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New Cult King
22-08-2005, 08:42
Has anyone had any experience, either GM-ing or playing in a D20 Star Wars game? I'm looking to buy the source books and trying an adventure, but I've heard mixed reports about it.

So what say you, yay or nay?

T10
27-08-2005, 22:59
I figure "aye".

The d20 system is by and large sound. It isn't munchkin-proof, but then again that is hardly a criteria any system can meet.

Check out publisher's message boards. http://boards1.wizards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=10

-T10

Brother Frog
27-08-2005, 23:15
We struggled with Star Wars. The Star Wars films are very VERY camp, and no one could get that out of their heads, so things became a farce.

As to the game:

Jedis have been toned down a bit, but even so, a high powered Jedi will dominate the group - especially at higher levels. :(

Kage2020
28-08-2005, 17:31
The same (farce) surely applies for any game based upon a book, TV show, film or whatever? I've always found that with a developed group of roleplayers the visual imagery of the film can bleed over, but only in creative ways of speeding up the game play.

As to Jedi-domination? Again, surely that sould be the case?

Kage

Brother Frog
28-08-2005, 18:04
As to Jedi-domination? Again, surely that sould be the case?

No, this is a bad thing. Players often ask for the GM to email them with what the Jedi does, and how the Jedi solves the adventure as there is rarely anything else for other non-jedi characters to do.

Kage2020
28-08-2005, 18:54
I'm saying that it should be the case. Jedi are powerful. Destabilising so unless other Jedi are involved. It's kind of like magic-users in a low magic campaign, depending on how it is done. Never mentioned anything about it being a good or a bad thing, just that it is a natural result of their unique powers. Frex, using mind reading powers to solve murder cases, etc. It just takes a bit more imagination to include them. (Check out suggestions in the back of GURPS Psionics for potential solutions to this problem.)

But if you allow the Jedi to snowball into something that is overpowered? Well, don't include them. Narratively there are always ways around those things and include a systemic response to limit said power is always problematic.

Kage

Brother Frog
28-08-2005, 19:13
I'm saying that it should be the case. Jedi are powerful. Destabilising so unless other Jedi are involved.

You think it is ok for one starting character to be able to do everything that all the other characters can do.....but do it better?!? Roleplaying is supposed to be about each character having their moment in the sun, not just wandering about as shields to soak up blaster shots until the jedi wipes out all the opposition!

"I'll open that door using my special skills" says the rogue. "No" replies the jedi "I can do it better, I can fight better than the bounty hunter and can pilot better than the smuggler" and does so. Unbalanced, and incredibly dull for the other players who quickly become disillusioned and bored as they are outclassed by the jedi player in every field.



The same (farce) surely applies for any game based upon a book, TV show, film or whatever?

It can do, but when we're talking about films with such camp scripts, dodgy (and at times attrociously wooden) acting and dubious plots, it is only a matter of time before it fails. At least MOST other book/tv show/film settings are able to rise above this. Have a look at the Babylon 5 setting, for example.

Also, using ropey cartoon pictures as illustrations throughout the books only makes the game look more silly and prone to game collapse.


Add these problems to the fact that D20 cannot handle massed "Missile" combat (common to all D20 settings which rely on guns), and the game is a loser.

CELS
28-08-2005, 22:38
Note that I have only tried real life RP'ing once, so my opinions should be taken very lightly.

Having a Jedi in the group can definitely be a challenge if the player intends his character to be as resourceful as Skywalker or Obi-Wan, but it should be possible for a good GM to work around this. If the Jedi is about to open a massive door with his light-saber and steal all the glory from the group 'Rogue', then let the Jedi drop his light-saber in a puddle of water. It will short-circuit and the Jedi will be left force-jumping up and down in frustration :p

Similarly, if the Jedi is proving too damned effective in combat, then tie him up with equally dangerous opponents, or cause him to lose his light saber off a cliff, like Anakin and Obi-Wan did in the movies.

If the Jedi is going around mind-tricking NPCs into oblivion, then let him run into some characters who are unaffected, such as special races, or people with special training.

