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kiron
26-07-2007, 04:45
so far i hear carnifex's, exorcists, falcons, monolith, leman russ, basilisk, and predators as being the top contenders. Which tanks performs best individually, in an army setting, in mission setting? Say if you had 3 of each tank in a straight up fight which will win? my thoughts is 3 exorcists.

Yarick Zan
26-07-2007, 05:11
I would put my money on 3 Tau Hammerheads. It would make the most sense.

Iceheart2112
26-07-2007, 06:38
Or 3 Falcons. Even though I'm a total Tau fan, I have to say that the Falcon would give an excellent run for the money. Though, to be fair, you've got to give a certain point value for this little 'exercise', as given unlimited points, there could be some changes to people's choices.

logosloki
26-07-2007, 07:41
3 tooled falcons
3 land raiders(any variant. they might be good in this battle)
3 carnies would own up. if they had fleet or a bigger movement.

Xarian
26-07-2007, 07:44
I'd say the monolith, mostly because I doubt that the others are airtight =p

In all seriousness though, 3 Carnifexes is gonna beat your 3 other tanks nearly 100% of the time. In an army setting this is not the case because you have other stuff going on for you, but Carnifexes:

1) Are guaranteed to survive multiple hits
2) Cannot be shaken or stunned (thus can continue firing even if wounded)
3) Are able to pump out more high-strength shots per model than any of the other tanks (Venom Cannon), leading to many glances (all of which at least keep other tanks from firing)
4) Are able to fire and assault in the same turn (which is an issue when not taking terrain into consideration). If any of these attacks hit they're almost guaranteed to penetrate
5) Possibly regenerate wounds

This kinda makes sense, since Carnifexes are also the most expensive choice when fully upgraded.

tomgore
26-07-2007, 07:55
i'm thinking 3 monoliths would pretty much own 3 carni's. thats just my 2 cents though. :cheese:

Gaius_Baltar
26-07-2007, 08:02
Predators would indeed do great. But I really doubt any IG tanks would, just because it's a vacuum, and they don't seem too air tight.

Corrupt
26-07-2007, 08:12
Predators would indeed do great. But I really doubt any IG tanks would, just because it's a vacuum, and they don't seem too air tight.

Chimeras are amphibious. So I assume they have some sort of sealing system and air recycling...

Quess Who
26-07-2007, 08:37
i'm thinking 3 monoliths would pretty much own 3 carni's. thats just my 2 cents though. :cheese:

3 'liths vs 3 'fex

fexs have 36" 2 st10 shots and 1 st8 or 2 t/l st 10 shots
'lith has 1 24" shot..... sure its AP1 but it has to get close enough.
my money is on a fex lith will never catch a fex but a fex will always catch the lith

ThorOdensson
26-07-2007, 09:01
Chimeras are amphibious. So I assume they have some sort of sealing system and air recycling...

Thats water tight not air tight and amphibious doesn't necessarily mean its submersible.

Enderel
26-07-2007, 09:13
I'd have to go for Falcons, fully loaded. Although deep striking monoliths would cause a world of pain for most things. Carnies are good but three falcons concentrating fire from long range should just about beat them... Would be interesting to AoD this though!

I'd go for something like this set up, spirit stones, vectored engines, star engines, holofields, shuriken cannon, bright lance. Then I'd use the pulse lasers 48" range to engage from a distance and keep moving fast. On an average board with medium cover it would take a long time to hunt them down. Bright lance would only be necessary if engaging land raiders to avoid needing 6's to glance.

I think the falcon is meant to have space travel capabilities as well is it not? I thought I read it in the fluff somewhere, where they drop into the atmosphere from a orbiting ship?

Gorbad Ironclaw
26-07-2007, 09:17
They can indeed operate in space, yes. Not really a space fighter, but can be deployed from orbit.

Eniac
26-07-2007, 09:32
Vacum eh? I would take 3 land raiders as not only could they survive total vacum but a the other end of the scale can also withstand massive pressure. They are completely airtight and pack one helluva punch to boot.


I don't see the flacon as being totally airtight let alone being able to withstand vacum. It is an atmospheric craft, not a spacecraft afaik.

