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Fist of Terra
24-07-2007, 12:17
I used to be an avid helblaster fanatic...but after getting the new Empire book...not so much.

Discuss.

Ninsaneja
24-07-2007, 12:36
The new Hellblaster is worse. Not much more to say. Combine that with Outriders, which are more expensive, but only special and more reliable at shooting, and with the new Pistoliers, which now shoot twice, and with the Hellstorm, which has the capacity for more destruction and has less misfire chances...

Fist of Terra
24-07-2007, 12:52
The new Hellblaster is worse. Not much more to say. Combine that with Outriders, which are more expensive, but only special and more reliable at shooting, and with the new Pistoliers, which now shoot twice, and with the Hellstorm, which has the capacity for more destruction and has less misfire chances...


It's funny you mentioned that..I took Outriders instead of a Helblaster. It seems to me the only way to make a Helblaster slightly good anymore is to throw in an Engineer...which is a big waste of a Hero slot.

I'm eager to try the Helstorm, seems with a good hit it can do as much damage as the old Helblaster....

Ninsaneja
24-07-2007, 13:18
And with less chance to splode. Note that it costs more than the Helblaster!

Alathir
24-07-2007, 14:42
That Helstorm is oddly accurate though for such an apparently inaccurate machine.. and whats with the autohits even on partials? And for only 5 points more than the helblaser?

Sheesh.

DarthBinky
25-07-2007, 16:37
That Helstorm is oddly accurate though for such an apparently inaccurate machine.. and whats with the autohits even on partials? And for only 5 points more than the helblaser?
It autohits on partials?

Maximus Lucifer
25-07-2007, 17:09
autohit? thatsn new...where is it?

DarthBinky
25-07-2007, 17:54
The only thing I can think of is that Alathir misread the Helstorm's rules, where it says that if you're under the hole, you're auto-hit even if it's a partial (which wouldn't come into play often, but still, it means you can still hit dragons, chariots, stegadons and other large models).

empireguard
27-07-2007, 04:45
The new Hellblaster is worse. Not much more to say. Combine that with Outriders, which are more expensive, but only special and more reliable at shooting, and with the new Pistoliers, which now shoot twice, and with the Hellstorm, which has the capacity for more destruction and has less misfire chances...

Only special? that seems to be a very sort after spot for empire, being rare is a good thing for me. Outriders a only strenght 4 that seems to be a very big difference. If you don't mind that go hand gunners, only a few more points for just as many shoots, they hit on the same roll, 3x the wounds and it's only core

I do think the helblaster was nerfed a little but if you look at it it is infact better at long range than it was it's only short range where is falls down. I think the Helstorm is the better option now when killing blocks of troops.

The helblaster still has its place but only for killing long lines of troops and small tough units.

Ninsaneja
27-07-2007, 05:18
I do think the helblaster was nerfed a little but if you look at it it is in fact worse at long range

Corrected. What part of rolling to hit didn't you understand?

MAD MAN-A-TRON
27-07-2007, 05:45
For the month or two I've been using a helblaster, I've had incredible luck with it. I can recall only misfiring twice, in a recent battle, both times the weapon didn't explode and I could either shoot my remaining barrels or shoot in the next turn. Apparently, most other Empire players have not shared my luck. (even as I type this, the dice gods conspire against me)

empireguard
27-07-2007, 06:09
Corrected. What part of rolling to hit didn't you understand?

Ok lets say I roll 30
old rules that 15 hits S4 so if the enermy was T4 that would be 7.5 saves at -2 right
T3 would be 10 at -2
T5 would be 5 at -2
T6 would be 2.5 at -2

New rules 30 roll to hit you would get 10 hits (assuming only long range) rolls to wound at strengh T4 that would be 6.66 Wounds a -3
T3 would be 8.33 at -3
T5 would be 5 at -3
T6 would be 3.33 at -3

There is very little difference at long range

knightime98
27-07-2007, 06:13
That Helstorm is oddly accurate though for such an apparently inaccurate machine.. and whats with the autohits even on partials? And for only 5 points more than the helblaser?

Sheesh.

Oddly accurate??? You have twice the chance for a misfire. Once for the extra distance, and once again for the scatter. If you misfire on the 2nd roll for the scatter the shot is just "discounted"! How in the world is this even close to "Accurate" ????

Don't take this as an attack... I'm just voicing my point of view.

Hywel
27-07-2007, 13:28
I prefer the helblaster now and will be more inclined to take one. Rolling up automatic hits was just ludicrous and not at all in line with the game. It's still very effective when you consider it to be more like a condensed, powerful but slightly erratic unit of handgunners rather than the atomic bomb of warhammer.

No, that role is now firmly in the hands of the helstorm. It may well be unreliable, but that is a fair price to pay for one of the few things in the game that can remove a unit in one hit.

Ninsaneja
27-07-2007, 13:50
So the Helblaster is *slightly* better at killing things with t4+ with a 4+ save.
And worse at:
-Short Range
-Skirmishers
-Cover

I still think it's not worth taking anymore, Helstorm simply does more.

Von Wibble
27-07-2007, 15:47
Helblaster before the rules change was ridicuously overpowered. I never took more than 1 as it just wasn't fair on the opponent.

Oddly it hasn't changed that much. At long range vs 4+ or better saves (vs anything worse you have plenty of other stuff) it is comparable. And cheaper.

Short range - doesn't happen against a canny opponent so weakening it here has little effect (other than to stop unlucky pursuing Chosen chaos knights of Khorne from being wiped out in one go. But that was why it was too good before).

