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Lady's Champion
21-08-2005, 09:41
If all Gods are Chaos Gods ultimately (see horders of chaos book) doesn't that mean that indirectly all the people are the Warhammer World are indirectly worshipping at least 1 of the great 4?

If this is so then why do the Chaos armies slaughter all through Kislev and the Empire? Surely all the inhabitants are worshipping Chaos Gods anyway, so basically the Gods would be killing their own followeres.

Any thoughts?

RobC
21-08-2005, 09:48
*sigh*
It doesn't work like that.

All gods owe their existance to human belief and emotion. The warp gives strong feelings form. The strongest emotions, those we all share and cannot control, have manifested as insane, capricious warp entities. But, because the warp is nothing like reality, there are no complete distinctions. Even Khorne and Slaanesh have the occasional overlap, despite their usually being sworn enemies.

The lesser gods embody lesser emotions and/or beliefs, and as such some of their energies are shared by the Chaos gods. If you're a worshipper of Ulric, you will think it fine to enter a rage in battle. But while your battlefield prowess might benefit Ulric, the underlying raw emotion will feed Khorne. If you're a davout Shallyan, the hope you feel in helping the poor and downtrodden will also feed Nurgle.

I've not explained this very well, but it is at the heart of the Warhammer mythos and I find it quite exasperating that so many gamers seem to completely miss the point.

ryng_sting
21-08-2005, 12:55
The answer is that they are, but also that they're not.

Each of the major 4 powers represents, at their core, one of the strongest mortal emotions. Khorne represents rage , Slaanesh pleasure, Tzeentch hope, and Nurgle despair (disease isn't an emotion). Each has since branched out to encompass other, related emotions. Rage leads to hate, which leads to violence, which leads to war. So Khorne has become not only the god of rage, but also the god of war, blood, hate, the urge to destroy and dominate, slaughter, and martial prowess. This is why the Chaos powers are so powerful - the core emotions that form them are so broad.

This is where other gods fit in. Other gods are based on more specific emotions or concepts, which is partly why they are less powerful. If each Chaos god is a space of land, the other gods would be buildings upon them. Ulric, like Khorne, stands for martial prowess, contempt for the weak and self-suffiency; so he stands somewhere in Khorne's 'zone'. Shallya, similarly, stands on Tzeentch's territory, standing as she does for hope and mercy in the face of despair and entropy, which are the domain of Tzeentch's great adversary, Nurgle. This means the lesser gods are connected to them, but not under their control in any way, shape or form. Each has drives and goals that oppose those of the Chaos gods. Sigmar, among other things, stands for self-suffiency and unity in the face of Chaos, and the righteous power to smite evil.

Sound simple, so far?

Now imagine the places where each of these zones overlap. There you find other gods: the Horned Rat lies somewhere between Nurgle and Tzeentch, while Myrmidia and Sigmar, as martial gods, stand on Khorne's territory. This gets even more complicated when you take into account the gods who were once mortal...

Only excessive levels of each god's core emotion give them any direct power over mortals. True, every minor squabble or brawl might empower Khorne in some minor way, but these are barely crumbs compared to the food he can find elsewhere. It is known that the gods ignore other mortals in order to can lean on those who best nourish them and go on nourishing them.

Lord Lucifer
21-08-2005, 14:18
If all Gods are Chaos Gods ultimately (see horders of chaos book) doesn't that mean that indirectly all the people are the Warhammer World are indirectly worshipping at least 1 of the great 4?
Nope.

You only worship Khorne if you worship in his name, and likewise with Tzeentch, Nurgle, Slaanesh, Verena, Shallya, Sigmar, Ulric, Taal, Morr, The Horned Rat, Hashut, Asuryan, Lileath, Kurnous, Khaine, Khaine, Khaine, Vaul, Grimnir, Valaya, Grungni, Sotek, Ranald, Haendryk etc.

Chaos, as in the army of spiky gits in the game, is not the totality of Chaos.
That faction, and the rest of Chaos, should have a clear distinction between them. To help one isn't necessarily to help the other.


The nature of the Gods is also quite complex in ways, but once you've got the basic concept it's actually quite simple.
They're sentient points in a melting pot of emotions, and the bits that form one God are also part of the bits that form another God.


Now, the Chaos Gods are the simplist and most basic form of this emotional soup.
Between them they encompass all the elements, and are at the very heart of them.
You see, not everyone knows about Ulric. Ulric is a complex God, with many aspects to his nature and a clearly defined geneology (is that the right word for it?) He is a war god, and many other things.
People that do not know of him will not worship him, or regard or observe him. However, all people know hate, rage, and anger. As soon as you give those base emotions a name, you are worshipping Khorne. It is far easier to indirectly worship the Greater Powers than it is to indirectly worship a God from the civilised pantheons.



Much, much, MUCH more to say on the subject, but I'll cut myself short here

barbarella
21-08-2005, 14:18
Also I don't think khorne is particularly fussy who gets killed, even his own followers, as long as there's plenty of bloodshed.

Lady's Champion
21-08-2005, 19:55
I thought Slaanesh was excess, not pleasure?

ryng_sting
22-08-2005, 17:46
Excess is not an emotion but a state deriving from pleasure, which is an emotion. Pleasure comes from many sources. It can come from taking pleasure in fine wine or food, or torturing animals. Slaanesh doesn't care. Excess (and selfishness) is the inevitable destination for his followers: each sensation they take makes them more jaded and desperate, so they plumb ever further depths of depravity, which numb them even more, and so on. Slaaneshi worship - to borrow MvS's metaphor - is like a drug habit.

MorningStar
22-08-2005, 18:37
Well the way I take it why the chaos gods are more powerful then the rest is because they let you give in too your baser instincts. So that is why khorne, tzeentch, nurgle and slannesh get so many followers and of course the more followers the more powerful a god because they are feeding off of those emotions.

librerian_samae
22-08-2005, 19:06
if you go by that theory though, just how POWERFULL would the horned rat be?!?!?! :eek:

MorningStar
22-08-2005, 20:30
Don't know much about fantasy battles so I don't know but from that experision i would think pretty powerful

metro_gnome
23-08-2005, 01:06
a little off topic... but there was a thread like this over here... in which someone quoted a interview with Gav on the matter... for the life of me i can't find it today... anyone know where it is... to post over here?

brother_fandango
23-08-2005, 04:26
NURRGGLEEEE! *slight chuckle*

metro_gnome
23-08-2005, 14:30
found it:


I'm just going by what Gav said a while ago.

Do you want the 'real' answer, on the answer as perceived by an educated inhabitant of the Warhammer world.

In real terms, as described in Hordes of Chaos, all gods are but aspects of the four Great Powers. Think of four overlapping circles within a larger circle. The large circle is Chaos, or what we refer to in the rules as Chaos Undivided. Within that are the four Great Powers. Where they overlap, there are concurrent and conflicting entities which bear portions of the vague consciousness of the Great Powers. Any lesser god will be a dot or smaller circle overlapping the diagram across the relevant Greater Powers. The example of the Horned Rat is a good one, as it is obviously dominated by Nurgle, but does have elements of Tzeentch in there as well.

If you are talking about perceptions of the inhabitants, then they are unaware of the above (or driven mad by it if they find out!). They are aware that there is a large pantheon of gods, includig the four Great Powers. To them, each is distinct, although some may have different names for the same gods Ð for example, the marauder peoples have many different names for the Great Powers, and some may even have several names for the same Great Power.

GAV
i don't find it a better explantion than the others... but i do find it more official...

Outcast995
23-08-2005, 16:36
answer: the over lapping emotional theory applies to most gods but their are a few exceptions

Lizardmen: techinically most of their gods are old ones who have gone or died

Tomb kings: Dont know what their god are but they where invented before cause came thuse cant be imbodment of cause(pressumed to be old ones to)

their might be a few others but i only know alot about half of warhammers major religons.

metro_gnome
23-08-2005, 17:12
well i wouldnt be so sure...

wouldn't belief in these gods... lizard and tomb king... create a place for them amongst the panthenon of other gods in the warhammer world...

as sigmar became a god by belief in him... so too did sotek become a god long after he died or left or whatever...

ryng_sting
23-08-2005, 20:16
Sotek is the only Lizardman god to have existed post-polar catastrophe. The suggestion is that he's the manifestation of Lizardmen vengeance and anger, and desire to defend their homeland. Sigmar generated his own godhood; belief merely fuelled its rise. Once a god enters the aethyr, the abode of gods, they're setting up shop in the gaps occupied by the big four, regardless of how they got there. This includes Sigmar.

RobC
23-08-2005, 22:22
There are no gaps between the big four, technically speaking. It's just that the lesser gods offer a more focused aspect on an emotion or belief. And thus they are much less powerful.

Konrad_Curze II
24-08-2005, 01:01
I don't think any of the Chaos Gods have hang-ups about killing their own followers, or cursing them, or inflicting dubious 'gifts' on them. They're the Chaos Gods, the Dark Powers, a bunch of capricious gits if there ever was any.

just ask belakor what he got from them?

tzeentch for a laugh cursed him for all eternity...and he was the first everchosen of chaos!!!

Eldacar
24-08-2005, 07:07
just ask belakor what he got from them?

tzeentch for a laugh cursed him for all eternity...and he was the first everchosen of chaos!!!
Erm, no, he wasn't. He was the first Daemon Prince of Chaos, AFAIK, not the first Everchosen.

Actually, I thought Archaon was the Everchosen, and all the others were just precursors to him for a while.

shadowprince
24-08-2005, 07:14
So does this mean the elf gods like Isha Kuronous and Khain are minor aspects of chaos, becuase they where here long before the first incursian of chaos, and all the embodiments of isha are orderly

Eldacar
24-08-2005, 07:47
Yes. More detail, as given in a post on Asur.org by Arquinsiel:


As per 1st ed WHFRP all dieties are merely strong chaos daemons. They are not "representations of emotional states of sentient beings" as has been suggested but instead a life force created of pure chaos (henceforth refered to as a daemon) which can be influenced to a degree by mortals who put the effort in. As such, the potential for overlaping but essentially different and seperate entities is extremely high, probability pointing to an exponential number of them taking similar but minutely different forms (can anyone say "lesser daemon"?). This also explains the need for ritual that all dieties require, their very identity is re-inforced by being told over and over again by thousands of mortals what they are (and ends up giving them a huge head).

In this understanding of things the Elven gods are daemons which were bound into the service of the elven race by powerful mages during the golden age before the collapse of the polar warpgates (also from 1st ed WHFRP). As such, it is reasonable to assume that the entities bound by the elven mages to help the elven people are not those which have historically tried to destroy them.

However, should it become the prevalent belief that Khorne and Khaine are the same thing amongst their respective worshipers then the two entities will find themselves becoming increasingly similar to the point of being nearly identical. They will however retain some minor differences but these will be trivial in nature and mostly minor flukes in probability.

In a similar vein, mortals who become diefied are not simply "good" dieties removed from chaos, they instead become daemons of the paticular moral or ethical absolute their worshippers see them. This is known to us already, and is where daemon princes come from (Sigmar, for example, is likely to be a daemon prince of Law).

The same case for a multi-aspected diety may be made for the Great Harlequin and Loec, the previous two and Lileath, Liadriel and Adamnan-na-Brionha, Liadriel and Slaanesh, Morai-Heg and Slaanesh, Morr and Morai-Heg, Hoeth and Slaanesh, Hoeth and Tzeentch, Vaul and Hashut, Shayalla and Isha and pretty much every diety out there.

ryng_sting
24-08-2005, 18:33
Erm, no, he wasn't. He was the first Daemon Prince of Chaos, AFAIK, not the first Everchosen.

Actually, I thought Archaon was the Everchosen, and all the others were just precursors to him for a while.

'Everchosen' is the moniker given to all those who bear the Mark, pass the Trials, and receive the Crown from Be'lakor as a result. Four of Archaon's five predecessors managed it; the fifth, (Khaardun the Gloried) was supposed to have been the Everchosen during his age of the world, but was stopped by Be'lakor's interference.

Tastyfish
24-08-2005, 19:29
Aren't the Horned Rat and the Maw exceptions as well being not actually in the realm of chaos but warpstone meteors/fragments? Not sure what happens in these cases as its debatable as to how linked warpstone is too the realm of chaos (is it little windows or oil in water - once part of it but now seperate from the main body and the world they are in)

shadowprince
25-08-2005, 03:00
To me this really seems like awful fluff, That chaos is the end all, and that all supposedly good gods serve the evil four. it really makes it seem like GW is playing to their favorite Chaos even more, so their is know great after life, so no matter what you do in life everone is destined to hell, But the thing is Ulric, sounds like a stand alone god.

Eldacar
25-08-2005, 03:09
To me this really seems like awful fluff, That chaos is the end all, and that all supposedly good gods serve the evil four.
They aren't. All gods are Warp Entities. However, Sigmar, for example, would be more like a Daemon Prince of Law than one of Chaos.


But the thing is Ulric, sounds like a stand alone god.
He isn't. His circle overlaps the circle of Khorne, so he isn't stand-alone, but nor is he subservient to the Chaos Gods.

It's kind of hard to explain (at least, it is for me).

shadowprince
25-08-2005, 05:26
lol you aint kidding, personally I like the way the god panthepns work in Forgotten realms much better

Tastyfish
25-08-2005, 10:45
Why Ulric? Hes pretty much just a barbarian war god, now Khaine from the Druchii point of view could be a stand alone god (as with their interpretation he is spread over most of the chaos regions).

There is no afterlife at all really, when you die you cease to exist and the remains of your soul based on how you lived go to whichever region of the warp is most similar. Or if you are a particularly devout person you become one with your god. LC mentions that the Gods are heavens and hells as well as entities.

RobC
25-08-2005, 19:53
It's the Warhammer mythos. It might be a grim existance while you live, but it is nothing in comparison to how grim it gets once you die. And were Chaos to succeed and envelop the world.... agh.

Tormentor of Slaanesh
25-08-2005, 21:23
dwarf gods are just ancient dwarfs that were seen as the pinicle of dwarfism and so are now worshiped, no chaos.
has anyone brought up the whole is khaine khorne question?

Arnizipal
25-08-2005, 22:05
dwarf gods are just ancient dwarfs that were seen as the pinicle of dwarfism and so are now worshiped, no chaos.

As they are being worshipped by the Dwarfs, the likeness of this worship is born in the Warp. They're nothing different from any other Warhammer deity.

Lord Lucifer
26-08-2005, 05:27
Chaos is not entirely evil. It's reactive to emotional states.

Chaos is magic, emotion, spirit, soul, change, time, life and death. Chaos is a great many things, Chaos is almost all.


Chaos isn't inherently evil. Sigmar, technically, is part of Chaos. Sigmar is good, therefore Chaos is capable of good


The basis of chaos is the spirit, the soul, and the emotions.
The closest conscious point to this, is the four Greater Powers.
If you do not worship a specific God, every emotion and every feeling feeds on of the four Greater Powers. Anger, rage, frustration feed Khorne. Hopelessness, reservation, apathy and acceptance feed Nurgle. Pleasure, sensation, titilation, exhileration and excitement feed Slaanesh. Plotting, politicking, and the desire to change all feed Tzeentch

Now, still, not inherently evil. In fact, quite beyond human morality. Chaos is, in a way, a natural force.
To worry that 'Chaos will win ultimately because everything is it' is a little misled, because if Sigmar wins, SIGMAR wins, even if Sigmar is chaos.
This is not necessarily a bad thing, because Chaos is, as I mentioned, the spirit, the soul, time and change. All things necessary for life and existence.


Chaos winning, and those silly blokes in the spiky armour winning, are two entirely seperate things.
Chaos the essence and wide-reaching concept, and chaos the bit that's focussed on an annoyingly arrogant faction of psychopaths, are related BUT DISTINCT FROM EACH OTHER.
Need to make that point abundantly clear.


Now, how Chaos manifests in the real world is entirely up to the people who draw upon it.
A priest of Sigmar or Shallya will call upon Chaos to heal and to do good, embolden the hearts of good men etc.
This way, Chaos manifesting is good.
However, the base emotions of Chaos are an easy route to power, because you don't have to consciously restrict yourself or be careful about the application. Think of the Greater Powers as 'crude oil' of divine power, a plentiful source but completely untreated (whereas the civilised pantheons are filtered and treated, losing a lot of what they're made of but being infinately safer and better for you). Many uncaring people, in their greed and desire for power, will call upon the power of Chaos for their personal gain rather than any altruistic reasons. This is, to say the least, fairly common. As such, a LOT of evil is worked through Chaos. Furthermore, as the Gods reflect the emotions of those who worship them, to a degree, the Great Four are every inch as greedy and ambitious as those who serve them, and feed strongly off the negative emotions that cause people to turn to such dangerous means of power for succour or salvation.


Now, the REAL threat posed by Chaos is the manner in which it flows into the Warhammer world, which is through the corrupted and collapsed Warp Gates. It flows unchecked into the real world, and the sudden contact with crude Chaos material is extremely detrimental to the material plane, mutating the land, destroying it utterly, and slowly killing the planet like a malevolent cancer.
THIS is the true danger of Chaos (that and the seduction of raw power with no moral guidelines to keep it in check).


Now, the Warhammer world, the setting, is a desperate struggle against Chaos, in two linked fronts.
Firstly, the negative effect on society that evil men have, who turn to Chaos to overthrow it or subvert it (the society) by some means.
Chaos is a danger in their hands, as they use it with cruelty to destabalise the world and bring their own gain at the cost of others.
Their success strengthens the hold that Chaos has on the world, meaning the flow of corruption from the warp gates spreads further and taints the land to a greater degree.
The success of the worshippers of the crude Chaos Gods will coincide with the destruction of the world.
The problem is everyone is at each others throats and cannot trust themselves to stand decisively against Chaos (long history there, but it's an interesting subject, I might get into it later)

Back to Chaos...
Chaos itself is simply emotion. The four greater powers are, for the most part, reflections of emotion
They are not subject to moral questioning, they are living entities of pure emotion.
Rage, anger, ferocity, desire, lust, determination and change, and acceptance, are all base emotions. You will see them in an animal, and you will not deem it 'evil' because it is merely exhibiting animal instincts. An animal is incapable of morality, the concept is beyond them. Likewise the beings of these emotions, the Grear four, are beyond the concept of morality itself.

The other Gods are constructs of emotion in light of morality and are therefore appropriate to apply morality to.

All Gods are formed of the same stuff, one soup of contents contains within it ALL gods who intermingle freely.
Ulric's toe both is, and is not, Khorne's toe.




I know next to none of that made sense but hopefully something lucid was misread within it that makes sense...

shadowprince
26-08-2005, 05:42
Still don't like it

Eldacar
26-08-2005, 07:10
Nice explanation, Lucifer. You're better at explaining it than I am, that's for sure.

And shadowprince, well, the phrase that comes to mind is "tough luck", because that's how the Warhammer world is set up. It isn't some cheap copy of D&D.

ryng_sting
26-08-2005, 17:50
dwarf gods are just ancient dwarfs that were seen as the pinicle of dwarfism and so are now worshiped, no chaos.
has anyone brought up the whole is khaine khorne question?

The rough consensus, as far as I can tell, is that Khaine came first, as he was formed solely from Elven psychic stock, but Khorne, being formed of similar stuff but from all other races, outgrew Khaine, who became subordinate to Khorne in size and power. Khaine became an aspect of Khorne, though one with independent thought and motivations.

The dwarf gods, it would seem, gained their godhood in a similar way to Sigmar. They were incredibly unique, potent members of their race who entered the aethyr, where they expanded to reach their full godhood, and continue to do so.

Those are my two cents, anyway. I naturally defer to MvS.

metro_gnome
26-08-2005, 22:09
well i wouldn't say they actually enetered aether...
more that the idea or concept of them became real within chaos when they began to be worshipped...
Sigmar was a man and Sigmar is dead... but because there is worship of him... a place was created for what he represents within Chaos... the emotion probably always existed... but as it was given a shape and a name and a way of teaching others about him... belief in him spread... and he became a god in his own right... should he make himself visible he would appear as Sigmar... not because he is actaully the man who was Sigmar... but more because he has been shaped by those who believe in him...
this would be true of all of the mortals turned god...

Vomax
27-08-2005, 05:58
It seems like part of the problem with people misunderstanding the way the Warhammer pantheon works is that Chaos, the dimension, shares the same name as Chaos, the spiky guys. Chaos most definitely worships Chaos, but Chaos is not representative of all that is Chaos. Makes sense, eh?

I certainly appreciate the kind of "scientific" approach GW has taken towards explaining divinity in Warhammer. Someone who is more of a fantasy purist, however, might find the reasoning and explanations a bit muddied.

Lord Lucifer
27-08-2005, 07:20
Nice explanation, Lucifer. You're better at explaining it than I am, that's for sure.

And shadowprince, well, the phrase that comes to mind is "tough luck", because that's how the Warhammer world is set up. It isn't some cheap copy of D&D.
Nah, I just throw more words at the explanation :p


I really love the sheer amount of detail and uniqueness of the Warhammer divinity system.
A lot of people really hate it unless the distinction between the mortal faction of Chaos, and the essence that is 'Chaos', is made clear
It would be easier to simply call it The Spirit Realm, but it's truer to actually call it The Realm of Chaos, as misleading as that could be considered (although really it isn't... it's just there's more to it than the basic association)

Neknoh
27-08-2005, 08:25
The rough consensus, as far as I can tell, is that Khaine came first

I may have to disagree with you, the realm of Chaos has always existed, and the Dark Four has existed since there came living things into the world, i.e. the race of the Dragon Ogres existed long before the Old Ones came, and, the Old Ones brought more emotions into the world, and, they did wield magic, they tought the elves and the first of the Slann to do it.

It was first after the gates collapsed that Chaos seeped into the world in huge ammounts, but, it has always been there, long before the world was created and will exist long after it has been destroyed.

However, the Dark Four will not, since, if there are no emotions left, they will simply fade away, but, if there are Daemonprinces left after the world has been destroyed, the battles of the Dark Four will continue long after all mortal life is gone.
And it is not entirely impossible that the very own emotions of the Dark Four in the end will be enough to sustain them, they might or might not exist for all eternety.

But, Chaos WILL!

feintstar
30-08-2005, 02:36
So you guys are looking at chaos the same way as the 40K people see the warp - a realm where the possibilites of the souls of beings are made manifest.