Razor Devil
26-07-2007, 09:39
Howabout 3 Mantas? Or pylons? Or titans? Or Tyranid 40k scale titans? Or Nightbringers? Or...or...Either predators or land raiders or fire prisms!

Eniac
26-07-2007, 10:14
Manta = not a tank
pylon = not a tank
titan = not a tank
nightbringer = not even a machine

:p

Penguin of Death
26-07-2007, 10:35
I think the phrase "in a vacuum" is being taken too literally, I think the original poster just means by themselves rather than in an army

Bookwrak
26-07-2007, 11:39
3 'liths vs 3 'fex

fexs have 36" 2 st10 shots and 1 st8 or 2 t/l st 10 shots
'lith has 1 24" shot..... sure its AP1 but it has to get close enough.
my money is on a fex lith will never catch a fex but a fex will always catch the lith

I'd rather use the gauss flayer. The particle whip might wound a fex easier, but you've only got one shot, thus never more than one wound a turn, whereas with the flayer, if all three monoliths are in range, that's 3d6 shots per turn against each fex.

Bunnahabhain
26-07-2007, 11:56
Manta = not a tank
pylon = not a tank
titan = not a tank
nightbringer = not even a machine

:p
RaW pedant alert.....

From Imp Armour update 2006 Warhound titan. Type: Super heavy Tank

/pedantry

On topic, I'd say tooled up falcons are what you want. This is assuming we're not going to super heavies- I think we can agree a Baneblade is a tank-

Col.Gravis
26-07-2007, 12:08
With points not being an issue Falcons definately.

If you make it on a point for point basis I'd say Hammerheads become realistic contenders as would Predator Annilators IMHO.

Slaaneshi Slave
26-07-2007, 12:14
On points I would say Exorcists are good contenders too.


I don't see the flacon as being totally airtight let alone being able to withstand vacum. It is an atmospheric craft, not a spacecraft afaik.

All Eldar tanks can operate in orbit, as well as reach escape velocity unaided.

pwrgmrguard
26-07-2007, 13:40
ummm three shadoswords own your asses.. all of yours. back up six inches fire....back up six inches fire...over and over until the bigass spotlight fries your ass. Titan killer FTW.

120" of range, str 10, ap 1, ordnance but no scatter, and two lascannons, all at bs 4.

in a tank to tank, depending on range, it's the shadowsword every time.

kiron
26-07-2007, 14:25
how about we include point value too?

Slaaneshi Slave
26-07-2007, 14:29
Against an equal number of points worth of lascannon Sentinels those three Superheavies no longer look so promising.

TheEndIsHere
26-07-2007, 14:34
ummm three shadoswords own your asses.. all of yours. back up six inches fire....back up six inches fire...over and over until the bigass spotlight fries your ass. Titan killer FTW.

120" of range, str 10, ap 1, ordnance but no scatter, and two lascannons, all at bs 4.

in a tank to tank, depending on range, it's the shadowsword every time.

Pylon Wins!

To bad the took the infinite range and made it only 240"...:mad:

Titan killer and AA mount and barrage= OWNED ShadowSword and they cost less points...

D-End

FigureFour
26-07-2007, 14:38
Manta = not a tank
pylon = not a tank
titan = not a tank
nightbringer = not even a machine

:p

And still no one has pointed out that a CARNIFEX isn't a tank.

kiron
26-07-2007, 14:55
my friend brought stated that 3 upgraded falcons trumps 3 exorcists, is this true? i don't know anything about the falcon so can anyone clarify why they are so good? i just see that with holofields you roll 2d6 for glance chart and take the lowest result right? so there is a 1/9 chance of destroying the falcon?

Xarian
26-07-2007, 14:58
And still no one has pointed out that a CARNIFEX isn't a tank.

No, it's not a tank. It's worth comparing in this, however, since it is the Tyranid equivalent of a tank. Every other race (except for Dark Eldar and Orks, which specialize in light vehicles) have their own 'tank' (not counting looted vehicles), so it would make sense to compare the Carnifex.

Anyway.

