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chupathingy89
19-08-2005, 17:19
I've recently started a wood elf army as my first fantasy army. Having never played fantasy before i was wondering if in my glade guard units standards were worth it. At 12 pts is it worht it for a unit whose soul purpose is archery to get +1 to combat resolution. With a Ws of 4 and a Strenght of 3 is there anything that they will end up being charged by that they can barely beat with the aid of a standard. For the same pts i can take another bow to kill the guys as the get close. Just wondering?

Tobias
19-08-2005, 17:34
no not never ever it's a 100vp bonus if the enemy persues

LordPomposity
19-08-2005, 18:35
Aiiieee! NO! NEVER! BAD DOG!

But seriously, there's very rarely a good reason to give a standard to archers. Aside from that you'd be handing out free victory points, you could get another archer or a champion and musician for the same price.

DocFool
19-08-2005, 18:56
I always put a standard with my thunderers and crossbowdwarves. I typically use them as second-string melee units, and like the look of them besides.

Zeb
19-08-2005, 19:04
But they are T4 with armour...

But never flags in archers, and almost never in Glade Riders...!

samw
20-08-2005, 21:13
In big dwarven groups of missile troops (16+) or bretonnian peasants (whose standards do not award victory points). Maybe-maybe to DE RXBmen, if you also give them shields for a more flexible unit. Otherwise, big no-no.

Avian
20-08-2005, 21:18
If missile units are equipped to fight (ie. they have light armour AND shield), then give them standards. If they are not equipped to fight, what the heck do you want a standard for?

Apart from that, one good rule of thumb I tend to follow is to take standard bearers in units worth 200 pts or more.

Scythe
21-08-2005, 09:49
I use them in my DE crossbowelf units. But, like said, they have shields and light armour, so benefit from a nice 4+ save in combat as well. And they come in large units in my case, which I reform into a fighting formation once the enemy gets close. But, like Avain said, standards aren't worth it in units without armour or decent toughness. In that case, it's just giving away victorty points.

Timber_Wolf
21-08-2005, 09:54
in a tk list with units of 20+ skellies with bow a sandart and a champ is worth it.
place them on a hill or so in your defensive line (together with more archer, 2 catapults and some counter charge stuff), shoot as much as possible and on turn 4, when the enemy comes near, reform into a solid, fear causing block that donīt run away...

but in other armies...well...as mentioned above, dwarfs are good, armord and tough to take hth by themself, rxbow deīs, too and maybe, but only maybe if you want some funny stuff and use orc arrerboys, they can stand a fight, too

Scythe
21-08-2005, 10:17
True, TK skeletons have the huge advantage of not running away when charged, even tough they are one of the poorest close combat troops in the game. Like any skeleton block, they can really hold enemy charges long enough for a devastating flank attack. Imho, they are not so different from standard TK skeletons; they only lack the save and get a bow instead.

Timber_Wolf
21-08-2005, 10:38
yeah, quite true ^^

such huge archer units are only used in a true defensive tk army and then will normaly be your only infantery skellies.
they die quite fast, true, but hold p the enemy.
if you charge with some ushabti or a giant next turn, the standart will be uite nice, as all the really hard hitters (exept chariots) canīt have a standart, so youīll need the archerīs one.

to be true, iīve just used this army style about 4 times. it IS quite effective, against neary everything (espacially woodies and orcs), but is really boring to play, so acutally i play an offensive tk army now with just 2 units of 12 archers - without a standart :p

Cheesejoff
21-08-2005, 12:55
In dwarfs, yes, especially those uber Dogs of War crossbowmen (Same save as warriors, but with crossbows) but never in poncy elves.

Scythe
21-08-2005, 13:01
yeah, quite true ^^

such huge archer units are only used in a true defensive tk army and then will normaly be your only infantery skellies.
they die quite fast, true, but hold p the enemy.
if you charge with some ushabti or a giant next turn, the standart will be uite nice, as all the really hard hitters (exept chariots) canīt have a standart, so youīll need the archerīs one.

to be true, iīve just used this army style about 4 times. it IS quite effective, against neary everything (espacially woodies and orcs), but is really boring to play, so acutally i play an offensive tk army now with just 2 units of 12 archers - without a standart :p

Going a little of topic, but I always wondered how such pure defensive TK army would play; eg centered around a casket of souls, a skull catapult or 2 and a lot of archers, with a few counterattack units. Would be a nice change to my offensive VC (I'm a big undead fan, naturally).

Back on topic, that standard is quite handy on those DoW crossbowmen indeed. Isn't there a regiment of reknown that has 3+ armour saves due their pavises or something? I'm not sure if they have a standard, but it would make them an ideal defensive unit.