Lord Lucifer, in particular is quite eloquent in his descriptions, showing that the gods are subsets of one another, all linked to emotional basis.

while i certainly agreee with what is being said about the nature of chaos, i have to say that there are forces that plague the deepest aspect of the human (and all sentients') soul that are NOT REPRESENTED by the Chaos pantheon as it stands.

This is why the micheal moorcock books upon which the WH world was based are also loaded with the gods of Law.

If all things of the mind are represented basely in the realm of chaos, then the need for order is certainly one of them. You get it? Order must be an aspect of Chaos, and vice versa. So the wording again becomes a little daft.

And what about altrusim? Altruism can be seen in dogs, even cats, and has just as much a force in this world as fear and hatred does, its just that it is harder to see. If we weren't inherantly altrusitic to a reasonable extent, on an amotional level, we would be unable to live in structured societies, with friends or family. Care must be an aspect of Chaos.

So what I'm saying is that there are gods missing, and that the traditional gods of the elven pantheon etc have parts of these included as well, which the dark 4 are no part of.

I'd just like to see these guys given a little more credit in fluff. though I know there won't be a chaos army of bambi, the deamon prince of altruism. (thank god... ?)Perhaps they are hanging around with their folowers in realms of total order at the South Pole of the Warhammer world. :)

Lord Lucifer
30-08-2005, 03:32
So you guys are looking at chaos the same way as the 40K people see the warp - a realm where the possibilites of the souls of beings are made manifest.

Lord Lucifer, in particular is quite eloquent in his descriptions, showing that the gods are subsets of one another, all linked to emotional basis.
Shucks :p


while i certainly agreee with what is being said about the nature of chaos, i have to say that there are forces that plague the deepest aspect of the human (and all sentients') soul that are NOT REPRESENTED by the Chaos pantheon as it stands.

This is why the micheal moorcock books upon which the WH world was based are also loaded with the gods of Law.
We had the Gods of Law, such as Solkan the Avenger etc. but, well, worship of them wasn't entirely widespread, and it did lend itself to the rather 2-dimensional black&white feel of D&D, a universally opposed Us And Them thing, whereas I prefer the way the warhammer setting aims more towards an every-man-for-himself state of "We're all equally screwed"


If all things of the mind are represented basely in the realm of chaos, then the need for order is certainly one of them. You get it? Order must be an aspect of Chaos, and vice versa. So the wording again becomes a little daft.

And what about altrusim? Altruism can be seen in dogs, even cats, and has just as much a force in this world as fear and hatred does, its just that it is harder to see. If we weren't inherantly altrusitic to a reasonable extent, on an amotional level, we would be unable to live in structured societies, with friends or family. Care must be an aspect of Chaos.
Shallya and Isha, of the Human and Elven pantheons respectively, are very much altruistic. And very much Chaos Gods, just not part of the Big Four.
Sigmar himself is a rather altruistic deity, being the great protector.
Which ties also to Tzeentch, the architect of fate, the great conspirator, patron of the mage and the politician. He is at least partially representative of the desire to work towards a goal and to work with people, even if those most directly in his service are selfish and personally ambitious


So what I'm saying is that there are gods missing, and that the traditional gods of the elven pantheon etc have parts of these included as well, which the dark 4 are no part of.

I'd just like to see these guys given a little more credit in fluff. though I know there won't be a chaos army of bambi, the deamon prince of altruism. (thank god... ?)Perhaps they are hanging around with their folowers in realms of total order at the South Pole of the Warhammer world. :)
There are countless Gods of Chaos, but their worship is far from widespread, or in fact are non-existant, on the world in which the game is set


I still feel that the Great Powers do represent all emotions on the most basic and crude of levels.
Complex ideas are formed on the bases of these greater emotions and thus more complex Gods are formed on the basis of these greater powers.

shadowprince
30-08-2005, 06:19
Sorry if you read D&D it is far from black and white.

Mikko Leho
30-08-2005, 06:55
Sorry if you read D&D it is far from black and white.

Nope, it is 3 times 3 (lawful evil, neutral good and bunch of other remnants, that should have been erased from roleplaying games since the early 80's)

Eldacar
30-08-2005, 08:18
Sorry if you read D&D it is far from black and white.
Not true. You've got good, you've got neutral, and you've got evil (with three subdivisions within those). Warhammer, on the other hand, is completely grey.

RobC
30-08-2005, 13:19
The strongest, most primal emotions are those that became dominant in the warp. The lesser emotions, and especially those that derive from will rather than id, are much less powerful. This is why the Warp is deeply unbalanced, in comparison to Moorcock's multiverse.

Lord Lucifer
30-08-2005, 16:02
Sorry if you read D&D it is far from black and white.
Law and Chaos are completely opposed in D&D, and Good and Evil are completely opposed, and people are one thing or the other.
People are DEFINED absolutely by this. You are Chaotic Good, you oppose order and evil. Whereas in WFRP it's a little bit more like "You are Kleinz, you are a highwayman that steals from well-to-do travellers, you oppose starving. You help a mendicant being assaulted by a pair of goblins. You later punch a bar patron for looking at you funny"

The Gods in D&D are finite and corporeal and solid and can be killed by conventional (if extraordinary) means.
There are Gods of Law, that are strict. Gods of Good who do only Good, and Gods of Evil who do only Evil.
Entire races are classed as Good or Evil with no real look at underlying motivations and personal goals.


In WFRP, the Gods are beyond moral judgement. They do as they do.
They are at least partially a gestalt psychic or emotional resonance of all that worship and/or believe in them. They are formless and made of the same stuff as each other, inhabit the same substance, coexist within the same space. Although they lack a real body you could say they share this nonexistant body, despite having distinct personalities
They are capable of both good AND evil, as are those that serve them.


There's a definate quote in the WFRP book that actually covers this quite well:

There are worlds where courageous heroes who stand for all that is good and righteous watch over populaces of decent folk who seek to enrich their own lives and better those of the people around them.

This isn't one of those worlds.

The Old World is one of blood, pain, sacrifice, treachery, deceit, and malice. Many of the Empire's "heroes" are dangerous rogues and blood spattered butchers. The people of the Old World are suspiscious and insular, swift to believe the worst of others and slow to trust, often with good reason. Corruption is the rule, honesty the exception. Those few bright souls who still manage to accomplish truly heroic tasks frequently have to act under cover of darkness, lest they be accused of being in league with the very forces they try to combat.


I guess what I'm trying to say is in D&D everything is clearly defined and has it's place. Good exists so that it can fight evil, and vice versa.
In the Warhammer setting, everything just exists, there's no reason for it, it's just there and trying to make the most of it.

Piet
30-08-2005, 16:32
so basicly if i lived in the warhammer world and i want to weaken tzeench i only have to make up a new god (for example Urgll the god of al honest politicians) and find enough followers, who wil project there hope for change on Urgll. and thereby Urgll will start to exist in the warp, and thereby weakening Tzeench because the raw emontion where tzeench exists of will start to fall more and more in the realm of Urgll. Or will Urgll be another aspect/name for Tzeench and am i inderctly worshipping Tzeench?

and where does Malal fits in this picuture? of which emotions is he made of?

Venkh
30-08-2005, 17:09
IMO what you describe is a plot vs Tzeentch, the very thing that he thrives upon. It would be like trying to poison Nurgle or Bring Khorne to honourable battle.

Malal no longer exists but i always felt that he represented the outcast and his desire to destroy that which he cannot rule. Perhaps Envy.

Shame he is gone, i really liked the idea of something the other chaos powers actually feared.

Piet
30-08-2005, 17:42
IMO what you describe is a plot vs Tzeentch, the very thing that he thrives upon. It would be like trying to poison Nurgle or Bring Khorne to honourable battle.


but Tzeentch may be the changer of ways, he can't change the laws of the warhammer universe. so would my god come into existence? and would Tzeentch become weaker?

RobC
30-08-2005, 22:43
No. It's the unconscious desires and emotions of the mortal creatures that create the gods. You cannot synthesize a god.

Lord Lucifer
31-08-2005, 03:41
so basicly if i lived in the warhammer world and i want to weaken tzeench i only have to make up a new god (for example Urgll the god of al honest politicians) and find enough followers, who wil project there hope for change on Urgll. and thereby Urgll will start to exist in the warp, and thereby weakening Tzeench because the raw emontion where tzeench exists of will start to fall more and more in the realm of Urgll. Or will Urgll be another aspect/name for Tzeench and am i inderctly worshipping Tzeench?

and where does Malal fits in this picuture? of which emotions is he made of?
Firstly, no. Worshipping your new god Urgll would make Urgll stronger, but it won't make Tzeentch weaker. And you would have to BELIEVE in Urgll, you can't cynically create him and destroy a god by logic.


Secondly, if Urgll and Tzeentch are practically, you run into two problems. One point is if you somehow managed to replace Tzeentch with Urgll, you've got Tzeentch-by-proxy.
Another is you can worship the same god by a different name. Many of the marauder tribes know of their patron deity by names that others are unfamiliar with. If Urgll and Tzeentch are identical, you're actually worshipping Tzeentch, just under a different name.
Same as those who worship Ulric in the Empire, are worshipping the same god as the Norse who observe Olric as their deity. Same god, (slightly) different name.

feintstar
31-08-2005, 05:16
@ Lord Lucifer:

I think we tend to agree on the majority of issues but have an ideological divide in terms of the nature of man and his basic emotional drives. You feel that humans are ultimately selfish, and therefore their darkest desires are at the heart of all their works. Thus, the Big 4 are at the heart of all the more civilised deities. (are you a capitalist, by any chance? :))

I on the other hand, am working from the premise that not all human action can be explained by reduction to darker, baser forces, and that equally powerful "light" forces must exist to counteract them, which guide some of the deep seated "light" emotions that also guide our actions. These light forces, together with dark forces co-mingle to thus acheive the tapestry of more complex Gods.

I suppose find it rather cynical and demeaning to degrade all selfless works to the machinations of Tzeentch. :P

And I find that (for me) pure selfishness alone (in its many guises) does not satisfactorily explain the emotions of man, conscious and unconscious alike.

Therefore I would surmise that the elder gods of law that were ruthlessly crushed by earlier distancing from Micheal Moorcock should be in some way re-instated.

I feel that Sotek and Sigmar (likely the same dude) both arise from a combo of Tzeentch, Khorne, and the hypothetical other protective, altrusitic god. This places sotek as counter to Khorne, while being part of it - otherwise, sigmar would never stand to protect and self sacrifice against the god of war.

Isha, on the other hand, would be comprised almost entirely of this Altruistic force. Plus throw in some nature spirit that may be reducible to an aspect of Tzeentch, and maybe a wee bit of Slaanesh. Such is the nature of her power that she once ruled all of peaceful Ulthuan. Only once the destroyers came with the dark aspects of their souls exposed did Asuryan come to the fore, and only then did the elves stand a chance in war. Nevertheless, there is some aspect that sets Asuryan alongside Isha, and against the big four.

To take your quote from the previous page, "Those few bright souls who still manage to accomplish truly heroic tasks frequently have to act under cover of darkness, lest they be accused of being in league with the very forces they try to combat." this proves that there ARE bright souls, however few, which are not "dangerous rogues and blood spattered butchers" and are therefore representatives of something else, i.e. Not "the very forces they try to combat."

Lord Lucifer
01-09-2005, 02:01
Feintstar, I think you may have misunderstood me to a degree.
I did not intend to portray all of human nature as inherantly selfish. I meant (and thought? I had stated?) that those who worship Chaos directly (the 'Big Four' and Undivided) are often selfish and power-hungry.
Worship of the more complex Gods (of the human, elven, dwarven etc. pantheons) will not grant as extraordinary powers, and is a much harder road to power, but it's a hell of a lot safer.
Those that worship the base Gods are attempting to channel unrefined power. Direct worship of Chaos is dangerous, it is risky, it always has a detrimental effect on the living as they are not meant to hold such power, and it invariably leads to damnation. However, it's the quickest route, the path of least resistance. If one of the Great Four choose you, you are propelled quickly to unimaginable levels of power.

This tends to attract the worst sort of people.
The people who are comfortable with the risks, or for those unaware of them, those that seek the most power by the most immediate and direct route, are often self-serving and disdainful of others.


Not all humans, but those that worship Chaos in its base forms are often selfish and cruel.


I think we tend to agree on the majority of issues but have an ideological divide in terms of the nature of man and his basic emotional drives. You feel that humans are ultimately selfish, and therefore their darkest desires are at the heart of all their works. Thus, the Big 4 are at the heart of all the more civilised deities. (are you a capitalist, by any chance? :))
Emotion is at the heart of all divinity in the Warhammer setting.
The Realm of Chaos/Aether/Spirit Realm/whatever is the expanse of all emotion.
The 'Big Four' are the closest to this base level of emotion. They are the most crude, basic Gods, the ones with the closest and most direct links to emotion (you'll notice that the Chaos Gods are all gods of specific emotional states, whereas the other Gods are Gods of concepts that have a base of emotion)
They aren't at the heart of the more civilised deities, they are merely closer to base emotion than the complex deities, and between them encompass all the realm of Chaos, with a much broader domain (whilst the complex Gods, by definition, are more specific)

The Big Four are not necessarily evil, as I've stated I think. They are beyond morality as they are the reflections of emotion.
However, they are near always invoked to evil ends, and their manifestation reflects the will of their followers to quite some degree.


I on the other hand, am working from the premise that not all human action can be explained by reduction to darker, baser forces, and that equally powerful "light" forces must exist to counteract them, which guide some of the deep seated "light" emotions that also guide our actions. These light forces, together with dark forces co-mingle to thus acheive the tapestry of more complex Gods.

I suppose find it rather cynical and demeaning to degrade all selfless works to the machinations of Tzeentch. :P
Firstly, 'base forces' and 'base motivation' are not necessarily darker, evil, or immoral.
They go hand-in-glove with morality.

Now, to look at a specific example.
Lust. Children are the future of any race, family, nation. In order to have children, you must have sexual intercourse to conceive the child. Intercourse is impossible without arousal and lust, and it's lust that ensures that the species continues and propogates. Attraction and love are closely related, and these are good things.
However, when lust us used against the will of another, this becomes a bad thing. However lust is not the bad thing itself, it is the base of both good and bad things. Fertility gods are good, whereas many manifestations of Slaanesh are bad (lust used for ill)


And I find it cynical to degrade all of Tzeentch's domain to machinations.
As the most direct representation of politicking, and presumably to all social interaction and relationships, altruism could easily fall into his domain. Indeed, Tzeentch's actions often seem contrary to the darker will of the Big Four and even his own scheming.



And I find that (for me) pure selfishness alone (in its many guises) does not satisfactorily explain the emotions of man, conscious and unconscious alike.
Selfish is a moral concept that follows emotion, it does not create it.
Self preservation is important, and is not selfish.
Fear keeps you alive, lust allows your people to continue (survival of the broader you, the you consisting of you yourself and the people like you... if we seperate our sense of self and theory of mind from our thinking for a minute it makes sense...), anger gives you the determination to do things you'd normally be incapable of, and the desire to kill that is necessary for those who eat meat, affection allows you to build the support network to help survival (strength in numbers, and in fact a form of genetic altruism of the species is seen as a valid survival instinct recognised by darwinist theories lately... just watch the beginning of 2001: A Space Oddysey :D) etc.

Self preservation is not a bad thing. Dead people can't help others.



I feel that Sotek and Sigmar (likely the same dude) both arise from a combo of Tzeentch, Khorne, and the hypothetical other protective, altrusitic god. This places sotek as counter to Khorne, while being part of it - otherwise, sigmar would never stand to protect and self sacrifice against the god of war.
Altruism (and selfishness) is something that applies to people, not Gods.
Followers of any God are capable of altruism (even altruism that leads to the detriment of others rather than the betterment of others, as has been seen in the real world with so many disasterous revolutions that made matters worse), just as followers of any God are capable of selfish or evil acts.
The Priesthood of Sigmar kill children with birth defects, believing them to be tainted. Many, undoubtedly, are not. Living conditions in the Old World are far from perfect, after all. This is an evil act commited by priests of what we would consider 'good' gods.

Which leads me to believe that the gods, just as the people, are not inherently Good or Evil, but are rather beings capable of both Good and Evil.


To take your quote from the previous page... this proves that there ARE bright souls, however few, which are not... and are therefore representatives of something else, i.e. Not "the very forces they try to combat."
I believe the point that the quote was trying to make is that, unlike in D&D and other game-worlds, in Warhammer nothing is wholly good or wholly evil, and that the struggle is not between good and evil but rather for survival in and of itself.
People are flawed, even saints. This is what makes the warhammer background so great, the fact that it's not so clear-cut, it is far more realistic in my eyes that peoples actions are determined with personal reasons rather than some arbitrary and binding moral alignment that precludes all acts to the contrary



Sorry if I was misleading... and that goes for this post too :D

feintstar
01-09-2005, 06:58
Hmmm. Interesting.

I think in some way you have micunderstood me to a degree also. I wasn't attempting to make moral judgements of the gods - you are correct in that they are aspects of human emotion and therefore above morality. It is interesting, however, that you consider it to be the people who support the gods and not the gods themselves who are at fault.

I suppose, I can cut it really short, given a slightly better idea of where you're coming from, my point boils down to:

Altruism is an emotive force as deep as any other expressed by man. It cannot be reduced to lust, war, decay or manipulative change. As such it would have a powerful warp/empyreal representative who is not a subset of any of the big 4. It is a seperate force, and should be represented as such. It should be a seperate god, who gives the altruistic aspect to the lesser, civilised subset gods that strive against chaos.

Note, I am still attempting not to make any of the above good or evil. Though by most measuring sticks, War vs Altruism has a moral divide - the measuring stick is in our hands however, and as you eloquently point out, war/anger is not always such an awful thing, nor is altruism always a good thing.

One thing though. You said that things are far from perfect in the old world.

I live in Ulthuan. :) Things would be perfect if not for the chaos gods :D

Lord Lucifer
01-09-2005, 11:24
All my quotes and emphasizing text aren't fitting in proper, so I'll be quoting with " marks "

You said: "I think in some way you have micunderstood me to a degree also"
It's always possible :)

"It is interesting, however, that you consider it to be the people who support the gods and not the gods themselves who are at fault."
I believe it is the worshippers that shape the Gods with their belief.
If the Gods are simply, or were originally, mere sympathetic resonance of emotion from living beings, something would've had to have given the Gods the spark of sentience in the first place.
We already know for certain that the form of the Gods are a direct reflection of how people see the God.
I believe the Gods developed in symbiosis with their believers. The mannerisms of the gods are defined essentially by the way their believers associate them to certain aspects.
Ulric is the North God of Winter. He is stern, fierce, and sharp much like Winter is, and that marks the personality of a warrior. Stern and fierce. Manaan/Stromfels is known for a mercurial temperment that switches quickly between calm, and violent, much like the seas. Manaan is the Sea God, the sea can change from dead calm to a raging maelstrom incredibly quickly, so the association is made and thus the sea deity has a personality.


The Big Four are routes to quick power, unrestrained and dangerous power. This appeals to greed and covetuousness. The four Greater Powers constantly strive against each other for supremacy, and seemingly want only to expand and grow. This is a natural desire, survival instinct if you will. It's a base instinct. It underlies everything, and thus it underlies the most direct relations to pure emotion.
Thus chaos appeals to the greedy, and the greedy appeal to chaos
However, not all that is done in Chaos' name is ill, only the majority ('only' the majority :p), and Chaos (the Big Four in particular) itself is only a force that seeks to further itself. But it manifests in the real world by the way people use it, and by the flow from the Polar Gates.
Most people use it for their personal gain, at the loss of those around them.
The raw magic that flows from the Polar Gates is anathema to the largely ordered nature of the physical world.

So in two ways it works great ill in the world, but it is not the intention of Chaos itself to work ill.


Or at least that would be my take on it


Just a final point to further the argument of Gods being shaped by their worshippers... the Elven god Khaine.
In Naggaroth he works evil. In Ulthuan, he is used for self defence and securing the endeavours of the Asur. Khaine isn't Khorne, it is an Elven God, but there is a perversion in how it manifests to the Druchii compared to how it manifests to the Asur. Not a great difference either side of the supposed/mythological 'true nature' to be sure, but enough to convey an almost opposed nature between the two forms.


"Altruism is an emotive force as deep as any other expressed by man. It cannot be reduced to lust, war, decay or manipulative change. As such it would have a powerful warp/empyreal representative who is not a subset of any of the big 4. It is a seperate force, and should be represented as such. It should be a seperate god, who gives the altruistic aspect to the lesser, civilised subset gods that strive against chaos."
To me altruism is more a direction for emotions than an emotion itself.
Altruism can be affection at the expense of your person, whilst covetousness can be affection at the expense of others, if you catch my meaning here



Now I admit I make a lot of supposition here, and base a lot on conjecture, but I feel that's probably the intent of the background, to give you a wealth of detail to understand the world well... and at the same time give you yet more questions to answer yourself :)


Now tell me this level of socio-theological debate happens in the D&D settings, I dare ya :p

Nargrakhan
02-09-2005, 08:49
Question: How is the Great Horned Rat a Chaos God if he doesn't support Chaos per se? (I'm recalling this from memory, but didn't the 5th edition classify him as a lesser Chaos power).

The Skaven have their own rules and order; intricate civilization and technological progression. They perform warpstone experiments and whatnot, but they apply it with measured research and expectations. In some ways, the Skaven are MORE civilized than Dwarves, Elves, and Humans. I also understand that Skaven have stronger immunity to mutations than humans.

Just because the Horned Rat can create "daemons" shouldn't instantly classify him as a Chaos god IMHO.

Isn't the Skaven god no different from that of other races?

RobC
02-09-2005, 11:29
A fair question. My immediate response would be that Skaven as a race are born of Chaos, and their society has a habit of falling apart every time they try to do anything; therefore they are somewhat Chaotic in temperament and if the Skaven eventually conquered the surface world, their cohesion would collapse as they'd have no common purpose or enemy.

Admittedly, this argument doesn't stand up if you compare the Horned Rat to the big four directly. The normal Chaotic path to power just doesn't seem to exist in Skaven society, suggesting that if he is a Chaos god (and not just in the 'all gods are from the Warp' sense) then he's a minor one without the sheer level of power that guides the usual suspects.

I suppose it's very possible to have a minor Chaos god without the usual path to damnation. It's just not what we associate with a Chaos god.

