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Greyfire
15-07-2007, 15:59
In a few games I've seen someone with a shooty unit do a basic move next to a building to enter it, and then shoot out of the building. Sounds legal, only the building was 6" x 4" with the 6" stretching towards the target. In effect it allowed extra movement that enabled the unit to shoot further than they normally would.

The unit didn't march so it may enter the build and can also still shoot. That's legit. The rules say all distances to the unit are measured to and from the building. So as written this seems to be legal.

Am I missing a rule somewhere that prevents this? Something like "a unit that moves into a building may not shoot on the turn the unit enters it?"

Hand-in-hand with this is the idea that you set the same piece of scenery half-in and half-out of your deployment zone. Then during deployment you put a unit of troops with move-or-fire weapons into it. Now at game start when the unit goes to shoot the building is used as the starting point for measuring the shot. So there's a bit of extra movement there that doesn't prevent the shooting. Any rule (other than agreeing you can't deploy into buildings) to prevent this?

Thanks for your help.

-=- Steve

Ninsaneja
15-07-2007, 16:03
No.

Seriously, is it a huge problem or just that they seem to be moving to far that is bothering you?

Lord Steven
15-07-2007, 16:53
There is a rule that says no model can move more than what is listed on its profile.

If the normal movement distance does not bring the models to within 2 inches of the building edge then I would claim that they have no line of sight.

They would have to wait a turn, move forward again next turn until they can see and then shoot.

However, I'd seek clarification - my gaming group tends to err on the side of caution with terrain and we only use pieces which aren't prone to dispute. Therefore I haven't read the rules for buildings in a while.

ZomboCom
15-07-2007, 17:56
However, I'd seek clarification - my gaming group tends to err on the side of caution with terrain and we only use pieces which aren't prone to dispute. Therefore I haven't read the rules for buildings in a while.

If you reread the building rules you'll see that the unit's "footprint" becomes the same size as the entire building as soon as they enter it.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with entering a building a firing a move and fire weapon.

Greyfire
15-07-2007, 18:32
Seriously, is it a huge problem or just that they seem to be moving to far that is bothering you?

Not a huge problem just a question of is it legal.

My worst case scenario is for someone to put a 4"x8" or something larger building on the table and using that to extend their range. Like, say, moving my skinks six inches to a building (and thus entering it) and then shooting from the far side of the building, so they really can hit something that started the turn 26" away. Compared to their move'n'shooting range of 18" that extra 8" of range can be very effective. That is if it's legal. (I'll leave the fair play issue to a different discussion.)

The rules as I read them seem to allow it. I'm thinking that I must be missing something simple that prevents someone from abusing the building rules. That's all.

-=- Steve

Slayhem
15-07-2007, 18:43
FWIW:

According to BRB p12 "Movement rate" units may only move further than their Movement characteristic if charging, marching, pursuing or fleeing.

The rules on p97 don't say that moving into a building is an exception to this.

DeathlessDraich
15-07-2007, 18:50
My worst case scenario is for someone to put a 4"x8" or something larger building on the table and using that to extend their range. Like, say, moving my skinks six inches to a building (and thus entering it) and then shooting from the far side of the building, so they really can hit something that started the turn 26" away. Compared to their move'n'shooting range of 18" that extra 8" of range can be very effective. That is if it's legal. (I'll leave the fair play issue to a different discussion.)


It is legal and is being used quite frequently.



According to BRB p12 "Movement rate" units may only move further than their Movement characteristic if charging, marching, pursuing or fleeing.
The rules on p97 don't say that moving into a building is an exception to this.

True, movement *into* a building carries all the usual movement restrictions.
However there are no rules restrictions for movement *within* a building.
In fact, the rules seem to indicate that movement within a building is free.

This creates
a) an advantage for shooters in extending their move and shoot range

but it is compensated by

b) The disadvantage of shortening the distance for possible enemy charges.

Slayhem
15-07-2007, 18:54
However there are no rules restrictions for movement *within* a building.
What is the source?

alextroy
15-07-2007, 19:13
No source is needed, since there is no movement within a building. Your either inside the building, or your not. If you are inside the building, you measure the range for attacks from the closest point of the building to the target.

Slayhem
15-07-2007, 19:20
The point is: there is nothing in the rules that I see that makes it possible for a unit to move further than normal just because it enters a building.

Urgat
15-07-2007, 19:28
The rule is that there's no movement within the building: basically, the building IS the unit. A sorcerer could cast a spell at one unit on a side, then another spell on the other side, actually increasing its range. Movement stats are irrelevant, since there is no movement to begin with.

alextroy
15-07-2007, 19:29
True, Slayhem, but your point is meaningless. Otherwise, units in building would either have to be in a specific part of the building, or would not be able to enter a building unless it had enough move to reach the farest point of the building. Neither is true.

