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itcamefromthedeep
22-07-2007, 14:01
Because they are not fast cavalry, you can take 24 of them with a mounted mortal BSB, coming to 265pts.

The BSB might take Nurgle maybe for the survivability and fear to help stop them from getting charged. I would default to Undivided to help with the inevitable Panic tests.

The unit will likely take lots of shooting casualties, granted. And hounds are not exactly spectacular in close combat, but what they WILL have is 3 ranks, outnumbering (US 50!) and a banner. All this on M7 models, so they have a lot of mobility and pursue 3D6. You could take them with a Giant so that the big guy absorbs the bulk of the missile fire, becuase Giants do that. If most of the Hounds die, then have the BSB jump ship to another unit and turn the hounds around to cliam your table quarter and preserve their points.


Any thoughts?

Neknoh
22-07-2007, 14:13
Undivided wouldn't do anything for the unit, since marks does NOT transfer to the unit itself. The unit in turn would be completely and utterly destroyed by anything it got into close combat with, T3 and no armoursave does hurt, and it hurts a lot when facing things with 4+ saves, you have to cause more wounds than the opposing unit.

It has been theorised and tried, but it won't work, the unit is far too bulky for it to work properly and the unit will get shot down, flanked and generally outfought by anything it gets into contact with.

The one thing that was doable was doable last edition, when you needed 4 for a rank, then, you could field 2 Exalted Champions of Nurgle or Chaos Undivided, juice them up with protective gear, give them a Hallberd and slap them in the front of the unit, accounting for a full rank, meaning that the enemy units would have to deal with the two exalted Champions. This was equal to running two Exalted Champions into the enemy with a further +4 CR for Outnumber and 3 ranks before any blows were struck.

itcamefromthedeep
22-07-2007, 16:14
The mark does not have to be transferred to the unit. The Champion get to reroll failed psychology tests, and there is nothing I can find in the Characters or Psychology sections of the rulebook to stop him from taking advantage of this. Please give a page reference to help me out here.

They can beat a unit of 25 Dwarf Warriors in close combat, all other things equal.They can beat units of Halberdiers and Swordsmen handily with the Aspiring Champion. The Champion also lets them hurt elves badly. They can beat most heavy cavalry if the hounds get the charge. They can beat Dryads. They can beat Treekin. And M7 means that they are one of only a few units that can have a static resolution of 5 and pursue 3D6.

The unit relies on the Champion to kill a model or two (perhaps in a challenge to minimize attacks back) and the WS4 of the hounds to minimize hits back.

It does a lot for 265pts.

Neknoh
22-07-2007, 16:15
The character does not test individually from the unit, thus, the mark is impossible to add to the character as MARKS DOES NOT TRANSFER to the unit

itcamefromthedeep
22-07-2007, 16:25
Immune to Psych is overruled by the unit, but Stupidity and Stubborn are transferred to the unit. Causing Fear is transferred to the unit for some purposes but not others. It is not at all clear that the character "does not test individually". I'm going to need a page reference for this one.

Neknoh
22-07-2007, 16:58
I'll go look then, but remember, Frenzy does not transfer to the unit, Stupidity does NOT transfer to the unit, only the movement of the inhibited character due to the character moving slower than the unit. Stubborn is not psychology related, nor is it mark related.

The Mark of a Character does not transfer to his unit, that is the best I can do at the moment, but I mean, by your thinking, of marks transfering, then a Khornate character would be ace to put in the unit, would it not?

A fear causing character ALTERS the units psychology, he does not grant the unit Fear.

Belerophon709
22-07-2007, 17:22
I agree with Neknoh. Take the example of a Lord of Nurgle joining a marauder unit of say 25 marauders. The value of these troops would suddenly multiply by 3 or 4 times if fear was transferred, since it would suddenly mean that any unit beaten by these chaps in CC would most likely be outnumbered by fear-causing enemies. Oh, and since the mark originates from the character and isn't per se given to the unit (mark of nurgle on units = fear, mark of nurgle on lord = fear AND +1 wound), it would also give every model in the unit +1 wound... ;)

So no, the mark doesn't transfer.