Therefore use it. Mine have never failed to pay off their points in a battle where they got to shoot before being killed.

Helstorm - could be OK but the armies I face are rarely susceptible to template weapons - Chaos for example have only warriors and marauders - the former fairly useless and te latter killable by pretty much anything. Vs armies with more infantry I could have a use for it, especially if they aren't coming to me (eg dwarfs).

At the end of the day the comparison between the war machines is simply resolved by considering what you want. For me the helstorm is too inaccurate - with Empire I want to focus on an enemy unit (or more) and specifically neutralise the threat offered by it. Since the chances of the helstorm hitting are too low, whilst you would have to be majorly unlucky not to do something with the helblaster (have to add I have never rolled lower than 4 on the misfire table), I prefer the reliable weapon.

empireguard
27-07-2007, 17:46
So the Helblaster is *slightly* better at killing things with t4+ with a 4+ save.
And worse at:
-Short Range
-Skirmishers
-Cover

I still think it's not worth taking anymore, Helstorm simply does more.

exactly it mostly the same at long range over all Better better at large/expensive/better armoured/tough targets and worse at light/weak/cheap/poorly armoured troops and at short range its half as good.

Cool don't take it, but it could be better based on the army you facing.

Hywel
27-07-2007, 23:50
Helblaster before the rules change was ridicuously overpowered.

This is the key point.

People should stop comparing it to its former incarnation and instead compare it to other options in the current list.

empireguard
28-07-2007, 04:09
This is the key point.

People should stop comparing it to its former incarnation and instead compare it to other options in the current list.

Very true.

to me the only thing I think got overly nerfed was the steam tank. Not because it now overly powerfull but now 2 wounds on it and its out of the game. Sure if it stays on full wounds its great, but other wise I'll never take it except for fun.

anyway back on topic I don't think you can compare Helblaster and Helstorm each is better in one area or another.

The_Dark_Raven
28-07-2007, 06:07
here is the thing,

HellBlaster = MUCH BETTER THEN BEFORE, it doesn't auto hit, and its hard to hit now, this is what everybody hated so it was changed, i use it in my army and it deals more then its points most games. The thing people have said is you get to make it better with a master engineer, this is wrong the weapon is far too random for a engineer to work with it so it can't take one just like its counterpart the hellstorm.

HellStorm = GREAT, i used it three to four times but only facing orks, as with my other friends get armies suited to the hellblaster. Though the risk of it hitting the Empire is to great for me. See you vs Chaos and u take it, BIG MISTAKE it hits you harder then them so why take it??????? the hellblaster would be used better in this case.


so if you take on fast armies or armies with lots of troops with loads of armour then Hellblaster is better investment, though the Hellstorm is better for tighly packed foes with slower movement.

In short the Empire should take the Hellstorm keeping with it's blackpowder heavy forces and not taking chances ( though wizard are the exception on the chance game because of Mr.Gelt and Volkmar ).

Steel_Legion
28-07-2007, 07:22
Helstorm! Just for the fun of it, but make the model slightly nicer looking, not a fan of NINE rockets, 6 perhaps. The rules seem fun and if it lands on target... kaboom!

kris.sherriff
28-07-2007, 08:02
The thing people have said is you get to make it better with a master engineer, this is wrong the weapon is far too random for a engineer to work with it so it can't take one just like its counterpart the hellstorm.

You can still join a Hellblaster/Hellstorm with an engineer you just cant use his ability to re-roll a missfire result, you can use his BS4 to shoot it though.
(don't know why you would attach an engineer to a Hellstorm just saying that you can.)

Kris

athamas
28-07-2007, 09:36
Helblaster's are very dangerous still, but also highly likely to blow up...

and even when it does blow up there is a chance it will still kill alot of enemies...

the Helstorm is usefull against horde armies, not so much against elite armies!

Mthiemann
13-08-2007, 05:25
I just used my 2 Helblasters tonight again. I got off 74 shots in the first two turns before they both blew up. I sware by them, and if I had known I could take an engineer with them for the BS 4 it would have changed the entire game.

I think I will take two engineers next game and see how it they fair. That BS 4 will help out so much. Thanks for the idea.

As for the topic, I will have to agree that tightly packed horde armies and the helstorm is the way to go. But in my experence with the Helblaster nothing is like the possiblity of 30 S5, -3 AS shots to ruin anyone's day no matter how tempermental the weapon is. By adding an engineer the Helblaster should be fine against Skirmishers with his BS 4 thus nullifing the -1 for shooting at skirmishers. Come to think of it, with the engineer this should negate the -1 modifer for single models in a wood. A poor Orc Wizard in the woods all alone thinking that it will take 7s to hit him will have a rude awaking when it only takes 6s.

Grand Warlord
14-08-2007, 04:38
I take neither, but I would use the Helblaster over the Helstorm ... too many bad experiences with self explodiation [sp?] lol

StormCrow
14-08-2007, 07:50
autohit? thatsn new...where is it?


Oddly accurate??? You have twice the chance for a misfire. Once for the extra distance, and once again for the scatter. If you misfire on the 2nd roll for the scatter the shot is just "discounted"! How in the world is this even close to "Accurate" ????

Don't take this as an attack... I'm just voicing my point of view.

So the partials don't autohit, and if you roll a misfire on the second dice for scatter the shot is discounted?!

Don't take me as a critic but could you guys cite in the empire book where (or where it is omitted) these rules are written. I might need to have a long talk with a certain empire player i know...:mad: