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Lady's Champion
30-07-2007, 15:05
Recently, this item has caused some controversy.

Say, for example, I capture the spell Invocation of Nehek? What does it do? Can I raise Skeletons? Would they instantly crumble? If not, who controls them? Any ideas?

Crube
30-07-2007, 15:07
I would say that the controlling player controls them. There's enough power to maintain a spell as well as cast it. I look at it that it is treated the same as any other remains in play spell

(that's not to say I'm right, but that's how I play it...)

Lady's Champion
30-07-2007, 15:18
You see, we decided that they would crumble instantly, with no true Necromancer to sustain them, but I thought it was a silly idea. I think they should just create and be done.

Stouty
30-07-2007, 15:23
We play it far crueler than that- we stick to the skeletons rules precisely.

To march they need to be within 12" of the general and if the general's dead they start to crumble. Also we said the general had to have magical capabilities just like he would in a real undead army.

So it's really very limited. The best reason to steal it is just to stop the enemy using it.

Masque
30-07-2007, 15:24
I'd say you should play it as close as possible to how Undead normally function. If your General is alive then no crumbling.

Lady's Champion
30-07-2007, 15:26
We play it far crueler than that- we stick to the skeletons rules precisely.

To march they need to be within 12" of the general and if the general's dead they start to crumble. Also we said the general had to have magical capabilities just like he would in a real undead army.

So it's really very limited. The best reason to steal it is just to stop the enemy using it.


BUT you don;t steal the spell from their minds forever, you only cast a copy of the spell, right? You don;t actauuly remove their ability to cast the spell do you? That would be far too good for 35 points!!!!!!! Esp. as it can't be blocked!

Atrahasis
30-07-2007, 15:28
Yes, it steals the spell. Its a brilliant item.

I have had great fun defanging Skaven SADs and Necromancer Counts armies by making the Engineers/Necros useless.

Lady's Champion
30-07-2007, 15:35
Unbelievable! That is indeed a massively good item! Why doesn;t everyone take it?!?!

Atrahasis
30-07-2007, 15:39
I don't know - it really needs to be mobile to be as useful as it can be, and that means a flying captain, which eats into Wizard/Priest slots. I personally always take the Casket Pegasus.

The best performance I've had from it so far was stealing warp lightning, destroying a unit of jezzails with the spell and then shooting the last wound off the Engineer with the Captain's pistol. The look on my opponent's face was gold.

Vomax
30-07-2007, 16:05
I don't know - it really needs to be mobile to be as useful as it can be, and that means a flying captain, which eats into Wizard/Priest slots. I personally always take the Casket Pegasus.

The best performance I've had from it so far was stealing warp lightning, destroying a unit of jezzails with the spell and then shooting the last wound off the Engineer with the Captain's pistol. The look on my opponent's face was gold.

:eek:

You've got yourself a right nasty 007 captain there!

Maldred2
30-07-2007, 19:04
I don't know - it really needs to be mobile to be as useful as it can be, and that means a flying captain, which eats into Wizard/Priest slots. I personally always take the Casket Pegasus.

The best performance I've had from it so far was stealing warp lightning, destroying a unit of jezzails with the spell and then shooting the last wound off the Engineer with the Captain's pistol. The look on my opponent's face was gold.

as a skaven general i can only say one thing:

"Squeek!" :wtf:

cisse
30-07-2007, 19:23
Unbelievable! That is indeed a massively good item! Why doesn;t everyone take it?!?!

Because it only works half of the time, and has a limited range - which means, as others have said, that it's only really useful on a mobile character. A pegasus captain works, but he's vulnerable and costs a lot of points with the Casket.

Atrahasis
30-07-2007, 20:02
Because it only works half of the time, and has a limited range - which means, as others have said, that it's only really useful on a mobile character. A pegasus captain works, but he's vulnerable and costs a lot of points with the Casket.

Yeah, 151 points with the equipment I give him IIRC, though that's not much more than a kitted out wizard.

DeathlessDraich
30-07-2007, 21:01
What happens if the bearer of the Casket is slain?

All Remains in play spells cast by the Casket bearer disappears but what about the options below:

A) The removed spell remains 'removed'.
B) The effects of the Casket are negated and the wizard regains knowledge of his lost spell
C) Roll a dice to decide

Gorbad Ironclaw
30-07-2007, 21:07
Nothing indicated that the spells are 'returned' to there previous 'owners' so they are just gone.

T10
31-07-2007, 09:52
Recently, this item has caused some controversy.