Crazy Harborc
22-08-2005, 00:40
Since it's a "new army" and I have one already..........I've had two battles to date. My Glade Guard units are 10 strong (4 units of them). Three have full command, one a Champ and a musician. In the first battle, those standards and musicians helped with CR. Today they didn't help.

Have several rosters. Have extra units so you can vary your roster/army if and when you wish.

Timber_Wolf
22-08-2005, 10:42
@ Scyte
yeah, theīs a unit with a 3+ save and xbow - braganzaīs besigers or so
they have a standart, you donīt have the option to buy it or not, as with every ror.
they look quite solid, but with 12 points each are quite expensive i think.

@ Crazy Harborc
against which armies did you play? in 10 guys stron units of unarmores elves it could be really problematically to field the flags, as they died too quick and you could buy another archer for the points (more or less ;) ), the champ and musican combo on the other hand should be quite good (and the unit looks better with a champ in them ^^)

Crazy Harborc
22-08-2005, 23:39
I fought 2500pts. both times. Empire was first(I won), I lost to the DEs. Well actually the game was called when the power went off throughout my neighborhood.

I've already decided to drop the standards in the shooters. I WILL keep the unit champs and likely the musicians. I may use warhawks tomorrow night, it's wack the Empire night again.

Scythe
23-08-2005, 09:04
Musicians are usally a must. They can't be lost, don't give extra vp's to the opponent, and are generally very cheap. However, the most important ability is the +1 Ld on rally tests the musician gives. Extremely handy for small units of archers who tend to be close to the table edge.

Crazy Harborc
23-08-2005, 18:12
I've had many a battle with musicians saving that "needing to ralley" small and or big unit, with that +1. It's been a tie breaker in CR a few time too.

Say wshen you all have scouts (or any Woodies) don't forget a woods closer to the center line or just over the 12 inch deployment line can be full of Woodies or scouts on your turn one and shooting wherever you need on your turn two. Forests can grow on hilltops too.

vcassano
23-08-2005, 18:37
As has been said many a time before me, Standards aren't a good competitive fixture in archer units due to the easy victory points that could be gained. Although they could make a difference in a combat it'd have to be versus a weak enemy as T3 and no armour Elves die very, very easily and on the odd occasion. The same could be said of the champion, though this would give away less victory points. The extra attack granted by the champion however would make no difference most of the time so that's a waste.

The musician however, is vital in my opinion. With the Wood Elves nature of fleeing the +1 to rally granted by the inspirational tunes of the musician could make a hell of a difference and for the cheap price it's a must-have feature in archer units.

On the other hand if you like your army to be aesthetically pleasing, unified perhaps, then a full command group in every possible unit would look more grand. But that's just a personal point...

Major Defense
24-08-2005, 10:09
My HE archers rarely ever take a musician - let alone a standard! Bad idea.

Crazy Harborc
25-08-2005, 01:03
In most of the armies I push, shooting unit champs have a higher than the rest of the unit BSs. In my book that hitting on one more number is worth the try and the few extra points paid.

Last night my grunt Woodie shooters went into HtH without standards and musicians. Only once would that standard have been enough to tie the results. I used the extra points saved to "convert" a unit into a scout unit. THAT was a good move. I had two scout units and Waywatchers to deploy last.

Scythe
25-08-2005, 09:13
The same could be said of the champion, though this would give away less victory points. The extra attack granted by the champion however would make no difference most of the time so that's a waste.


Lately most champions in ranged units seem to have +1BS insteand of +1A, for the reasonable pts value the musician also costs (instead of double that value as it used to be in some early dexes). 5-6 pts for a slightly better shot and the ability to sacrifice himself if that big nasty character of doom on monster arrives to protect the unit from being destroyed is nice enough.

Fiend
27-08-2005, 04:38
The only time that I would give Glade Guard a standard, is along with the Magic Standard (I don't have the book with me), but I believe it allows the unit to stand and shoot no matter how far away a charging unit starts.

And it's only 25 points.

Scythe
27-08-2005, 09:38
Even then... are those 10, maybe 20 shots really going to save your ass against most decent units?

Darmort
27-08-2005, 11:34
Times for Standard Bearers in Archery Units;
Never unless;
With Shields and Light Armour+ (Dark Elf Warriors with Shields and Repeater Crossbows, they're a secondary combat unit as well as fire support. Dwarf things as well).
You know they'll win combat or hold untill you can flank, such as; large unit of ranked up Asur Archers get charged, draw or lose combat (minor) and stay, then have some Silver Helms or something else to flank and then win combat and run down enemy unit.

In any other case, no. Unless you like loosing.

Note; Warning; that second one; I do NOT know if it works or not, I only heard the theory. Do not try except in friendly game.