hellcannon.

der_lex
24-11-2006, 14:15
A dragon in your Tzeentch army? That might be a bit too effective. I've basically taken a solemn vow to the players over here that I'd never take one. We're not really into powerplaying much over here.

kyussinchains
24-11-2006, 14:47
I dont think it's that powerful, with a tzeentch lord on the back, it costs over 800 points, you cant afford too many other extravagances in an army with a dragon, it also needs to do a lot of damage to justify its inclusion, and even with the golden eye, cannonballs will eventually get through and do some damage, not to mention massed handgun or reapeater bolt thrower fire.

I own the old chaos dragon model and I like to make use of it!

edit: having said that, I've not played tzeentch in anything less than an 8k big game in years and years

Chris_Tzeentch
24-11-2006, 15:07
I'm trying to fit a dragon and a hellcannon in my 2250 point list. I have to admit, its not easy!!!

der_lex
24-11-2006, 15:59
Ye gods, I already have trouble fitting just the hellcannon in a tzeentch list that goes under 2500 points...

Reinnon
25-11-2006, 02:37
thats too many eggs in two baskets (does that work?)

tzeentch is already expensive enough

Chris_Tzeentch
25-11-2006, 08:03
I'm beginning to realise that. I think I will go for a more stand off and blast with magic type army, and then go for the kill. I'll have to abandon the dragon. Maybe when the codex gets redone they will give us a cheaper flying beastie. Although then the Eye of Tzeentch will either dissappear or be watered down. We will have to wait and see....

Voltaire
25-11-2006, 08:32
A cheaper flying beastie would be the Disk of Tzeentch my friend.

Chris_Tzeentch
25-11-2006, 08:41
Very true, but it is a little on the slow side. This 15" float nonsense annoys me. I have been into GW games for 21 years, and I have always had a soft spot for Tzeentch. The fluff has always indicated that discs of tzeentch are lightning fast. The current rules dont represent that. Anyway, I digress. The disc is also pretty weak in combat also. I was thinking of a flying beastie like the old Chimera, which was a pretty nasty monster, but cheaper than a dragon. One of my first Tzeentch generals way back in 3rd or 4th Ed used to fly around on a Griffon!! How times have changed!

Chris_Tzeentch
25-11-2006, 08:47
I think the disc of tzeentch makes an ideal floating platform for tzeentch generals to manouvre and blast away at the enemy with magic from, particularly with the protection from the eye. This is what my general will be doing. My army is going to revolve around magic and shooting (think Hellcannon, Horrors, flamers, maybe mercenary crossbowmen). The rest of the boys will stand well back and wait for the enemy to be whittled down before closing in for the kill. Is this how most of you Tzeentch generals operate?

Reinnon
30-11-2006, 14:34
ok peeps, i have a question for you

i'm putting together a themed chaos tzeentch army (just need to wait for xmas for the money to buy it) but i need some help on character selection.

the army can be found here

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54103

now, i'm building the 2000 point army first, but i'm not sure where to put my heroes, as they both mounted on steeds but i only have 1 mounted unit (the knights)

putting two exalted champions in one unit of chaos knights will make one heck of a unit, but also a very big target to kill.

but, i can't really leave one of the champions out on his own or he will be shot quicker then you can say "orange fire".

is it worth while putting in a BsB instead and place in one of my large blocks of marauders?

thanks in advance

Yves
04-12-2006, 18:32
Hey I just started playing chaos:

I'm pretty addicted allready and i try to paint and play as often as possible.
I got 3 friends who started playing aswell, so i m playing against them most of the time. I m doing quite well but atm my "tactic" is to hammer everything down with chosen knights. Its still working but once they come up with something to to bring those knights down im done for it. So i m up for some more advance tactics :p

I like slaanesh en tzeetch, i bought a wide range of figures so i should be able to build a decent army.