Instead the rules clearly state that a unit in a building measures all ranges from the closest point of the building to the relevant item in question. This counts for shooting, magic, Panic Test, uses of General's leadership, Terror, and anything else you can think of that requires you to measure range. It is a two-edged sword that can just as easily turn against you as be useful to you.

Heck, a unit in a building can at times suffer much worse just for being inside a buildling. Remember that all template attacks that hit the building automatically do D6 hits to the unit in the building. That means your unit of 10 archers which are normally in a line might suffer 6 hits from a Cannon that would normally only hit one model!

Slayhem
15-07-2007, 19:35
A unit (M4) that begins its move 3 inches in front of a building (4''x4'') moves into contact and enters it in the same movement phase. Since its footprint is now the building it has moved 7 inches. This violates the movement rules on p12, since moving into/in a building is not one of the listed exceptions and nothing about an exception is mentioned in the buildings rules on p97.

Where do the rules allow the "bonus" move?

Slayhem
15-07-2007, 19:36
True, Slayhem, but your point is meaningless. would not be able to enter a building unless it had enough move to reach the farest point of the building. Neither is true.
How is this not true? Rules?

ZomboCom
15-07-2007, 19:52
It's not a bonus move. Once it has entered the building the unit is no longer following the normal movement rules. You can place a single model in a building (e.g. a wraith), and they will count the entire size of the building as their base size.

Therefore a wraith in a building wil cause terror in a range of 6" from every point in the building.

The wraith doesn't get a "bonus move", it just counts as occupying the whole building.

It's all spelled out in the building rules.

Slayhem
15-07-2007, 20:00
I understand perfectly the concept of the unit filling the building. That's not the question.

The question is where in the building rules (or in other relevant rules text) it says that movement restrictions from p12 do not apply to buildings. I don't see it.

Urgat
15-07-2007, 20:39
Well, if you didn't ignore me, you would have read that there is no movement in buildings. So movement restrictions do not apply. Go check the building rules again: once you're in a building there is no movement, you're just in there, period. Even if you put one lone archer with longbow in one 36*36 building, he doesn't have to move to shoot on either side of the building. That's the rules, they're pretty clear. The moment your unit connects to the building, the unit becomes the building, no movement, nothing. If you have buildings that span from your deployment zone to the other player's zone and allow him to ******* shoot at you from your own side in his first turn, well, too bad for you.
The only thing you can do about it is doing the same.

Slayhem
15-07-2007, 20:56
Who's ignoring?

Anyway, for the matter at hand see my previous posts. I have yet to see your position supported by rules text.

EvC
15-07-2007, 21:27
The model does not -move- to each and every part of the building, instead you treat it at that point as essentially having a base the size of the building. So if you move 4" to get into a building that is 6" long, then you've still only moved 4" to get into it. And obviously as there is no movement within a building, the question of movement restrictions applying is redundant, and has about as much relevance as asking whether chicken chow mein exceptions apply.

One fun thing this thread has made me realise: put a magic item onto a character that does damage to everything in base contact and then have it charge an occupied building... it'd now count as being in base to base contact with everyone in the building, hahaha.

Festus
15-07-2007, 22:18
Wow, Slayhem, you are making a - well, something - out of you ... :(

EvC, Zombo, Urgat and the others have spelled it out more often than it is necessary now: There is NO MOVEMENT in buildings, hence no *bonus* move or anything.

All is the rules, and all is clear. You see, WHFB works with a few abstractions, to make things playable. You have just found one of those. Congratulations! :rolleyes:

Festus

Urgat
15-07-2007, 23:03
Who's ignoring?

Anyway, for the matter at hand see my previous posts. I have yet to see your position supported by rules text.

Yes I know, that's what you keep saying, and I keep repeating that the rules you're asking for are irrelevant and what you need to know is in the building rules, clear as water, so have it your way, why should I quote something that you can read by yourself?
I'm done here.

EvC: lol, you're right, never thought of that :D

Atrahasis
16-07-2007, 01:42
One fun thing this thread has made me realise: put a magic item onto a character that does damage to everything in base contact and then have it charge an occupied building... it'd now count as being in base to base contact with everyone in the building, hahaha.

Page 98, last paragraph. Sorry to burst your bubble :)

Greyfire
16-07-2007, 02:03
Alright, thanks everyone! That's good enough for me. I'm not missing a rule. The unit moves into the building. The building becomes the unit for anything important. My units in front of the building get shot to pieces. My panic checks rolls double-sixes. I... er, never mind those last two points. :p

I'm not a big fan of the new kill zone in the center of the board, but I really love buildings becoming more useful. The old punch-out two-story stone towers from fifth edition have started to get a lot of use.

