PDA

View Full Version : IA runway length?



Still learning
21-07-2007, 11:21
I'm trying to make a runway for my planes that will arrive.

How long in your opinon should the runway be? (cms)

Do thunderbolt and lightenings land the conventional way?

Charax
21-07-2007, 11:25
I would make it the same length as the Straight manoeuvre - seeing as that's the manoeuvre used to land, making a runway that length clearly marks out where you can start your manoeuvre and still end up on the runway.

fattdex
21-07-2007, 11:53
about 12 inches i reckon. it would look better.
tb's and lightnings can take off normally or vtol according to double eagle.

Still learning
22-07-2007, 00:44
T'Bs can take off vtol? wouldn't of thought so.

orangesm
22-07-2007, 02:03
Depends... Runways in the real world vary a lot in length.

If you want to have a large objective that is a high use, well built airfield 24" with another that is 12" perpendicular to it possibly with even another one at 45 degs to those two creating a triangle. Possibly two set of parallel runways at 24".

Another option is to have a rapid deployed, expeditionary runway that is just 12" long and looks like a dirt strip.

Still learning
22-07-2007, 04:52
Because i'm building an Island map (its a flip board, 1 side island e.g flat water, the other side desert) , I was simply thinking an Island with a runway. But 12'' I think is a long way for what I wanted to be a small island.

chaos0xomega
22-07-2007, 04:57
Then the island can't house a runway. It's that simple!

orangesm
22-07-2007, 05:10
That was actually an important strategic concern during the US Pacific island hoping campaign during WWII. The US would ignore Islands that could not have airfields built on them and specifically went after islands that could have very large runways built - for the Bomber formations.

kris.sherriff
22-07-2007, 10:45
You could make it smaller for astetic reasons and have it as the size it would be from a higher altitude. Do it to scale with epic ground forces rather than the FW AI stuff.

Darnok
22-07-2007, 10:57
T'Bs can take off vtol? wouldn't of thought so.

It's stated multiple times in "Double Eagle" that they can. Gives you a nice reason to buy those FW landing pads. ;)

Still learning
22-07-2007, 12:02
I'm thinking I can get away with it being 8''. Think about aircraft carriers and thier length.

At 8'' I don't think taking off would be a problem, its landing that would a risky business for rookie pilots.

fattdex
22-07-2007, 12:49
I think i remember that marauders had vector engines too, but i'm only part through the book can't remember. but a runway would be servicable for emergency landings too, i think a 12 inch dirt strip on an island would look good.
I'm drafting my bro in law to build an island airfield, with a 12" tarmac strip (with sequentially flashing LED lights adn rotating radar dish no less ;-) )

orangesm
22-07-2007, 14:54
The Marauder does have a pair of small lift engines probably providing it STOL capability. 8" will probably still look good and who knows what technomagic the Imperium uses for its premier aircraft.