On a big enough table, Falcons could fly circles (literally) around the Carnifexes and pepper them with Pulse Laser shots until they die. They wouldn't be able to do anything about it, since they'd be too far out of range. Hammerheads wouldn't have this problem and could shoot down the Falcons (while Falcons are tough and nimble, they just aren't that good at shooting down enemy tanks and I think would probably lose to railheads). Hammerheads could also do this. On a normal-sized table (4'x5', for instance) the Carnifexes could stand in the center of the table and shoot everything without worry of being out of range.

Regardless, I think it's been pretty solidly established than the slow tanks like the Monolith and the imperial tanks are pretty solidly out of the running - it's just too easy to penetrate and destroy them and their weapons generally aren't much more advanced than the other tanks.

MrPickles
26-07-2007, 15:00
I wouldn't say so. Exorcists are one of the best tanks against eldar because they can dish out a lot of shots.

Why is it falcons over fire prisms? Fire Prisms are more versatile, more accurate, and have longer range. 3 Fire Prisms > 3 Falcons.

Silvereye
26-07-2007, 15:05
Falcons? Since there are people muttering on about super heavies, they seem to have not bothered upping the Falcons to Scorpions.

Reticent
26-07-2007, 15:09
On an infinitely sized board I would favor the Hammerhead just on combination of range and speed (excluding super-heavies of course).

Up close and personal it would probably be the 'fexs.

Slaaneshi Slave
26-07-2007, 15:28
I wouldn't say so. Exorcists are one of the best tanks against eldar because they can dish out a lot of shots.

Exorcists are not good tanks against Falcons. An exorcist gets 3.5 shots a turn on average, which means 2 hit, and 1.3 glancing hits.

kiron
26-07-2007, 15:32
Exorcists are not good tanks against Falcons. An exorcist gets 3.5 shots a turn on average, which means 2 hit, and 1.3 glancing hits.

uh...it's 10.5 shots for 3 tanks, that's a little more than 7 hits, which is about 7 glancing hits (2d6 AP right?) vs. AP12 at str 8. 7 glances seem okay to take down one falcon right?

Slaaneshi Slave
26-07-2007, 16:03
uh...it's 10.5 shots for 3 tanks, that's a little more than 7 hits, which is about 7 glancing hits (2d6 AP right?) vs. AP12 at str 8. 7 glances seem okay to take down one falcon right?

Why would they be 2D6 AP?

gitburna
26-07-2007, 16:20
if we're going to start bringing points into it, im going to say a Dark Eldar Raider [yeah, even though its not a tank its still near enough]
Cheap superfast moving Dark lances FTW

Lord Malek The Red Knight
26-07-2007, 16:27
i quite like a tooled Leman Russ Demolisher: Lascannon, Demolisher Cannon, 2 x Plasm Cannons (feel free to add Vehicle Upgrades). :D

~ Tim

MrPickles
26-07-2007, 16:30
Exorcists are not good tanks against Falcons. An exorcist gets 3.5 shots a turn on average, which means 2 hit, and 1.3 glancing hits.

So, what tank would you recommend against a falcon?

Partisan Rimmo
26-07-2007, 16:42
M'lord Malek, would it not be wise to give the Demolisher sponson Multi Meltas in the circumstances?

As for my own reccomendations, if we're factoring in points, then I beleive a cloud of Dark Eldar Raiders that block out the sun will do the job best.
55 Points each, weapon is generally superior to a Lascannon, and skimmer to confound retalation shots. I've actually done this in RL to a Baneblade in a mega battle once to! :P

If we're just going for the outright best tank, and we're using only codexes, I would say the Tau Hammerhead. Good BS, fantastic cannon, medium armour but this is made up for by it's skimming speed.


Personally I'm surprised no one's mentioned the Land Raider Terminus yet. That thing's not even a Superheavy and it'll soon deal with most of y'all.


EDIT* Mr. Pickles, for your troubling problem I would suggest the Dark Eldar Ravager for wiping the smile of his Eldar face. Should that not being a viable option, then the Tau Skyray?

Slaaneshi Slave
26-07-2007, 16:51
So, what tank would you recommend against a falcon?

I wouldn't. Infantry are used to bring down Eldar Tanks, and Tanks are used to bring down Eldar Infantry.