I'll keep that tip about a wraith to myself, ZomboCom. That just helps me realize that we aren't quite using buildings as much as we could. Which probably is to my empire armies advantage. :)

But, EvC, I'm not sure about the item thing: "For special attacks and items that affects models in base contact... assumed to be in base contact with one enemy model" (page 98, last paragraph right side). Seems like fighting in the building can take a character model from being base-to-base with three enemy models down to only one. That'll have to be added to the list of disadvantages, but on the advantage side, you get to chose which enemy model you are base-to-base with. More stuff to keep in mind.

Again, thanks all for helping me out.

-=- Steve

shartmatau
16-07-2007, 02:05
just so you all remember. The advantages of a building while great are somewhat limited by only being able to use five models per floor of the building. So if your unit of 10 skinks jumps in a 1 story house then yes you get added range but only five of them will be able to shoot.
That said, buildings are excellent. I wish they had more rules for using them, as the usage now is not often. I would love to play a game in a small town or fortress that uses multiple buildings, but most people don't want to play that because it vastly changes the game.

Palatine Katinka
16-07-2007, 02:06
Hand-in-hand with this is the idea that you set the same piece of scenery half-in and half-out of your deployment zone. Then during deployment you put a unit of troops with move-or-fire weapons into it. Now at game start when the unit goes to shoot the building is used as the starting point for measuring the shot. So there's a bit of extra movement there that doesn't prevent the shooting. Any rule (other than agreeing you can't deploy into buildings) to prevent this?

Thanks for your help.

-=- Steve

This seems to have been over-looked by the others but here's my take on deploying in buildings:
Unit in building counts as filling the whole area of the building therefore building must be entirely in your deployment zone for you to deploy in it. If the building is not wholly within your deployment zone then any unit within it is not within your deployment zone.
Does that make sense to everyone or have I missed something?

Slayhem
16-07-2007, 02:15
There is NO MOVEMENT in buildings, hence no *bonus* move or anything.
The latter does not follow from the former. Really, it's not that difficult to grasp.

I can only repeat what I have said earlier in the thread. Which would be pointless.

Greyfire
16-07-2007, 02:25
Unit in building counts as filling the whole area of the building therefore building must be entirely in your deployment zone for you to deploy in it. If the building is not wholly within your deployment zone then any unit within it is not within your deployment zone.

You know ,that's always gotten past me. I think you're right there, otherwise the unit's footprint is way out of the deployment zone. And that nicely handles the little problem I was having. Thanks for mentioning that!

-=- Steve

Ninsaneja
16-07-2007, 03:35
The latter does not follow from the former. Really, it's not that difficult to grasp.

I can only repeat what I have said earlier in the thread. Which would be pointless.

What don't you get? Effectively, moving into a building turns you into that building. You stop upon reaching the building and then you are the building. There is no movement needed to get anywhere in the building as any models in the building count as being the building itself.

ZomboCom
16-07-2007, 04:53
You know ,that's always gotten past me. I think you're right there, otherwise the unit's footprint is way out of the deployment zone. And that nicely handles the little problem I was having. Thanks for mentioning that!

-=- Steve

You cannot deploy inside a building at all. The only way to enter a building is to move into it.

Greyfire
16-07-2007, 05:28
You cannot deploy inside a building at all. The only way to enter a building is to move into it.

Do you know where the rule is that prevents it?. I'm not saying your wrong, but it's never been clear to us. It usually ends up in the old debate of "it doesn't say you can, so you can't" vs "it doesn't say you can't, so you can". I'm just missing it.

Being friendly chaps we've always allowed it. But if that's incorrect we'll be glad to change things. We just can't find anything that prevents it (and on the other side, anything that allows it either). To us it's no different than deploying into woods. And our best example to follow is the scouts deploying in or behind ("in" in this case") a building somewhere on the table.

But this could be another case of where I'm missing something that's obvious. :)

-=- Steve

Slayhem
16-07-2007, 07:35
What don't you get? Effectively, moving into a building turns you into that building. You stop upon reaching the building and then you are the building. There is no movement needed to get anywhere in the building as any models in the building count as being the building itself.
I understand the concept. Don't worry. The point is what do the rules actually say? In my example above, how do you explain to your opponent that the rules support your unit moving 7 inches without marching? And if you doubt that it has moved 7 inches just physically measure the distance (as your opponent might conceivably point out to you...).

Just because it's "all or nothing" (when moving into buildings) doesn't automatically mean that "all equals nothing". Show me the rule, 'sall I'm saying.

Masque
16-07-2007, 07:48
You cannot deploy inside a building at all. The only way to enter a building is to move into it.

This is completely wrong. Deploying inside a building is specifically allowed by the 7th Edition FAQ as are other special ways of entering a building. Examples given are Skitterleap and Invocation of Nehek.