Atm we play 1500, my friends: 1 Wood Elf, 1 high elf and 1 has VC and new orcs&gobs

I play with different setup to try out new things but i fear many things so be prepared cus this post will be long :)

The setup i like most:

ECC + blade of blood + enchanted shield + steed of slanesh (general) + sl mark 209pnt
ECC + Helm o many eyes + sword o battle + chaos steed (Und) 172pnt
Bray sham + 2x disp scroll (und) 131pnt
5 Chosen chaos knights Full command + war banner (und) 300
22marauders + Stand, musc +light armour 147
10 chaos warriors with halberts (Und) 160
Beast herd 11gors, 8 ungors + stand, musc 124pnt
5 chaos warhounds 30pnt
1 fiend of slaanesh 75pnt
5 mounted daemonettes 150pnt

1498pnt alltogether.

tactic fast rush the flank with deamonettes+general, shield the knights with the dogs and headcharge with knights+ecc.
Beastherd and marauders centre with the warriors between them a bit back to flank attackers. Shaman is a simple caddy either joining beastherd or behind the batle lines.
downside no general Ld for the infantry, no shield for inf.

Maybe to many points on the heroes for 1,5K game ? yet they are v strong

or

ECC + helm o many eyes + sword of battle 150pnt
Bray sham + 2x disp scroll (und) 131pnt
24 marauders + full command + light armour + shields 183pnt
5 Chosen chaos knights + full command + war banner (Und) 300pnt
6 chaos warhounds 36pnt
6 chaos warhounds36pnt
12 chaos warriors + shields + musc + 2n weapon (und) 222pnt
20 beas herd (12gors/8ungors) + musc, stand (und) 131pnt
5 mar horsemen + flails, shield, musc 91pnt
5 mounted daemonettes 150pnt
1 fiend of slaanesh 75pnt

together 1499pnt

lineup hounds hounds
spawn - Marauderblock - warriors - beastherd - knights - horsemen- nets.
ECC in the marauderblock

My main problems:
My friend who plays woodelf has got 3x8dryads, 8+waywatchers, 10 archers, some fast cav, 8+ wardancers.

He puts the waywatchers in a forrest if i deploy my knights too soon or across my knights to pick em off with killing blow arrowss, the dogs protect me but not long + force up a panictest(could give the knigths slaan mark)
his dryads dont have ranks but they outmanouvre me and get the charge most of the time, even with the full command they manage to break my marauders with there 2 x 7 str4 attacks, they fear my beastherd (if general isnt near, mainly first army list).

So how do you take on these skirmishers ? they are faster and they got a 360&#176; angle.

His heroes are painfull as well especially with the spikes you only hit on 6s.

And no unit can hold a stand and shoot of 8+waywatchers with killing blow and bs 5 :/

When he isnt using these he puts down a treeman, wich seems impossible to kill without fire :/ Any help on that ?

atm i got no problem with vc, orcs and high elfs. I easily outmanenouvre them. The Wood elf player is more to it wth tactics and reading up then the other friends :)

thx for hanging on and reading my post :)

cheers
Yves

Zanzibarthefirst
07-12-2006, 10:43
A question about the hellcannon, can this be used in normal hordes of chaos armies or only in Archaons horde?

Neknoh
07-12-2006, 11:23
It can be used in any chaos army, as long as your general is Mortal and you have at least 2 rare choices free, however, outside of Archaons Horde, it is a 0-1 choice

Zanzibarthefirst
07-12-2006, 12:49
i havent got any problems with that, should be good in my 2000pts army then.

Khadhar'phak
31-12-2006, 20:11
I'm starting a new undivided army. I was wondering wether you would suggest a unit of Knights, or chariot. Both have the bonus of fast movement, and both are really hard hitting in combat. I just wondered which in your opinion is best.

Neknoh
31-12-2006, 20:31
I would go for the Chariot, it costs slightly less and is an even more low-priority target of your enemy to take out, plus, you'd have the model for later, Chaos Knights are expensive to get for a newstarted army, so, the Chariot would be nice, maybe even mount an Exalted Champion in it?

Khadhar'phak
31-12-2006, 20:37
That's a nice thought indeed, but for now, I'll be keeping the chariot core, as I only have one other core choice, and I would like to start playing soon. Thanks for the help!

Neknoh
31-12-2006, 20:43
The Chariot would still count as core

May I have a look at your list?