Lord Lucifer
02-09-2005, 14:42
Well, he's a very specific Chaos God, he's the God of Skaven and that's about exclusively it. The 'big four' are very broad, not as intensely focussed on a single race like The Horned Rat or Hashut the Father of Darkness.

They are related, or associated, in some way with the four Greater Powers though, as the connection has been stated as categorical fact in the background. Even if that matter rarely takes centre stage in the discussion of them, it is no less true

Mikko Leho
02-09-2005, 15:53
The Skaven have their own rules and order; intricate civilization and technological progression. They perform warpstone experiments and whatnot, but they apply it with measured research and expectations. In some ways, the Skaven are MORE civilized than Dwarves, Elves, and Humans.

According to the 'The Loathsome Ratmen and All Their Vile Kin':

"At heart, like the rats they resemble, the Skaven are scavengers, content to live on the detritus of the more noble civilizations above them. And that they are able to make any of their devices work at all perhaps speaks as loudly of the unholy motive powers of warpstone as it does to any special genius of the Skaven mind."

The ability to throw endless amounts of speciments or victims to any particular "scientific" experiment is not a sign of careful planning or organized research. The chaotic manner of Skaven research is only amplified by their use of warp stone as the basis of different apparatus.

Nargrakhan
05-09-2005, 06:42
The ability to throw endless amounts of speciments or victims to any particular "scientific" experiment is not a sign of careful planning or organized research. The chaotic manner of Skaven research is only amplified by their use of warp stone as the basis of different apparatus.

I'm gonna have to argue that point. Even in light of me not being a true Skaven follower, I can see there's logical planning (if only simplistic and small) that applies in Skaven "research".

For example, if I take X amount of warpstone on a type Y species, I get result Z. The fact that Skaven devices/mutants/magic have similar results (i.e. a standard output) shows evidence of applied logic and research. There appears to be a "standard" to what is an acceptable Rat Ogre and what isn't - granted this acceptance is how big and how much it can kill. Add too much warpstone and you don't get the type of creature you want. Use the wrong base "thing" to mutate, and you don't get the result you want. In a general sense, the same goes for a machine (X amount of material to build Y machine to get Z results).

Don't get me wrong, the Skaven learn more through random chance and happenings to get something - but so do modern humans. But as anything else - opinion of how one views the subject at hand effects your argument.

On the whole, I tend to personally see the Skaven as species that tries to make order (their inventions, their culture, etc) out of something that's naturally chaos (warpstone, their inherent paranoia and unwillingness to cooperate, etc). If the Skaven are successful or not in this attempt, has yet to be seen...

RobC
05-09-2005, 11:20
Skaven have a standard output because they, like the rest of the Warhammer armies, are limited by a standard miniatures range and somewhat restricted hack writers. If they followed background more than miniatures, there would be a lot fewer cookie-cutter rat-ogres and a lot more random genetic monstrosities.

Mikko Leho
05-09-2005, 15:42
I'm gonna have to argue that point. Even in light of me not being a true Skaven follower, I can see there's logical planning (if only simplistic and small) that applies in Skaven "research".

While there are some some similarities, I find it hard to describe Skaven research modern or even remotely organized. Scientific method (see link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method)) requires theories, which are then used to form predictions. Skavens skip almost entirely these phases and proceed with experiments (with approriate amount of mad laughter and sadism).

Also a vital ingredient of scientific method, reproducibility, is almost always missing in Skaven experiments. Sure, they happen to produce units like rat ogres and powerful weapons, but when one looks at their failure rate, they are lucky chances among many disastrous mistakes. Passing information from generation to generation seems also be a problem, as the highly competitive nature of Skaven society (an understatement) is disencouraging co-operation.

Skaven however seem to manage alright with their chosen path, and I would argue that they don't have any need for human approach for science. The whole Skaven society is actually thriving on its own chaotic nature and able to produce advanced weaponry despite all odds.

sulla
10-09-2005, 02:59
While there are some some similarities, I find it hard to describe Skaven research modern or even remotely organized. Scientific method (see link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method)) requires theories, which are then used to form predictions. Skavens skip almost entirely these phases and proceed with experiments (with approriate amount of mad laughter and sadism).

How do we know they don't have theories? Remember that humans are just as prone to insane theories based on psuedo-science. To use a real world example, their were certain mad scientists in a mad war about 50 years ago who sought to change the pigment of peoples skin, hair and eyes and so, experimented on countless sets of twins with macabre surgeries. Madness to us but in those days legitimate science (although the methods were hideous even then)...


Also a vital ingredient of scientific method, reproducibility, is almost always missing in Skaven experiments. Sure, they happen to produce units like rat ogres and powerful weapons, but when one looks at their failure rate, they are lucky chances among many disastrous mistakes. Passing information from generation to generation seems also be a problem, as the highly competitive nature of Skaven society (an understatement) is disencouraging co-operation.

Skaven have arguably a larger degre of reproducability than humans. For example, the pinacle of human military technology is the steam tank, of which there were only 12. The pinacle of Skaven milatary technology is the warp-lightning cannon, and there is a seemingly endless supply of them.

More examples of skaven technological reproduction is the rat-ogre (variety comes not from the construction method but from the raw materials used), ratling gun and any other skyre tech...


Skaven however seem to manage alright with their chosen path, and I would argue that they don't have any need for human approach for science. The whole Skaven society is actually thriving on its own chaotic nature and able to produce advanced weaponry despite all odds.

IMO, skaven use exactly the same methods as humans, just at accelerated pace, just as their own lives occur at an accelerated pace compared to humans.

Sulla

Lord Lucifer
10-09-2005, 07:55
With Skaven, science, and 'chaos' or 'chaotic nature'... well, I believe it's simply that, despite the highly complex society they have, the detailed political intrigue, and the amazingly technical scientific experimentation they partake in, the Chaos is in the application rather than the process itself.

Mikko Leho
10-09-2005, 08:28
How do we know they don't have theories? Remember that humans are just as prone to insane theories based on psuedo-science.

Eugenics, phrenology and others are pseudo-science only because we know them to be such. Scientific method does not take any stance on how real the theories are, but how this knowledge is put to the test. Humans might organize and interpret incorrectly some experiments, but when the results are made public and open for discussion, we are getting closer to the truth.

The Skaven however have problems with sharing their accumulated knowledge. While there might be ingenious individuals among the Skaven ranks, the society doesn't have methods for passing theories along like libraries, universities and schools. Most likely the most inventive ratmen are paranoid for their ideas to be stolen and used by their competitors and assistants. I could very well imagine a skaven engineer destroying his notes before giving them to others.

While the people of Old World are still abit coarse with their studies, they already show many signs of organized research. Skaven on the other hand are doomed to invent the same theory/invention numerous of times, before it is adapted (stolen) by the whole society. This type of progress is not unheard of in human history, but the Skaven society is pretty much based upon it.


Skaven have arguably a larger degre of reproducability than humans. For example, the pinacle of human military technology is the steam tank, of which there were only 12. The pinacle of Skaven milatary technology is the warp-lightning cannon, and there is a seemingly endless supply of them.

And their failure rate is down right horrible. There may be only 12 steam tanks but they are reliable and do what they are supposed to do. Warp-lightning cannon has to potential of being just as deadly for the Skaven as for their enemies. It is quite chaotic pattern.


IMO, skaven use exactly the same methods as humans, just at accelerated pace, just as their own lives occur at an accelerated pace compared to humans.

Then why all their inventions seem to be more deadly copies of human and dwarven design? This suggest that the Skaven can only steal technology and merge it with warp power with variable succes rate. Also the creation of rat ogres and other abominations seem have more to do with Skavens' high resistance to mutations than their methods as you pointed out.

Forse
05-01-2007, 12:19
I've read through the thread, and found it very interesting.

I've a question for Lord Lucifer, or anyone else who feels inclined to answer.

If I've understood you correctly, Lord Lucifer, the only thing which makes Chaos entities good or evil is the way in which they are "used" by mortals. Is this correct? While Isha exists in The Realm of Chaos in some manner, she does not exist as a caring being? There is no room for "caring" in The Realm of Chaos, except caring in the Slaaneshi sense of the word. :p

Have I understood this correctly? The divine pantheon in the Warhammer World is a force of nature. The only sentient caring, hating, hoping etc. is done by mortals.

The Horned Rat exists in The Realm of Chaos as a hater, schemer, defiler and despairer. He doesn't exist as a hater/schemer/defiler of/against men. The only specific hating/scheming/defiling is done by the ratmen themselves.

Now tell me, have I understood all this correctly?

If I have, I have another question: Are the men, elves, dwarfs, ratmen and other races of the world aware of this? Are they aware of the fact that there is no greater being sharing their opinion, so to speak? Do men of the empire know that Sigmar, as a lover of men and hater of others, does not exist?

Edit: I just realized I ressurected a thread which has been inactive for a long time. Hope Lord Lucifer or someone else remembers enough to be able to answer my questions. :p

Arnizipal
06-01-2007, 01:35
If I've understood you correctly, Lord Lucifer, the only thing which makes Chaos entities good or evil is the way in which they are "used" by mortals. Is this correct? While Isha exists in The Realm of Chaos in some manner, she does not exist as a caring being? There is no room for "caring" in The Realm of Chaos, except caring in the Slaaneshi sense of the word. :p

Once enough emotions form a deity, this deity gains consciousness. So Isha as a caring being in the Realm of Chaos does exist, but only because the Elves expect her to be a caring deity and worship her (and thus shape her) as such.

Isha does genuinly care for her Elven worshippers though.


The Horned Rat exists in The Realm of Chaos as a hater, schemer, defiler and despairer. He doesn't exist as a hater/schemer/defiler of/against men. The only specific hating/scheming/defiling is done by the ratmen themselves.

Centuries of being fed by Skaven hatred for the surface races probably has made the Horned Rat into a god that despises mankind.

Again, worship defines the image and properties of a deity.


If I have, I have another question: Are the men, elves, dwarfs, ratmen and other races of the world aware of this? Are they aware of the fact that there is no greater being sharing their opinion, so to speak? Do men of the empire know that Sigmar, as a lover of men and hater of others, does not exist?

The High Elves (and so most likely the Dark and Wood Elves as well) know of this. As such they don't have dedicated priests to their gods.

speedygogo
06-01-2007, 10:24
Chaos is a term that GW uses to define the realms of magic the corrupting 4 daemon gods of chaos are a part of this realm but not the sum of it. The dilema that the warhammer universe faces is the question, "What is above corruption?" War spoils peace, prideful gain corrupts knowledge, perversion taints love and disease ruins health.

Drogmir
06-01-2007, 13:18
Chaos is linked to magic, magic is linked to Chaos

8 winds of magic when used altogether gives you Chaos Undivided

Skaven were born from the gaint warpstone made after the high elves battled against Chaos.


you see the whole thing is just a big messy background where your standard GW employ wouldn't know anything beyond the 8 winds make Undivided and Undivided makes the 4 main gods plus subreeds.

Drasanil
06-01-2007, 14:06
The High Elves (and so most likely the Dark and Wood Elves as well) know of this. As such they don't have dedicated priests to their gods.

I don't know, witch elves always struck me as pretty dedicated priestesses of Khaine, the everqueen is pretty much the living incarnation of Isha and appears to be worshiped as such. Elves know more about the warp than humans, but it doesn't mean they're in on all of warhammer's biggest secrets, as far as I can tell they don't have particular priests for each god like humans do, because they consider the concept of elevating a god over another to be rather silly in the first place not to mention potentialy dangerous(see dark elves and Khaine, or wood elves with Isha and Kurnous to a lesser extent).

I know there is a brief snippet of Teclis explaining the nature of the divine in RoS -which was a mistake IMO-, but on the whole when you look at elven fluff, they have temples and shrines, creation myth's, both the pheonix king and everqueen rule based on divine right and elves seem to genuinely believe in their gods as much as humans do, -druchii excepted- the only real difference as far as I can tell is that they shun organised religion.

Arnizipal
06-01-2007, 19:19
Chaos is linked to magic, magic is linked to Chaos
8 winds of magic when used altogether gives you Chaos Undivided

Skaven were born from the gaint warpstone made after the high elves battled against Chaos.

The 8 winds don't make Chaos Undivided. :eyebrows:
The winds themselves are not sentient. They come from the Realm of Chaos and so do the Chaos gods, but it's not as simple as saying the combined winds form the gods.

Skaven where born in the city of Kavzar, when an unknown stranger offered to finish a temple the local humans and Dwarfs where building for years. He placed a bell at the top of the temple, which caused warpstorms to wrack the city and mutate its vermin.
Elves had nothing to do with it...


I know there is a brief snippet of Teclis explaining the nature of the divine in RoS -which was a mistake IMO-, but on the whole when you look at elven fluff, they have temples and shrines, creation myth's, both the pheonix king and everqueen rule based on divine right and elves seem to genuinely believe in their gods as much as humans do, -druchii excepted- the only real difference as far as I can tell is that they shun organised religion.
I was basing my statement on RoS.

Also, the Liber Chaotica states that since Aenarion's fall, the Elves don't give themselves body and soul to a deity anymore, but now that you mention it, the Everqueen is pretty much an avatar of Isha....

Maybe MvS wouls like to comment on this a bit more...

Paviel
06-01-2007, 23:06
Also, the Liber Chaotica states that since Aenarion's fall, the Elves don't give themsleves body and soul to a deity anymore but now that you mention it, the Everqueen is pretty much an avatar of Isha....

Indeed. And Orion and Ariel are pretty much avatars of Kurnous and Isha too.

Then again, everything in the Liber Chaotica seems to be subjective, and the writer may not have been privy to the Asrai's secrets.

Forse
06-01-2007, 23:34
Once enough emotions form a deity, this deity gains consciousness. So Isha as a caring being in the Realm of Chaos does exist, but only because the Elves expect her to be a caring deity and worship her (and thus shape her) as such.

Isha does genuinly care for her Elven worshippers though.

Centuries of being fed by Skaven hatred for the surface races probably has made the Horned Rat into a god that despises mankind.

Again, worship defines the image and properties of a deity.
Hm, but are entities within the Realm of Chaos capable of these specific emotions? As I understood it, The Realm of Chaos is simply full of anger, hatred, pleasure, hope etc. There is no such thing as "hatred of humans" or "love of elves" within The Realm of Chaos. That's why a Witch Hunter who is chasing down Chaos followers may actually also be feeding Khorne. Maybe even Slaanesh, if he feels joy in his work.

Isn't the elf who feels love in fact feeding the same entity as the human feeling love? If so, how can Isha as an elf-loving entity exist?

Or maybe you meant that she is a reflection of elven emotions? In being that, she gives back what she is made up of.

Just as Khorne gives the most attention to those who serve him best (ie the biggest, maddest boy around) Isha gives the most attention to those who feed her the best. The elves, that is.

Have I gotten it right this time around?


I've really got to buy Liber Chaotica and some other books. All the knowledge I've got is what I've read on the internet and in army books.

MvS
07-01-2007, 00:21
The Elves' greater awareness about the nature of the gods doesn't mean that they don't understand that the gods are realities that must be lived with, dealt with, negotiated, appeased and even feared. We all know where humans comes from and their tiny beginnings as cells, and we all know that all humans have limitations and/or failings, but this doesn't affect our judgements, respect, fear, hatred, love and so on of adult humans we have met, seen and heard of.

In a limited sense you could say that the elves see the gods as profoundly important and powerful tools that have their own motivations besides those that their users put them to.

Isha is important to the Asur and she really does have an effect upon them, and look at the benefits gained by the Everqueen and the elves in general by venerating, and even personifying, their deity. Greater knowledge of how something 'works' doesn't mean that that something has less relevance or power.

But even this doesn't really cover the belief systems of the elves. I think each of the elven kindreds see their gods in different lights. They are all the same species, Elves, but they are most certainly not the same cultures or even races (if that distinction makes sense). I would see the Asrai as generally the most 'religious'. They are the most 'consumed' by the magic they use and the beliefs they have, to the point that their two prime gods walk amongst them, along with countless other spirits and aethyric entities. They have become part of the 'story' of their haunted and super-magic forest rather than an independent race that happens to live in that forest. They are almost possessed by Athel-Loren.

As for the Asur and Druchii... well I believe that different groups see the divine and 'liase' with the divine in different ways. Teclis is the High Priest of the God of Wisdom and is about the most knowledgeable and powerful mage in the Warhammer world. Of course he has an insight that others do not. That doesn't mean he is 100% on the money mind you, just much more so than a human. Archaon is probably under very few illusions as to the nature of gods, but he is still pretty dedicated to his lot. Others within the White Tower might have very similar views to Teclis, but Teclis is special.

Outside the White Tower I would see the elves as having different views again. Oh they won't be anywhere near as superstitious as humans and other races, and they will be more aware of the relationship between magic, daemons and gods, but they won't be quite as 'technically aware' as Teclis, say.

Likewise, I'm sure Malekith sees all the gods as powerful tools to be used (with extreme caution) as it suits him. Morathi may feel the same with all deities and daemons other than Slaanesh. The Witch Elves may well be aware about how Khaine is empowered and what he really wants, but they are still his devotees because that is how they are socialised and that is how they get their power, be it spiritual, psychological or political.

So yes. My views, somewhat boiled down but I hope relatively coherent.

:)

N0-1_H3r3
07-01-2007, 00:40
Archaon is probably under very few illusions as to the nature of gods, but he is still pretty dedicated to his lot.
I'd disagree with that - as far as I can tell, Archaon is a complete and utter nutjob.

This is a man whose clarity is that of madness. He may well see the World as it truly is... or he may only think that. What else can be said of a man who, upon reading a tome of ancient and blasphemous prophecies about an unspecified "Lord of the End Times", decided that the prophecy was about himself...

Honestly... I can't find a single word of evidence that suggests that anyone but Archaon himself ever claimed that he was the Lord of the End Times, destined to bring about the destruction of reality and the dominance of Chaos. Devoted he may be... but I doubt his sanity, or the clarity of his visions of the world.

Hellebore
07-01-2007, 01:54
Perhapss that is the irony of the Lord? They all take it upon themselves to do something they weren't destined to do?

Who knows if any of the previous Lords were actually 'destined' or chosen by the gods to be the Lord - perhaps they just WANTED to be?

Hellebore

N0-1_H3r3
07-01-2007, 12:24
Perhapss that is the irony of the Lord? They all take it upon themselves to do something they weren't destined to do?

Who knows if any of the previous Lords were actually 'destined' or chosen by the gods to be the Lord - perhaps they just WANTED to be?
Perhaps... but it strikes me that Archaon was the only one who read about the subject before making that decision. The others - that we know of - did so out of devotion to the Chaos Gods: Asavar Kul, for example, was a chieftain of one or other of the tribes in the north, where the Chaos Gods are worshipped by all because they're the most evident gods around - gaining in power and prestige to go and rampage amongst the southerners is sort of every small child's dream amongst the Kurgan or the Hung.

Then again, I tend to distinguish between "Everchosen" and "Lord of the End Times" - the Everchosen is a single rare being whose efforts and actions are supported by the Ruinous Powers as a whole. One turns up every few generations (there may be many we haven't heard of because they led Chaos Incursions against Cathay, rather than the Empire), with Be'lakor as the first Everchosen and Archaon as the most recent. Instances of an Everchosen rising to power and a Chaos Incursion happening are becoming more and more frequent, according to Tome of Corruption, so we might expect the next one to be between 1 and 2 centuries away, though whether or not they attack the Empire or Cathay is a different matter.

The Lord of the End Times, IMO, is - or rather will be - the last Everchosen. The final being to bear that title and achieve that power, who will ultimately cause the end of the world and force the cosmos back into the Chaos from whence it came.

The only difference between Archaon and the other Everchosen, IMO, is that he knows of the prophesied end of the world, and sought to become it. Whether he actually is the one who will bring down all existence is unknown and debatable.

Asentaja
07-01-2007, 13:01
If all Gods are Chaos Gods ultimately (see horders of chaos book) doesn't that mean that indirectly all the people are the Warhammer World are indirectly worshipping at least 1 of the great 4?

If this is so then why do the Chaos armies slaughter all through Kislev and the Empire? Surely all the inhabitants are worshipping Chaos Gods anyway, so basically the Gods would be killing their own followeres.

Any thoughts?

The reason why the forces of Chaos do not slaughter all trough Kislev and the Empire is that the Chaos gods have no desire to destroy the Empire. It is the followers of Chaos who battle the forces of men, not the gods themselves. The followers are only trying to prove themselves worthy in the eyes of the gods.

Hellebore
07-01-2007, 14:10
Perhaps... but it strikes me that Archaon was the only one who read about the subject before making that decision. The others - that we know of - did so out of devotion to the Chaos Gods: Asavar Kul, for example, was a chieftain of one or other of the tribes in the north, where the Chaos Gods are worshipped by all because they're the most evident gods around - gaining in power and prestige to go and rampage amongst the southerners is sort of every small child's dream amongst the Kurgan or the Hung.

Then again, I tend to distinguish between "Everchosen" and "Lord of the End Times" - the Everchosen is a single rare being whose efforts and actions are supported by the Ruinous Powers as a whole. One turns up every few generations (there may be many we haven't heard of because they led Chaos Incursions against Cathay, rather than the Empire), with Be'lakor as the first Everchosen and Archaon as the most recent. Instances of an Everchosen rising to power and a Chaos Incursion happening are becoming more and more frequent, according to Tome of Corruption, so we might expect the next one to be between 1 and 2 centuries away, though whether or not they attack the Empire or Cathay is a different matter.

The Lord of the End Times, IMO, is - or rather will be - the last Everchosen. The final being to bear that title and achieve that power, who will ultimately cause the end of the world and force the cosmos back into the Chaos from whence it came.

The only difference between Archaon and the other Everchosen, IMO, is that he knows of the prophesied end of the world, and sought to become it. Whether he actually is the one who will bring down all existence is unknown and debatable.


Ah yes, I like that distinction.

So Archaon took it upon himself to be the Lord of the End Times? That fits with him I reckon.

Hellebore

Arnizipal
07-01-2007, 19:20
Hm, but are entities within the Realm of Chaos capable of these specific emotions? As I understood it, The Realm of Chaos is simply full of anger, hatred, pleasure, hope etc. There is no such thing as "hatred of humans" or "love of elves" within The Realm of Chaos. That's why a Witch Hunter who is chasing down Chaos followers may actually also be feeding Khorne. Maybe even Slaanesh, if he feels joy in his work.
Do you know the theory of overlapping circles?