Lord_Squinty
22-07-2007, 17:35
yes the unit itself does not cause fear, but because a hero is there, then the overall unit will cause fear *based on US 1*

they also will not need to take fear tests in return.

Aflo
22-07-2007, 17:43
I would suspect marks do not transfer, for all the reasons stated above. Common sense would tell you that a character with the mark of Tzeentch would not allow his unit to generate an extra power dice - if this is the case for the mark of tzeentch, it will be the case for the others.

I've also thought about using my hounds in this way, although taking the character out of the unit, using multiple hound units and accompanying them with knights to do the killing. Sounds like a risky tactic though, using Ld 6 warhounds as a pinning unit :p

Regards
Aflo (Adam)

itcamefromthedeep
23-07-2007, 00:11
Of course marks don't transfer onto the unit (except for some aspects of Nurgle), and neither does the unit take the mark away from the character (except Slaanesh, and the ItP of Khorne). You are taking the psychology test on the character's leadership, so why not use his special rules?

Stubborn is psychology, that's why it's under the Psychology section (pg. 53)
"If a character subject to Stupidity fails this test while he is within a unit, the entire unit is affected by Stupidity" (pg. 78)

Neknoh
23-07-2007, 00:43
Still, with this logic of "testing on a characters leadership, why not use his rules?", the Mark of Slaanesh on an Exalted Champion would make a block of Marauders Immune to Psychology, so thatone doesn't work either.

Remember, the mark affects SOLELY the bearer(s), not a unit the Bearer joins, thus, the Warhounds, Marauders, Beastherds etc. tests WITHOUT getting to reroll their psychology

Deacon Bane
23-07-2007, 02:11
Just to play devil's advocate, the BRB does specify ItP is lost, it says nothing about the re-roll. Also the Khorne character does not lose frenzy by joining a non-frenzied unit. I don't think it's so much the mark affecting the unit as much as the Hero providing a commanding presence and keeping the unit in check.

itcamefromthedeep
23-07-2007, 03:46
I don't really mind being wrong on this one, I'd just like someone to prove it first.

Of the special Psychology rules, the mark of Chaos Undivided is most like Immune to Psychology, I agree there. By analogy then the character should lose it, but that is not explicitly stated in the Hordes of Chaos book as it should be. I do not, however, have access to the Beasts of Chaos book at the moment. Are there any clues there?

Lord Steven
23-07-2007, 08:49
120 points for 3 ranks, outnumber and movement 14 sounds good on paper.

No command, leadership 5 and the lack of maneuverability on a unit with 3 ranks would probably make it impractical. The WS4 is good but toughness 3 with no save makes them a liability.

For roughly the same points you can get a beast herd with movement 10, higher leadership, 360 degree line of sight and better in combat and less prone to being shot to death.

Festus
23-07-2007, 08:58
Hi

itcamefromthedeep - you actually are wrong and Neknoh is right:

Undivided lets the Character reroll Psy tests. But the Character will become a Member of the Unit in all respects as soon as he joins it. The unit may not reroll, as it has no Mark. All it can do is to use the Character's superior Ld value, and it even must do so.

The only exceptions, where Psychology transfers from one part to the others are given in the BRB: You can only do what the rules tell you to do...

BRB, p.78f. , HoC, p. 47.

sun tzu
23-07-2007, 10:14
Not easy this one:(
From the way i read it this would be how we would play it

If the unit of chaos hounds were joined by a hero with the MOCU then I would say the unit would not get the re-roll.

If the unit of chaos hounds were joined by a hero with the nurgle then any unit the unit charges would need a fear test and if the unit was charged the charging unit would need a fear test but you would not auto break for being beaten in combat by a fear causing enermy as the fear causing hero only has a unit strength of 2(mounted)

If the unit of chaos hounds were joined by a hero with the mark of Khorne then the unit would have to charge if they can as with the frenzy rules but the hounds themselves would not be frenzyed #note- the mount of a frenzyed charater is now frenzyed too- except chaos knights:wtf:#

If the unit of chaos hounds were joined by a hero with the mark of slaanesh the unit would still need to take Psychology tests but using the hero's LD.

