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ShadowKnight64
15-07-2007, 02:23
Hey guys, i'm a long time 40k Player, but i wanted to try my hand at Fantasy seriously finally after a long go of just barely touching it... i know a tiny bit of the basics but nothing in depth or really how to make an army effective, i've read lots of the rules, but played very very few games... i just got a new army: Tomb Kings, and i'd really like some help as to know what to do with them... i know little about how to play and whats effective other than what i can draw things in from 40k... but please help me out, i need to make a list, im going to try getting a list together for a smaller amount of points that might be effective and take it into GW and see if someone will play with me and kinda help me out (campaign going on right now so everyone is into fantasy and nobody wants to play 40k... so i thought its a good time to start up into my Fantasy armies...)

Anyway, enough of my blabing...please help me out, this is the list of models and kinda what i though i could do with them

Heroes

Tomb Prince (100pts) – Great weapon (4pts) – Death Mask of Kharnut (causes Terror) (35pts)
- 139 Pts

Icon Bearer (65pts) – Golden Ankhra (4+ Ward Save) (45pts) – Banner of the Undying Legion (25pts)
- 110 Pts

Liche Priest (115pts) – Neferra’s Plagues of Mighty Incantations (re-roll dice for any incantations cast) (30pts)
- 145 Pts

Liche Priest (115pts) – Casket of Souls (165pts)
- 280 Pts

Liche Priest (115pts) – Skeletal Steed (8pts) – Neferra’s Plagues of Mighty Incantations (re-roll dice for any incantations cast) (30pts)
- 153 Pts

Core Units

Skeleton Warriors (8pts) (16) – Spears and Sheilds (1pt) – Musician (5pts) – Standard Bearer (10pts) – Champion (10pts)
- 169 Pts

Skeleton Warriors (8pts) (17) – Spears and Sheilds (1pt) – Musician (5pts) – Standard Bearer (10pts) – Champion (10pts)
- 178 Pts

Skeleton Warriors (8pts) (14) – Champion (10pts)
- 122 Pts

Skeleton Heavy Horsemen (16pts) (8) – Musician (7pts) – Standard Bearer (14pts) – Champion (14pts)
- 163 Pts

Tomb Swarm (45pts) (2)
- 90 Pts

Special Units

Chariots (40pts) (3) – Musician (10pts) – Standard Bearer (20pts) – Champion (20pts)
- 170 Pts

Carrion (24pts) (3)
- 72 Pts

Tomb Scorpion (85pts)
- 85 Pts

Rare Units

Bone Giant (220pts)
- 220 Pts

Roughly 2096 pts... not exactly a legal formation list...but im just trying to get ideas kinda going... as i dont really know what drives Tomb Kings and what makes them really good? i've read most of the fluff and love it but..yeah...little help? Please?

Lucky24/7
15-07-2007, 17:42
tk are drivien by there lords... in either the tomb king and high linch priest are vital to your game and if used incorectly, you will not win too often. A tk army (In My eyes) Should be built (at 2k) what choice of lord you are going to use. e.g tk on charriot normally makes for a very hard hitting unit and alows for core charriots, while a hlp allows for excessive amonts of spells to be cast ( with 1 High lp and a lp on a casket of souls and 2 tomb princes you get 12 power dice + what ever bound goddies you would want to give the army)

1st note at 2000 points in fatasy your only allowed 4 heros

2nd in tk lord choices are the key to your army... without them you will be at a major disadvantage

3rd Icon bearers are a bit sucky and the points are better spent on a lich preist or a tomb prince tbh

4th dont take a bone giant unless for fluff reasons as for the same points you can get 2 screaming skull catapults with skullz of the foe.. this and a high linch priest can result in 4 shots a turn ... meaning lots of jucy panic tests at -1 ld (however at 2k its 2 screaming skullz or a casket and a screaming skull)

Just genral points not a definative list btw :D

ShadowKnight64
15-07-2007, 18:35
thanks for the bit of help but... i've gotta ask, what do i start adding to this list? if i was trying to make an actual list to play with? is mine totally wrong? i have no idea what im doing so im just throwing stuff together that kinda looks good, i'd prefer to organize it that it all works together but i dont really know what to use to make it that way...