Each god is represented by a circle. The biggest circles are 4 Great Chaos gods, as they represent the stongest basic emotions: hate, hope, despair and pleasure. All other gods are smaller circles of more specific emotions that fall into or overlap these bigger circles.

Take the Horned Rat for example: He's a god of hatred, disease and mutation so he's part Khorne, Nurgle and Tzeentch (note that this doesn't make him subservient to any of these deities).
The hatred that Skaven feel for surface dwellers feeds Khorne (as the god of hatred), but the specific feelings of hatred against humans/dwarfs/... also feeds the Horned Rat.

To continue your example of the Witch Hunter: his hatred of Chaos minions feeds Sigmar, but the feeling is still hatred, so it also feeds Khorne.

Forse
07-01-2007, 21:55
Yes, I know of the overlapping circles. But I didn't think of it like that. Thanks Arnizipal.

I only thought of it as all emotions get the same treatment in The Realm of Chaos. Ie that they go straight to the core. But get the whole "building houses" thing now. That the specific deities build upon the others.

MvS
08-01-2007, 00:45
Perhapss that is the irony of the Lord? They all take it upon themselves to do something they weren't destined to do?

Who knows if any of the previous Lords were actually 'destined' or chosen by the gods to be the Lord - perhaps they just WANTED to be?
I like that. Like a self-fulfilling prophecy...

Finnigan2004
10-01-2007, 04:40
I really enjoyed reading this thread, but at risk of taking it in a less serious direction, I just have to point out that all gods are, of course, chaos gods. Blood for the blood god! Skulls for the skull throne!

MvS
10-01-2007, 09:33
I'd disagree with that - as far as I can tell, Archaon is a complete and utter nutjob...[snip]...Devoted he may be... but I doubt his sanity, or the clarity of his visions of the world.

Fair point.

I would agree that as far as objectives views go, Archaon is about as nuts as squirrel-poo. And as indicated in my last post, I like the idea that the Everchosen is a self-fulfilling prophecy - so individuals are rarely (if ever) 'Chosen' by the Chaos Gods in advance of fulfilling all the tasks that make them eligible to be the Everchosen. If you're strong enough physically and have the mental fortitude and mono-maniacal drive to dominate and succeed in the face of monsters, daemons and gods, passing all the tests and ticking all the right boxes without being destroyed, becoming a drooling idiot or warping into a spawn, then your are, as far as it matters, The Chap For The Job, regardless of whether the gods gave two figs about you before you started.

Regarding whether Archaon has a clearer insight into the nature of the divine than other humans... I would still say that he does, and it is this that made him crazy to start with. Certainly he may not have factual knowledge of all relevant detail concerning the divine in Warhammer, but I would suggest that he does have a pretty clear view about how gods are 'born'. In fact, I view Champions who are dedicated to Chaos in its Undivided horror (as opposed to worshippers who dedicate themselves the the Chaos Gods as a pantheon, which isn't quite the same thing) as wise in a very particular way. Why even assume that there is an option to unite the drives and desires of the others conflicted Chaos Gods unless you know something about the nature of Chaos and its generic 'purpose'?

In the Storm of Chaos, not only did Archaon seem unimpressed by the idea of Sigmar's divinity, preferring instead to target Ulric, whom he referred to as 'Sigmar's god'. He seemed to be interested in smashing the seat of Ulric's power upon the mortal plane and scattering his worshippers, I think with a mind of decreasing Ulric's power.

If he was like other humans, he would believe that gods have their power regardless of their worshippers or the emotions/concepts that form them, and so attacking Middenheim would be a more symbolic act. But I don't think it was just symbolic in this case.

I'm open to debate though. :)

N0-1_H3r3
12-01-2007, 13:42
I would agree that as far as objective views go, Archaon is about as nuts as squirrel-poo. And as indicated in my last post, I like the idea that the Everchosen is a self-fulfilling prophecy - so individuals are rarely (if ever) 'Chosen' by the Chaos Gods in advance of fulfilling all the tasks that make them eligible to be the Everchosen. I you're strong enough physically and have the mental fortitude and mono-maniac drive to dominate and succeed in the face of monsters, daemons and gods, passing all the tests and ticking all the right boxes without being destroyed, becoming a drooling idiot or warping into a spawn, then your are, as far as it matters, The Chap For The Job, regardless of whter the gods gave two figs about you before you started.
Everchosen, yes... that much I'm happy to agree on. He was, afterall, crowned as such by the bitter, unwilling and resentful Be'lakor.

Lord of the End Times... I don't think so. I think it'll take something quite different to accomplish that, if even it can be accomplished. Archaon, from an objective standpoint, is merely a former purveyor of religious persecution, driven mad by the merest glimpse of a truth (whether it's the truth is debatable and will likely remain unanswered) and wandered off to find a new career.


Regarding whether Archaon has a clearer insight into the nature of the divine than other humans... I would still say that he does, and it is this that made him crazy to start with. Certainly he may not have factual knowledge of all relevant detail concerning the divine in Warhammer, but I would suggest that he does have a pretty clear view about how gods are 'born'. In fact, I view Champions who are dedicated to Chaos in its Undivided horror (as opposed to worshippers who dedicate themselves the the Chaos Gods as a pantheon, which isn't quite the same thing) as wise in a very particular way. Why even assume that there is an option to unite the drives and desires of the others conflicted Chaos Gods unless you know something about the nature of Chaos and its generic 'purpose'?
Clearer insight, perhaps... but I doubt he has more than the faintest, vaguest idea about what it is he's actually seen. Afterall, the Elves have a clearer insight than Man, and the Slann have clearer insight still... they aren't necessarily right, but they don't go about trying to obliterate cities because of it.

I see Archaon as being very much like Abaddon in 40k - he's not a servant of Chaos, but a wielder of it. That, I think, defines those who successfully embody Chaos Undivided - the decision to try and use it to further your own goals, end your own grudges, but not let it consume you and make you lose sight of those goals. It's a rare individual that accomplishes it, suggesting why the Everchosen that we know of are all Chaos Ascendant (that is, representing all of Chaos - Chaos Undivided has too many meanings to use in this context, pantheism [Chaos Unified] and laziness [Chaos Undecided] amongst them).


In the Storm of Chaos, not only did Archaon seem unimpressed by the idea of Sigmar's divinity, preferring instead to target Ulric, whom he referred to as 'Sigmar's god'. He seemed to be interested in smashing the seat of Ulric's power upon the mortal plane and scattering his worshippers, I think with a mind of decreasing Ulric's power.

If he was like other humans, he would believe that gods have their power regardless of their worshippers or the emotions/concepts that form them, and so attacking Middenheim would be a more symbolic act. But I don't think it was just symbolic in this case.
It seemed more like he had a grudge against his former patron deity. Sigmar was, afterall, an Ulrican, and was crowned by the Ar-Ulric of the time - striking out at Sigmar's God seems quite spiteful and wrathful. More importantly, it seems to be a plan conceived with little to no thought as to how it'll be achieved (Step 1, gather horde. Step 2. Step 3, desecrate Temple of Ulric...), which suggests a far from rational mind. Middenheim, afterall, is the single most defensible human city in the known world. Only Dwarfholds are harder to crack open, and they generally require generations-long sieges to do so. Your reasoning might work on a subconscious level, but I can't honestly see him understanding the 'truth' he's come to learn on any real level - he might be acting upon it, but doesn't really know why.

Jongrom Calasson
01-04-2007, 11:40
Does his mean that there are, in fact, infinitely small gods, all of which represent something within the realms of Chaos?

Questions;

Are daemons technically gods?

Is it possible to have gots that represent items, not emotions - e.g. Om-Oi, god of tortoises?

Do gods become more or less powerful as they gain or lose worshippers? So if, say, only one Elf was left in th world (heh, heh), then Isha or whoever would just be incredibly weak and unable to actually do anythng in terms of granting wishes, etc.

Which major gods would these emotions/mental conditions come under?
Pyromania
Kleptomania
Megalomania
Envy
Friendship
Thirst for Knowledge
Pride

What happens to Atheists emotions?

What does Hashut actually represent?

RobC
01-04-2007, 14:22
Does this mean that there are, in fact, infinitely small gods, all of which represent something within the realms of Chaos?Sort of, but see below for a more detailed explanation.


Are daemons technically gods?It would be more accurate to say that gods are merely very powerful daemons. All warp entities are essentially the same basic thing, but their personality, source of power and sphere of influence vary wildly.


Is it possible to have gots that represent items, not emotions - e.g. Om-Oi, god of tortoises?Your example isn't an item, but I think you mean can a god represent a specific type of worshipper. Yes, it can, but you have to consider what makes a god what it is.

To use your example, a tortoise god would reflect its 'believers' - it would be slow, ponderous, and mostly benign. It would also be very, very weak; the strongest emotions drive and mould the biggest gods, so only a tiny subset of emotional energy/mana/whatever would go to the tortoise god - who would be very weak anyway because it only seems to be sapient beings (i.e. humans, elves, greenskins) that give off enough energy to shape the gods.


Do gods become more or less powerful as they gain or lose worshippers? So if, say, only one Elf was left in th world (heh, heh), then Isha or whoever would just be incredibly weak and unable to actually do anythng in terms of granting wishes, etc.Yes, but 'belief' isn't direct in Warhammer. As stated previously, the most powerful gods are those that derive their power from emotions: the Chaos gods. All acts of rage contribute to Khorne, all acts of despair contribute to Nurgle, and so on. The more racially specific, more defined gods are therefore much weaker, because their subset of emotion and the source of their power is much smaller.

It's also important to remember that gods are not discrete entities in the same way that mortals are. Khaine is both himself and a part of Khorne, and the same is true of Isha; she is part of the other nature gods of the world as well as being an entity in her own right.

Gods in the Warhammer world rarely, if ever, grant wishes or prayers, or anything like that. They act through their worshippers, either directly or indirectly. Priests cast spells not through direct intervention of their god but because belief in their god allows them to channel magic.


What happens to Atheists emotions?The same thing that happens to the emotions of all the other sapient races, except that no specific god would benefit directly from their worship.

Atheists wouldn't exist in the Warhammer world; not in the way we understand them anyway. An individual, for whatever reason, could choose to worship no gods, but that isn't the same as denying their existence.

That said, there was a minor Chaos god of atheism in one of the old WFRP supplements, but by its very nature, this god wouldn't be anything more than a virtually powerless thing; it only exists because Chaos, by its very nature, allows for any and all possibilities.

Arnizipal
01-04-2007, 14:55
Which major gods would these emotions/mental conditions come under?
Pyromania

The joy of burning things would probably go to Slaanesh.


Kleptomania

Same here. Even more so because Slaaneshi worshippers become more and more selfish over time. Stealing is right up their alley.


Megalomania

Every Chaos worshipper becomes a megalomaniac over time as he or she grows in power. Any god can claim emotions from that.


Envy

Tzeentch as the god of Change or Slaanesh as the god of Selfishness.


Friendship

Loyalty to friends would be Khorne. Caring for friends possibly Nurgle.


Thirst for Knowledge

Definatly Tzeentch.


Pride

Either of the Great 4 could feed on this, though Khorne and Slaanesh the most I think.


What does Hashut actually represent?
He's the god of industry and dark technology.

Gods in the Warhammer world rarely, if ever, grant wishes or prayers, or anything like that. They act through their worshippers, either directly or indirectly. Priests cast spells not through direct intervention of their god but because belief in their god allows them to channel magic.

Actually, I belive it's the god that channels the magic, which is why priestly spells are much safter to cast.

Zzarchov
01-04-2007, 15:08
Well they are changing it, but it used to be that the gods had ACTUAL bodies, they were just big Daemons. They weren't giant New age hippy "Concept Vortexes", they were typical, fantasy greek style badd azz ****'s with physical bodies (well, as "physical" as any other Daemon)

And all gods WERE them. It was their favourite game to trick various people into worshipping them. Khaine was very heavily shown to be Khorne (the Dark Elf witches wore symbols of Khorne on their hats). Which was part of the Cthulu like horror. No matter who you worshipped, you were worshipping a Chaos god, pawns in their twisted little game. And no matter how hard you struggle there is no escape, there never was in the first place, just more of their game.

RobC
01-04-2007, 15:31
Zzarchov - care to give a reference for this? Given that the concept of vortices goes back to the original Realm of Chaos books, I'm not aware of any previous treatment to Chaos that matches with your description.

CommanderCax
01-04-2007, 16:26
Are daemons technically gods?

Nope. Daemons and gods are two different things. Both are warp-entities indeed. Just as a giant sequoia and a fly are both living creatures. Still they are distinct and it is important to keep this distinction in mind.
Daemons are not so closely bound to the warp. They are seperate from the fabric of their universe, and do not flow and change with it like gods do. A daemon is 'born' when a Chaos Power gives up little of its accumulated power to create a seperate being. This power binds a collection of senses, thoughts and purposes together, giving a personality and consciousness that moves within the warp. The Chaos Power can reclaim the power and independence it has given to its daemon children at any time, thus ensuring their loyalty. It is only through the loss of this power that a daemon can be 'killed'. Its mind dissolves into the whirls and currents of warp space.
Furthermore the lesser Chaos Powers (ie. gods) can also give birth to a daemon. The ripples of warpspace create short lived and very minor Powers, some of whom invest all their energy in a single daemon. They 'become' the daemon, and gain independence from the warp's ceaseless currents, exchanging the potential of greater power for the certainty of maintaining their current energy.

This (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51569) was an interesting discussion and might be worthwhile to read.

Arathiel
02-04-2007, 04:35
I read most of the posts on this thread and find it very interesting since I do not know a lot about the the warhammer mythos. I just wanted to bring up something that lord lucifer said. He mentions that chaos and the four great powers are not necessarily evil and that they just appeal to the greedy because it is the quickest way to power. Therefore, from what he said it seems that the majority who worship chaos are the ones who make it evil due to their corrupt use of it for personal gain and power. Please correct me if I do not understand.

Now lord lucifer also emphasized that MOST take this immoral route of utilizing the chaos powers for corrupt and evil deeds and not ALL. So if I understand this correctly, could someone who worships chaos for motives other than personal gain and power use it for good? For example, could a chaos worshiper of Tzeentch technically have some inherent moral sense, embrace hope or knowledge, and use his chaos power to combat corrupt mortals or beings?

MvS
02-04-2007, 10:56
To start with yes, but the Chaos Gods are extreme monomaniacs and they promote this extremity in all their servants. Regardless of whether you are trying to do good or not, if you pursue one ideal, purpose or way of behaving to an absolute obsession, and then are driven by your god beyond obsession to something else entirely, inevitably you will be destructive and dangerous in some way, to yourself and probably to others.

That's a bit of a simplistic explanation but it serves. You can start off 'doing good' with and for the Chaos Gods, but what you do will never be enough and you will find yourself more and more driven to acts of reater magnitude to serve the defining emotions and concepts that form your deity.

Multifarious
02-04-2007, 11:25
Step 1, gather horde. Step 2. Step 3, desecrate Temple of Ulric...

Best description of the Storm of Chaos ever, I'm sigging it.

Where do Gork and Mork fit in? And is it possible to have an undivided daemon prince? I think Be'lakor would count, as would Kurt Leitzig from the "of Chaos" books, but how exactly does this work?

Chaplain of Chaos
02-04-2007, 17:21
Gork and Mork are not gods that exist within the realm of chaos as I understand it, but incarnations of power generated by the orc psyche. Orc shamans are capable of tapping into the latent force of the Orcs warlike nature and use it in the form of spells.

I am not sure whether Gork and Mork even exist, but are nothing more than icons through which the psychic force of the orc race is channeled. Hmmm... if you acccept that 40k and Fantasy are linked, then could Orcs be considered the first pure form of Psyker?

stormblade
02-04-2007, 22:01
All gods are entities of Aethyr and all Aethyr is not chaos and not all gods depend on emotion(Ex.Hashut-industry isn't an emotion).

Besides emotion isn't everything in WArhammer world it can be denied by self control and\or willpower (and faith in Sigmar naturally:evilgrin: ) so chaos gods do not rule all and they aren't even real "gods" as the are made by men\elves\dwarves etc...

Bubble Ghost
02-04-2007, 22:58
if you acccept that 40k and Fantasy are linked, then could Orcs be considered the first pure form of Psyker?

I don't think you'll find many people in this forum accepting that 40K and fantasy are linked...

Ender Shadowkin
03-04-2007, 00:24
This is a very interesting discusion, in all my years of warhammer I have never really reserached into the mythos, in this sort of depth, so i have a few questions for the experts here . . .


who would be very weak anyway because it only seems to be sapient beings (i.e. humans, elves, greenskins) that give off enough energy to shape the gods.

gods. All acts of rage contribute to Khorne, all

So based on the above, why would the other 3 primary chaos gods, enchourage any sore of fighting at all if it would primarly benefit their rival Khnorne? Particularly fighting Khorn worshipers themselve, you are already loosing 50% of the belief/emotion battle from the getgo, assuming your champion can focus purly on the please of killing or something.

So, based on the overlapping spheres of influence, e.g Followers of Ulric fighting in his name will always be beneifting Khorne as well. This seams like an unsustainable System, the worships of a small structured aspect god could never hope to ultimately contest the worshipers of the primary aspect.

How are the Primary Chaos Gods ever weakened if all roads lead to them? by structureing Beliefs? Yet the experts say the structured beleifs in various entities still always roll up to the big four. The system seam again unsustainable leading to unbeatable hordes of spkey chaos champions.

Are the chaos gods weakend by absence of belief or perhaps absence of emotion? Is the true enemy of Chaos of for of Pacifist, taoist monks living somewhere in Cathay?

This whole Mythos seams to lead to an ever expanding realm of Chaos as human beliefs and emotions feed it. Yet the warhammer world tends to operate on a roughly a ballance of the rest of the nations and the Forces of the Four. How is this ballance achieved if all of the actions of the inhabitants and thier various sub diety only ultimatly buoys the power of the 4?

N0-1_H3r3
03-04-2007, 08:50
Is the true enemy of Chaos of for of Pacifist, taoist monks living somewhere in Cathay?
Ah, yes - the ancient eastern philosophy of Vimtoism, and it's followers, the purple-clad Vimto (http://www.vimto.co.uk/) monks.

Old piece of background, doesn't really consist of much more than a rather silly joke, but it seemed relevant.


So based on the above, why would the other 3 primary chaos gods, enchourage any sore of fighting at all if it would primarly benefit their rival Khnorne? Particularly fighting Khorn worshipers themselve, you are already loosing 50% of the belief/emotion battle from the getgo, assuming your champion can focus purly on the please of killing or something.
Daemons don't count - being essentially extensions and fragmentary manifestations of their god, Daemons have no other emotions but the ones their god embodies, and may not even have emotions as we know it.

For everyone else, continued devotion to one or other of the Chaos gods, while not able to utterly destroy the human ability to feel or comprehend other emotions, does result in people whose mental states are skewed towards their chosen patron. A Champion of Khorne is continually angry, a Champion of Nurgle has passed beyond his own despair so he might give it to others, a Champion of Slaanesh seeks pleasure and self-fulfilment from every deed, and a Champion of Tzeentch is all plots and schemes and considerations of the future. When a Champion of Tzeentch battles against a Champion of Khorne, the Khornate Champion's background thoughts of tactics and skill and the promise of success give some benefit to Tzeentch... but such a benefit is eclipsed by the rage and hate of the Champion. Meanwhile, the Tzeentchian Champion fights primarily with detachment from the battle itself, instead pondering and contemplating the best way to change his adversary (from living, to dead) and using whatever tools he has available to do so. He might feel anger and frustration at his enemy, but that pales in comparison to the machinations that are feeding Tzeentch.


This whole Mythos seams to lead to an ever expanding realm of Chaos as human beliefs and emotions feed it. Yet the warhammer world tends to operate on a roughly a ballance of the rest of the nations and the Forces of the Four. How is this ballance achieved if all of the actions of the inhabitants and thier various sub diety only ultimatly buoys the power of the 4?
And? It's always been that the war against Chaos was an unsustainable one. Chaos is inevitable, it will enter the world and overthrow all reality, and by doing so, cease to exist - the influence of reality, the laws of the Material World, and mortal thoughts are what allow Chaos to exist in the first place; without those things, Chaos returns to the formless void from which it came... and potentially, reality will come to exist again from that void in some form, leading to another cycle of creation and potential destruction.

Chaos - and I'm not talking about the daemons or the marauders or the warriors or the beastmen, but the fundamental essence of the Ruinous Powers themselves - is not so much a sentient, sapient enemy of Mankind, so much as it is a natural disaster waiting to happen. Every victory that pushes it back to the gateway in the North, that stems the tide and effectively reinforces the stability of reality... is a stall. For every hundred billion spells worth of raw magical energy that flows out of the world through the Great Vortex on Ulthuan, or the Vortices on Albion, along the ley-lines, through the Ogham network, an equal or greater amount pours into the world from the gaping abyssal rift at the North Pole.

Reality cannot win. Chaos can't be destroyed. The gate was torn open, and cannot be sealed. Eventually, the tide of Chaos energies will pour into the Warhammer World, and overwhelm everything. And it'll be the last thing Chaos ever does.

RobC
03-04-2007, 14:02
N0-1_H3r3 has it exactly, and with more eloquence than I could manage.

Ender Shadowkin
03-04-2007, 19:24
N0-1_H3r3 has it exactly, and with more eloquence than I could manage.

Hmm well I guess I just don't like it either. And no, its not a black and white thing where I prefer another games system.

The overall inevitable impending doom seams like Spikey Chaos follower propaganda, not that I doubt you guys are portraying it inaccuratly. I just don't buy that this system would really work (even as a fantasy system), nor do I want to believe that all the wars are pointless and will all eventually lead to the overwhelming chaos energies enveloping the world.

Particualrly, in the example of chaos fighting itself, while I buy N0-1_H3r3's explanaition of how the other primary gods benefit from conflict, I just don't see any mortals really being able to pull that off unless they were hero or lord level, maybe chaos warriors. Any war between chaos war bands of any side is going to primarlily benefit Khorne, based on what I am reading in this thread. So whey would the other chaos gods have warriors at all? Nurgle for example should just try to spread disease and run away from every fight. You basic maurder trying to be a Nurgle champion is going to start his carreer angry and benefing Khorne, add that to the guy who is going Korne all the way and well Khonre always should have more Juice. Not to mention all of the other wars around the world where the dietes are also aspects of Khnorne.

