PDA

View Full Version : Anti Skaven S.A.D tactica



fubukii
19-08-2005, 23:01
Being one of the mos abused and overpowered gaming lists out there i decided there should a thread showing the weakpoints of this army and ways to beat it.

First we will have to look at what the list packs normally.

3+ ratling guns (ouchy)
around 15+ Jezzails (more ouchy)
around 8-10 levels of magic meaningm ore str5 missle or other nasty skaven spells.

The visible flaws of the army are that they are generally weak in combat, and not normally very fast ( seeing as their ranged weapons are move or fire.)

in the thread i would like to discuss general tactics and things you have learned to use against this list to beat it more then not.

Ganymede
20-08-2005, 05:41
While not experienced at using a SAD army myself, here are a number of tips you guys could use for taking out this particular kind of army.

1. Take shooting/magic that ignores targetting restrictions. Weapon teams and skulking warlocks are easily felled by spells such as Burning Head, Stone Master, Vermintide, and Forked Lightning. They are also easily felled with a cannonball. Stone throwers are also nice, because even if they scatter away from a large clanrat unit, they can still scatter on one of the nearby support guns.

2. Take items/abilities which can cause panic tests. Items such as the Rod of Flaming Death or Starfire Arrows are great at eliminating large units of jezzails. In fact, any form of panic test on a jezzail unit will most likely rout it. They are leadership 5 normally, and they can only ever aspire to have a leadership of 7 near a warlord general.

3. Take a frenzied unit or two. Units like witch elves, plague monks, savage orcs, and such are great for combatting skaven hordes. These units don't have to worry about panic tests and are often hitty enough to win combat without a full compliment of ranks.

4. Take mage hunters. Cheap mounted heros, tomb scorpions, flayerkin, and such are all great at charging into a ranked unit, summarily butchering a warlock, then running away. By far an even trade.

5. Provide many targets at once. If there is one thing a skaven player loves, it is when his opponent provides threats one at a time. If you dwadle with your movement, he will target each unit as it comes into range with the full force of his shooting. What you need to do is to either provide multiple targets or no targets. If you keep multiple units in range of his shooting, he will be tempted to split his fire.

LordPomposity
20-08-2005, 11:37
SAD generals often take minimum-sized, units with no upgrades so they can squeeze in more guns. Handguns and even arrows can fell T3, unarmoured toops quickly, and if you can wipe out a Clanrat unit in one shooting phase you can most likely panic everything near it. Skaven shooting is meant to take out elite units, and becomes horrendously innefficient against lines of basic handgunners and archers of other armies.

Lady's Champion
20-08-2005, 12:12
I don't want to intentionally look stupid but I don't know what S.A.D. is and I've always wanted to know

I've always wanted it to be Shooty Army of Death, but it's not, right?

Cheesejoff
20-08-2005, 12:33
Skyre Army of Doom, but Shooty Army of Death was close enough :p

You didn't mention Warp Lightning cannons, remember if they are charged they HAVE to fly so charge at an angle that will send it into the rest of the skaven horde just to annoy them, block LOS, maybe cause panick tests, etc.

LordPomposity
20-08-2005, 12:40
Regarding the Warp lightning cannon, if someone has the brazen balls to field the Skryre Army of Doom, then you should have no compuctions whatsoever about declaring a hopelessly and obviously out of range charge against it.

Was there ever an errata banning that?

Scythe
20-08-2005, 13:47
You could always play the evenly broken HE sea guard list and kill all those weapon teams before the game has even started...

Cheesejoff
20-08-2005, 15:05
Regarding the Warp lightning cannon, if someone has the brazen balls to field the Skryre Army of Doom, then you should have no compuctions whatsoever about declaring a hopelessly and obviously out of range charge against it.

Was there ever an errata banning that?

No, but in the rule book in the rules commentary, it says you shouldn't do that (But you shouldn't play SAD anyway, so fair's fair...)

Neknoh
20-08-2005, 15:16
but what about Flyers in the second turn? Whou can tell if they are out of charge range? :evilgrin:

As for stopping up those weaponteams, well... I have found Luxurius Torment to be a very nice spell..

"Hmm.... I have Delicius Excrutiation, 2 Enrapturing Spasms, 2 Titillating Dellusions, a hadfull of Blissfull Throes and then Luxorius Torment"

¤Skaven player doing a quick calculation of his Power Dice and Dispell Scrolls¤

"My three Blissfull Throes are within range of your small unit that your general is hiding in... they do D6 strength 6 hits you know"

¤Skaven player sorting his dispell dice into one big pool¤

"And I have Titillating dellusions ready to cast on your Grey Seer"

"... What does it do?"

"Mark a spot, then move"

¤Skaven Player sorting Dispell Scrolls into a pile¤

"Now, I start with Luxurius Torment on that weapon team near my Wariors"

"Neeeheheee!!! Think I will fall for that stupid man, man thing! I let it pass so that I, I! Can dispell your Illusions and Throes!"