helloscientist
22-07-2007, 15:13
This might be a little too in depth and illustrate just how bored I am at the moment. Being a pilot, the aircraft from the 40k universe have always bothered me from the aerodynamic standpoint, but I guess anything can fly if you put enough thrust behind it. Anyway, yes Double Eagle does state that the Thunderbolts are capable of VTOL, which would eliminate the need for a runway. Also the aircraft is equipped with landing feet, not wheels. So it doesn't seem practical to use a "rolling takeoff" as repairs would have to be made after every mission to the landing gear system. This doesn't mean that there is no need for a runway in the 41st millennium. It could be possible for the runway to be used as a clearway, which basically is a cleared stretch of ground that an aircraft can accelerate through to a safer airspeed. I would imagine the aircraft would be towed out to the end of the runway, then engage its VTOL system to hover just about ground level and then engage its main engine system to accelerate straight ahead. This would probably be used for longer ranged missions requiring maximum fuel and weapons loads. It could also be a means for reducing stress on the engines, as it is easier to make a fixed wing aircraft fly forward than to make it hover. A runway could also be used for flow control, it would be safer and easier for the Air Traffic Controllers to manage the aircraft inbound and outbound if they were flying to and from a single strip of land rather then it would be if they were flying to their individual landing pads. And finally as was already stated an emergency landing strip. This is probably the most logical of the uses as a pilot is generally expensive to train and most militaries aren't too keen on giving up a pilot to the POW camps. Also if there is a cleared out strip it could be possible to save the aircraft from complete destruction. All that being said a Learjet 31A requires about 5000ft of runway for takeoff on a 90 degree F day at sea level at a max takeoff gross weight of 17,000lbs. Each engine on the Learjet produces 3,500lbs of thrust, which is not nearly enough for a combat aircraft. In Imperial Armor 1 the Thunderbolt is said to have afterburning turbofans and weigh about 28,000lbs empty. Which makes it comparable to a F-15. The F-15 weighs about 31,000lbs empty and the E/F models have an 81,000lbs max takeoff weight and is said to require about 4000ft of runway for takeoff. The F-15 is also equipped with 2 afterburning turbofans which produce about 17,000lbs of thrust normally and about 29,000lbs while afterburning. That all being said I would think it safe to assume that if the Thunderbolt was going to use a runway it would need about 4000ft with a full combat load. But remember a runway isn't built for one type of aircraft, and needs to be able to support various weights and sizes. The Lightning would probably require slightly less, and the Marauders would require more runway. For the modeling aspect I would personally make the runway longer maybe 15" to 20" inches, which if my math is correct is still a really short runway, about 1000ft long. Most modern "Executive" airports have a 6000ft runway and can land various size business jet class aircraft, which means a 120" runway would be required. The only way I would make the runway that big would be for an airbase scenario, anything else I would make to scale or appear is you are looking at it from altitude. Well, I hope this helps a little and isn't too confusing. I'm not saying NO YOU CAN'T PUT A RUNWAY ON A SMALL ISLAND! I'm just trying to hand out a little insight. Remember its the 40K universe so anything is possible, so go ahead and go for it, but be sure to post some pics.

Thanks

Still learning
23-07-2007, 07:45
wow thanks for that insight, although I highly doubt its possible nor practical to have a runway 120'' long, certain in my case on an Island.

Btw welcome to the foums, did you sign up just to post that? (i feel somwhat special now :))

fattdex
23-07-2007, 09:58
I was at the Melbourne airshow about 2 years ago- seeing a Hercules (i think it was) do an emergency short landing is quite amazing :S such a huge plane coming down on a huge angle and stopping on a dime. Likewise with fighters doing short take-offs. So these type of things are possible with military aircraft now, and obviously in the future. if it was shorter than 12", make it look like a well exercised dirt strip ;-) because not all aircraft in the 40k univers are just what is inside the game, too.

orangesm
23-07-2007, 11:29
The Herc is quiet capable of doing a short field landing unassisted (it can even land on a carrier!) However, fighters unless they are equiped to VTOL/STOL, land on carriers using cables or some other similar device, need long runways to land do to the velocity they have to maintain to stay in the air.

Still learning
23-07-2007, 12:00
I was at the Melbourne airshow about 2 years ago- seeing a Hercules (i think it was) do an emergency short landing is quite amazing :S such a huge plane coming down on a huge angle and stopping on a dime. Likewise with fighters doing short take-offs. So these type of things are possible with military aircraft now, and obviously in the future. if it was shorter than 12", make it look like a well exercised dirt strip ;-) because not all aircraft in the 40k univers are just what is inside the game, too.

Was there and saw the exact same plane land. I memory serves me right it was a creamy white colored herc right?
How cool was the wall of fire!, but my true fav was the f-16... wow!

fattdex
23-07-2007, 13:00
[forgive the OT] Yeah it must have been the same :) got a good photo somewhere of the f-16 pilot giving the thumbs up as he was taxiing at my cousin, who was standing on my shoulders at the time :)
There was some crazy stuff, but of all of the performances, it was watching the Virgin Blue planes land that filled me with the greatest sense of peril :S

Sai-Lauren
23-07-2007, 14:46
The Herc is quiet capable of doing a short field landing unassisted (it can even land on a carrier!)

Just try getting it to take off again though. ;)

To the OP, have you considered just doing a part of the island - having it go off the edge?

kris.sherriff
23-07-2007, 16:51
Just try getting it to take off again though. ;)

To the OP, have you considered just doing a part of the island - having it go off the edge?