Btw what do i use for my Lord choices? do you leave them bare and just use them for their powers? or do you load them out and just make them the best thing in your army..?

And why no Bone Giants? they seem pretty damned good? 3+ armor save even is awesome? but i do like the model? why is it bad to run them? i really know little about fantasy but yeah... what if i dropped the icon bearer and ran a lord and 3 liche priests?

ShadowKnight64
15-07-2007, 18:37
i really love the idea of Tombkings magic and i really would love to get full use out of it? what would someone recomend using?

Arnizipal
15-07-2007, 19:04
I know a bit about Tomb Kings as one of my main opponents plays them, so I face them regularly.

Your army seems a bit all over the place but that's understandable. :)
First you have to think about how you want to play. Do you want big blocks of infantry with a lot of static combat result (extra ranks, outnumbering,... ) or a small army of elites that hit hard and fast?

At 2000 points you are allowed 4 character choices. These can all be heroes. Alternatively you can take a lord and three heroes. I'd really go for the lord choice. A Tomb King or a High Liche Priest can really make a difference.

If you take an Icon Bearer you'll have to choose between a magic item or a magic banner. He can't have both.

Magic items are unique in most cases, so only one of your Liche Priests can have Neferra's Plaque. Speaking of Liche Priest equipment: have a look at the Cloak of the Dunes. Most of the Tomb King spells have a rather short range and undead move very slowly as it is. This item can really help to get your priest to where he's needed the most.
The Hieratic Jar is also a very good item for when you absolutely need a spell to get through. This item allows you to cast an extra spell once in the game.

Skeletons should always be fielded in units of at least 20. They are very poor fighters and any smaller units won't survive very long.
Archer are an exception to this of course.

I would advise against using Heavy Horsemen. They aren't very well armoured and cavalry attracks a lot of enemy fire usually. The Horsemen's charge is also rather weak compared to other cavalry.
I think you'd be better off with beefing up your skeleton units some more.

Bonegiants are damn scary. They tear up my poor Orcs like they're not even there. Try them out for a little while and see if you like how they play. :)

ShadowKnight64
15-07-2007, 19:35
well i do like the idea of large overwhelming blocks of Skeletons that i can re-enforce with preists magic and a few unique units that just ravage stuff...such as a Giant or Casket of Souls... i just really want to kinda work out a way to effectively use one or the other...

What is the key to fantasy though? i so far have come down to comparing up combat results... combat resolution is far better than just killing stuff...you can probably inflict 3-4 wounds on a unit of skeletons without too much trouble, but for combat resolution...they outnumber, have a banner, have a champion, and have multiple ranks, and maybe just inflict one would...and they cause fear, they win over most stuff.... just because of combat resolution...

its hard to know what their weaknesses are.... its not like they have to take out big tanks and whatnot, i just dont know what would make or break armies in fantasy? if i was to run a couple big blocks of skeletons and just upgrade tons of my Lord and heroes and just run a couple other things like scorpions or a giant to refuse a flank on my skeleton blocks, and just take it to them... is that a reasonable idea to run? or am i going to fail miserably?

kyussinchains
15-07-2007, 19:37
I would take big blocks of skeleton warriors, 30 is good because you want to outnumber your opponent.

Forget spears, the 4+ armour save from HW+shield outweighs the extra few pathetic attacks that spears provide.

I would suggest taking a liche high priest, a regular priest and two tomb princes, the liche high priest can use two incantations AND gets an extra dice over a regular priest, he's orders of magnitude better!

against low LD armies like empire and orcs, the casket of souls is a great buy, it can even net you a few kills against elf units and the like

bone giants are pretty nasty, but are huge targets and can be shot to bits in short order

check

http://www.warseer.com/warhammer_fantasy_armies_overview_0

for more advice, we wrote it for people like yourself and I hope it helps!

kyussinchains
15-07-2007, 19:44
sorry for the double post

they key to winning games of warhammer is down to breaking your opponents, static combat resolution (ranks, standards, outnumber etc) is great, and cheap troops are the equal of elites in this area.

protecting your flanks whilst exploiting your opponents is the key really as well as balancing tough killy troops against more numerous ones!

you'll learn more as you play, just dont get 'stat blindness' as many 40k players seem to do, and pick stuff because it looks tough on paper!