Ward.
16-07-2007, 08:57
@Slayhem: In theory (pretty solid RAW theory) you don't count it as moving, you just expand the base size. It says in the building rules that you shoot from the buildings edge. =This only applies if your trying to ask how the units inside could get from one end of the building to the other, or how the rest of the unit got inside the building as well. And festus already clarified that.

Slayhem
16-07-2007, 09:26
I am talking about the unit entering the building so that it goes from being outside the building to taking up the footprint of the building. The unit has physically moved, not just expanded. I am very open to the possibility that there is a rule that makes this movement free. But I would like to see the rule.

EvC
16-07-2007, 10:11
We can't check where individual models are unless we remove the house, but then they won't be in the house... ah, quantum physics reaches the Warhammer World!

Hey, if you want to see a messed-up part of movement with buildings, when a unit leaves the building, you place its rear rank down against the building then you can move (mostly) normally. How about abusing this to put down a Nigh Goblin conga line and releasing Fanatics...

Ward.
16-07-2007, 10:19
Where is the movement? To move you have to go somewhere else, the unit is still in the same place, just another place the same time. :)

Edit: @evc: You don't play magic the gathering by any chance do you? ;)

DeathlessDraich
16-07-2007, 10:44
Unit in building counts as filling the whole area of the building therefore building must be entirely in your deployment zone for you to deploy in it. If the building is not wholly within your deployment zone then any unit within it is not within your deployment zone.
Does that make sense to everyone or have I missed something?

This was discussed in a previous thread. Your method is probably the easiest to implement. More below*


You cannot deploy inside a building at all. The only way to enter a building is to move into it.

True - units can only move into buildings, but the rules for deployment do not
mention buildings. *


This is completely wrong. Deploying inside a building is specifically allowed by the 7th Edition FAQ as are other special ways of entering a building. Examples given are Skitterleap and Invocation of Nehek.

Invocation of Nehek - summoning a unit in a building. Interesting - never seen that being done yet.

The FAQ as usual has not carefully considered all the different permutations to this question

1) Both the Invocation and Skitterleap fails for a building if it is occupied by the enemy or in some cases a friendly unit.
Opposing units can only occupy the same building through an assault on the building.
A normal Skitterleap (discounting SOC) cannot be done into a building occupied by the enemy since this constitues charging. It can be used by a character to join a unit, unless it brings the US to more than 30.
The Invocation always fails for an occupied building because it can only be occupied by 1 unit

I'm not sure a Skaven player would skitterleap an assassin into a building since: a) the assassin cannot charge out of the building b) the assassin is 'more exposed' to magic especially.

* 1) The main restriction of deployment is that opposing units must be separated by at least 24".

2) If the whole building is outside the 24" no man's land zone, there is no problem. I can't find a rule that prevents deployment in a building in this case.

3) If part of the building is within no man's land, then the appropriate method, by the rules, would be a discussion between players:
pg 16 "players should discuss before the battle begins, which terrain features will be difficult etc"

Extending that discussion to include how deployement is affected by buildings seems reasonable.


Show me the rule, 'sall I'm saying.
"In almost all respects, it is best to think of the unit now occupying the space that is represented by the building model".

"*All* distances relevant to the unit are measured to and from the building itself"

*All distances* must include any movement distances of models and the above statement indicates that models moving in a building are actually moving 'within the unit space'.
This type of 'movement' is *not* 'Warhammer movement' (except changing the command group's position etc which is redundant in a building) and requires no movement allowance.

Urgat
16-07-2007, 11:08
This seems to have been over-looked by the others but here's my take on deploying in buildings:
Unit in building counts as filling the whole area of the building therefore building must be entirely in your deployment zone for you to deploy in it. If the building is not wholly within your deployment zone then any unit within it is not within your deployment zone.
Does that make sense to everyone or have I missed something?

Well yeah: you must deploy in the deployement zone. As a unit that enters into a building basically becomes the building, you can consider the other way around true, I suppose: that building is now your unit. That unit is partly outside the deployement zone -> illegal. Well that's my take on it, at least.

shartmatau
16-07-2007, 14:16
about the movement issue. There is no need to assume that a unit moving into a building gets extra movement.
Example. a unit of archers moves into a building. They don't need to move any farther than touching the building and they are considered to be in it.
After that it doesn't matter how far into the building they moved, the rules tell us that for all measurement purposes to use the building edge. They don't get extra movement, they are assumed to occupy the whole of the building.

ZomboCom
16-07-2007, 17:49
Apologies, I was wrong about deploying in buildings. My bad.

Captain Brown
16-07-2007, 18:17
Well it is obvious that some people cannot agree. The thread is closed as the answers have been provided.

Please do not double post (use the multiquote button instead - select the first quote in multiquote and then quote for the second and you will have both quotes saved to start your reply) it is against the WarSeer Rules.

Captain Brown
WarSeer Inquisition