Khadhar'phak
31-12-2006, 20:59
Ok: No real points limit.
Exalted champion of Chaos Undivided: additional hand weapon, shield armour of tortured souls, :146
12 Chaos undivided Warriors: Shields, full command: 210
1 Chariot of Chaos Undivided: 120

total: 476

For now I'm planning on Border patrol sized games. The chariot would stay Core? I thought you bought it for the character like equipment?

I'm trying to

Neknoh
31-12-2006, 21:06
Chosen from the Core selection replacing one of the crew


Anyhow, for that low a points game, I would consider replacing the Chariot with a unit of Marauder Horsemen (5 with Flails and Musician will cost you 81 points), then give Additional Handweapons to the Warriors, this will result in a very hardy army... and your Exalted may want the Armour of Damnation instead

Khadhar'phak
31-12-2006, 21:09
Unfortunately, I hate the marauder horsemen models, and I'm trying to theme my army to be a warrior warband. I also can't convert to save my life ^^;. Are there any other magic items you would suggest?

Neknoh
31-12-2006, 21:11
If you mount your Exalted in a Chariot, then drop all thoughts on protective gear, instead, pick up the Berserker Sword and the Enchanted Shield

Silverhelm steed bodies
Chaos Steed (knights steed) heads
Gor arms
Marauder upper body
Chaos Warrior head

Khadhar'phak
31-12-2006, 21:15
Are those components for marauder horsemen?

Neknoh
31-12-2006, 21:18
For very nicely looking Marauder Horsemen that remind of the Hung riders in the Chaos book, can't find a picture of them, but there was a guy who converted his khornate Marauder Horsemen this way, and they looked VERY mean is all I need to say.

Khadhar'phak
31-12-2006, 21:19
Ok, I'll look them up on the store. Are they all from the plastic sets?

Neknoh
31-12-2006, 21:44
basically everything, only the horseheads needed are metallic

Khadhar'phak
31-12-2006, 21:46
Ok. When I expand the army, would it be worth looking into daemons? And if so, which power do you think would be best?

Neknoh
31-12-2006, 21:52
Depends on what you want, you want quick cavalry hunters and excelent flankers? Then Slaaneshi Mounted Daemonettes are the unit for you, you want harassers and magic backup? Then go for the Horrors and Screamers of Tzeentch, Nurglings add some serious bite to your Chaos Warrior units when they engage in the same combat, and khornate Fleshhounds are excelent at tearing enemy wizards and fast cavalry to shreds

Khadhar'phak
31-12-2006, 21:59
Ok then, thanks. Where are the rules for mounted Daemonettes?

Neknoh
31-12-2006, 22:03
http://uk.games-workshop.com/ can be found on here, my internett is rioting ATM, so can't give a more precise link

Khadhar'phak
31-12-2006, 22:07
Cheers anyway, I'll find them

Neknoh
12-03-2007, 23:16
Due to the sudden surge in chaos players, I feel it justified to reanimate this thread from the nearly dead.

¤casts spell with IF¤


Well, what say you, any suggestions for what DoW chaos could take for fun? I myself reckomend mengil manhides manflayers, they are just lovely!

kruzkal
13-03-2007, 01:02
Death, well... what can I say, death is death. The Death Lore is best used in conjunction with Tzeentch magic due to the chance of getting Doom and Darkness, which, if combined with Violet Fire, can sapp even a Blood Dragon lord into the warp.

Aren't Undead immune to psychology and therefore immune to Doom & Darkness?

MarcoPollo
13-03-2007, 01:12
Thanks for the re-animation Neknoh.

I like death magic for beast scroll caddies. With 2 level 1 scroll caddies, you can force you opponent to have to dispell 2 adequate magic missles. Not shabby for a scroll caddy.

Your Mum Rang
13-03-2007, 10:24
How would you lads go about building a Bloodthirster-led Beasts army?

I'm struggling.

Neknoh
13-03-2007, 12:51
first of all, it is impossible, Bloodthirsters can NOT take the "Unliving Idol" gift, however, a daemonic army with loads of beasts, I would go for something allong the lines of:

2 units of 14 Bloodletters (2 ranks), 7 Furies and 5 Flesh Hounds.