I think:confused:

Just another case of GW messing up the basic rules

Festus
23-07-2007, 10:32
Hi

read p.78 of the BRB:

This happens, when a Marked Character joins an unmarked unit -

MoNurgle: Character causes Fear, unit is immune to fear itself - but it does not cause fear as a whole, just the Character himself causes fear.

MoKhorne: Unit is not frenzied, Character still is, and must charge out of the unit if able to AND the unit has not declared a charge itself. The unit may not choose not to pursue.

MoTzeentch: No Problem, just your usual Spellcaster.

MoSlaneesh: Unit is not ItP and Character loses ItP as long as he is joined.

MoUndivided: Unit has no Mark. As the Unit tests for Psy and not the Character, the MoU has no effect as long as the Character is in the unit.

Festus

sun tzu
23-07-2007, 13:12
My head is starting to hurt but i think you are right

itcamefromthedeep
23-07-2007, 14:58
Hiyo. You're probably right, here Festus, but if I ever run into someone who says differently, I will need something more substantial. I'm with you in spirit here, but I'm not at all convinced of the thickness of the ice.


Undivided lets the Character reroll Psy tests.

No, "The character, unit or chariot may reroll failed Psychology tests." Full stop, end of paragraph, end of rule. HoC, pg47. That's what the Mark of Chaos Undivided does, and a big reason why this discussion needs to happen. This is the part where I say "if the character is part of the unit, then a different part of the Undivided rule applies".


But the Character will become a Member of the Unit in all respects as soon as he joins it.

...ehhh, not so. If that were the case, the character would lose their Mark (along with any other special rules that apply to the character and not the unit). It's not so cut-and-dried, unfortunately. If you put a Wgiht Lord with a great weapon in a unit of Zombies, does the Unit have Killing Blow?


The only exceptions, where Psychology transfers from one part to the others are given in the BRB: You can only do what the rules tell you to do...

I'm not so sure of that. If there were a paragraph at the top of page 78 saying "special psychology rules that apply to a character are lost when he joins a unit, except as follows" then there would be no argument here. However, I do not see anything on page 78 that tells me that these are the only exceptions.

The character gets the ability, its a positive, it's there. The burden of proof now rests on the rules to show me why he doesn't.

Festus
23-07-2007, 15:12
Hi

I never said that special Psy rules are lost, did I (apart from the cases noted in the BRB)?

And the bit you quote from HoC - while not a misquote - is taken out of context: The character, the unit, and the chariot are the ones Marked (i.e. having a Mark - either Undivided, or Khoren, or Nurgle, or Tzeeentch, or Slaneesh). It does not refer to all units in the army - easy to see as it is in the paragraph dealing with *Marked Characters, Units, or Chariots*.

Simple.

And BTW: A character who joins a unit becomes a member of this unit in all respects. He won't lose his special rules, though (except where noted), but he won't pass them onto the unit neither (except were noted - again). BRB. p.72, right column, last but one paragraph. (Believe me, I know my WHFB rules a bit... )

Festus

Poomermon
23-07-2007, 15:33
Hiyo. You're probably right, here Festus, but if I ever run into someone who says differently, I will need something more substantial. I'm with you in spirit here, but I'm not at all convinced of the thickness of the ice.
I know everyone will not agree direwolf is a reliable source, but its faq says this:

Q. If a character with the Mark of Chaos Undivided joins a unit
of Marauders, can that unit then re-roll failed psychology tests?

A. No.
S. Anthony Reynolds - Warhammer Design Team

At least desingers intent should be clear with this...

Deathjester
23-07-2007, 15:54
Here's the thing:

Stupidity transfers BECAUSE (and you missed this in your quote) of the stupid orders they are getting....

Ok reasonable

Stubborn does NOT transfer to the unit either, as specifically stated in the character section of the rulebook.

IF the unit is stubborn the character becomes stubborn, but not the other way round, however they MAY NOT use the characters leadership to be stubborn on.

Stubborness is NOT psychology, it USED to be, however since the introduction of 7th Edition it is NOT, and is not (as it was before) covered by the Immune to Psychology USR.

Fear and Terror do NOT get transfered to the unit. Neither does Frenzy. Neither does Immune to Psychology, neither does stubborn or Unbreakable.

a Mark of Chaos Doesn't transfer onto the unit from the character; because you test for the UNIT, using the characters Leadership.

What you're saying is the same as saying, ok i've got a slaaneshii general, and as he's Immune to Psychology, and units within 12" can use his leadership they're Immune to Psychology....

Just NO!

mav1971
23-07-2007, 16:00
i learned along time ago not to put a character with chaos hounds. I had my general on horseback with chaos hounds. He did alright, but the hounds got chewed up causing him to flee. I find its better to use them as a cheap and expendable unit or units.

Festus
23-07-2007, 16:37
Hi

Deathjester:
You unfortunately got a few things wrong there, I am afraid:

1st: Stubborn is Psychology. Still. It is just that you are no longer immune to it if Immune to Psychology, as the rules for ItP have changed. (And effectively, the character's Stubborness transfers to the unit in most circumstances. It is just that the unit itself does not become stubborn, but it can and will test on the best Ld, which will be the stubborn Character's Ld - which in turn will not be modified. BRB, p.79))

2nd: Fear is not transferred to the unit, but the immunity against Fear it provides is transferred.

MarcoPollo
23-07-2007, 17:59
Like a post said earlier, take 2 characters on demonic steeds and put them in the front rank. This leaves only one warhound in the front so only a few models get easy kills on the hounds. Your two characters should be able to chew up whatever they can find.

BattleofLund
23-07-2007, 18:20
@MarcoPollo: yes, that's kind of ... evil! I like it, and might even try it. However, I want the following modification: one character is the BSB with Gore Banner. The unit will cost 450+ points, but will also attract much enemy attention and thus spare your more expensive troops.

Oh yes, definitely evil... :D

Lord Steven
23-07-2007, 18:31
I'd think this through.. you'll be able to clip with most units in the side and rear so that the charactors in the front cannot attack.

3 x 50mm for the ranks behind the front row is a lot of room.

sun tzu
24-07-2007, 00:06
Hi

Deathjester:
You unfortunately got a few things wrong there, I am afraid:

1st: Stubborn is Psychology. Still. It is just that you are no longer immune to it if Immune to Psychology, as the rules for ItP have changed. (And effectively, the character's Stubborness transfers to the unit in most circumstances. It is just that the unit itself does not become stubborn, but it can and will test on the best Ld, which will be the stubborn Character's Ld - which in turn will not be modified. BRB, p.79))

Ok, i agree with you on this one:D


2nd: Fear is not transferred to the unit, but the immunity against Fear it provides is transferred.

Again you are right but to clear this up

Fear is not transferred to the unit but if the unit is charged or charges then the enemy unit does have to take a fear test as the charater still causes fear.

If the chaos hounds + fear causing charater win's a combat against an enemy unit that is outnumbered then only the charater's unit streagth counts towards the auto break total.

Khorghan
24-07-2007, 00:31
Fear does transfer into a unit, but since when do hounds gain rank bonuses, im fairly sure they dont

Belerophon709
24-07-2007, 00:57
Fear does transfer into a unit, but since when do hounds gain rank bonuses, im fairly sure they dont

You're wrong, they most certainly do. Nowhere does it say that they don't... They're not fast cav, they're not skirmishers. And... (drumroll)...

Beasts of Chaos Army Book pg 21:

"...while they do not get the bonuses of fast cavalry, they will get a rank bonus in combat."

And fear doesn't transfer into the unit. The character still causes fear though, and enemies must still test when charged or charging, but for purposes of auto-breaking, only the US of the character counts, as the rest of the unit does NOT cause fear.

theunwantedbeing
24-07-2007, 01:22
Shades of death,Walking death.
Unseen lurker,The staff of darkoth,The wolf hunts.

Those spells could be rather useful with such a unit.

Ward.
24-07-2007, 02:49
@MarcoPollo: yes, that's kind of ... evil! I like it, and might even try it. However, I want the following modification: one character is the BSB with Gore Banner. The unit will cost 450+ points, but will also attract much enemy attention and thus spare your more expensive troops.

Oh yes, definitely evil... :D

That's two hero's, your bsb at 450+, what's gonna be more expensive :S

itcamefromthedeep
24-07-2007, 04:09
I never said that special Psy rules are lost, did I (apart from the cases noted in the BRB)?

Well, rerolling failed psychology tests strikes me as a special psychology rule. Not rerolling failed psychology tests really does sound like losing that particular special psychology rule. So yes, it sounds like you are suggesting that in this case, the character loses his/her special rule when joining the unit. That is an interpretation I would like to see backed up (I really would like to see it backed up).


And the bit you quote from HoC - while not a misquote - is taken out of context: The character, the unit, and the chariot are the ones Marked (i.e. having a Mark - either Undivided, or Khoren, or Nurgle, or Tzeeentch, or Slaneesh). It does not refer to all units in the army - easy to see as it is in the paragraph dealing with *Marked Characters, Units, or Chariots*.

Out of context? That's the whole *******' paragraph! :D The entire subsection even! There is no more context! :p
And I quote (the entire subsection here): "MARK OF CHAOS UNDIVIDED
The character, unit or chariot may reroll failed psychology tests". That's it.

There is a Mark of Chaos Undivided in the unit (even if it was not purchased for the unit per se), so why should it not apply?


And BTW: A character who joins a unit becomes a member of this unit in all respects. He won't lose his special rules, though (except where noted), but he won't pass them onto the unit neither (except were noted - again). BRB. p.72, right column, last but one paragraph. (Believe me, I know my WHFB rules a bit... )

I really don't understand where this "becomes a member of the unit in all respects" comes from. Nor do I understand the reference to page 72. In my book, the second-last paragraph on the right hand side of page 72 reads: "Characters mounted on flying creatures cannot join units. Characters mounted on chariots can only join units of chariots." I'm sorry, but I really don't understand where you are going with that one. The paragraph above it sounds more relevant, saying that if a character joins a unit "he becomes part of that unit until he decides to leave it." So that reads to me like the Marked character is part of the unit, so the unit has a Mark of Chaos Undivided in it. Pretty simple.

Putty
24-07-2007, 14:35
Or you can take Flesh hounds of Khorne instead.

20 ranked up WS5 S4 frenzy isn't bad. U need to pay 320 points though (that is almost 40 pts more)

But the Daemonic stability tests will be a bummer... fail the throw and poof they are gone.

Or just take uh 20 Horsemen Maruaders... but they'll be in the 320+ points range if you want them to take frails...

Belerophon709
24-07-2007, 15:17
I really don't understand where this "becomes a member of the unit in all respects" comes from. Nor do I understand the reference to page 72. In my book, the second-last paragraph on the right hand side of page 72 reads: "Characters mounted on flying creatures cannot join units. Characters mounted on chariots can only join units of chariots." I'm sorry, but I really don't understand where you are going with that one. The paragraph above it sounds more relevant, saying that if a character joins a unit "he becomes part of that unit until he decides to leave it." So that reads to me like the Marked character is part of the unit, so the unit has a Mark of Chaos Undivided in it. Pretty simple.

Ok, let me put it to you like this:

Let's say you have a unit of some standard footsloggers, led by a character. Let's say this unit (including the character) has to take a panic test. If it fails, the entire unit, INCLUDING the character, flees.
Let's say you have a unit of marauders, led by a character with the MoCU. The unit doesn't have the mark, so it doesn't benefit from the character having it. It's that simple. Now, you then argue that the character still has it and should be able to reroll. I see your logic here. However, that would be saying that the character takes a SEPERATE panic check in the first place, since the first test made is for the unit. If that were the case, you could end up with the the unit fleeing and the character standing around holding his ground.
If this is the case, then the character in the first example should ALSO take a panic test seperate from the unit, even though he doesn't have MoCU, since the same logic must apply here: that the unit and the character within the unit takes seperate tests.
So your logic leads us to: 1 test for the character (possibly 2 if the character has MoCU) and 1 test for the unit.

It doesn't work that way.

When a character joins a unit, he takes psych-tests as part of the unit. If the unit flees, he flees with it. The UNIT doesn't get the reroll. Giving the character a chance to reroll would mean that he is NOT a part of the unit.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why Festus, as always, is correct.

BattleofLund
24-07-2007, 18:13
That's two hero's, your bsb at 450+, what's gonna be more expensive :S

My 'more expensive troops' are all others. Yes, a unit of five Chosen Knights will cost less than the whole Warhound+characters block (as will ALL my other units), but that is beside the point! Enemy handgunners trying to reduce the dangerous-looking Warhound Monster Unit will kill seven-point mutts instead of 16+ point Horsemen, 19+ point Centigors, or whatever. While the ranged cowards of the enemy put down dogs, the Heroic part of the unit will be (mainly) untouched ... and available for Torpedo Actions if the Warhounds get too torn up.

Anyway, it sounds like a viable ploy to try out at least!

Neknoh
24-07-2007, 21:27
Or you can take Flesh hounds of Khorne instead.

20 ranked up WS5 S4 frenzy isn't bad. U need to pay 320 points though (that is almost 40 pts more)

But the Daemonic stability tests will be a bummer... fail the throw and poof they are gone.

Or just take uh 20 Horsemen Maruaders... but they'll be in the 320+ points range if you want them to take frails...

Wouldn't work, since the unit doesn't get the Rank Bonus, however, there is a tactic used within the Daemonic Legion armies that is know as the Wedge of Khorne or Fleshhound Wedge, basically, four units of five Fleshhounds, the rest of your army now sets up for the kill, lining up face to face with the enemy army, this is usually done by Bloodletters, but can be done by either Chaos Warriors or massive Marauder blocks, you then place your four units of Fleshhounds in snaking formation, each unit next to the other.

Now, next turn, charge the exposed flank of the enemy and charge each of your Marauder units into them, your Fleshhounds will slam into the flank with all Fleshhound attacks, if you have a Daemonic general or is playing a Daemonic Legion, attacks from 5 units rather than 4.

What should now be remembered is that your opponents unit has at least 4 rank breaking units in the flank of his unit, earning +1 CR, then, we have Outnumbering... which is on a number of 40 to 50 in Unit Strength. You WILL win that fight, and then, you are outnumbering your enemy with a Fear causing unit.

Breaking time, and pursuing into another enemy unit, which is in combat, meaning that combat will ensue, and you will win that fight as well, this is a very nice chain of events and has prooved lethal.

Belerophon709
24-07-2007, 21:41
Sounds like a twisted version of the oblique line really. Sounds tempting...

itcamefromthedeep
25-07-2007, 02:22
Let's say you have a unit of some standard footsloggers, led by a character. Let's say this unit (including the character) has to take a panic test. If it fails, the entire unit, INCLUDING the character, flees.

Of course it does, because everyone in the unit, including the character, failed their test. If anyone passes, they all pass, right?


Let's say you have a unit of marauders, led by a character with the MoCU. The unit doesn't have the mark, so it doesn't benefit from the character having it.

Oh no, not at all. I'm saying that because there is Mark of Chaos Undivided in the unit, and ---the Mark does not care who bought it---, the unit get's the Mark's benefit, even though they did not pay for it. The wording of the Mark of Chaos Undivided makes this argument. There is not separate entry for units, characters, and chariots getting the Mark. The Marked character has the special rule: "The unit, character, or chariot with this Mark can reroll failed Psychology tests." The --character's-- rule says the --unit-- can reroll.

The other agument: There is nothing in the rules to suggest that this rule works like stubborn (transferred to the unit). There is also nothing to suggest that the unit removes it from the character (like ItP). Since the character has the rule, and there is nothing to say that he can't use it (nothing in the rules for characters or units says that the unit cannot use the character's special psychology rules), I do not see why the unit should not get the reroll.

Putty
25-07-2007, 06:01
Wouldn't work, since the unit doesn't get the Rank Bonus, however, there is a tactic used within the Daemonic Legion armies that is know as the Wedge of Khorne or Fleshhound Wedge, basically, four units of five Fleshhounds, the rest of your army now sets up for the kill, lining up face to face with the enemy army, this is usually done by Bloodletters, but can be done by either Chaos Warriors or massive Marauder blocks, you then place your four units of Fleshhounds in snaking formation, each unit next to the other.

