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View Full Version : Movement Tray vs. Model's Base



DaBrode
23-07-2007, 21:18
I played a game recently where the opponent (during measuring distances) did not count the edge of the movement tray as a "hit", "successful charge", etc. and this was new to me. As long as no one is using a ridiculously large edge on their movement tray I've always played that the edge of the tray is the edge of the unit.

How do you play it and is it important to play one way or another?

Festus
23-07-2007, 21:44
Hi

The edge of the movement tray is just that: A Movement Tray's part.

In WHFB, you measure from and to models' bases, not to or form Movement trays...

Festus

DaBrode
23-07-2007, 21:49
Ok. So that is a pretty big part of the game as far as playing it correctly goes? Interesting. Thanks.

Khorghan
23-07-2007, 21:57
You measure from the base.

theunwantedbeing
23-07-2007, 22:28
Yep,measure from the bases,the movement tray is not a base so you dont measure from it.
Otherwise your cheating effectively,regardless of how little extra distance you are generating.

Makaber
23-07-2007, 22:33
Well, if you're just, say, moving the regiment forwards, as long as you're measuring from the same point when you start moving the unit, and when it stops, anything goes. But technically, if it's a crucial measurement with small margins, you measure from bases.

It's especially important when the width of the regiment is the issue, otherwise you might start to count more models as being in base to base and thus able to fight, that what is legally the case.

Iron Father
24-07-2007, 02:02
Yep,measure from the bases,the movement tray is not a base so you dont measure from it.
Otherwise your cheating effectively,regardless of how little extra distance you are generating.

so if im using the textured GW movement trays, and i deploy, move, and shoot from the edge of that movement tray, then im cheating?

Masque
24-07-2007, 02:09
so if im using the textured GW movement trays, and i deploy, move, and shoot from the edge of that movement tray, then im cheating?

Yes. While most of the time it simply won't matter it will change how things work when getting flank or rear charged, fleeing, or wheeling.

DaBrode
24-07-2007, 06:11
so if im using the textured GW movement trays, and i deploy, move, and shoot from the edge of that movement tray, then im cheating?


I wouldn't go that far. You're not cheating. You're just not playing the measurements as tight as they could be played.

I have been thinking about this and unless it was a tourney situation I don't see it as a huge deal as long as the people playing both partake in it.

Some people are very loose in their measuring of distances and wheeling anyway and I'm usually cool about it and if It's close we roll off. To say it's "cheating" is to assume you're opponent isn't aware that you are doing it and yes, that would be wrong.

Gorbad Ironclaw
24-07-2007, 07:11
I have been thinking about this and unless it was a tourney situation I don't see it as a huge deal as long as the people playing both partake in it.



Excuse me while I go a little off topic, but why would it matter if it was a tournament game or not?

I don't see the big difference there to be honest. Both are played using the same rules, and, in my experience, pretty much in the same spirit(fun!). I don't see friendly games as an excuse to be sloppy with things, but on the other hand I don't see tournament games as an excuse to be overly pedantic either.

Ganymede
24-07-2007, 15:31
It is a good idea, as well as the propper way, to measure from the base and not the tray. That being said, most trays are substantially less wide than a quarter inch. An eigth of an inch, nine times out of ten, will not make a difference.

JackBurton01
24-07-2007, 15:59
I don't think it matters as long as you are measuring consitently from the edge of the tray. It really won't effect anything. Now if you are switching up during the game then I would get a little mad.

Putty
24-07-2007, 19:02
i prefer base to base measurements

movement tray isn't the base. ;-)

Lardidar
24-07-2007, 19:23
I agree base to base.

I have seen some home made trays with some HUGE lips ... if it was played tray to tray they would have an advantage.

Deacon Bane
24-07-2007, 19:50
Wow, I have been playing WFB for 13 years and have been to 3 Conflicts and countless tournaments across Canada. This is the first time I have heard of this. The edges of your movement tray represents where your base would be, the tray is for ease of movement. As long as you are consistant it shouldn't matter.

Festus
24-07-2007, 20:02
Hi

yes, we all know that you are the most bestest WHFB player ever. You roxxor... :eyebrows:

Care to read the original post?