Anyway, The whole fatalistic nature of the system just does not apeal to me. Most Relgious mythos are based on some sort of ballance, and I always thought warhammer was about flux in the ballance, power shifting back and forth, not the evergrowing unstobable snowball of chaos energy. Guess I was wrong. I'll just have to go back reading Neil Gaiman books/stories for my Fanstasy Mythology fix ;) and focus on painting the rest of my miniatuers ;)

Multifarious
03-04-2007, 20:21
Ultimately this world (ours) will die as well, but that doesn't make everything worthless and not worth fighting for.

I always interpretted it as intent making a big difference with the gods. Particularly breaking away from something. As an example Beastmen are not particularly valued by the gods, because their worship is essentially a given. I imagine the norse/kurgan/kul would be similar. On the otherhand someone from the empire turning represents new decided belief. I always thought of it as the choice to venerate the gods being the main thing, sure the warrior of Nurgle may experience anger, but he is directing that anger FOR Nurgle, so Khorne doesn't get much of a piece.

Meh, probably bad idea.

N0-1_H3r3
03-04-2007, 20:58
The overall inevitable impending doom seams like Spikey Chaos follower propaganda, not that I doubt you guys are portraying it inaccuratly. I just don't buy that this system would really work (even as a fantasy system), nor do I want to believe that all the wars are pointless and will all eventually lead to the overwhelming chaos energies enveloping the world.
Thing is, the wars themselves aren't pointless - from the perspective of those fighting them. The inevitable dominance of Chaos isn't something anyone actually knows about (except perhaps the Old Ones... maybe that's why the few that did survive chose to leave rather than stay behind... they didn't see much worth in sticking around for a world that would cease to exist).


Particualrly, in the example of chaos fighting itself, while I buy N0-1_H3r3's explanaition of how the other primary gods benefit from conflict, I just don't see any mortals really being able to pull that off unless they were hero or lord level, maybe chaos warriors. Any war between chaos war bands of any side is going to primarlily benefit Khorne, based on what I am reading in this thread. So whey would the other chaos gods have warriors at all? Nurgle for example should just try to spread disease and run away from every fight. You basic maurder trying to be a Nurgle champion is going to start his carreer angry and benefing Khorne, add that to the guy who is going Korne all the way and well Khonre always should have more Juice. Not to mention all of the other wars around the world where the dietes are also aspects of Khnorne.
That's fine, but I don't honestly see it as the Chaos Gods themselves having a great deal of control over the actual details - individual Daemons might well have that sort of insight or perception, because they're focussed and have a tangible presence, but a Chaos God is too big, too diffuse and too abstract to think in that way, if indeed they're able to think in any way we can comprehend.

Thus, the principle reason behind Chaos Marauders fighting one another isn't the Chaos Gods, it's the Marauders themselves. A skirmish between Norscan tribesmen and a raiding party of Kurgan horsemen has nothing to do with the Chaos Gods... and everything to do with those humans actually involved in the fighting - even though "the Gods will it!" may well be an excuse used by both sides.


Anyway, The whole fatalistic nature of the system just does not apeal to me. Most Relgious mythos are based on some sort of ballance, and I always thought warhammer was about flux in the ballance, power shifting back and forth, not the evergrowing unstobable snowball of chaos energy. Guess I was wrong. I'll just have to go back reading Neil Gaiman books/stories for my Fanstasy Mythology fix ;) and focus on painting the rest of my miniatuers ;)
Imagine it more as flood waters. As I understand it, Chaos is a force of nature beyond all natural laws. In any other situation, the Aethyr - the formless void of energy that Chaos exists within - is neutral, shapeless and entirely inert. The energy itself - what mortals in the Warhammer World know as the raw stuff of magic - contains the potential to be and exist as anything, but the potential simply hasn't been fulfilled, because there's no stimulus to turn it into something.

Reality is formed from the energies of that void - how, we don't know - and exists floating within it. But the Warhammer World is different. There's a hole in the Warhammer World, a point where this shapeless essence can enter the world, and where the substance of the world can get out. When this energy enters the world, it immediately attaches itself to the laws of reality - a substance that can be anything seeks a stimulus - which produces the Winds of Magic, and flows through everything and anything. All matter becomes suffused with this fundamental energy. But just as the energy changes to fit reality, so does reality change to fit around the energy... a tree suffused with magic will, if saturated with enough energy, simply cease to exist as a tree, because all physical laws governing it stop.

At the same time, fragments of reality flow out through the hole. In a realm where anything is possible, yet nothing exists, even thoughts and dreams have great weight, and the energies of the Aethyr are shaped around those thoughts. That is Chaos, the Gods of the Warhammer World - conceptual forces given form by the emotional 'leakage' of mortals.

Eventually, all of reality would become filled to overflowing with magical energy, and would cease to exist, broken down by the energies that flowed into it. The High Elves created a drain, however - the Great Vortex in Ulthuan. This, along with a network of standing stones, ley-lines and stone circles, draws magic through the world and out of it, like the overflow drain on a sink or bath. That's the main thing preventing reality from collapsing.

Now, given that Chaos has come to exist, the flow of energy into the world is no longer 'neutral' - it isn't the trickle of water flowing through a hole. Chaos adds 'pressure' to that flow, forcing it through. Sometimes the energy levels surge out of control, and the Realm of Chaos in the North-lands expands, casting a shadow over Kislev and the northern parts of the Empire. Warbands in the north, worshipping their abstract gods, surge south in response. Their defeat - the loss of worshippers (it can be supposed that directed emotion is more potent than idle emotion - that is, Anger in Khorne's Name is more useful to Khorne than just being angry), the feelings of defeat that come from a warrior beaten can be seen to lessen this 'pressure', and so Chaos recedes.

Some day, someone will make a mistake, or the battle will fail - that's inevitable, pretty much. As it is, reality - or rather, the forces that represent it - is engaged in a constant war with Chaos to simply hold on to what already exists. Chaos is in this war with everything to gain and nothing to lose, and reality has nothing to gain and everything to lose... If you want, you can imagine a future where the battle still rages, and it might well do, for countless millennia yet. In that scenario, Mortals have a chance to stave off Chaos indefinately... but that chance is very, very slim indeed, and requires that they keep fighting to maintain everything that is.

Ender Shadowkin
03-04-2007, 21:48
[QUOTE=N0-1_H3r3;1439565]
That's fine, but I don't honestly see it as the Chaos Gods themselves having a great deal of control over the actual details -[QUOTE]

I interpret them having an active role by the mutations, demonic gifts, and inclusions of diety aligned demonic units in war bands.


The rest of your stuff sounds alright to me, but in the end, the level of the big 4 abstraction and involvment detail seams to vary from what some of the others are listing. And in general the gist of the thread seams to be all conflict, emotions, and worshiping of minor gods/daemons feeds the Chaos gods, so the crushing of a Chaos Warband or incursion does boosts the 4 main powers who are then free to bring in more Daemons and give better gifts to the next people who worship them. Thus, Its not a cycle its a spiral.

I wonder how the elves mangaed to reign in Chaos the first time if this is really how things work.

RobC
03-04-2007, 22:22
[quote=N0-1_H3r3;1439565]I wonder how the elves mangaed to reign in Chaos the first time if this is really how things work.They created a giant aetheric plughole. But the amount of warp energy entering the Warhammer world is slowly, inexorably increasing. Each victory in the name of Chaos sees the shadow around the Chaos Wastes increase in area. True, it does retreat, but never to its original extent. And so, one day, the world will be overwhelmed by Chaos.

Imagine a bath being filled by high-pressure hoses and you should get the analogy ;)

CasaHouse
04-04-2007, 03:27
On the topic of Gods... I'd like to point out that the Great Maw is the only one that physically exists all the time, outside the wastes. (Sigmar did too, but I think that was before his Godness kicked in...)

HA! Ogres: 1, The rest of Fantasy: 0

the vicar
04-04-2007, 09:13
I've just finished reading this thread, and I've really quite enjoyed it. However, I have a problem with the idea that the entire range of human emotion can be summed up in a "big four." A big eight, sure. Not four. For instance, what about the emotion of fear? Or joy? Neither one of those seem to fall squarely in line with the canonical big four.

I did a little research on this, and apparently there was a sociologist or something by the name of Robert Plutchik who came up with a list of eight primary emotional states, the remainder of the human range being compound states that can be brought on by a particular mixture of at least two of the other eight. And they are:

1. Anger
2. Fear
3. Sadness
4. Joy
5. Disgust
6. Surprise
7. Curiosity
8. Acceptance

I find it interesting that there are eight of them. Upon reading it, I immediately thought of the eight-pointed star, the eight-fold path, the eight winds of magic, &c. So there is some basis for something like this to be legitimate. And it's also interesting to see how neatly the big four fit into this role already.

Khorne - 1. Anger
Nurgle - 5. Disgust
Slaanesh - 7. Curiosity
Tzeentch - 6. Surprise

It even helps explain what in blazes Tzeentch represents, in his guise of the "Changer of Ways." I thought quite a bit about this, and even made a list of all the different emotional states that I could think of (using the internet and a thesaurus, of course ;) ), and they all pretty well can be described as either synonyms of, or combinations of, one of those previous eight.

So then the question becomes, is Games Workshop's delineation of Chaos incomplete? Should it be expanded so as to include something closer to this? That is to say, if we, or Games Workshop, then say well no, Nurgle really is Disgust and Sadness and Fear, &c, then is it intellectually honest to describe the big four as being manifestations of the primary human emotions, with everything else owing homage to them?

N0-1_H3r3
04-04-2007, 09:23
I interpret them having an active role by the mutations, demonic gifts, and inclusions of diety aligned demonic units in war bands.
I disagree here... mutations, IMHO, are a result of saturation with magical energy - the body changes in unpredictable ways as the laws that govern its growth are broken.

As for Daemonic Gifts and Daemons... I imagine the Daemons themselves actually do the day-to-day stuff, that there are Greater Daemons and Daemon Princes who move about the Aethyr directing the Beasts, Lesser and Least Daemons. Also remember that a Daemon can be summoned by someone in the material world, rather than merely being 'sent'. Chaos Gifts vary in nature - some are items which have to be presented to the Champion being rewarded, others are like mutations. The former can be handed out by Daemons as they see fit, in the name of the abstract force they exist as part of. The latter are... like mutations. Focussed devotion to a God (that is, dedicating your existence and everything you do to that Chaos God) acts as a link between mortal and god - the mortal's emotions are pumped directly into the god, as opposed to thrown out indiscriminately, and in return, the god's essence can surge into the mortal, resulting in more specific kinds of mutation, as well as an ever-increasing tide of the emotion that god embodies. Essentially, each and every Chaos Warrior, Knight, Champion, etc, each and every utterly-devoted servant of a given Chaos God is like a tiny version of the rift in the north, solely for the use of that Chaos God - emotions go out, energy comes in.


The rest of your stuff sounds alright to me, but in the end, the level of the big 4 abstraction and involvment detail seams to vary from what some of the others are listing. And in general the gist of the thread seams to be all conflict, emotions, and worshiping of minor gods/daemons feeds the Chaos gods, so the crushing of a Chaos Warband or incursion does boosts the 4 main powers who are then free to bring in more Daemons and give better gifts to the next people who worship them. Thus, Its not a cycle its a spiral.
As I said in my previous post, this is how I see it. It may be different from what everyone else sees, but the end result and how it manifests on the surface, is the same. My interpretation is much more neutral in regards to Chaos - the Chaos Gods aren't a malign intellect bent on utter annihilation (though their Daemons might well be), because that would attribute to them mortal consciousness, and I don't honestly think that a Chaos God can think in the same way a human can (again, this is where Daemons come in - their mortal-shaped existences allow them to understand and perceive the world in a manner more like the mortal servants of Chaos).


I wonder how the elves mangaed to reign in Chaos the first time if this is really how things work.
It hadn't had the chance to accumulate, there were fewer mortal servants of Chaos (Beastmen were brand new, and you didn't have all these humans to wander north and serve Chaos...), and the High Elves were at the peak of their civilisation. And the giant magical overflow drain they built into the world which allows the excess magic to pour out of the world harmlessly.

N0-1_H3r3
04-04-2007, 09:41
I find it interesting that there are eight of them. Upon reading it, I immediately thought of the eight-pointed star, the eight-fold path, the eight winds of magic, &c. So there is some basis for something like this to be legitimate. And it's also interesting to see how neatly the big four fit into this role already.

Khorne - 1. Anger
Nurgle - 5. Disgust
Slaanesh - 7. Curiosity
Tzeentch - 6. Surprise
I disagree, in Nurgle's case. Nurgle is the strangest one, because various writers have, in recent years, ended up having to establish an emotional context for Nurgle, who has until recently just been 'the plague god'.

Based on the list you've presented here, I'd actually categorise Nurgle, and the others, as being an amalgam of multiple emotions each.

Khorne, I'd describe as being Anger and Fear, oddly enough. Fear itself may not be all that evident, but consider the tendancies towards intimidation and needless brutality demonstrated by Khorne-worshippers. Put another way, it's the instinctive, animalistic and feral side of mortal nature - the flight-or-fight survival mechanism, heavily skewed towards the side of 'fight' for the devoted, and flight for those facing them.

Nurgle, I see more as Sadness and Acceptance - Sadness (in another form, as Despair) for the hopelessness of the world, and Acceptance for the inability to improve upon it, which is a state that all Nurgle worshippers eventually reach, even if they're dead when they reach it.

Slaanesh is Joy and Curiosity - the urge to have fun and experience joy, and the curiosity to seek out new forms of it. Curiosity is the means, but Joy is the purpose.

Tzeentch is then Disgust and Surprise - a dislike for the way things are, and the potential for limitless change of any kind.

Admittedly, Fear falls just as much in Nurgle (fear of death, fear of change, the tendancy to cling to tradition) as it does in Khorne (fear as a survival instinct), and there is some overlap, but then there's supposed to be. Disgust can be seen as Hatred, which falls as much into Khorne's domain as Tzeentch's. It'd take a while to work out the details and refine the concept, but my point is simple - of those eight emotional states, I can't find a single one that describes a Chaos God fully enough for my personal tastes.

This overlap is where the other gods form, and the biggest overlap is the concept of Chaos Undivided, where all of the 'big four' meet in the middle.

MvS
04-04-2007, 12:35
There is indeed a lot of overlap in the Big Four, and the list the Vicar has put forward is a example of this.

I think the core of the separate Gods is largely their domain only (yes I know we can all dig up the odd exception), but the other states mentioned in Vicar's list could do with a bit more attention I think.

Anger - Khorne
Acceptance - Nurgle
Joy - Slaanesh
Curiosity - Tzeentch

I had trouble deciding between sadness and acceptance as being more 'core' for Nurgle. Thinking about it, although sadness and despair are the most obvious and defining elements of Nurgle in his form as a nasty Daemon God, the Chaos Gods didn't begin as 'nasty' or daemonic for that matter. They were just vortices of a particular emotion within the Aethyr/Warp. Also, Nurgle himself was ever poorly conceived in his place as a manifestation of emotion (more on this later).

I suggest that Nurgle is all about accepting where you are and how you feel. Sadness and despair are routes to complete defeat in one's heart, true, but I think it just as likely that sadness could also lead to anger or even fury and hate. For me, sadness and despair are the most important routes on the path to the particular resigned and cynical despair of Nurgle, but not perhaps his very core...

Also, I say that curiosity, from this list at least, is closest to the core of Tzeentch, because curiosity is the most conscious impetus for change or progression in that list. It is the impetus to find out new things, to go that little bit further and ask just one more question.

Certainly there are other motivators that might make us want to change things, Anger, Sadness and Disgust could all give us an impetus for change in fact, but of that list I think curiosity is the most "in-control", deliberate and direct motivators for change.

As N0-1_H3r3 has said, curiosity is also a motivator for Slaanesh's followers, but the question for me is what is motivating their curiosity? The desire to experience a new sensation. The curiosity is a means to an end, where with Tzeentch the curiosity is an end in itself.

But then the other states in that list perhaps show some of the more obvious cross-overs between the gods.

Disgust - Tzeentch and the impetus/reason to change. Khorne and his reaction to weakness. Nurgle in the process of self-disgust that might lead toy despair and then acceptance.

Surprise - Tzeentch, a sudden change out of nowhere. Slaanesh, the pursuit of new, different and preferably surprising/shocking sensations. Khorne, as an instigator of the fight or flight mechanism that lies at the core of his being (well, fight at least and the will and desire to survive).

Sadness - Nurgle, certainly, for obvious reasons. Also sadness can definitely lead to fury. You walk in on your true love while she's fooling around in bed with your best friend, you'll be shocked, hurt, your heart breaks in a flood of sorrow, but then it's a small step to unbridled fury (Khorne) after that. But also sadness might be the cue for us to seek change in our lives (Tzeentch), you know, burn all those old photos of the ex, get a radical new haircut and new clothes and move to a new town, that sort of thing.

Fear - this is, I think, the glue that binds the Big Four together and a large part of what makes then so horrible for mortals to be on the receiving end of:

Khorne, the fear of defeat, failure, weakness and I suppose ultimately death, which is at the core of fight or flight. Hence the reason his followers are so obsessed with strength, martial skill and the cessation of all fear. Also, the desire to instil fear in others is a classic bully trick to boost his own confidence and give himself feelings of power and purpose by destroying the confidence of another and taking that person's power from them.

Tzeentch, fear of stasis, of stagnation, of 'what is' perhaps; the fear of our lives going nowhere, and the fear of failing in the dreams and ambitions that we think define us (I want to be an astronaut!).

Slaanesh, fear of discomfort, of boredom or tedium, the fear of sadness and depression, the fear of having no identity or pleasure I suppose. Why do you cut yourself to 'feel alive'? Perhaps because you are so desensitised to your life by the tedious and seemingly pointless grind of your daily existence.

Nurgle? Well Nurgle is the daddy of fear I think. Are you frightened of disease and sickness? Of growing old and decaying? Are you worried about not achieving anything but don't have the imagination or energy to pursue Slaanesh's or Tzeentch's paths? If so, I have a Nurglish psalm for you:

As all life is born to die, so all Men are born to decay. There can be no succour in this world. As the centuries drag past our cultures will fade, just as our bodies waste and our passions cool as the winter of life approaches.

In time our mightiest cities shall crack and crumble, and our lofty ideals shall grow weary and jaded. For what are our achievements if not the follies of pride and ignorance?

All shall be forgotten with the passing of years. There will be no exceptions.

For who amongst us can escape the predations of Time? Who amongst us is beyond the inevitability of Decay? That which is young can only grow old. That which is whole and sweet can only shrivel and sour. Nothing is permanent and nothing may remain without blemish. It is the fate of all things that they are bound to Time, and Time is the twin of Decay.

So bend a knee, all you of this world. Bend a knee all who would embrace their fate and thereby rise above it. Give up, give in; surrender yourselves to the true master of this world. Father Nurgle is our sovereign and Lord, and whether it be sooner or whether it be later, He will claim all in Time.


the question becomes, is Games Workshop's delineation of Chaos incomplete?
Most definitely.

The complexity of the Chaos Gods has come about through the progress of different GW writers, in the Studio and through GW's novels, each one picking up elements of the last one's ideas and colouring in the gaps. The emphasis for Nurgle was originally just on pestilence and to a lesser extent decay, not on any emotion - even though the nature of the gods was supposedly of the Id and from the human psyche and experiences of their world.

There are definite holes in the logic of some of the gods and their primacy, hence the idea that the Big Four draw to themselves emotions and concepts that are related to their core paradigm - so Khorne is anger, but also the concepts surrounding war, martial skill and violence, and possibly other emotions and concepts like abomination, hate, fury and so on.

Multifarious
04-04-2007, 17:08
As all life is born to die, so all Men are born to decay. There can be no succour in this world. As the centuries drag past our cultures will fade, just as our bodies waste and our passions cool as the winter of life approaches.

In time our mightiest cities shall crack and crumble, and our lofty ideals shall grow weary and jaded. For what are our achievements if not the follies of pride and ignorance?

All shall be forgotten with the passing of years. There will be no exceptions.

For who amongst us can escape the predations of Time? Who amongst us is beyond the inevitability of Decay? That which is young can only grow old. That which is whole and sweet can only shrivel and sour. Nothing is permanent and nothing may remain without blemish. It is the fate of all things that they are bound to Time, and Time is the twin of Decay.

So bend a knee, all you of this world. Bend a knee all who would embrace their fate and thereby rise above it. Give up, give in; surrender yourselves to the true master of this world. Father Nurgle is our sovereign and Lord, and whether it be sooner or whether it be later, He will claim all in Time.


Where do I sign up?

Bubble Ghost
04-04-2007, 17:40
On the topic of Gods... I'd like to point out that the Great Maw is the only one that physically exists all the time, outside the wastes. (Sigmar did too, but I think that was before his Godness kicked in...)

HA! Ogres: 1, The rest of Fantasy: 0

Double HA! Ogres 1, Bretonnians 1. Bretonnians win on penalties.:p [/can of worms]

re. the inevitability of Chaos destroying everything: I never quite got on with this. While I appreciate the theme, I prefer a bit of hope - and more importantly, a bit of uncertainty. I would be quite happy with it if it weren't for the air of smugness that somehow goes along with it, whether it's written in a book or a forum post. "Look at all the little people milling around in their pathetic lives, little do they know they are doomed! Doomed! Bwahahahaha!" That's just the authors, never mind the Chaos gods. I just think it's a bit undignified, and encourages a sense of detachment that's a little inappropriate for what is otherwise a pretty personal setting.

It's fine saying matter-of-factly that the Imperium is falling apart in 40K; loneliness, faceless bureaucracy and stagnation in general are some of its themes almost to the point of satire. But Warhammer has always been about the little guy, its entire cosmology a metaphor for internal struggles. Asking us to relate to the world's inhabitants in one breath but offhandedly reporting their destruction as though it's barely of consequence with the next doesn't quite work. Chaos' inevitable victory is a theme I think would work better as an implication than a statement. It's more fun, not to mention more appropriate for the way the Warhammer world is essentially one big person, if we're allowed to hide under the blankets and kid ourselves that the monsters aren't there. That's one thing I like about the current material - it never comes out and wallops you over the head with the fact that the world is doomed. It's not for artistic so much as commercial reasons of course, but meh.