"ok, now, your turn, the Ratling Gun takes D6 strength 6 hits... oh my, it survived, oh well, now, measure for frenzy, oh, it seems as if you can charge my Wariors :skull: "

Ganymede
20-08-2005, 15:25
"Neeeheheee!!! Think I will fall for that stupid man, man thing! I let it pass so that I, I! Can dispell your Illusions and Throes!"

"ok, now, your turn, the Ratling Gun takes D6 strength 6 hits... oh my, it survived, oh well, now, measure for frenzy, oh, it seems as if you can charge my Wariors :skull: "

Weapon teams may never charge another unit, even if frenzied. This rule is in the Weapon Team's "Attached" special rule.

The only benefit of frenzying weapon teams is that frenzied units can only ever hold. What's that mean? It means a frenzied ratling gun can't stand and shoot.

Screamin Daemon
20-08-2005, 17:15
Regarding the charged warp lightning cannons: there was an errata done on it, but not on the cannon itself. The errata was for the main rule book. The new rule goes something along these lines: "you cannot make, or declare a charge that is plainly and obviously out of range".

Nazguire
21-08-2005, 06:38
Regarding the charged warp lightning cannons: there was an errata done on it, but not on the cannon itself. The errata was for the main rule book. The new rule goes something along these lines: "you cannot make, or declare a charge that is plainly and obviously out of range".


Damn...oh well its not illegal unless you are caught.

As someone previously posted. If you have the brazen balls of a monkey god of Hindu to field the S.A.D you have the right to. :p

Kerill
21-08-2005, 10:21
No it doesnt make it right, I think the SAD is a good thing, it means other hyper elite uber armies will get trashed but balanced armies with lots of core can do quite well.

Xenageo
21-08-2005, 10:41
Damn...oh well its not illegal unless you are caught.

As someone previously posted. If you have the brazen balls of a monkey god of Hindu to field the S.A.D you have the right to. :p

Cheating is never justifiable, no matter what list your opponent fields.

skavenguy13
21-08-2005, 11:30
Cheating is never justifiable, no matter what list your opponent fields.
Agreed.

As for tactics... it's mostly about the list you'll make and luck. Put as most flyers/skirmishers/scouts as you can. For example, 3 units of 5 fell bats would be very good. They are enough to be sure at least 1 unit will survive long enough to charge. And I doubt the jezzails can wound them in combat, so you need 2 wounds to win most of the time. Skirmishers and flyers are especially fast and hard to shoot and you can often take multiple small units, so they're pretty good when it comes to taking out several shooting units/cannons. For the weapon teams, I (being a non-SAD skaven player) really hate the heavens spells. 99% of the time, your mages will be at less than 24" from a weapon team or two, so a small D6 S4 hit will easily take care of weapon teams.

If you didn't know you were going to face a SAD army and didn't take a lot of skirmishers/flyers, then it's mostly about luck. If the jezzails hit often, you don't have much chance to win. However, if they don't hit a lot, most armies will have enough troops remaining to kill the HTH units, which is still a big part of the army.

LordPomposity
22-08-2005, 01:39
For the record, I only advocated such a cheap tactic because I thought that, like the SAD army, it was exactly that: a cheap tactic. Now that I know it's explicitly illegal, I wouldn't try to pull it off.

Cpt. Drill
22-08-2005, 03:32
If your going to cheat then go all the way..... and be like... there is a new FAQ on the net.. it allows all of my *insert race here* to move shoot and charge and cast magic in every phase... also i get three turns for every half of yours! so you get a movement and magic phase then i get to have three turns!

BEST FAQ EVER you might agree?

But cheating is moral and spiritually wrong ond you will be condemming your self to hell!

Zanusiekk
22-08-2005, 11:30
I have found that most DE magic seems almost tailor made to kill horrendous amounts of rat-creatures... You should try it...

Sinew
22-08-2005, 13:17
From an Orcs and Goblins point of view I reckon magic is your biggest asset against SAD skaven. Both the Big Waaagh (Foot/Warpath), and the Little Waaagh (Edbutt) have spells that can ignore targetting restrictions and thus splat the war teams and Warlock Engineers. Also the Itty Ring can guarantee one Edbutt, and Sizzlas Shiny Baubles is quite a laugh if their engineers are hanging about outside units because you can reflect their D6 S5 hits right back at the offending warlock.
Other than that it's probably best to get quite a few warm bodies behind you to avoid getting completely surrounded. That's my advice.

Tormentor of Slaanesh
24-08-2005, 10:40
have a scouting unit. it marches up and stands, gets killed but two magic and shooting phases by which time the rest of your army is close enough to charge. panic a unit, its skaven they'll run, jezzails have no rank bonus.

Major Boothroid
24-08-2005, 10:54
Id imagin that life magic is quite good against them as well as all the offensive spells ignore target restrictions. Master of the wood should also stop any jezails hiding from flyers in forests.

whats the best way to weather their magic phases. Id assume all the offensive spells are cast at the units that are threatening to kill their wizards/warmachines, but can say from experiance as Iv never had the "joy" of faceing on of these armys.