Of course, if you consitently measure your movement from the tray, there is no difference at all. But it becomes a problem in the situations described in the original post:
When is a unit hit (by missile weapons, spells, templates, etc...)? Is it hit if you hit the tray? Or do you need to hit a model's base? Is a charge sucessful if you manage to touch the tray? Do you have Base to Base contact if you can just touch the tray?

Well, I know what the rules say...

...and if it becomes in any way important, use the models' bases, do not use the tray.

Festus

E-Dog
24-07-2007, 20:41
Tray-dawg, In our group we always measure from the tray....always.

Jampire
25-07-2007, 01:25
I'm surprised at how many people are adamantly saying you should measure from the base. If both players are measuring from the tray, what's the difference? Even if another player has a thick lip on his movement tray wouldn't it be just as disadvanatageous to him/her as it was advantageous?
Been playing for several years and I've never seen anyone care if measurements were taken from the base or from the tray...
I know what's written in the rules but it's just odd to me is all...

DaBrode
25-07-2007, 02:40
I'll be completely honest....it's good to see how many people have come out to speak for the tray as a point of measurement. I'd been doing this all along and for someone early on to say I was cheating seemed unfair.

Kotobuki
25-07-2007, 03:43
The base is what you're supposed to measure from and to. I custom make my movement trays, personally, and my edges are .08" in order to minimize how much they affect the game, and to keep distances as accurate as possible, while allowing the bases to move easily.

I regularly find myself in situations where a charge could reach Tray to Tray, but not base to base. Even when the difference is as small as 1/8", it's still important. I've personally set my guys up that close to the enemy to bait them into a charge they should fail... and if they decide that since their tray can touch my tray (even though the bases can't) they get a successful charge, yes... I feel cheated, and rightly so. I've also failed those same types of charges by less than the width of my movement tray, because my base was JUST out of reach of the enemy. And If I'd've insisted that my movement tray touched theirs, so I should get the charge... yes, I'd've cheated them as well.

JackBurton01
25-07-2007, 04:27
This is a bit silly. When you deploy your troops if you measure from the lip, the lip becomes the base and anytime you move after that it represents where your base would be if you were not using the lip. Other wise yes you would have people charging too soon or shooting out of range, but it is not an issue if you start out correctly. If you don't believe me got check it out with a ruler.

Festus
25-07-2007, 08:15
It has nothing to do with a ruler, but with consistency.

Movement is the only thing where you can use the tray - as long as you keep consistent and as long as both are doing it. And even then, you enlarge your unit by quite some margin (in the case of GW trays by half an infantry-base).

Shooting gets extremely messy, as do all things connected with skirmishers, who generally do not have a tray to start with. And there are units which reform, abandoning their tray or change shape in any other way.

How can you even think it is possible to be consistent with this mess is beyond me, honestly. Why not simply stick with the rules and measure from the bases and not the tray?
It is not as if it were more work or so - or is it?

Festus

Atrahasis
25-07-2007, 13:38
If you measure from the movement tray then the unit's size is artificially increased. This is bad for any sort of ranged attack and many psychological effects.

For example http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/9425/movetrayvd5.png

The unit in the centre should be in range of neither ofthe red units' pistols, but if we measure from the movement tray it is in range of both.

theunwantedbeing
25-07-2007, 14:20
Moving the unit stright forwards....makes no difference whatsoever if you measure from the tray or the base.Your still getting the same movement.

Measuring from the tray to the base is the only exception here which would be considered cheating,as your generating a little extra movement if you are moving your unit its maximum range.

Wheeling takes more movement measuring from the tray,so you cant wheel as far.....seeing as the tray is wider and you'll be wheeling from the corners,taking 2 corners into consideration makes the raduis of the wheel noticably longer,and so means you dont get to wheel as far.

Simply doing all measurements from the base is so much simpler and causes no problems at all,plus it has advantages...eg.wheeling.

ReveredChaplainDrake
25-07-2007, 14:28
Yes, but that "artificially" puts you closer to the enemy.

That being said, I don't play with movement trays except for footblocks. I've seen guys with movement trays for 20mm base Skirmishers / Flyers, but as I also play horde Tyranids, I have no excuse to be too lazy to move around, at most, 20 Skinks. Cavalry are also pretty straightforward, especially in about units of 5-7, and Also, I've never seen an Undead player use a movement tray. They're always Neheking their units to unusual sizes. (Come to think of it, why shambling Skeletons would fit into nice, neat ranks is beyond me...)

I'm working on a project with my Dark Elf Warriors, using heavy cardboard as a base and file folders / GW boxes as a rim, so that my bases have virtually no overhang. I'm sticking with my reconstructed 4x5 GW bases for my Lizardmen, but I also have homemade 3x5 trays for my Quetzl Saurus, because they usually deploy in smaller squad sizes.

Some areas where movement trays pretty much have to be used are with Orcs, because they go flying off all wild at pretty much no notice, and they can move several times per turn with the right magic.

ZeroTwentythree
25-07-2007, 15:01
Sometimes I feel like I'm losing faith in my fellow WFB players...

There are two issues at hand.

One is movement, which is simple displacement. If you move 4" and measure from the base at both the start and end, or the tray at start and end, it doesn't matter. Displacement is the same. (With some minor differences, as theunwantedbeing pointed out, because wheeling will be based on a larger arc**)

The second is total unit base dimensions. Atrahasis' diagram shows this well. It will impact missile fire, as he mentioned, and some psych effects (panic, terror, etc) and as Makaber mentioned, you end up with a skewed number of figures in base to base contact for combat.

If you have a 5 x 5 block of skaven, for example, that's 5 x 20mm = 100mm. But if you add 5mm on each side for the movement tray, that's now a 110mm unit. "The edges of your movement tray represents where your base would be" (Deacon Bane's comment) is wrong.

I don't see what's difficult to understand.






(** I've noticed more and more players don't even bother to wheel anymore, and just move their figures in a whatever manner they wish, up to their movement characteristic. And people get upset when you tell them they have to wheel, and can't charge diagonally!)

klinktastic
25-07-2007, 15:05
Thats why you need to have one of those wheeling templates, so they can see they are moving wrong.

Deacon Bane
25-07-2007, 15:15
Well people are touchy on this subject, surprise surprise. First Festus, my post was not to claim my genius at WHFB, it was merely to state that I have played a wide selection of players and in different levels of tournaments. So it seems a surprise that so many people are playing the game wrong. Second 023 see above. I think from the variety of posts I'm not the only one "wrong".
I play because i enjoy the hobby and people who get hung up on 0.8 of an inch should play Magic.

Atrahasis
25-07-2007, 15:17
Those wheeling templates are inaccurate except for a unit of a specific width.

Atrahasis
25-07-2007, 15:18
0.8 of an inch should play Magic.0.8 of an inch is a vast distance, equivalent to a 20mm base :confused:

You won't mind me killing your general if my cannonball falls 0.8" short?

klinktastic
25-07-2007, 15:21
@ Deacon

The problem lies within how far do you adhere to the rules. If you are relaxed abou the measurements from the bases, are you relaxed about everything else, or do you rules lawyer out other aspects of the game. However, if you strictly adhere to the rules all of the time, you can never be called a cheater or someone who is manipulating the rules subjectively instead of objectively for their benefit. That is why people follow the rules, because then there is no question. Find me a rule saying that the movement tray is part of the unit's base, then I will use that. Otherwise, I am just going to follow the rules, as they were written (though maybe not intended) because that's what you are supposed to do to keep the game objective as possible and promote equality amongst players.

@ Atrahasis

The wheeling templates are still better than just having someone basically turn their unit and move it forward like they are using the rules for fleeing from panic.

Atrahasis
25-07-2007, 15:27
@ Atrahasis

The wheeling templates are still better than just having someone basically turn their unit and move it forward like they are using the rules for fleeing from panic.
True, but the use for them that was presented was to show that the other methods are inaccurate, and using an inaccurate method to do that is folly.

ZeroTwentythree
25-07-2007, 15:30
Actually, I've seen the wheeling templates used wrong as well.

The arc should be used placed a consistent distance from the pivot point (based on the arc size,) but everyone seems to place them with the arc on the outside of the unit.