CasaHouse
05-04-2007, 02:59
Huzzah! Our gods physically exist! *holds up hand for a high five from Bubble Ghost*

On topic: I've always had a problem with the concept of all Gods in the WH world being made up of Chaos, Is it such a stretch to say that a GOD could bend the rules?

the vicar
05-04-2007, 09:20
Anger - Khorne
Acceptance - Nurgle
Joy - Slaanesh
Curiosity - Tzeentch
I can buy these. When I think about it, Nurgle most certainly is more of the acceptance variety than sadness. He is most often described as the god of despair, but despair isn't a core emotion. Despair is a combination of sadness and acceptance. People don't despair if they believe that their situation can improve. Tzeentch, however, I would still have to say surprise fits best. As MvS said,
Certainly there are other motivators that might make us want to change things, Anger, Sadness and Disgust could all give us an impetus for change in fact, which is why I would have to say Surprise fits best. Because he isn't the god of curiosity. That's never how I've seen him. Often, as in the case of the Thousand Sons (sorry about the 40k reference, everybody), it is their curiosity that brings them to Tzeentch, true. But he is the god of change itself. Change not being an emotion however, but rather an environmental state that leads emotion, I believe that it is necessary to identify what emotion would best represent Tzeentch. Sure, curiosity leads to change, but it also leads to all sorts of other things. And like MvS said before, many other emotions can be the catalyst for change. However, change in its purest form, is surprising. The greater the change, the more surprising it is. I guess that I've always viewed Tzeentch as something of a trickster god, a god that does things for no better reason than to screw up the status quo; the patron of politicians and magicians, even. Surprise! It's Tzeentch. Happy April Fool's day. You thought that the world was fine the way it was? Surprise! Here's a buttload of money that you have to spend in thirty days. Surprise! The money's all gone, now you have none, sorry, no wait I'm not sorry, not even a little bit. I think that today you should have red hair. No, black hair. No, blonde, or red, or I have it, green. Definitely green hair. Maybe even no hair.

There are definite holes in the logic of some of the gods and their primacy, hence the idea that the Big Four draw to themselves emotions and concepts that are related to their core paradigm - so Khorne is anger, but also the concepts surrounding war, martial skill and violence, and possibly other emotions and concepts like abomination, hate, fury and so on.
Which is why, when I saw this list, I immediately liked it. Because no matter how many times that GW says that the big four are core emotions out of which flows everything else, it isn't true. Number one, there are more than four core emotions. Number two, going back to Nurgle, if he is the god of despair, despair isn't a core emotion.

So maybe GW should completely rewrite the way that Chaos is presented. Personally, I like the idea of it being emotion-based. It just needs fleshed out, and to have the internal contradictions removed.

N0-1_H3r3
05-04-2007, 09:31
Double HA! Ogres 1, Bretonnians 1. Bretonnians win on penalties.:p [/can of worms]
Ummm... Except the Ogre God is a lump of warpstone in a crater... and the Bretonnian Goddess isn't a deity, but is in fact a Wood Elf in disguise.


On topic: I've always had a problem with the concept of all Gods in the WH world being made up of Chaos, Is it such a stretch to say that a GOD could bend the rules?
I'm not sure what you're getting at here... in the place where the Gods of the Warhammer World exist, there are no rules... the rules only apply when influencing the material world, because the Aethyr adopts its rules and structure from there through close contact. However, such beings aren't necessarily gods in the same way as in any other fantasy setting, at least not as far as I see it.

They're all abstract lumps of emotion. Divine magic is regular magic wielded through the power of faith in a particular concept, rather than direct and personal manipulation of the Winds of Magic (which is Arcane magic); there really is nothing divine about it. The struggle in the Warhammer World is between the ordered existence of the material universe, against the formless abyss that conceived it (this also covers the removal of the Gods of Law from the setting - Warhammer stopped being Law-vs-Chaos a long time ago), and the 'gods' happen to be part of that abyss. Doesn't inherently mean they're bad, though - it seems that the 'weight' of the big four pushing against the fabric of reality (from the other side, of course) is the main factor contributing to the slow but inexorable downfall of the Old World. Everyone else's gods just kind of drift around randomly...

Only in death are there no emotions, no Chaos. Undeath could save the world...

Bubble Ghost
05-04-2007, 10:11
Ummm... Except the Ogre God is a lump of warpstone in a crater... and the Bretonnian Goddess isn't a deity, but is in fact a Wood Elf in disguise.

Don't make me do this "a deity is anyone who is considered a deity" argument again. I've had enough for one year. I'll just say that yes, the fact that the Bretonnian goddess is "a wood elf in disguise" is what I was referring to, except that she isn't in disguise and simply not being an aethyric entity does not mean she cannot be a deity. Same goes for the Great Maw. It may be a lump of rock in a crater but it's a deity to the ogres.

CasaHouse
05-04-2007, 15:52
Hasn't the great maw been described as a Sarlaac-ish giant maw with teeth running down as far as the eye can see? I fail to see how that description means "Funny glowing rock". Just curious... If there's a more reliable source of fluff on the Great Maw than the Ogre background, I'd like to read it.

-Casa

Bubble Ghost
05-04-2007, 16:02
No, you're right. But I think N0-1_H3r3 was deliberately describing it in a dismissive way to emphasise his view that it doesn't count as a god.

N0-1_H3r3
05-04-2007, 16:11
Hasn't the great maw been described as a Sarlaac-ish giant maw with teeth running down as far as the eye can see? I fail to see how that description means "Funny glowing rock". Just curious... If there's a more reliable source of fluff on the Great Maw than the Ogre background, I'd like to read it.
The crater that the Maw is in was formed by a lump of warpstone striking the land there... warpstone does strange things to the surroundings...

CasaHouse
05-04-2007, 16:24
The crater that the Maw is in was formed by a lump of warpstone striking the land there... warpstone does strange things to the surroundings...

And the source of this wisdom is?

N0-1_H3r3
05-04-2007, 16:32
And the source of this wisdom is?
Precedent. Every big malefic presence actually on the surface of the Warhammer world is intrinsically linked to warpstone, either by using it, hoarding it, or simply it landing.

Beyond that, I couldn't tell you.

Ursca
05-04-2007, 17:31
Also, the Maw is in the centre of a great desert of Warpstone, created when the meteorite crashed.
That would suggest that the meteorite was made (at least in part) of warpstone.

ghost21
10-04-2007, 02:40
So does this mean the elf gods like Isha Kuronous and Khain are minor aspects of chaos, becuase they where here long before the first incursian of chaos, and all the embodiments of isha are orderly


to play devils advocate:-
but they worship or fear khaine? he existed back in the ancient times

personly i dont like the whole are and arnt formule of the gods its lazy" oh look even good adds to evil your never gonna win cus you draw on the same emotions and ultimatley feed your enemy"

there should be at leat 1 god or a few who is seperate from that cannon sutch as a god of light or somthing (i supose the old ones could fit in here or sigmar but im not too sure bout him)

its cannon yes, and ok i have to accept it but in my mind i can see why its done the way it is even if i dont like it

p.s. nagash he could be conciderd the god of the undead and if nagash did wipe all life the chaos gods would just look for a new world to conquer

Revlid
10-04-2007, 07:31
Also, the Maw is in the centre of a great desert of Warpstone, created when the meteorite crashed.
That would suggest that the meteorite was made (at least in part) of warpstone.

Most meteorites are, breaking off as they do from Morrslieb.

khorne666
10-04-2007, 13:47
KHAIN IS KHORNE!!!!! Sorry for that outburst but it even says it in the freaking rulebook. To be honest the way gods are created by belief in them in the warhammer is pretty much identical to my belief on how gods exist in the real world.

RobC
10-04-2007, 14:28
KHAIN IS KHORNE!!!!!No he's not. Khaine is not Khorne. And what is this book you speak of?

ryng_sting
10-04-2007, 14:42
personly i dont like the whole are and arnt formule of the gods its lazy" oh look even good adds to evil your never gonna win cus you draw on the same emotions and ultimatley feed your enemy/
It's just a little more complicated than that.

The Chaos gods grew from basic emotions, but grew to ecompass others, and related concepts. Before they reached awareness, they had to lean on those people more inclined to them to get a bigger bite of what they needed - even to the point of ignoring other people. Same applies to the ideas and concepts the other gods stand for. As they are more refined, the big four get only a trickle, when what they want is a waterfall. Every bar-room brawl doesn't make Khorne invincible; every weeping child doesn't make Nurgle invincible.



there should be at leat 1 god or a few who is seperate from that cannon sutch as a god of light or somthing (i supose the old ones could fit in here or sigmar but im not too sure bout him)

Sigmar and the Dwarf Ancestor Gods can be considered 'seperate': they are an exception to the normal process of gestation within the aethyr. (See Liber Chaotica and Liber Necris.) Remember that the Chaos gods are no more 'evil' or 'good' than the rain or the wind: they simply are. Good and evil are human value judgements. But the fact that the gods descend from Chaos does not diminish their power or their independence, any more than the dirt under your boots does to you. Unless, of course, you live in an earthquake zone.

khorne666
10-04-2007, 14:55
No he's not. Khaine is not Khorne. And what is this book you speak of?

In the background section of the current rulebook in the dark elves section i believe. It does only say that some scholars debate it but given the very vivid similarities (and I personally can't find any difference) I think it is fair to say that they are right.

Malifact
15-04-2007, 17:20
Well, from what I gather, Khaine is just an aspect of Khorne. A smaller part of the larger "diety".

And also, seeing as that is from the point of view of the scholars, it's probably not accurate. It's one of those things that GW doesn't confirm just to keep us having discussons like this. :)

Revlid
15-04-2007, 17:55
In the background section of the current rulebook in the dark elves section i believe. It does only say that some scholars debate it but given the very vivid similarities (and I personally can't find any difference) I think it is fair to say that they are right.

Shouldn't that be khorne888? ;)

In any case, it doesn't say that, and never has. There most certainly are differences, in much the same way as there are differences between Ulric and Sigmar, or Grugni and Grimnir. So no, I don't think it is fair to say that the non-existant scholars you quote are right.

Paviel
16-04-2007, 14:38
Not all of this is relevant to the whole Khaine/Khorne issue, but parts of it are. On the Black Library Forums there is a thread about the Darkblade series (It's in the spoiler forum, so click the below link at your own risk), and apparently it confirms that there is at least some connection. Make of Mike Lee's comments what you will.

http://forum.blacklibrary.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10890&whichpage=6

khorne666
16-04-2007, 15:41
@Revlid: Actually it is a mirror of my real world religion, Khorne and elements of Slaanesh are exactly my view of Satan in the real world.

Brother Siccarius
16-05-2007, 20:45
I really think this entire thing is based off of a wrong assumption. If all gods are chaos, then that does not automatically mean that they are part of the most well known chaos gods. Remember that there are other powers out there that are not the Big Four. They're mentioned whenever the chaos gods are mentioned in a larger sense than describing the big four. There have always been other gods that form from chaos, they've just been ignored for so long by everyone that no one seems to remember that there's more than four.

A Powerful Demon or Demon Prince of the Undivided powers could and often are worshiped by tribes of northmen, and they give their blessings like another god might. Be'Lakor is powerful evidence of this as he spent a good amount of time as the Dark Master collecting powers and artifacts in order to increase his own power, all the while teaching his followers magic that he created and tapped.


Although, you do not need to worship under the name of a certain chaos god in order to worship them, as is evidenced by the fact that different races and tribes of Northmen have different names for the big four.

Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind
02-12-2007, 22:10
Sorry for the HUGE necromancing of this thread, but it's an interesting topic, so...

The way I see it, the four greater Chaos Gods represent the most basic emotions that will eventually destroy order and sanity and return everything to Chaos. The other Gods are more 'refined' and go further towards the order side of the warp... however the further away from the all-encompassing, more basic emotions the smaller and less wide their role is; not decreasing their power, but making the 'window' through which they can influence the real world smaller.

I see it like a Pyramid; at the bottom we have four corners, representing the basic emotions that are the four greater gods of Chaos. Daemons are merely 'avatars' through which the God's can manipulate the mortal plane. Ie not actual true warp gods.

Then there are Gods who are clearly more refined, accurate depictions of more complex emotions, such as Murder in Khaine's case. While these Gods are distinctly aligned with one, two or even three of the 'base' emotions they are not in any way influenced by or under the control of the big 4; they are merely more subtle emotions grown from the base four.

And the higher up the pyramid you get, the more 'refined' and 'orderly' the definitions of the God's get. While the base, the chaotic side represents the four primitive emotions that will lead to self-destruction, the 'point' is the orderly side, not necessarily good but well defined and 'safe'.

I guess my point is that the closer to the tip of the pyramid, the closer to order your god is, the less influence they will have in the mortal realm.

So is this roughly accurate? It doesn't conflict with any of the official sources I've seen in this topic or elsewhere.

theunwantedbeing
02-12-2007, 22:23
Yes they are all chaos gods effectively.
But they are all differing aspects of the chaos gods and they work in differing ways being brought about by different emotions and ideals.

There were no gods before chaos appeared.
But all gods being chaos isnt a bad thing, all magic is chaos for example.

Chaos is a part of everything, but everything is not chaos....sortof.

feintstar
04-12-2007, 14:17
HOw's this one - Chaos is in everything, but not all Chaos is Evil...

Uh oh, in come the Dnd Nerds

Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind
04-12-2007, 15:21
Uh oh, in come the Dnd Nerds

You mean me? I don't even play DnD :p

Nargrakhan
04-12-2007, 15:44
Well, from what I gather, Khaine is just an aspect of Khorne. A smaller part of the larger "diety".


What bothers me on this thought is (what I humbly see as) two major factors that prevent Khaine from being Khorne, or an aspect of him:

#1: Khorne is against assassinations, because it goes against the ideology of "battlefield honor" - however Khaine is FOR assassinations. Khorne would look down on killing the enemy general with an assassin - since he's also in a strange sense a god of honor - but Khaine would be all for it, since the slaughter would be easier.

#2: Khaine has nothing against spellcraft and supports it. Khorne hates it, hates it, hates it.

RobC
04-12-2007, 15:48
#2: Khaine has nothing against spellcraft and supports it. Khorne hates it, hates it, hates it.Not quite. Khorne is against using magic to win fights, but he can't be completely against magic or he'd struggle to have his daemons summoned.

As for Khaine and Khorne... they're distinct, but share overlapping spheres of influence. It's just not going to get more simple than that, really.

Paviel
04-12-2007, 15:54
HOw's this one - Chaos is in everything, but not all Chaos is Evil...

Uh oh, in come the Dnd Nerds

Hey, even DnD nerds realize that there is such a thing as a "Chaotic Good" alignment...

Arnizipal
04-12-2007, 20:06
#1: Khorne is against assassinations, because it goes against the ideology of "battlefield honor" - however Khaine is FOR assassinations. Khorne would look down on killing the enemy general with an assassin - since he's also in a strange sense a god of honor - but Khaine would be all for it, since the slaughter would be easier.

That's probably where Khaine overlaps with sneaky Tzeentch.


#2: Khaine has nothing against spellcraft and supports it. Khorne hates it, hates it, hates it.
Khaine doesn't particularly like magic either. In his aspect of the Steel Panther he even wards it off. But then being the Thousand-Faced god of murder will give you one hell of a case of multiple personalities :D


At any rate, the important thing to remember is that while gods may overlap, they have no direct control over eachother.

Nargrakhan
04-12-2007, 20:44
That's probably where Khaine overlaps with sneaky Tzeentch.

Aye. And this is what I think most, "OMG! Khaine is Khorne!" people overlook.

Khaine is murder and bloodlust - but he does things Khorne finds reprehensive. Not just assassinations: backstabbing and treason too. But then no one goes screaming, "OMG! Khaine is Tzeentch trying to act like Khorne!" ;)



Not quite. Khorne is against using magic to win fights, but he can't be completely against magic or he'd struggle to have his daemons summoned.


Khaine doesn't particularly like magic either. In his aspect of the Steel Panther he even wards it off.

True enough, now that you both mention it... but Khaine seems to brush off (at least in my interpretation), that he's more "at peace" with magic than Khorne ever will be. Far more...

I guess it's the whole "Witches" thing... traditional thinking makes me think witches = spellcaster... even if that's wrong in the case of WHFB. :p

khorne666
04-12-2007, 21:08
I guess it's the whole "Witches" thing... traditional thinking makes me think witches = spellcaster... even if that's wrong in the case of WHFB. :p

Wrong in the case of real life too, just pointing that out.

Nargrakhan
04-12-2007, 21:26
Wrong in the case of real life too, just pointing that out.

True that. Just blame it on years of generic D&D campaigns, fairytale bias, and anime pollution. ;)

WhiteZombie
29-04-2008, 13:19
[QUOTE=N0-1_H3r3;1439565]
That's fine, but I don't honestly see it as the Chaos Gods themselves having a great deal of control over the actual details -[QUOTE]

I interpret them having an active role by the mutations, demonic gifts, and inclusions of diety aligned demonic units in war bands..

typically, when someone is in excess of a great powers (or even in some cases a lesser powers) emotion, without any other religious 'shielding' (from the worship of a minor diety like sigmar, for example), the individual will start to hear whispers. typically, the fluff and background stories identify them as daemons urging the individual to commit more acts that will feed the power in question.

considering the scientific nature of the way the realm of chaos and its dietys work, its pretty viable that the whispers are simply elements of the powers influence resonating with the individuals emotions heavily, their magical nature causing hallucinations that the individual would deem real. its very possible that when an individual starts to draw more and more attention from a powers influence (for example, rises to power in an army of the chosen powers), then its hallucinations may become manifest, in the same way the gods become manifest in the warp from larger amount of energies sent to them by worshippers. it could well be that the gifts (and punishments) a worshipper receives vary not because of the gods attention in a literal way, but because of the individuals own sense of worth or defeat being saturated in the gods otherworldly power being linked so immediately to their psyche. of course the individual doesnt know this, and would believe hes talking to a daemon and getting rewarded by his god no matter what anyone says or does. ever tried to tell a devout christian that god doesnt exist? ;)

which can also be true of daemons: when a daemon is summoned, it is typically through channeling the powers of worshipping sorcerors into a host. which, in turn, means that a daemon needs the emotions of many followers to resonate in tandem for their belief in the entity to become manifest. of course, these entities have their own personalities, but its safe to say these personalities are made from the amalgamation of all of those believers who lent their power (and/or died) to summon it. a lord who channels his own personal whispers into the minds and beliefs and doctrine of his followers, or even through him/herself, could see those whispers born into reality by the combined powers of their 'faith'.

this could work with anything really. as an example, if someone wanted to summon an avatar of morr, they probably could, but of course he wouldnt be evil or malevolent or bloodthirsty. he'd probably have the personality his summoners and believers EXPECT him to have. when the skaven grey seers summoned an avatar of the horned rat (apart from the fact that it killed skaven in their thousands most likely), it was exactly as they would expect it to be, a baleful and terrifying monstrosity that detailed how they could reach its (read: the skavens) will of the great ascendancy. the same way that emotions and belief form gods in the warp, the same power (with the aid of the winds of magic) forms them in reality.

of course, daemons of the warp manifested merely by the power flowing through the gates of chaos itself or those created by an avatar of a god is a slightly different matter. as they are raw manifestations embodying the very meaning and being of the god, theyd obviously be much more primal than one based on the thoughts and beliefs of a sentient creature. chances are though, daemons wandering the wastes might just be physical manifestations of the fears and thoughts of chaos warriors wandering the wastes because of the saturation of the winds of magic there, too.

those are my theories anyway :evilgrin:

Milney
29-04-2008, 14:08
the evil four

CHAOS IS NOT EVIL!

When will people get this through thier heads?

Chaos is... chaos.

stormblade
03-05-2008, 09:31
CHAOS IS NOT EVIL!

When will people get this through thier heads?

Chaos is... chaos.

chaos isn't chaos either.

CommanderCax
03-05-2008, 10:11
CHAOS IS NOT EVIL!

Chaos is evil for sure...


...and Chaos is also good. And everything in between and beyond and on top and multiplied with sevenhundredthousandthreehundredninetytwo and and and...

Chaos is potential. It is potential of everything and nothing.

Richter Kless
03-05-2008, 11:16
Oh dear, the old ´SHADES OF GREY!!11!!´ arguement.

Chaos is quite clearly evil. Just as the High Elves and the Empire are quite clearly good.
But being good doesn´t instantly mean that everyone is of the holier than thou type, just as evil doesn´t always mean you have to be amoral bastard.

Hellebore
03-05-2008, 14:56
Oh dear, the old ´SHADES OF GREY!!11!!´ arguement.

Chaos is quite clearly evil. Just as the High Elves and the Empire are quite clearly good.
But being good doesn´t instantly mean that everyone is of the holier than thou type, just as evil doesn´t always mean you have to be amoral bastard.

Define good and define evil. As they are not absolute values of the universe you cannot definitively say that X is good and Y is evil.

The elves are evil to the goblins because dey is scary.

Hellebore

Lijacote
03-05-2008, 15:30
Oh dear, the old ´SHADES OF GREY!!11!!´ arguement.

Chaos is quite clearly evil. Just as the High Elves and the Empire are quite clearly good.
But being good doesn´t instantly mean that everyone is of the holier than thou type, just as evil doesn´t always mean you have to be amoral bastard.

What are good and evil if not "human" concepts? Really. Sure, Chaos is as evil comes, but only because there is no evil. There's only what we perceive to be.
Chaos has no choice, chaos is. If anything, the men of the Empire could be argued as being more evil than daemons. They have a choice, daemons do not.

Curufew
03-05-2008, 15:32
Are there daemons from the "Good" warp entities ? Like Daemons of Verena, Sigmar and stuff like that

Richter Kless
03-05-2008, 15:50
Define good and define evil. As they are not absolute values of the universe you cannot definitively say that X is good and Y is evil.

The elves are evil to the goblins because dey is scary.


What are good and evil if not "human" concepts? Really. Sure, Chaos is as evil comes, but only because there is no evil. There's only what we perceive to be.
Chaos has no choice, chaos is. If anything, the men of the Empire could be argued as being more evil than daemons. They have a choice, daemons do not.

Than the Sith aren't evil either and neither is Voldemort, Sauron or Satan.
Of course evil is a human concept, but it were humans who thought up all these fictional universes.
Voldemort is by all means considered evil, but by your definitions I could say he is simply misunderstood.
Sauron considers himself the rightfull ruler of the world.
Satan got fed up with working for God all the time. (much like Horus from 40K)
And the Sith simply see the Jedi as fools who do not use their full potential.