Puffin Magician
26-07-2007, 17:10
You wouldn't even need 3 Fire Prisms... 2 flying around with their "fire-linked" s10 ap1 shot with a re-roll beats most tanks for range; the Laser Tank Destroyer and Vanquisher are both Bs3 and slow. The Hammerhead would give them a run for their money but the Prisms can outmaneuver it as well as survive longer thanks to upgrades.

Failing that... Cobra. Why? Agile, skimmer, superheavy, Eldar holofields, and a titan-scaled Distort Cannon. Definitely give the Pylon or Shadowsword something to worry about.

Personally I'm surprised no one's mentioned the Land Raider Terminus yet.Shouldn't we leave this open to vehicles that actually exist? :p

Pwrgmrguard: Shadowswords to not have Lascannons.

FireN.Brimstone
26-07-2007, 17:14
I'd Say 3 Fireprisms, as they have the range to fire at Carnifexes without return fire AND the surviability to beat the other tanks.

victorpofa
26-07-2007, 18:49
3 'liths vs 3 'fex

fexs have 36" 2 st10 shots and 1 st8 or 2 t/l st 10 shots
'lith has 1 24" shot..... sure its AP1 but it has to get close enough.
my money is on a fex lith will never catch a fex but a fex will always catch the lith

Ah, but the Monoliths can DEEP STRIKE! Mmmwwwhahahaha! :p :cheese:

MegaPope
26-07-2007, 22:56
The Leman Russ Dyson is a curious variant of the standard tank, developed by an obscure Forgeworld in the Ultima Segmentum. Instead of turreted battle cannon, its hull mounts a unique weapon known as the triple-cyclone ingester. This weapon is designed to operate over fairly short ranges by exerting a tremendous degree of suction within a cone-shaped area directly in front of itself, capable of drawing any creature or object of Ogryn-size or smaller into its trombone-like muzzle, and thence into a mass of internally mounted high-powered rollers, likened by one Guard officer to 'a series of revolving adamantium cheesegraters'. Known in Guard slang as the 'Dustbuster' or the 'Happy Eater', the LR Dyson naturally excels when deployed in close terrain.

Standing orders dictate that care must be taken to avoid standing directly behind the tank's rear mounted exhaust nozzles when the weapon is operating, as the constant high-speed projection of metal shards, chipped rocks, bone fragments, blood and other materials is both distressing and often highly dangerous in itself, especially in the case of unexploded munitions that have survived their trip through the weapon's reinforced interior. Taking care to avoid standing in front of an operating ingester goes, naturally, without saying.

Regrettably, the LR Dyson is ineffective against heavy armour, although jet-cycle riders will quickly regret (albeit briefly) coming too close the vehicle's prow when its weapon is fully powered up. The size and complexity of the ingester mean that the tank is incapable of carrying further major weaponry, although a pintle-mounted heavy stubber is often incorporated for use by the commander in multiple roles.

Rumours of Baneblade-mounted Super-Heavy grade ingesters, capable of swallowing machines up to the size of dreadnoughts, light tanks and larger tyranid organisms have not yet been substantiated. However, a senior autocogitator went on record as saying that "with the blessings of the holy Omnissiah, we will see to it that no heretical or alien stain, whate'er its size, mars the beauty of the wondrous carpet of worlds that is His Eternal Majesty's starbound realm. Not even the really nasty ones like tumeric, blackcurrant or Tyranid acid-cultures."

--Digression Ends---

FTR, I think the Leman Russ Vanquisher excells in many battlefield roles in its own right. Unlike the normal Russ, its turret gun packs the punch to smash heavy tanks, which keeping its ability to wipe out swathes MEQs.

Chaplain Ark
27-07-2007, 01:49
I'd have to say 3 tooled up predators. in theory, thats 6 reg las cannons with 3 twin linked. At max 9 las cannon shots. that could take out anything, even a fex. But that could just be because I love the SM vehicles.

Tanith Ghost
27-07-2007, 01:56
Give me the good ol Russ standard any day with a lascann in in the sponson.