That's a bit nitpicky, I realize...

For example a unit of cavalry 12 wide (12") moving along the outer wheeling end of the unit on an arc designed for 5 wide infantry unit (5" wide) a distance of 8", could rob itself of about 1/2"+/- of movement.

Yes, nitpicky...


((edit : ok, you guys beat me to that, posting while I was typing...))


I play because i enjoy the hobby and people who get hung up on 0.8 of an inch should play Magic.

I play for enjoyment too. However, these are some really simple basic rules, and can frequently mean the difference between successful and failed charges, extra dragon ogre attacks, or whatever other situations may arise.

And yes, when moving, I generally measure on the tray. But as I said, there are two issues - displacement and unit size.

The movement tray is there to help with movement. If you ignore its presence for all other purposes, the game works as intended and is fair for everyone.

explorator
25-07-2007, 16:19
I fall in the base-to-base camp, however, the only time this is an issue in my group is when counting the number of models that may fight in a combat. I often say to my opponents "No, that model is not corner-to-corner with my model, but with my movement tray, and so is not allowed to attack." This can be a huge deal. All critical measurements should be base-to-base.

Festus
25-07-2007, 18:15
Hi

Well people are touchy on this subject, surprise surprise. First Festus, my post was not to claim my genius at WHFB, it was merely to state that I have played a wide selection of players and in different levels of tournaments. So it seems a surprise that so many people are playing the game wrong.
I am sorry if I came across as offensive or even offended, I am and was not, sorry.

It is just that those little *leeways* of 1/8" here and 1/2" there can put an end to cleverly laid moves which depend on this 1/2" - and this is quite often in a game relying on manoeuvre as its hardest part, where many units often have the same Movement.

Empire vs Orcs is a prime example: If I trick my Orc oponent into believing that I am 7 6/8" away and a unit to be charged, while I am actually at 8.2", then I hve bagged the other unit for good - provided I have an Empire unit which can charge the Orcs in the flank after a failed charge.

Now that becomes pointless, if the tray is suddenly *part of my unit*.

It gets worse still with shooting: "See, I grazed your tray with my tape. So I can shoot...!"
:rolleyes:

Amongst the finer tacticians and manoeuvres (yes, it is me who boasts here ;) ), a fraction of an inch can be the difference between loss and win. The difference between *within the General's radius* or *without*...

Festus

edit: Oh, and BTW - I edited this post with the aid of the little *EDIT* button. A few of you could use this too, to keep double posting to a minimum ... Right, klinktastic or 023?

CarlostheCraven
26-07-2007, 01:00
Hi

My personal approach is to discuss it with my opponent before the game begins, and play whatever style he likes.

As long as both players play by the same rule of thumb from the start of the game, it really isn't a big deal.

Cheers,
Carlos the Craven

Rabban
26-07-2007, 02:41
P.S. Fetus, I'll double post if I want!

Have a look at http://www.warseer.com/forums/faq.php?faq=rules#faq_posting_guidelines

Posting guideline #12 "19: Remember once you have posted, and you wish to change or add something to your post, the EDIT button is there for a purpose. NO double posting. Please use the EDIT function."

On topic, movement trays definitely have an impact, although it's often small, I guess it does depend on how seriously your playing. Then again, we normally use old 2nd ed 40K datafaxes and mission cards as trays, they've got no raised edges so it's fine. :)

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
26-07-2007, 03:06
I love this forum. Some of these discussions are hysterical. You guys are the best.

That being said, I get the displacement argument and recognise the "makes your unit wider" argument. I'm also a base-to-base measurer, as per the rules, and use movement trays to shuttle my boyz around. If you can't handle all the "confusion" that comes along with the movement trays, go play 40K!

...which I do play, and enjoy. It's just a lot simpler.

Spud153
26-07-2007, 03:38
It really shouldn't matter as long as both players are keeping it consistent.

WLBjork
26-07-2007, 06:58
Provided you measure same point to same point for movement, you're OK.

All other measurements (Skirmish Formation, Shooting, Psychology, Magic and Magic Item Effects) require measurement from base to base though. Likewise, Charging requires you to reach base-to-base contact.