In the real world we don't have evil. (though some like to consider the nazis as such) But Warhammer is a fictional setting, designed by humans. And these humans gave the characterristics of a person that we associate with evil, to fractions like Chaos and the Dark Elves.

By your definition, no work of fiction has evil in it, because everything comes down to points of view.


Damn, why are my posts always a complete mess.

Bubble Ghost
03-05-2008, 17:00
I get what you're saying here, Richter, but I think you're mistaken, at least as regards Warhammer. Part of the point of it as a setting is that it actually addresses the moral ambiguity of real life, rather than using the "x bad guy is Evil™ because his armour is spiky" approach.

Anyway, regardless of the above, Chaos itself is just a force, like gravity. It's the Chaos worshippers you've got to worry about. Many of these are evil sumbitches, it has to be said, although lots of them at least perform what we would think of as evil acts because they believe it's the right thing to do. Kind of like the Crusades, or suicide bombers (neither of which I am in any way suggesting to be good things).

As for the Empire being "good", it's just a portrayal of a typical western human culture. Even if the idea of summing up hundreds of thousands of people at once as good or evil weren't innately ridiculous, the Empire is no more good or evil than any real life country. Like ours, its culture has what it likes to think of as a broadly moral outlook, but that's as far as you can take it. Reasons as above.

stormblade
04-05-2008, 07:40
What are good and evil if not "human" concepts? Really. Sure, Chaos is as evil comes, but only because there is no evil. There's only what we perceive to be.
Chaos has no choice, chaos is. If anything, the men of the Empire could be argued as being more evil than daemons. They have a choice, daemons do not.

What are 'few and many' or 'now and than' or even 'human and not human' but human concepts.

MvS
04-05-2008, 08:37
Chaos itself is just a force, like gravity
Or like radioactive fallout - more obviously dangerous and downright lethal in most circumstances. :)

Paviel
05-05-2008, 05:10
Or like radioactive fallout - more obviously dangerous and downright lethal in most circumstances.

Gravity is obviously dangerous and downright lethal if you have too much of it. For example, if you fall 1,000 feet without a parachute, the impact WILL kill you. Or, to use a less extreme example, even a five-foot fall will bruise and scrape you.

Of course, we couldn't live without gravity either, just as we couldn't live without Chaos. (You try living without any freedom whatsoever, without any change whatsoever... that's what a world without Chaos would be like: Nothing but stagnation.)

soulcrusher
05-05-2008, 09:08
correct chaos is chaos however its is often seen as destructive and barabaric to the forces of good, so they interpretate it as evil, really the only evil army is dark elves, with skaven a close second.

MvS
05-05-2008, 09:47
Gravity is obviously dangerous and downright lethal if you have too much of it. For example, if you fall 1,000 feet without a parachute, the impact WILL kill you. Or, to use a less extreme example, even a five-foot fall will bruise and scrape you.

I chose radiation as an example because it is a good analogy for how Chaos effects the mortal world, and indeed Rick Priestly's own. Even if you plummet to your death from a cliff, this isn't too much gravity, it is just the correct amount and you've just been unlucky enough to fall from a great height.

Radiation on the other hand will effect you whether you know it or not or whether you see it coming or not. It is silent, effusive and deadly in large enough amounts.


Of course, we couldn't live without gravity either, just as we couldn't live without Chaos.
Indeed.

We cannot live without radiation either. It is the concentration and type of radiation that matters though. If an analogy can be drawn between a 'healthy' amount of aethyr and a healthy amount and type of radiation, it would be just the presence of change for the aethyr's influence and the sun's natural radiation.

At the other extreme we would have vast quantities of aethyr leaking into the world, or perhaps even direct Chaos taint, which would be comparable to a broken nuclear reactor pumping lots of harmful radiation and radioactive dust into the surrounding environment. Indeed if the aethyr, or 'magic', IS Chaos tainted, there is no 'safe' amount or safe way to manipulate it or bathe in it. It is always dangerous and corrosive, whether that corrosion is physical, mental, to the soul or all three...

isidril93
08-05-2008, 18:30
but wait...if gods are all part of chaos then here are some questions
what is asuryan...he is not a feeling...he is justice, a ying yang sort of guy?
in 40k it said that slaanesh killes most other the eldar(elven in WFB) gods...how can he kill them if they are part of other gods?
and it said that in the times of aenarion, when the gates collapsed, the gods walked the earth...what about that?

Milney
08-05-2008, 18:51
in 40k it said that slaanesh killes most other the eldar(elven in WFB) gods...how can he kill them if they are part of other gods?


Elves != Eldar

Since the new era of 6th and 7th Edition fantasy all ties (or link-ins) between the two world have been removed by GW.

Orcs are a sexual reproducing species; Orks are a sporulating fungii.

etc, etc.

It's why Zoats, Slaan (from 40k) and the like have all been removed from 40k fiction and the same true of certain fantasy stories.

Arnizipal
08-05-2008, 19:08
but wait...if gods are all part of chaos then here are some questions
what is asuryan...he is not a feeling...he is justice, a ying yang sort of guy?
in 40k it said that slaanesh killes most other the eldar(elven in WFB) gods...how can he kill them if they are part of other gods?
and it said that in the times of aenarion, when the gates collapsed, the gods walked the earth...what about that?
The "smaller" gods are vortexes formed within the vortexes of the big four. These vortexes may overlap (eg, part Tzeentch and part Khorne) and are usally more specific than the broad emotion the big four represent.

Asuryan stands for justice. This is Nurgle (stay within the rules, don't change, protection for the weak) and may even be part Khorne in case of bloody punishment for breaking the law.

Gods can "die" through lack of worship and I guess potentially their manifestation the Warp/Aethyr could be devoured by a larger entity. Deamons seem to do this all the time.

Aenarion was an avatar for both Khaine and Asuryan. He was the living incarnation of those gods - which means they were walking the earth through him.

Orcs are a sexual reproducing species; Orks are a sporulating fungii.

According to the 7th edition BRB, Orcs are spores too. :(

the_raptor
08-05-2008, 22:57
Oh dear, the old ´SHADES OF GREY!!11!!´ arguement.

Chaos is quite clearly evil. Just as the High Elves and the Empire are quite clearly good.

Oh, you mean the High Elves who mostly can't be bothered helping people unless it is somehow useful to the High Elven fight against Chaos or their dark cousins? Altruism isn't exactly a typical Elvish trait.

Or the Empire which routinely tortures and murders people for being "Ebil Chaos Worshippers" (eg people who don't follow Imperial propaganda, people that know what Chaos really is, guys who look weird, old women that have lots of cats, people who say they have seen Skaven, that bloke who said "maybe we shouldn't just take the witch hunters word for it?")? The Empire is based on middle ages to renaissance Europe. Honestly if you went back in time and experienced those cultures, you would swear the Nazi's were actually a really nice bunch of guys and just misunderstood.

If you actually believe that "Chaos = ebil, Empire = gud" you are either not even reading the damn fluff, or shouldn't be reading it. The Empire are humans, with all the good and bad, and Chaos is humanity taken to the extreme. It is supposed to be a reflection of humanity, not a random bad guy for the heroic heroes to defeat.

StormCrow
09-05-2008, 01:39
"There is only one gate, and only one Realm that lies beyond it. It is true that the plains of darkness stand open before you, but also, and at the same time, the endless tiers of light stretch up above you.
Mortals see so much, but understand so little. For as much as the divine moulds the mortal realms to fit it's purposes, so too dothe Mortal Realms mould the Divine through their actions and aspirations. You look into the aethyr for proof of Light or a fear of finding Dark, yet the Aethyr is is neither light nor Dark, except when Mortals make it so."

-Liber Tzeentch

RobC
09-05-2008, 09:05
Two things:

Please stop using 'amusing' Internet speak to disparage the arguments of others. If you can't do it in plain English, don't do it at all. Exclaiming "SHADES OF GREY!!11!!" does not an argument make; it's the Internet equivalent of mimicking what someone else has said in a silly voice.

StormCrow: I wouldn't take the entirety of your quote at face value. There clearly are two warp gates, one at either pole.

MvS
09-05-2008, 14:20
Um... actually, he can take it at face value, it's just that the reference is out of context, or perhaps a bit unclear. :(

The reference was to Richter being able to see Heaven and Hell in the same 'place'. It wasn't meant to be referring to the physical presence of only one collapsed gate at Warhammer World's northern pole. It was intended to refer to there being just one Warp/Aethyr/Empyrean/Chaos Realm/Sea of Souls.

In the Warhammer mythos, all the good, bad and indifferent go into the Aethyr after they die, and all gods, daemons and angels are found in there. I was trying to show the difference between the nature of the Warp in Warhammer imagery and differentiate it from the Heaven and Hell binary of our predominantly Christian theological views.

Heaven and Hell may be separate spiritual domains in 'real world' theology, but they are not in GW theology, if that makes sense. I admit the piece might not have been clear enough though. :s

RobC
09-05-2008, 14:22
Um... actually, he can take it at face value, it's just that the reference is out of context, or perhaps a bit unclear. :(
Ta for clarifying, MvS. I was concerned we were going to enter another debate on whether there is a warpgate at the southern pole, that's all...

isidril93
09-05-2008, 14:43
All of this is confusing me!!!

How is Asuryan part of Nurgle????

And i think that it is not chaos that is evil but the followers and the 4 gods
i like to think that chaos is like cells, you know...those tiny things that your body is made up of
now cells are not evil...they are just cell, multiplying, moving and all the other thing that cells do
but cells can either make a person who is good or who is bad, even though those cells are not evil

like how chaos can make two gods of war (more in fact but anyway)
khorne and ulric are both war gods(the same chaos that makes them) but what they stand for is different
khorne stands for an everlasting war where there will be bloodshed forever
ulric stands for war in order to stop the bloodshed in the future

see what i mean?

khorne warriors fight in order to kill...which is their joy
ulric warriors fight in order to prevent harm being done to the weak and innocent...in the end they want peace

they do the same thing but their reason is different...that is the difference between gods

Arnizipal
09-05-2008, 14:49
All of this is confusing me!!!

How is Asuryan part of Nurgle????

Hop over to the first pages of this thread and all shall be revealed ;)



khorne warriors fight in order to kill...which is their joy
ulric warriors fight in order to prevent harm being done to the weak and innocent...in the end they want peace

they do the same thing but their reason is different...that is the difference between gods
That's not really a good example. Ulric dispises the weak and actively punishes those of his followers who can't stand up for themselves.

I'll give a more detailed explanation when I get back home from work.

isidril93
09-05-2008, 15:16
Ulric might despise the weak but i dont think that he wants his followers to slay the innocent and defenceless lime women and children (human...druchii, asrai etc...have very powerful women)

Arnizipal
10-05-2008, 01:50
But Ulric isn't a good of mindless slaughter. Khorne doesn't care who or what you kill, as long as blood keeps flowing.

Ulric is much more specialised. He still advocates brutal close combat, but he does so within a certain set of rules, which makes him part of (but not totally like) Khorne.

Also note that Khorne has no direct control over Ulric whatsoever.

isidril93
10-05-2008, 20:41
ok imight be staring to understand it, just got the new daemons book anyway and there is quite a bit of fluff about the gods

stormblade
10-05-2008, 21:06
ok imight be staring to understand it, just got the new daemons book anyway and there is quite a bit of fluff about the gods

All the confusion is caused by bad phrasing. Ulric hasn't got much to do with the Khorne whom the Northerners worship but the fact that they are both a part of the concept of Combat which is reflected in the Aethyr.

kylsnik ironhead
13-05-2008, 02:55
Mork and Gork arn't part of the warp they got there own place

Kamenwati
13-05-2008, 04:11
Gotta wonder about the Tomb Kings gods though. They were the first humans to have a civilization advanced enough to bother with an organized religion. And despite the fact their civilization is "dead" they still churn out enough power for their worshippers to use channel power from them. I can buy the theory that all gods are inherently creatures of the Immaterium (to use the 40k term) though not neccessarily of Chaos.

And an earlier point about souls being gone or absorbed upon death doesn't seem to hold completely true. Many of the Tomb Kings had remained intombed for centuries of even millennium before being awakened by Nagash's magic.

Oh well, its all just fun stories to use as a background to our glorious battles. No need to take them too seriously.

RobC
13-05-2008, 09:09
Mork and Gork arn't part of the warp they got there own placeNo, they're warp entities like all the gods. They're just very distinct.

hwd
13-05-2008, 10:04
For my penny here we go...

Chaos doesn't mean evil. The origin of the concept is the Ancient Greek concept of Kaos. Here Kaos is the first God who gave birth to the other gods who bred etc etc etc. In my mind Chaos is a similar thing. Chaos is the warp, the original 'God' from which all the other gods are made.

Chaos (in my view) gives birth to the very basic gods, created before sentient life and thus representing the most base instincts. For example without thinking or knowing about it a dog can become angry, afraid etc. With the coming of sentient life, the elves dwarfs etc can think about their emotions and as such different aspects of each of these base instincts are understood and contemplated. This requires a new set of gods, the third tier, in which the named Warhammer World gods lie.

For example Khorne, Khaine and Ulric are both aspects of Anger. Khorne is rage. Khaine is a cold malicious anger. Ulric is a more controlled anger. None fit into the other but all three fit into Anger.

Similarly Nurgle and Morr are both aspects of Death. Nurgle is the despairing and 'ugly' side of death. Morr is the cleaner and more celebratory side of death. Neither can be part of the other but both are part of Death.

This is the way I see it. Hopefully I've put it down in a way that you can understand what I mean, even if you disagree!

Hwd

CommanderCax
13-05-2008, 10:06
No, they're warp entities like all the gods. They're just very distinct.

Sure?

In my view Gork and Mork are not deities (ie. warpstorms) within the aethyr as the Greenskin emotion seem to be not drawn there. The entities known as Gork and Mork can take shape here and there (at least more or less (eg. Fist of Gork, Mork's Warpath)) when enough Greenskin emotion (ie. Waaagh) saturates the area. Just similar to an area like Athel Loren, but bound to a horde of Greenskins instead of an area of land. Would make them unique in a way...

hwd
13-05-2008, 10:15
Sure?

In my view Gork and Mork are not deities (ie. warpstorms) within the aethyr as the Greenskin emotion seem to be not drawn there. The entities known as Gork and Mork can take shape here and there (at least more or less (eg. Fist of Gork, Mork's Warpath)) when enough Greenskin emotion (ie. Waaagh) saturates the area. Just similar to an area like Athel Loren, but bound to a horde of Greenskins instead of an area of land. Would make them unique in a way...

Ah but surely when Mork's foot comes down and stamps on people it is the same as when a Warrior Priest lays down some soulfire. Both are a simple physical manifestation of the power of the god, created purely from belief.

Arnizipal
13-05-2008, 11:26
And an earlier point about souls being gone or absorbed upon death doesn't seem to hold completely true. Many of the Tomb Kings had remained intombed for centuries of even millennium before being awakened by Nagash's magic.

Oh well, its all just fun stories to use as a background to our glorious battles. No need to take them too seriously.
They were specially treated with binding rituals (much like those of barrow wights) so their souls would stay in their bodies until the time when a decent 'cure' for death was found. Unfortunatly Nagash decided to wake them a little early. Now the Tomb Kings are stuck in dried out corpses instead of rejuvenated living bodies. Which is why they are so pissed at Nagash and the living general.

RobC
13-05-2008, 12:06
Sure?

Fairly sure, but since the background changes with seemingly every release, who knows for certain?

FWIW, the spells you mention aren't actual manifestations of the gods, but a magic spell created by the shamans which gives the appearance of said appendage.

The emotion thing is more complicated and contentious to explain, but if you imagine each greenskin as being slightly magical (i.e. they have an innate connection with the warp), then their emotions can directly draw power from the warp, which is soaked up and directed by the local sponge, er, shaman.

Even then, they're still unique. No other race is effectively 100% psychic.

Richter Kless
13-05-2008, 13:11
Oh, you mean the High Elves who mostly can't be bothered helping people unless it is somehow useful to the High Elven fight against Chaos or their dark cousins? Altruism isn't exactly a typical Elvish trait.

Most of the Lord of the Rings Elves also can´t be bothered with the whole struggle for Middle-Earth, yet they are still considered good.
Being good doesn´t mean that you are not allowed to have your own agenda. I persnonally don´t even know what you can and can´t do to be good.
As far as I can see, the Elves are helping the humans in their defence against Chaos. They teached the humans magic. They will answer to distress calls. And they allow the humans to go by their own ways.
I don´t really see anything bad about the Elves, you sure you don´t mean the Eldar?


Or the Empire which routinely tortures and murders people for being "Ebil Chaos Worshippers" (eg people who don't follow Imperial propaganda, people that know what Chaos really is, guys who look weird, old women that have lots of cats, people who say they have seen Skaven, that bloke who said "maybe we shouldn't just take the witch hunters word for it?")?

You do realise that these ´ebil Chaos Worshippers´ (ebil?) are an actual threat towards the humans and their way of life. We aren´t talking here about persecuting Jews because of some bias, nor are we talking here about persecuting protestants, because the Pope wanted it. We are talking here about people who will commit terrible crimes for their masters, who will help the enemy in taking over your land, who will summon Daemons to butcher your people. I would say that the Empire has all the reasons to hunt them down.
By your logic, America was evil during the Cold War, because it persecuted Communists who helped the enemy. Now before you bring it up, I know that alot of innocent people were persecuted as well, but I do hope you get my point.


The Empire is based on middle ages to renaissance Europe. Honestly if you went back in time and experienced those cultures, you would swear the Nazi's were actually a really nice bunch of guys and just misunderstood.

Wait what? I don´t know what history you´ve been reading, but the Middle Ages and the Renaissance period weren´t that bad. Sure the church had a monopoly on the truth and yes there were trials were nonbelievers and all that were persecuted, but it was still nothing compared to Nazi Germany.
I would recommend you watch out with what you say now, unless you can bring up some really convincing evidence. You´re treading a slippery ground with such outrageous statements.


If you actually believe that "Chaos = ebil, Empire = gud" you are either not even reading the damn fluff, or shouldn't be reading it.

Hmm, last time I checked, you had no authority to forbid me from reading any kind of written material. And once again, you should be cautious with such bold statements, because of the simple fact you don´t know how much I know of the Fantasy background. And this is bordering on accusations and insults.


The Empire are humans, with all the good and bad, and Chaos is humanity taken to the extreme. It is supposed to be a reflection of humanity, not a random bad guy for the heroic heroes to defeat.

Since when does one exclude the other? Yes, Chaos is a dark reflection of humanity, but that doesn´t exclude it from being the bad guys side.
The Sith are a dark mockery of the Jedi, yet still clearly evil.
The Decepticons are the selfish versions of the Autobots.
The Joker represents the exact the opposit of Batman.

I think a common misconception is that Good and evil are restricted to army books and fractions. A fraction is either evil or good.
This of course is not true. The Empire as a clear example, have both good and evil parts in it.
Valten and Karl Franz are clearly good. Both representing the ideals the Empire should stand for and always ready to face the threats that threaten them.
But than there are the corrupt priests like Esmer, who want nothing but personal gain.

And as a last point, why is it always that the forces of Chaos launch all out invasions on the Empire, only to be defeated by some glorious hereo? Sounds like a typical good vs evil story to me.

For the whole ´shades of grey´ story, you should go to 40K. There we have the fascistic Imperium facing off against the psychotic Chaos Marines, selfish Eldar and uncaring Necrons.

RobC
13-05-2008, 14:21
For the whole ´shades of grey´ story, you should go to 40K. There we have the fascistic Imperium facing off against the psychotic Chaos Marines, selfish Eldar and uncaring Necrons.Cast your net wider. Warhammer was doing moral ambiguity before WH40K even existed. Some of the more recent material (Storm of Chaos in particular) has diluted the underlying mood and theme of Warhammer Fantasy, and stuff like the shiny Bretonnians should simply never have happened, but that doesn't mean the whole setting is a LotR-style good vs evil battle.

Or at least, it shouldn't be. Not everyone who writes for the setting is that aware of what makes Warhammer distinct from its competitors.

MvS
13-05-2008, 15:34
Some of the more recent material (Storm of Chaos in particular) has diluted the underlying mood and theme of Warhammer Fantasy
Which is a double shame, because some of the SoC pre-production notes that fell into my hands had Valten assassinated by Esmer and Karl Franz - Esmer argued for it because Valten was undermining the Sigmarite Church and Karl Franz went along with it with a very heavy heart because he saw that the Empire was indeed splitting up into civil war and couldn't really trust people like Esmer anyway.

The final product, as we have all seen, was somewhat different from this, although I think the plan was always to frame the Skaven (who supposedly no-one really believed in until just before the Storm).

CommanderCax
13-05-2008, 19:18
Which is a double shame, because some of the SoC pre-production notes that fell into my hands had Valten assassinated by Esmer and Karl Franz

Well, maybe Esmer paid the Skaven (ie. Deathmaster Snikch) in the first place... :evilgrin:

Letting the Skaven do the killing is probably the best way of blaming them anyway. Just wonder where Esmer got the Warpstone token from to pay the Deathmaster after all...

isidril93
14-05-2008, 20:39
wasnt this thread about the chaos gods (look at above posts)

MontytheMighty
28-08-2009, 15:28
hey ummm, do humans know that their emotions and beliefs create gods in the warp, if they do couldn't they use this knowledge to create more gods in their favour?

RobC
28-08-2009, 16:12
hey ummm, do humans know that their emotions and beliefs create gods in the warp, if they do couldn't they use this knowledge to create more gods in their favour?Most don't know, and the few that do tend to go insane (Archaon's knowledge of the true nature of the gods is what tipped him over the edge). Even if such knowledge was common, people have little to no control over their emotions - it would be like asking everyone to stop feeling despair when something terrible happened to them.

mr_vespa
28-08-2009, 17:26
Most don't know, and the few that do tend to go insane (Archaon's knowledge of the true nature of the gods is what tipped him over the edge). Even if such knowledge was common, people have little to no control over their emotions - it would be like asking everyone to stop feeling despair when something terrible happened to them.

Very good summary here.

I think the output of the Norsemen on Chaos puts a good emphasis on what they perceive as 'Gods'. A most notable quote from Warhammer Online (more or less, if memory serves): "If the Empire was strong, their Gods would help them." This strongly implies more than simple belief, but a form of worship based on action and merit.