Now, 2 large Beastherds, a Chariot and a unit of Minotaurs will make a very nice special choice selection, then, it's all about how many points you've got left, but I'd try to fit in two Bloodbeasts of Khorne and a unit of Dragon Ogres to add that final bit of punch and finnisher.

Black Behemoth
13-03-2007, 13:12
Hello fellow Chaos players. I'm just getting into Chaos. I want to have a strictly Mortal army and have some questions.

Is a Lord on a Dragon even worth the points? I have seen a monster, with the new rules, consolidate through an entire army and rip it apart, but it also makes the rest of the army weaker.

Is using a Dragon at 2000 points considered cheesy or unsportsmanlike?

Which is a more efficient (point for point) mark? Slaanesh or Khorne?

Is an all-Mortal army a good or bad idea?

Should I give my Marauders light armor?

If I mass them up, should I give Marauders shields, flails, or extra hand weapons?

How effective are Chariots?

Would a Hellcannon be a good addition?

pcgamer72
13-03-2007, 15:38
Is a Lord on a Dragon even worth the points? I have seen a monster, with the new rules, consolidate through an entire army and rip it apart, but it also makes the rest of the army weaker.

-Don't have too much time, so I have to keep my responses brief. I wouldn't take a Lord on a Dragon at anything below 2,250 points for sure. And he probably won't really prove beneficial till 2,500.

Is using a Dragon at 2000 points considered cheesy or unsportsmanlike?

-Eh, not imo. Sure it can be tough for some armies to kill, but the sheer % of the army it takes up at 2,000 (after adding the lord to it) is insane.

Which is a more efficient (point for point) mark? Slaanesh or Khorne?

-Slaanesh.

Is an all-Mortal army a good or bad idea?

-It'll work okay. Might want two units of Knights though to make up for Minotaurs/Dragon Ogres.

Should I give my Marauders light armor?

-Yes.

If I mass them up, should I give Marauders shields, flails, or extra hand weapons?

-If you're talking a 20+ man unit, I'd definitely say shields. Use them as the Anvils and Chaos Warriors as your Hammer in an all-mortal list.

How effective are Chariots?

-Very. Especially in pairs.

Would a Hellcannon be a good addition?

-It really depends on the rest of your army composition. They can be very deadly, but then again they seem to rampage through their own player's armies quite often (at least when I've seen them)

Black Behemoth
13-03-2007, 16:06
-It really depends on the rest of your army composition. They can be very deadly, but then again they seem to rampage through their own player's armies quite often (at least when I've seen them)

What if I had a unit of Horsemen to act as a shepherd? It would be the closest unit to the Hellcannon, so it would charge toward it. Then, it will lure the Cannon toward the enemy and rampage into them.

MarcoPollo
13-03-2007, 16:35
A hellcannon can be a tricky piece. It can devastate an entire army in one turn or it can devastate your own army in one turn. You have to be a good shot to use it well and need to prioritize your shooting. If your opponent has a horde with relatively good ld, then you might be in trouble with a hellcannon (skaven). But if your opponent has an elite army with relatively low ld (bretonian) then the Hellcannon will be highly effective. But again, it all comes down to how good a shot you are.

As for slaanesh or khorne, I use slaanesh for speed and khorne for power. A nice mix of both is a good idea.

Neknoh
14-03-2007, 22:38
however, on the fluffy side of things, mixing Khorne and Slaanesh is comitting ultimate sacrilege lest you have a VERY good reason for it

Da Boyzz
15-03-2007, 00:52
Wow, i just finished reading all 12 pages... LOL, What an AWSOME thread!

I am buying my army book today, so i will be posting up soon, with many questions Lol.

p.s. Love this thread!

MarcoPollo
15-03-2007, 02:15
however, on the fluffy side of things, mixing Khorne and Slaanesh is comitting ultimate sacrilege lest you have a VERY good reason for it

Very true Neknoh!

But then again, mixing any two deities would be sacriliege too.