Higgen
27-07-2007, 07:26
I'm trying to figure out how "best tank in a vacuum" equates to "best tank at killing other tanks". :eyebrows:

tomgore
27-07-2007, 07:42
i'm still gonna stick with 3 'liths...they'll own 3 suped up falcons or 3 'fex..the lith is more versitale and flexible...and 3d6 particle whip will take its toll on anything and its defense is better than the falcs or the fex. and the big shot will knock holes through any other vehicle.....only thing i would like to add to this whole thing is that if you bring in baneblades...then the liths get the "we'll be back roll"....they are necron models....:cheese:

empireguard
27-07-2007, 08:01
3 baneblades, beat that

It will have to be a small tank to fit in a Vacuum

Quess Who
27-07-2007, 08:40
Ah, but the Monoliths can DEEP STRIKE! Mmmwwwhahahaha! :p :cheese:

Deep strike near a carnifex are you crazy? get closer to carnifex so it can assualt u sooner? BTW in a vacuum(space where everything has to be airtight)
the only viable options are a land raider, a lith, or a chaos pred with damonic infestation. my money then is on the chaos preds(remember a vacuum will destroy all tank crews aka suck them out) as soon as there is a hole. Any pen hit will suck out the crew. LIth survives cause i belive it has no crew

Edit: btw space is vacuum biggest vacuum there is

ThorOdensson
27-07-2007, 08:53
Space Marine Tanks should all be fine in a vacuum they can just de-pressurise as their suits are airtight.

Baneboss
27-07-2007, 09:17
What size of the board that would be. For example Hammerheads can stay out of Nidzilla triplets range.

In all honesty i have to say 3 Fireprisms. Survivability and firepower.

Quess Who
27-07-2007, 09:26
Space Marine Tanks should all be fine in a vacuum they can just de-pressurise as their suits are airtight.

but are they wearing their helmets in the tank. wouldn't that limit their vision in the tank somewhat. I still think the chaos tanks with daemonic poss would be a tad better

BrainFireBob
27-07-2007, 09:45
Three Baneblades.

Unless it's a tank battle.

Then three Stormblades.

Nazguire
27-07-2007, 13:48
Pylon Wins!

To bad the took the infinite range and made it only 240"...:mad:

Titan killer and AA mount and barrage= OWNED ShadowSword and they cost less points...

D-End

'Only' 240".

Unless you play on a board that is well over the size of a car lot, does it matter? Might as well say infinite anyways.

Isambard
27-07-2007, 14:32
For regular tanks in an open environment I would guess Hammerheads or FirePrisms - long range, fast, punch etc etc etc.

mike0fthedead kk
27-07-2007, 17:31
nah i reckon sentinels would kick everythings ****

w00t! im serious :D

nurgle_boy
27-07-2007, 17:43
3 battlefotresses, each with 3 zzapp guns, and 2 twin linked rokkits. zzapp guns do not need a roll to hit, and effectivly roll 4 dice for armour penetration (2D6 strength, +2D6 armour pen), and all of the weapons can engage seperate targets as they are superheavy. on top of this, they are AP1, so never glance, and there are the bonus rokkit shots as well. only problem is the short range...

as for the vacuum environment, the crew might as well put paper bags on their heads and say 'Im goin' out now!'. the pressure would crush it into nothingness.

Getz
27-07-2007, 17:48
So, what tank would you recommend against a falcon?


The basic Ionhead is probably the best at taking down Falcons. Lots of long range, S7 shots...

I would saw that the Railhead is probably the best overall tank in the game, followed by the Vanquisher. Falcons are great for surviablity but their firepower isn't all that impressive...

Nurglitch
27-07-2007, 18:08
So when people say "vacuum" they really mean "all else being equal". You live and learn, I guess.

Gwaihir
27-07-2007, 19:34
Falcon vs. Prism--Falcon wins because it has more shots and therefore will be able to bring the other down faster. Also the use of holofields increases the odds of losing a weapon. Since the Falcon has more, it will absorb more weapon destroyed results while still being somewhat effective.

Falcon vs. Tau Tanks--Falcon wins because it will be able to outmanouver, it has more guns so the loss of a gun won't be as problematic, and it will be able to stun the tau tank then move in for the heavy volley of rear armor shots which will be able to pentrate and bring it down.