Now, next turn, charge the exposed flank of the enemy and charge each of your Marauder units into them, your Fleshhounds will slam into the flank with all Fleshhound attacks, if you have a Daemonic general or is playing a Daemonic Legion, attacks from 5 units rather than 4.

What should now be remembered is that your opponents unit has at least 4 rank breaking units in the flank of his unit, earning +1 CR, then, we have Outnumbering... which is on a number of 40 to 50 in Unit Strength. You WILL win that fight, and then, you are outnumbering your enemy with a Fear causing unit.

Breaking time, and pursuing into another enemy unit, which is in combat, meaning that combat will ensue, and you will win that fight as well, this is a very nice chain of events and has prooved lethal.

Wow... thanks for the input. This is very useful~!

Festus
25-07-2007, 07:51
Hi

The last thig before I leave this thread:
Since the character has the rule, ... I do not see why the unit should not get the reroll.
Don't you still see it, after you wrote it yourself? :eyebrows:

Festus

Belerophon709
25-07-2007, 09:11
I do not see why the unit should not get the reroll.

Simply because of the reasons I already laid out. They don't have the mark. The mark is not transferred to the unit. They don't get the benefits. For the mark to take effect, seperate rolls for the character and the unit would be needed, since the character's mark won't have an influence on the die roll of the unit and since the die roll belongs to the unit and not the character, the character would have to be allowed to make a seperate roll in the first place so that he might possibly use his mark if the first check fails.

See, what you're doing is arguing that "it doesn't say the mark isn't transferred to the unit"...

Counter-argument:

My empire handgunners can fly, cause terror, cast spells from any lore like a lvl 900 wizard, spew fire, can infiltrate enemy lines, can operate as skirmishers, gaining full benefits, but none of the downsides and so on and so on... all based on the fact that the rules don't explicitly say that I can't do it.

Neknoh
25-07-2007, 09:19
You are twisting words for crying out loud, "The Character, Unit or Chariot gets the reroll", not "The unit or chariot the character has joined" as you seem to be reading it, the original quite reffers to THE BEARER, be it a Unit, Character or Chariot!!!

Oh, another question, why is it possible if fielding Crom the Conqueror to MARK Marauders with THE MARK OF CHAOS UNDIVIDED if there is simply no need for it whatsoever?

Belerophon709
25-07-2007, 10:21
Oh, another question, why is it possible if fielding Crom the Conqueror to MARK Marauders with THE MARK OF CHAOS UNDIVIDED if there is simply no need for it whatsoever?

Excellent point!

itcamefromthedeep
25-07-2007, 11:06
Well, since the rules argument has ceased to amuse me and I would never argue it to an opponent in real life, I'll drop it.


basically, four units of five Fleshhounds, the rest of your army now sets up for the kill, lining up face to face with the enemy army, this is usually done by Bloodletters, but can be done by either Chaos Warriors or massive Marauder blocks, you then place your four units of Fleshhounds in snaking formation, each unit next to the other.

Perhaps I'm missing something here. If there are Marauders in the fron and small Flesh Hound units to the side, the enemy would flee away from the Marauders, because that is the unit with the highest Unit Strength.

The "take up as much space as possible with Daemonic Mounts" tactic sounds interesting as well. The new High Elf Lions from their Chariot couls see some use there. Anyone looking to do that should look up the Thing in the Woods, though. An awesome Daemonic Mount under any circumstances, but particulalry in Warhounds
http://ca.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.ca?do=Individual&code=99111199020&orignav=300808

Punk_in_Drublic
25-07-2007, 12:23
Well, since the rules argument has ceased to amuse me and I would never argue it to an opponent in real life, I'll drop it.

Dude. You're being an ass.

Later,

-Punk

Festus
25-07-2007, 19:36
Hi

Dude. You're being an ass.

QFT

Festus

itcamefromthedeep
26-07-2007, 12:25
We seem to be talking past each other, which is simply no fun for anyone. Since the argument is not going to come up in game (because I'm with you guys in spirit), there's no point to hurting feelings any more. Now, rereading that last post of mine I failed rather badly there. I'm sorry.

sun tzu
27-07-2007, 07:58
I think this has been sorted out to the best of our ability and it is clear to me how I will be playing the rules covered in this thread in the future.

Good job people