Also notice that even in the movies, no Jedi was perfect. Obi-Wan was apparently a better swordsman than Anakin, but arguably a much worse pilot. Luke was a damned fine pilot and a talented swordsman, but he wasn't exactly gifted in the way of force powers. Yoda... ok, Yoda is awesome, but he's also one of the most respected Jedi in the galaxy. Not every Jedi is going to be as resourceful as that guy.

I don't see why Star Wars should be such a difficult universe for RPGs. If you have a munchkin player who wants to be the bestest Jedi in the galaxy, then chances are the same player will want to be the bestest Paladin in another universe, or the oldest Vampire, or whatever.

But you know, I'm not an RPG'er yet, so I don't really have a clue :)

Kage2020
30-08-2005, 01:38
Hmmn... Methinks that we're arguing against a common ground, but heck it is fun!


You think it is ok for one starting character to be able to do everything that all the other characters can do.....but do it better?!?
Actually, I think it is quite reasonable. I'm not saying that I would personally do it but there we go.


Roleplaying is supposed to be about each character having their moment in the sun, not just wandering about as shields to soak up blaster shots until the jedi wipes out all the opposition!
Roleplaying is about creating an interesting narrative. While I don't find the above interesting, some might. But then again, I wouldn't allow a fully-trained Jedi into the game except under, well, exceptional circumstances.


"I'll open that door using my special skills" says the rogue. "No" replies the jedi "I can do it better, I can fight better than the bounty hunter and can pilot better than the smuggler" and does so.
Well, you're getting into systemic and GM problems. There is every reason that a Jedi should be able to challenge a Rogue or, indeed, their reflexes to beat that ofa trained pilot. But we're into a conceptual problem here. For me? To borrow from a book, without strength of the spirit there is no strength in the mind.

Jedi can be Jack of All Trades...


Unbalanced, and incredibly dull for the other players who quickly become disillusioned and bored as they are outclassed by the jedi player in every field.
Don't allow Jedi if they end up like this in your games. That's the simple answer. Limiting the systemically... lacks imagination. I'm almost 100% sure you know this and, indeed, would not take that approach in your games.

In this case if you cannot figure out how to limit the power of full Jedi, then don't allow them. Don't weaken them systemically or pull out a rather lame approach whereby your character gets taken off you when you pass your Padiwan exams, or whatever! :D


Have a look at the Babylon 5 setting, for example.
I love that series. But is the problem with the players, the GM, the setting or the representation of that setting? Several of those seem obviously true...


Also, using ropey cartoon pictures as illustrations throughout the books only makes the game look more silly and prone to game collapse.
LMAO. I use GURPS. Artwork is not the strong point of that system! :D


Add these problems to the fact that D20 cannot handle massed "Missile" combat (common to all D20 settings which rely on guns), and the game is a loser.
Then ignore the system. So, erm, in that regard you win that part of the discussion! ;)


Note that I have only tried real life RP'ing once, so my opinions should be taken very lightly.
That's an experience thing. Glad to see you expanding out of the wargame, CELS. We'll make an RPG convert of you in ASP yet!


If the Jedi is about to open a massive door with his light-saber and steal all the glory from the group 'Rogue', then let the Jedi drop his light-saber in a puddle of water. It will short-circuit and the Jedi will be left force-jumping up and down in frustration
Well, an arguably hokey description given the representation of lightsabres in teh film but, with that said, that is exactly the point.


Similarly, if the Jedi is proving too damned effective in combat, then tie him up with equally dangerous opponents, or cause him to lose his light saber off a cliff, like Anakin and Obi-Wan did in the movies.
Again, entirely appropriate. The point is that systemically they can - and should - be destabilising.


Yoda... ok, Yoda is awesome, but he's also one of the most respected Jedi in the galaxy.
He's a frog.


I don't see why Star Wars should be such a difficult universe for RPGs.
Oh, it isn't.


But you know, I'm not an RPG'er yet, so I don't really have a clue
Nope, that's an entirely fair summary! :D

Kage