Falcon vs. Fex--This will be more difficult for the Falcon, but with greater range and far better speed, the three Falcons can concentrate fire on individual fexes destroying them fairly quickly with the Pulse Laser. No need to come within range of the Fex.

Falcon vs. Lith--Boring, both will need about a billion shots to bring the other down. The Falcon has the edge though because of speed and range. The Lith only gets one shot a turn unless it gets within 12", but then its guns need 6s to do anything severly limiting the number of glances. The Falcon on the other hand can stay 25"+ away firing 2 shots a turn until the lucky shot finally brings the lith down.

Falcon vs. Landraider--This will be a problem for the Falcon. It can't penetrate unless it uses a bright lance, but that limits either its shots or speed, both of which are needed against other things. The advantage of speed will help, but the falcons guns are poorly equipped to stop a landraider. On the other hand a landraider will not do as well as the falcon against many other tanks, so though it may be a good match up head, to head, in the big picture it loses.

Falcon vs Other tanks with rear AV 10--those tanks are in trouble regardless of configuration. The Falcon will eventually line up a rear armor shot with 3-8 shots penetrating on 5s or better and the tank will go down.

Overall, the Falcon will the best generalist in 3 v 3 based on the standard codex options.

kiron
27-07-2007, 19:51
don't forget 3 exorcists :P

Randy
27-07-2007, 20:52
If youwant to get fancy saying it can suvive in a vacuum and under a lot fo pressure - a vacuum puts on a lot of pressure. Just it's pulling otuwards rather then pushing inwards >_>

Xarian
27-07-2007, 21:45
We would need to know what size board we're using on this. On a normal-sized board, a 36" weapon is not any kind of liability since it can still hit the entire board from most of the middle; the 'back up and shoot' strategy of the Eldar and Tau would not work.

Gwaihir
28-07-2007, 17:12
Falcon vs. Exorcist -- Falcons should have little trouble dispatching the exorcists. Where the combinded fire of the Exorcists is a maximum of 18 shots, average of 10.5, the combinded fire of the three Falcons is a steady 24 shots until weapons start being destroyed. Speaking of which, with only one weapon, it takes only one weapon destroyed result to render individual exorcists useless, but takes three such results to render an individual Falcon useless. The Falcons will wear down the exorcists to the point where they are all without weapons and or immobile, then at their leisure move in for the rear armor shots to finish them off. Defensively the Falcons can only be glanced while the exorcists can be pinned.

orangesm
28-07-2007, 18:03
Table size means a lot to this discussion. Quiet a few of the tanks named have a rather limited range (=<72") and as such can be outranged by the LR Vanquisher (96"), Basilisk(36"-240"), Medusa (36"-300"), Necron Pylon (240"), and I am sure there are some others with >72" range.
However for most table sizes and thus battles these ranges are overkill - when was the last time your Lascannon (48") was out of range of a target?

So if I could be at my max range to kill your 3 tanks with my 3 tanks - a battery of Basilisk or Manticores should do the trick. For the upclose battle some Demolishers would work well.

Chaplain Ark
28-07-2007, 21:29
I realize kind of off topic and off forum, but we are talking about tanks, so, does anyone know when the new SM Vindicator comes out? i want to get one but if the new one is coming out i don't want the old school one.

Gwaihir
30-07-2007, 15:32
You won't have too many rounds to shoot at the Falcon with those tanks. I don't know what the AVs are on the ones mentioned except the bassie, but the Falcon moving 36" per turn can close the gap very quickly. Each of those tanks only gets one shot per turn, it should scatter 2/3 of the time and usually the scatter will be enough to move the center of the template off of the Falcon. So I hit per turn would be about all that can be expected. Then you have to glance. If you manage to do that, and by now we are talking about less than one glance per turn, you still only have 1/9 chance of stopping it. Three Falcons will close the distance quickly and relatively unharmed.

If we want to get absolutely silly with range, aren't hunter-killer missiles unlimited range? I guess you will run out before downing other targets, but enough of those would be able to stop any tank by staying out of range. Of course no one is likely to be playing on a football field so that is irrelevant.

tomgore
19-09-2007, 06:31
i'm gonna go with 3 term pattern LR from the apocolypse release 5 lascannon shots per tank....unstoppable!!!!!!