Simply put, a few prayers followed by the sign of the Hammer isn't enough to curry true favour in the eyes of the Chaos Gods. One must be able to put everything on the line to gain what he seeks (and even then, the fickle entities just might give him more than we he/she originally bargained for...).

Arnizipal
28-08-2009, 18:43
Most don't know, and the few that do tend to go insane (Archaon's knowledge of the true nature of the gods is what tipped him over the edge). Even if such knowledge was common, people have little to no control over their emotions - it would be like asking everyone to stop feeling despair when something terrible happened to them.Elves seem to know more about the true nature of the gods than humans. It's said that Teclis was amused by the human distinction between divine and arcane magic when he founded the colleges.

isidril93
28-08-2009, 18:47
Elves seem to know more about the true nature of the gods than humans. It's said that Teclis was amused by the human distinction between divine and arcane magic when he founded the colleges.

which is ironic cos all divine magic is is arcane magic done by a cult (right?)

Condottiere
28-08-2009, 18:47
There also seems to a general level of detachment between High Elves and their gods, since past experience seems to indicate that those who try to come to close to the Divine tend to lead very interesting lifes.

Arnizipal
28-08-2009, 18:54
which is ironic cos all divine magic is is arcane magic done by a cult (right?)Sort of. Gods are able to channel magic to empower their followers with "miracles". And the Elves seem to know about this.

N0-1_H3r3
30-08-2009, 20:47
There also seems to a general level of detachment between High Elves and their gods, since past experience seems to indicate that those who try to come to close to the Divine tend to lead very interesting lifes.
As I saw it, it's less a sense of detachment, more a desire to remain in personal balance - Elves are described in a number of sources as being quite spiritual, offering up prayers dozens of times a day for all sorts of things, and consider everything to have something of the divine in it, but they seem disinclined to favour one god over the others.


Sort of. Gods are able to channel magic to empower their followers with "miracles".
Potentially, but I don't know anywhere that such is specifically stated without character bias. It could as easily be an unconscious/belief-based form of magic, where raw faith and belief supplant the need for the careful mental discipline and abstract thought required of those using 'arcane magic'. The magic of Chaos Sorcerers is supposedly a hybrid of this - the knowledge and insight and complex mental acrobatics of the arcane mixed with the absolute belief in a higher power and/or patronage of a deity.

With the Elves, their comparatively deeper understanding of magic, combined with the above-noted reticence towards singular worship of any one god, would make divine magic as it exists amongst humans essentially non-existent; partially because the Elves may not consider it safe to devote yourself so utterly to a single god in a manner conducive to belief-derived/divinely-bestowed magic, and partially because they attribute magic (like everything else) with the touch of the divine and thus don't see a practical difference between the two.

Arnizipal
30-08-2009, 21:57
Potentially, but I don't know anywhere that such is specifically stated without character bias. It could as easily be an unconscious/belief-based form of magic, where raw faith and belief supplant the need for the careful mental discipline and abstract thought required of those using 'arcane magic'.
Gods have been noted to remove spellcasting abilities of 'fallen' members of their clergy in some WFRP adventures, and the WFRPv2 miscast table for priests seems to back up the idea that priests have to beseech their deity for spells.

The Liber Chaotica mentions all this as well, though it may be (slightly) biased towards the Imperial point of view.

N0-1_H3r3
31-08-2009, 11:09
Gods have been noted to remove spellcasting abilities of 'fallen' members of their clergy in some WFRP adventures, and the WFRPv2 miscast table for priests seems to back up the idea that priests have to beseech their deity for spells.
Again, explainable. In other situations, supposedly heretical sects (the Sisters of Sigmar in Mordheim, for example) have somehow maintained their ability to 'call upon the gods'.

Does a god rescind his gifts if one is unworthy, or does his unworthiness shake the priest's belief such that he cannot wield that gift? Do miscasts truly represent the wrath of the gods, or are they simply percieved as such?

In truth, it's likely somewhere between the two extremes - I can't see a god intervening every few seconds when one of his priests needs to smite some beastmen, but at the same time the belief-based casting used as a sole method could well be taken to the extreme that the gods don't actually exist (which is fine for the tone of some interpretations of the Warhammer world, but not necessarily the baseline I'd assume). Either way, it's a vague and uncertain matter, and as is entirely appropriate for the matter of religion, something that the characters themselves take on faith...

Arnizipal
31-08-2009, 11:48
Again, explainable. In other situations, supposedly heretical sects (the Sisters of Sigmar in Mordheim, for example) have somehow maintained their ability to 'call upon the gods'.

Does a god rescind his gifts if one is unworthy, or does his unworthiness shake the priest's belief such that he cannot wield that gift? Do miscasts truly represent the wrath of the gods, or are they simply percieved as such?

In truth, it's likely somewhere between the two extremes - I can't see a god intervening every few seconds when one of his priests needs to smite some beastmen, but at the same time the belief-based casting used as a sole method could well be taken to the extreme that the gods don't actually exist (which is fine for the tone of some interpretations of the Warhammer world, but not necessarily the baseline I'd assume). Either way, it's a vague and uncertain matter, and as is entirely appropriate for the matter of religion, something that the characters themselves take on faith...The Sisters of Sigmar were only considered heretics by the Grand Theogonist. It was a man-made decision, not devine mandate. The Sisters hadn't offended the deity Sigmar, so their spellcasting abilities remained.

I can see where you're coming from but 'Ulric has withdrawn spellcasting abilities from priest X' in the GM description for a villain doesn't really leave much to interpretation. In my opinion it's the same with miscasts. They aren't made up fully of flavour text.

The fact remains that divine magic is much safer than arcane magic. If they would be basically the same this wouldn't be the case.

Why wouldn't a god be able to intervene on behalf of their priests? AFAIK most established RPG's work with this idea. After all we're talking about deities here. They should have no problems with being in two or more places at once. Besides, it's not like they have anything better to do. :p

I'm a bit confused on how belief-based casting could prove there are no gods though... :confused:

N0-1_H3r3
31-08-2009, 12:45
The fact remains that divine magic is much safer than arcane magic. If they would be basically the same this wouldn't be the case.
The mind can do complicated things without thinking about it, that become trickier when thought about directly. Raw belief, unconscious thought, directing the energies of the aethyr can accomplish things that directed, conscious magic might struggle to replicate.


Why wouldn't a god be able to intervene on behalf of their priests? AFAIK most established RPG's work with this idea. After all we're talking about deities here. They should have no problems with being in two or more places at once. Besides, it's not like they have anything better to do. :p
Personally, I like that WFRP doesn't follow the route of most established RPGs. Direct and routine divine involvement is, IMO, a worn-out cliché at this point. It's for the same reason that I like the lack of 'conventional' Elven and Dwarfen priests - it makes them different, makes them distinct, and does something contrary to the expected tropes of fantasy RPG settings.

We know, from Realms of Sorcery and it's description of how Teclis, Finreir and Yrtle reacted to the human notion of 'divine magic' that these miracle-wielding priests aren't just being bestowed power by their gods - they're actually capable of wielding magic in their own right, should they train to do so. That suggests to me that the matter is far from clear-cut, that the routine direct intervention of the gods is not inherently a given, nor even alone in explaining the power of miracle-wielding priests.

The precise details of the matter are left vague, of course, but I don't think it's too far a stretch to imagine that at least part of the power a priest wields in the name of his god is his own power directed by faith and the certainty of belief, rather than Sigmar or Ulric poking their nose in every ten seconds for every priest currently engaged in combat... deities they may be, but what that actually means is uncertain and up for debate as much as the nature of Chaos...


I'm a bit confused on how belief-based casting could prove there are no gods though... :confused:
If a given priest can cast solely on his own merit, his own belief in a god, then there is no requirement for that god even to exist - only for that priest's belief in that god's existence.

At it's furthest extent, it could be speculated that the priests are simply deluded fools, wielding power on behalf of a fiction.

Rathgar
31-08-2009, 17:28
The precise details of the matter are left vague, of course

Quite.

I imagine this is the sort of debate High Mages would have. Overlapping spheres and whatnot. It all depends on how you look at it or how much you've had to drink...

Arnizipal
31-08-2009, 18:39
The mind can do complicated things without thinking about it, that become trickier when thought about directly. Raw belief, unconscious thought, directing the energies of the aethyr can accomplish things that directed, conscious magic might struggle to replicate.
Fair enough. Some sources do mention the ritualisic nature of divine magic is what keeps priests from suffering nasty miscasts, though I'm still not convinced divine magic is safer only because priests handle the magic better.



We know, from Realms of Sorcery and it's description of how Teclis, Finreir and Yrtle reacted to the human notion of 'divine magic' that these miracle-wielding priests aren't just being bestowed power by their gods - they're actually capable of wielding magic in their own right, should they train to do so. That suggests to me that the matter is far from clear-cut, that the routine direct intervention of the gods is not inherently a given, nor even alone in explaining the power of miracle-wielding priests.
I figurted that spellcasting priests are the only one who know how to truly "contact" their deity to get him/her to intervene.



If a given priest can cast solely on his own merit, his own belief in a god, then there is no requirement for that god even to exist - only for that priest's belief in that god's existence.

At it's furthest extent, it could be speculated that the priests are simply deluded fools, wielding power on behalf of a fiction.
We know that daemons exist. Daemons who can be summoned on forced to intervene on behalf of their summoner. Daemons who are shaped by the thoughts and fears of mortals. Doesn't this prove the existence of gods as well?

N0-1_H3r3
31-08-2009, 20:26
We know that daemons exist. Daemons who can be summoned on forced to intervene on behalf of their summoner. Daemons who are shaped by the thoguhts and fears of mortals. Doesn't this prove the existence of gods as well?
Depends on how you define "gods" and whether or not you distinguish between the Ruinous Powers on the one hand and the gods of Men and Elves (Dwarfs engage in Ancestor-worship, with Grungni, Valaya and Grimnir being the three most commonly-worshipped and prominent, rather than worship of the divine in the same manner as Elves and Humans, though humans blur the line somewhat with Sigmar and possibly Myrmidia and Ranald) on the other.

Warhammer metaphysics and mysticism, given the nature of the Aethyr/Warp, are nuanced matters open to vast speculation...

The question there boils down to much the same thing as many of them... do the gods of the Warhammer World exist because they are believed in, or are they believed in because they exist? Is it somewhere between the two? It it some miscellaneous third option? Is it in fact a cycle, where belief results in existence which results in belief?

ChaosReigns
01-09-2009, 02:00
I think it's fairly safe to say that there are "real gods" in Warhammer, particularly the Chaos Gods. That is to say that there actually is a "deity" called Sigmar, and a "deity" called Ulric, and one called Khorne and so forth. Now whether or not these gods are what the people of the Warhammer world believe them to be is an altogether different story.

And yes, Warhammer gods exist because they are believed in, they make that statement directly in the most recent Warriors of Chaos army book, but their existence, and the gifts and boons they bestow on their followers, whether they be miracles or mutations, would also lend power to belief in them I would imagine.

Arnizipal
01-09-2009, 11:16
And yes, Warhammer gods exist because they are believed in, they make that statement directly in the most recent Warriors of Chaos army book, but their existence, and the gifts and boons they bestow on their followers, whether they be miracles or mutations, would also lend power to belief in them I would imagine.N0-1_H3r3 has a point though. The background in the main rulebook states the Chaos Gods already existed when the portals broke down. Does this mean they have always been around and are now shaped by the emotions of mortals or that they were instantly created by the massive influx of emotions into the Aethyr when the gates collapsed?

Lord-Caerolion
01-09-2009, 11:35
And this is where it gets complex. We know that the Chaos Gods can rise and fall in power, yet the Warp is timeless, so therefore from their perspective they have a set power level.

I just explain it as one of the rules of the Great Game is a God can only utilise as much power at a point in "time" as they would have in the Materium, regardless of whether or not they have more in "reality", or even less. All just another rule to make playing with their mortal chess-pieces all the more fun.

This helps explain the "timeless/time-effected" paradox, and also explains why a Chaos Champion can't see their own Daemon Prince, seeing as the Warp is timeless.

Condottiere
01-09-2009, 11:51
N0-1_H3r3 has a point though. The background in the main rulebook states the Chaos Gods already existed when the portals broke down. Does this mean they have always been around and are now shaped by the emotions of mortals or that they were instantly created by the massive influx of emotions into the Aethyr when the gates collapsed?Something has always been there that formed the basis of Khorne and company, but the emotions from the Material world had an effect on their development. If sentient beings had all been peace-loving vegans, the Chaos gods would have reflected that in their make up.

MusibatKhan
18-12-2009, 01:21
Gork N Mork both are in the warp but not chaos entities in any way.....
hell they beat chaos main 4 gods to pulp just for fun :) Green iz da best!

Arnizipal
18-12-2009, 23:50
Gork N Mork both are in the warp but not chaos entities in any way.....
Anything that survives in the warp is an entity made of chaos, including Gork and Mork.

-Grimgorironhide-
19-12-2009, 01:38
Here are my beliefs.

First then Aethyr is where all the gods are saturated.
Second all gods are forms of chaos.
Third is that chaos can be good as well as bad. Chaos in its pure form is nether good nor evil. I.e Magic comes from chaos but if used by someone of order it is a source of good. Same with the opposite. Though most can agree that the four gods of chaos are evil that is because of the emotions in which they are formed from, not because they are of chaos.

So IMO chaos is neither good nor evil. It is evil when used for dark purposes. So though all gods are of chaos Sigmar, Ulric, Isha etc. remain gods of good, not evil.

cheers.

Condottiere
19-12-2009, 02:38
Perhaps the Warp is physical proof of Einstein's Unified Field Theory.

eigil-b
26-07-2010, 17:27
So.... If Chaos took over the world they would perish?

RobC
26-07-2010, 17:42
It's open to interpretation, but Chaos is a reflection of the material universe's living creatures. Without them, it would most likely cease to be sentient.

Lijacote
29-07-2010, 02:00
Who cares?
It's a *******' game.

Maybe you shouldn't be browsing the background section, or reading a multi-paged discussion on the nature of deities-fabricated-for-entertainment

Also, eigil-b is a threadomancer!

Ar-Gimilzor
29-07-2010, 04:09
I think Gav's explanation was a little bit misleading--yes, the gods overlap, but I don't think the non-chaos gods are ENTIRELY within the influence-sphere of another god(s). If they were, they wouldn't be independent entities. If you imagine them as circles, Khorne would be a very large circle and Khaine would be a smaller one which intersects Khone (and maybe Slaanesh) at one point, but the rest of his circle would be independent. Hence, when you worship Khaine, you're feeding several deities (Khorne, Slaanesh and Khaine) whereas when you worship Khorne, you only feed Khorne. That's why the independent gods require constant, specific worship just to exist, while the chaos gods are constantly being fed no matter what.

Sigmund
29-07-2010, 12:25
This thread if 5 years old.... epic!:D

Nubl0
29-07-2010, 14:42
Do the gods have a free will as such? In my daemon book I read about how Khorne sometimes gets off his throne to destroy the armies of other gods daemons for fun, he also has the heads of fallens gods tacked onto his brass bling. So why doesnt he just get up, go for a stroll sort out that pansey khaine, then deal with the other gods of order... and heck maybe get on over to slaanesh's crib and kill him too. Gooing by his description as the oldest and most powerfull (most of the time) god what is stopping from just killing the other gods, it even says none of his brother gods could hope to match him in combat.

RobC
29-07-2010, 15:05
Do the gods have a free will as such? In my daemon book I read about how Khorne sometimes gets off his throne to destroy the armies of other gods daemons for fun, he also has the heads of fallens gods tacked onto his brass bling. So why doesnt he just get up, go for a stroll sort out that pansey khaine, then deal with the other gods of order... and heck maybe get on over to slaanesh's crib and kill him too. Gooing by his description as the oldest and most powerfull (most of the time) god what is stopping from just killing the other gods, it even says none of his brother gods could hope to match him in combat.(a) The Chaos gods are insane. They do not act logically, but fumble around blindly towards that which they desire. If it increases rage, for example in Khorne's case, then it's a success.
(b) The Chaos gods are warp entities. They cannot be killed; they are not mortal.
(c) The warp is not the same as reality. Bubbles of reality are said to exist, but everything else is an attempt at the mortal mind to assert some kind of sense to what is essentially a realm of pure emotion.
(d) The daemons books is very dodgy, in terms of background.

Son of Sanguinius
29-07-2010, 16:25
Do the gods have a free will as such? In my daemon book I read about how Khorne sometimes gets off his throne to destroy the armies of other gods daemons for fun, he also has the heads of fallens gods tacked onto his brass bling. So why doesnt he just get up, go for a stroll sort out that pansey khaine, then deal with the other gods of order... and heck maybe get on over to slaanesh's crib and kill him too. Gooing by his description as the oldest and most powerfull (most of the time) god what is stopping from just killing the other gods, it even says none of his brother gods could hope to match him in combat.

I view the Demon Army Book as largely a mortal's view of visions in the warp. Humans cannot visually comprehend what a sentient tempest of emotion actually looks like, so our minds subconsciously filter and shape the information to something more understandable. So what we see as Khorne taking a sword to his brothers' armies is actually the storm that is Khorne unleashing an energy-assault against his brothers' forms.

Ended
25-10-2010, 06:57
I had a few questions pertaining to the chaos gods and their chaos warrior followers after reading through about 5 pages of this post. I will use a scenario to help ask my questions.

So lets say there is a follower of Khorne. He slaughters an enemy in battle. By doing so, he is helping/making happy all 4 of the major chaos gods in the following ways:

1.) Blood/Rage - He has rage while fighting and thus is supporting Khorne
2.) Change - By slaying an enemy in battle he has changed that person's life by ending it, as there is inherently change in death, thus he supports Tzeentch
3.) Despair/Hopelessness - This is actually felt by the enemy being slain by the warrior of chaos as he realizes he is going to die from the inflicted wounds, but this despair is being brought on by the warrior, thus the warrior is supporting Nurgle.
4.) Pleasure - The pleasure the warrior gains from slaughtering the enemy in his god's name, thus he supports slaneesh.

By slaughtering this enemy, has the warrior has furthered the will of all the chaos gods?

Are they all benefited even though the warrior is only doing this slaughtering in khorne's name?
----> if yes, then is one god benefited more? and why?

Is this the reason why the chaos gods will sometimes work together, and also why there is such thing as an everchosen?

Thanks,
Ended

CommanderCax
25-10-2010, 07:30
By slaughtering this enemy, has the warrior has furthered the will of all the chaos gods?

Sort of, yes.


Are they all benefited even though the warrior is only doing this slaughtering in khorne's name?
----> if yes, then is one god benefited more? and why?

Most probably Khorne is 'benefited' more, because it is done in his name and he is worshipped by his follower this way. Still, terms like 'more' and 'less' are hard to grasp in this regard anyway.


Is this the reason why the chaos gods will sometimes work together, and also why there is such thing as an everchosen?


You assume some kind of reasoning in the way how the Ruinous Powers work, though they are inherently chaotic. Anyway, their follower may work together from time to time for a common goal. Howsoever, in regard to the Everchosen, maybe he was not so much chosen but choose himself...

Urgat
25-10-2010, 11:45
N0-1_H3r3 has a point though. The background in the main rulebook states the Chaos Gods already existed when the portals broke down. Does this mean they have always been around and are now shaped by the emotions of mortals or that they were instantly created by the massive influx of emotions into the Aethyr when the gates collapsed?

Maybe they got other worlds to feed on, other dimensions, things like that.

Shizzbam
26-10-2010, 00:22
Like the 40k universe...? :angel:

Chainaxe07
26-10-2010, 17:43
Interesting thread.
On a side note: does anyone else thinks that the dark elven gods (who now officially dont worship Khaine alone) are based on the great old ones in the cthulhu mithos? There is even a god of destruction that has 1000 different aspects, sounds familiar enough. These could be beings entirely separated from the warp, what do you think?

Ar-Gimilzor
27-10-2010, 11:12
Interesting thread.
On a side note: does anyone else thinks that the dark elven gods (who now officially dont worship Khaine alone) are based on the great old ones in the cthulhu mithos? There is even a god of destruction that has 1000 different aspects, sounds familiar enough. These could be beings entirely separated from the warp, what do you think?
I think it's just another lame retcon. The Khaine/Slaanesh dichotomy was central to their story/character, and now we're getting some weird Warcraft Old God rip-offs which are in turn rip-offs of Cthulhu.

Chainaxe07
27-10-2010, 22:29
I think it's just another lame retcon. The Khaine/Slaanesh dichotomy was central to their story/character, and now we're getting some weird Warcraft Old God rip-offs which are in turn rip-offs of Cthulhu.

Well, the whole Khaine business is relatively new itself (it all started in 4th edition).
Before that khaine was just a roleplay god of assassin, and the dark elves, when armies used to have alignements, could either be evil or chaotic.
I do think a pantheon of evil elven gods cant hurt, but i may be a bit partial: i love evil, hate the chaos gods and cant stand mutation (indeed i find the "chaos=mutant" thing the worst idea in warhammer...and i dont mind Elric, go figure!). As a result i am constantly looking for evil beings to dedicate my armies to :skull:

Ar-Gimilzor
28-10-2010, 12:30
Well, the whole Khaine business is relatively new itself (it all started in 4th edition).
Before that khaine was just a roleplay god of assassin, and the dark elves, when armies used to have alignements, could either be evil or chaotic.
I do think a pantheon of evil elven gods cant hurt, but i may be a bit partial: i love evil, hate the chaos gods and cant stand mutation (indeed i find the "chaos=mutant" thing the worst idea in warhammer...and i dont mind Elric, go figure!). As a result i am constantly looking for evil beings to dedicate my armies to :skull:
Well, technically Khaine is not a "chaos god"; he's a god of graceful and efficient killing (ie. murder, rather than specifically combat). Their relative monotheism is a defining factor of their civilization; there was a quote where a Druchii was lamenting the fact that Asuryan abandoned them and the frozen land did not seem to be home to their traditional forest/merciful gods. All they had left was their cunning and viciousness, which their entire society was then built upon (hence, Khaine). Then, we got this weird "Dark Mother" in Malus' books, and now we're getting a full-blown pantheon. I could at least attribute the Dark Mother to being Morai-Heg, but where are the rest of these dudes coming from? Elves are very conservative when it comes to religion, they don't just worship any nature spirit they can find like humans are wont to do.