ShadowKnight64
15-07-2007, 19:50
well thanks a bunch, i'll definately read it, but why handweapons and sheild? why not spears? it gives a whole row of extra attacks? and with skeletons dont you need it? or is it that the points cost? dont you get a +1 Str on the charge because of it? what do you get for having HW's? is it that you save the extra points? but even if you did a huge unit of like 30 skeletons its still only 30 pts extra for the spears... it isnt that big of points sink for even a few extra attacks?

Arnizipal
15-07-2007, 19:57
What is the key to fantasy though? i so far have come down to comparing up combat results... combat resolution is far better than just killing stuff...you can probably inflict 3-4 wounds on a unit of skeletons without too much trouble, but for combat resolution...they outnumber, have a banner, have a champion, and have multiple ranks, and maybe just inflict one would...and they cause fear, they win over most stuff.... just because of combat resolution...

its hard to know what their weaknesses are.... its not like they have to take out big tanks and whatnot, i just dont know what would make or break armies in fantasy? if i was to run a couple big blocks of skeletons and just upgrade tons of my Lord and heroes and just run a couple other things like scorpions or a giant to refuse a flank on my skeleton blocks, and just take it to them... is that a reasonable idea to run? or am i going to fail miserably?
The problem with skeletons is that they're very mediocre infantry. For 9 points you have a trooper with a 4+ save in close combat, but with a WS of 2, an Initiative of 2 and Strength and Toughness 3. Empire, Orc and Goblins, Skaven and even Dwarfs have equal or better troops at sometimes almost half the points cost of a tooled up skeleton.

That means that theoretically your 20 skeletons could be outnumbered two to one by equal (and often better) fighters.
That's why it's important to tool up your Tomb Kings and Princes so they can shift the balance in your advantage. A 20-man skeleton unit will provide rank-bonus (and outnumbering if you're lucky) while the Tomb King in the unit will do all of the killing.
Kills are important because you want to outnumber your opponent as soon as possible so you have a chance at auto-breaking them.


EDIT: Spears allow the second rank to attack as well (though not if you charged). The +1 Strength is only for cavalry.
Light armour, handweapon and shield will give you a 4+ save in close combat (still 5+ versus shooting). Light armour, spear and shield gives you a 5+ save in close combat.
Skeletons have WS2 and Strength 3 so they won't kill much. They are good at providing static combat result though (especially since you can raise them). This is why the extra save is important.

ShadowKnight64
15-07-2007, 20:18
Put tombkings and priests into units? or is it better to leave them out? i can understand getting my tombkings into the units to see them into the actual fighting and make a difference, but priests i want to leave them out of the units, keeping them behind my skeleton blocks and heal them and kinda help them to turn the tide, getting an extra round of cc or w/e is needed...

The incantation that makes the skeletons take and extra round of shooting or a round of cc but does the other unit they are engaged with get attack backs? because that might not be for the best if they get attack backs? if skeletons are attacking at I2... that could really get them slaughtered before they even have a chance at winning combat??

what is it that makes Hw's have a different save than spears in CC? i maybe i missed reading something or i didnt know about it...but yeah could someone please refresh me on that?

And im really apprieciating the feedback guys...

kyinpie
16-07-2007, 00:10
these are some of the changes i would do



Heroes

Tomb king - light armour - destroyer of eternities - enchanted shield - talisman of protection
268pts add to tomb gaurd unit

Icon Bearer light armour - war banner
92 pts (u cannot have magic items AND a magic banner, its either or!!) - add him to tomb gaurd unit

Liche Priest (hirophant) Neferra’s Plagues of Mighty Incantations - cloak of dunes
165pts cloak makes a quick get away when the enemy gets close

Liche Priest dispell scroll x2
165pts depends what army ur using, u may want a casket, eg against scaven its a must, but usless against dwarfs.

NOTE keep ur priests behind catapults to get extra shoots with them

Core Units

Skeleton Warriors x 20 hand weapon - shield - light armour - bow - full command
205pts set up 10x2 and shoot whilst edging forward, when close enough reform into a block unit.

Tomb Swarm x 5
225Pts use the from below rules to come up around the artilliary and archers

chariots x 3 full cammand - icon of the sacred eye
220pts use these to run around the rear/flanks to support the stronger units

NOTE dont bother with the steeds, they r rubbish!! every time i use them they fail misirably

Special Units

tomb gaurd x20 full command - banner of the undying liegion
295pts this is the strongest unit in the whole army!! use the banner to keep ur numbers up. add this unit with the tomb king and icon bearer. this unit is solid.

Tomb Scorpion x 2
170Pts use the from below rule to appear around the center of the table in front of enemy block units with charectors in them, when they come up charge stright away into the unit and have all ur attacks on the charectors. whith the killing blow these are charector killers.

Rare Units

Screaming skull catapults x2 skulls of the foe
220Pts


around 2000pt mark

but this is a good list that i have used maney times. i have changed it a bit now and then depending on the army im facing!!! i hope this helps a bit!

Arnizipal
16-07-2007, 01:37
Put tombkings and priests into units? or is it better to leave them out? i can understand getting my tombkings into the units to see them into the actual fighting and make a difference, but priests i want to leave them out of the units, keeping them behind my skeleton blocks and heal them and kinda help them to turn the tide, getting an extra round of cc or w/e is needed...

Tomb Kings and Tomb Princes you want in units so they can put their high stats to good use. Priests you can keep on their own, but remember they make juicy targets for your opponent's shooting and magic so you might want to consider keeping them in a unit and having them leave the unit before it gets into combat.



The incantation that makes the skeletons take and extra round of shooting or a round of cc but does the other unit they are engaged with get attack backs? because that might not be for the best if they get attack backs? if skeletons are attacking at I2... that could really get them slaughtered before they even have a chance at winning combat??

The spell only affect your unit so your oppoent doesn't get to fight back. Also note that the spell only allows for one attck per model (so even lords and heroes only gat one attack) and combat result isn't worked out so your opponent's unit can't break from combat.



what is it that makes Hw's have a different save than spears in CC? i maybe i missed reading something or i didnt know about it...but yeah could someone please refresh me on that?

Handweapon and shield gives you a 'parry save' which improves your save with an extra +1 in close combat. Spear and shield doesn't get this extra save.

ShadowKnight64
16-07-2007, 03:43
Thank for you explaining that, i still think the spears are pretty good, but maybe im wrong, the units i have currently are all spears..but im going to change any that i get from now on to just Hw's...

How large of units are effective? like units like tomb guard? whats enough to do the job they need? 10? 20? 30?

I liked the list from kyinpie but i think that i'd wanna have another large unit of skeletons, i'd want two at like 30...seeing as how they will never break, they seem like they would stand up to anything and last a long while... i wouldnt run any tomb swarms and take the points for another big block of skeletons, but the problems i see with running large units... is that they easily can be flanked? as they have a much larger flank with alot of ranks...

What can i do to stop people from flanking my skeleton blocks? I still think that i would enjoy Bone Giants over Catapults...but maybe thats not going to do me for getting more wins, but they seem alot more fun than the catapults... yes catapults seem mean and desimate units, but i wanted it to make it a bit more fluffy... i doubt im going to be going to care about wins and losses for my fantasy armies as it sits, im only doing it fun and a project, seeing as i dont know how to play as well, i dont mind losing moreso that just having some fun with them... is that a bad way to go about it?

druchii
16-07-2007, 04:12
Thank for you explaining that, i still think the spears are pretty good, but maybe im wrong, the units i have currently are all spears..but im going to change any that i get from now on to just Hw's...

How large of units are effective? like units like tomb guard? whats enough to do the job they need? 10? 20? 30?

I liked the list from kyinpie but i think that i'd wanna have another large unit of skeletons, i'd want two at like 30...seeing as how they will never break, they seem like they would stand up to anything and last a long while... i wouldnt run any tomb swarms and take the points for another big block of skeletons, but the problems i see with running large units... is that they easily can be flanked? as they have a much larger flank with alot of ranks...

What can i do to stop people from flanking my skeleton blocks? I still think that i would enjoy Bone Giants over Catapults...but maybe thats not going to do me for getting more wins, but they seem alot more fun than the catapults... yes catapults seem mean and desimate units, but i wanted it to make it a bit more fluffy... i doubt im going to be going to care about wins and losses for my fantasy armies as it sits, im only doing it fun and a project, seeing as i dont know how to play as well, i dont mind losing moreso that just having some fun with them... is that a bad way to go about it?


As to the size of the units, it depends.

TG are something I've got very little experience with, I'd experiement with a unit of 20, as 25 seems absolutely expensive when added up on paper.

For skeleton units, I prefer 25 man blocks. I run two blocks, one with HW/shield and the other with spears. I like variety, and I also like armies that don't look like everyone elses'.

Don't look at it like "if my flank is big, i'll get charged more". It's more like "if I leave my flank exposed, It'll get charged more." More models=better. The tactics of protecting flanks is something that an entire book could be written on, but you can usually deter someone from charging that juicy flank by not exposing it, anchoring it against a terrain feature, or using another unit to counter-charge.

d

ps. It is NEVER a "bad" idea to want to have fun at warhammer, if you ever start playing for any other reason, I strongly suggest you stop, buy a 360 and come play Halo 2 with me :D

momfreeek
16-07-2007, 04:21
you pay 1 point for spears adding more than 10% to the unit cost. The extra attacks can only be used to the front. Against the weakest units you will get less than one extra kill on average. Against most units the spears will have almost no effect.

+1 save for HW+Sh: You can also only use it to the front. Against strong units, you will be making a lot of saving throws.. assuming you lose combat, each saved skelly will save you 2 (cause you also lose combat by 1 less) and may give you an extra attack.

spears are better vs goblins and useless stuff. But 10% more models in the unit is maybe just as useful and most of the time you haven't got to worry too much about these guys.. its the tough guys that will give you problems. Against anything half decent extra armour will be far better.

The general rule that armour is better value than weaponry goes for magic items as well. Combat characters are generally best equipped with a great weapon and some nice armour or ward save.

Arnizipal
16-07-2007, 22:25
Thank for you explaining that, i still think the spears are pretty good, but maybe im wrong, the units i have currently are all spears..but im going to change any that i get from now on to just Hw's...

Try one of both and see how it works out. A lot depends on your playing style but generally HW+shield is better.



How large of units are effective? like units like tomb guard? whats enough to do the job they need? 10? 20? 30?

Tomb Guard are quite pricey, so 20 will suffice.



I liked the list from kyinpie but i think that i'd wanna have another large unit of skeletons, i'd want two at like 30...seeing as how they will never break, they seem like they would stand up to anything and last a long while... i wouldnt run any tomb swarms and take the points for another big block of skeletons, but the problems i see with running large units... is that they easily can be flanked? as they have a much larger flank with alot of ranks...

What can i do to stop people from flanking my skeleton blocks? I still think that i would enjoy Bone Giants over Catapults...
Bonegiants make excellent flank guardians. :)

Also note that even though undead won't break from combat, they will still crumble. Basically instead of taking a Ld test with a modifier equal to the number you lose combat with, you just lose a number of models equal to the number you lost combat with.

ShadowKnight64
17-07-2007, 00:21
well yes i do realize that you do lose alot more skeletons, but a unit of 30 with Liche backing raising more, seems like they'd do o-k and last a while....they'd have to ravage quite a few skeletons to totally devastate the unit in less than 2 turns...