The only combo's I don't take are Khorne armies with undivided mages. That just seems wrong. I like the honor of having to judge carefully the dispell dice at your disposal when your general is khorne. But that's just my taste. I have no problem from a gaming standpoint if players want to mix and match.

kruzkal
15-03-2007, 02:19
It's all about the Martial Pride!

pcgamer72
15-03-2007, 04:53
I don't really mind if people mixx too much.. aside from Khorne with magic. Grr!

But I hate.... hate.... Undivided.

Da Boyzz
15-03-2007, 05:06
Ok i just got back from the store... i have in my hands the HoC Army book and a lovely box of chaos marauders :]

Now my question is: What to do next??? Lol :evilgrin:

pcgamer72
15-03-2007, 05:12
Well, I would suggest reading through the book and then putting those guys together :P. I would probably build them HW/S since they are the first thing you have.

Da Boyzz
15-03-2007, 07:10
Ok i have read though the book quite a bit.
And so far i have come up with this for my Heroes slots for a 2000pt army.

Exalted champion
MoS, Sword of change, Armour of damnation, Gaze of Gods, Bindings of Slaanesh.
305pts

(Is that legal to have all that equipment?)

Chaos Sorceror
Lvl2, MoS, Power familiar
190pts

Chaos Sorceror
MoS, Dispell Scroll x2
135pts

Plus, what effect do flais have compared to the other options, Cause i really like the look of flails :]

kruzkal
15-03-2007, 11:57
Your Exalted Champion may only take up to 50 points worth of magic items.

I would also suggest getting the rule book. Flails +2 Strength first turn of combat and requires two hands.

Your Mum Rang
15-03-2007, 17:22
Big blocks of Marauders with Shields flanked by 10-man flail units. YUM!

Coenono
15-03-2007, 20:36
So I have spent the couple days reading this thred and thought what the hell ill join. Ive just recently got back into warhammer and my heart has always been with the dark ones since day one. I do have some figures left over and would like to fit them in, That beeing said I also like some of the other figures but Im not sure what i should include and what i should go. I have 5 old ass knights...at least 15 old warriors since they are all differt models useing different weapons i think this makes a good chosen unit as these are the best "warriors from around the realm banded together to cause mass carnage. I also have some of the single pose bestmen ( which could make a good bestigor herd unit) So since i need a herd to have a bestigor im going to go Beast in my 2000 pts army.... O i also have the old abadon figure which I'd proable make a Exalted on Demonic steed, 2 bray shamans and a wargor figure(s). That being said I like the Minotaurs so would like a unit of them and a Doombull to lead my army. After reading this thread Id like to get some trolls in there as well as some Dragon Ogers, Along with everyones favorite little pets the Furies. Come to find out thats proably not all going to fit in a 2000 pt army. What do you mighty champions think should go. I already have the warriors knights bestigors so id like to use those figures.

Neknoh
15-03-2007, 22:44
Go for a Beastlord, not a Wargor, since a Beastlord has the same Ld as the Exalted, the Beastlord can be the general and thus you can field a beast army.

So, your army would look something like:


Beastlord w. mark and Daemonsword maybe?

2 Bray Shamans, lvl 2 with goodies

Exalted Champion on D-steed w. Berserker Sword

Core:
2 large-ish herds (one for a Bray, the other for the Beastlord)
1 Bestigor unit of appropriate mark
1-2 Chariots

Special:
5 Chosen Knights
3-4 Trolls
7 Furies

Rare:
3 Dragon Ogres
2 Spawns


would it not?

Coenono
15-03-2007, 23:02
So I should forget about the Minotaurs all together

oops got happy with the enter button.

Because I thought it was cool to have the Doombull so Minotaurs are core that way i dont have to buy another bestherd

Also I have those warriors who are already bought and payed for ( and for the most part painted)

Astromarine
16-03-2007, 00:09
Would you guys say that a block of 20 warriors with both shields and 2HW are too much in a 1500pt undivided army list? I'm playing a game against a friend of mine and I've been trying to convince him that this unit is WAY too expensive. What would you say? His 1500pt army is (not really sure of specifics) the above unit, another 20 marauders, a beast block of infantry (unsure of name), a unit of those beast skirmishers that ambush, some gargoyles, and characters.