Not a problem, the new K dont even need to turn round on the end of the runway just reverse and re trim the turbo props and off they go.
(Dam I hate planes):D

Puffin Magician
23-07-2007, 18:32
To the OP, have you considered just doing a part of the island - having it go off the edge?That's what I was thinking, I think the Concorde almost fell off of a runway like that.

About the V/STOL, Thunderbolts & other Naval aircraft might operate like the Harrier on lo-grav worlds or orbiting spaceships but not on 'standard' terrestrial planets. Imperial Armour v1 shows a Lightning positioned on an inclined ramp with text referring to them specifically for VSTO's. I figure larger aircraft like the Marauder might use ventral engines for Rocket-Assisted Takeoffs, enabling them to use much shorter runways Imperial way of course, like the YMC-130H or Fat Albert].

Unless I forgot how to convert Epic scales, even a mere 450m runway would be nearly 5' long... the Forrestal's deck would still be over 3.5'. Time to throw science out the window, I guess.

kombine
23-07-2007, 23:01
In the book "Double Eagle" it says that all the Imperial Vector thrust planes can VTOL (Lighting,Thunder Bolt), but a ramp launch is used when ever possible as it uses up less reaction mass (fuel).

After looking at the models how ever i can see where the vector Thrust nozels are, (I'm sure some one can point them out to me).

HarkonGreywolf
23-07-2007, 23:53
On the subject of runways the AI Rule Book has a picture of an Ork runway on an island on Page 173. (Bottom picture) That looks good enough to me, it is after all, only a representation of a runway, they are only toys and don't really use the distance to build speed for a real take-off! ;)

Looks to be about 12"-14" long judging by the short board edge, although perspective may be distorting that.

Hope that helps?

HG

Darnok
24-07-2007, 00:02
Don't forget: we talk about representations of models on the ground in a game playing in the air. If you want to keep everything in scale all the objectives should be tiny in comparison to everythig else. Given the AI models that would be... well, tiny.

So build whatever looks good and just go for it. And don't forget the pics. ;)

Still learning
24-07-2007, 08:50
Just try getting it to take off again though. ;)

To the OP, have you considered just doing a part of the island - having it go off the edge?

Yes, exatly what I was thinking about, having it go off the edge and have pillars holding it up, a little like a pier.

fattdex
24-07-2007, 09:25
And maybe some wreckage poking out of the water, if you can afford to cut up a plane!!

Sai-Lauren
27-07-2007, 14:17
Yes, exatly what I was thinking about, having it go off the edge and have pillars holding it up, a little like a pier.

Well, I actually meant off the side of the map, onto the rest of the island, but having it go out into the sea isn't a bad idea - I'm sure there's a few airports around the world like that (Hong Kong springs to mind for some reason).

The alternative could be to model some launch catapults and arrester wires on the map - it's a strategically important island, but there isn't enough room to have an airfield, so they made enough room.

Captain_Ardias
27-07-2007, 16:03
would make sense, from double eagle (don't have my book yet so thats all I can go on :() its sounding like all of the navy planes have vtol and the ability to quick launch, so some landing pads might be in order as well.

Mr Kibbles
07-08-2007, 09:32
Maruaders have VTOL and so do Lightnings because they both only have skids to land on.

Puffin Magician
07-08-2007, 21:09
Maruaders have VTOL and so do Lightnings because they both only have skids to land on.I think it's more that they have VTOL because a few books say they do. Snowmobiles have skids too! :p Besides, the skids are likely used as wheels anyway [ie: scraping against the runway, quite Imperialesque], otherwise how are any of these aircraft be moved around, unpowered, on airbases?

Looking at the underside of the Marauder, there's no way it has any VTOL capability. There's only 2 nozzels on the ventral side and they point outwards at angles [definitely not downwards], which looks more like RATO/STOL more than anything else. The Lightning has no ventral nozzels whatsoever. There's probably a reason the Valkyrie and Vulture look like they do [clearly VTOL vs. VTOL because we say so].

I like to think that physical models supercede some authors' opinion of "rule of cool".

Lt. Co Steel
29-08-2007, 12:41
i advise simply making the runway as long as the island, plus adding launch ramps and landing pads for conventionel use. The runway would only be needed for emmergencys as all craft have VTOL capabilitys (despite the bad pysics of the planes).