Say, for example, I capture the spell Invocation of Nehek? What does it do? Can I raise Skeletons? Would they instantly crumble? If not, who controls them? Any ideas?

This is how it works, fluff notwithstanding:

You steal the Invocation of Nehek and can cast it once. This will typically allow you to raise a unit of skeletons or zombies. At this point you might want to surprise your opponent by fishing out your own undead models to form the unit. You are required to field the raised models, after all.

If you are playing an undead army then the army composition requires your general to be a wizard. However, you are playing an Empire army and you are under no such restriction.

The unit is still Undead, however, and that comes with its very own benefits and drawbacks. The unit ...
- is immune to psychology
- causes fear
- may only hold as a charge reaction
- may not march move if more than 12" from the general (Karl Franz does not provide an 18" range for this purpose)
- crumbles instead of breaking and crumbles less if the battle stand is within range.
- takes wounds when the general is killed or if he already has been killed.

In fact, the unit behaves just as though it were part of an Undead army with the only exception being that the general is neither a wizard nor Undead.

Finally, there is the issue of wether a character can join the unit or not. The answer is yes. There is nothing preventing a non-Undead character joining an Undead unit. The rules for how you work out break tests are completely lacking, though, so you may need to improvise.

I suggest first working out the crumbling and then (if there are no Undead models remaining) the break test for the character.

-T10

Gorbad Ironclaw
31-07-2007, 10:12
Finally, there is the issue of wether a character can join the unit or not. The answer is yes. There is nothing preventing a non-Undead character joining an Undead unit. The rules for how you work out break tests are completely lacking, though, so you may need to improvise.



Thats only because it haven't been thought of when the rules were written. If it ever comes up in a FAQ you can be sure that they will say you can't. A rule of thumb is to not mix different forms of break tests(normal, crumbling, instability), and it's prevented by rules in virtually all other cases. So I'd say that you couldn't join the undead unit, as thats clearly the intention.

enyoss
31-07-2007, 10:49
- may not march move if more than 12" from the general (Karl Franz does not provide an 18" range for this purpose)


I'm not sure about this requirement to be honest. As Invocation of Nehek raises Tomb King troops, I'd say that the raised unit is bound by their rules; that is, they may not march at all.

Actually, I'm kind of surprised that Aldred's Casket applies to incantations seeing that they are not really spells.

Cheers,

enyoss

T10
31-07-2007, 10:54
I'm not sure about this requirement to be honest. As Invocation of Nehek raises Tomb King troops, I'd say that the raised unit is bound by their rules; that is, they may not march at all.

Actually, I'm kind of surprised that Aldred's Casket applies to incantations seeing that they are not really spells.

Cheers,

enyoss

The Invocation of Nehek is the name of a spell in the Vampire Counts army book.

-T10

T10
31-07-2007, 10:57
Thats only because it haven't been thought of when the rules were written.

The variant bloodline army list allows for non-Undead character to be taken in Lahmia armies, so the possibility has always been there, albeit in a fun and likely untested army.

-T10

Atrahasis
31-07-2007, 11:24
Actually, I'm kind of surprised that Aldred's Casket applies to incantations seeing that they are not really spells.Common misconception - Incantations are specifically spells for everything except casting.

enyoss
31-07-2007, 11:39
The Invocation of Nehek is the name of a spell in the Vampire Counts army book.

Indeed... and I do feel quite the fool. I always get these VC/TK undead summoning spells mixed up... it's just that I don't usually draw attention to it by posting it for all to see :).


Common misconception - Incantations are specifically spells for everything except casting.

Yup, I thought that might be the case.

Cheers,

enyoss

knightime98
01-08-2007, 06:55
Tomb Kings and Aldred's Casket.

The Casket only works on "Wizards".

Only one type of TK character is a "wizard" and thus you may ONLY steal his spells. I do not have the TK book but I think it is the Liche Priest. You may NOT steal spells from TK Characters that are not deemed to be "wizards" as Aldred's Casket says that you may steal spells from "wizards". I've had this debate many times. Have fun looking it up though on your own accord.

T10
01-08-2007, 07:19
More discussion on that topic:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81232

-T10

DeathlessDraich
01-08-2007, 11:23
Nothing indicated that the spells are 'returned' to there previous 'owners' so they are just gone.

I agree. After re-reading the Aldred's rules, the spell is gone for good!

"whereupon the spell is removed from the game"

I prefer to interpret '*the* spell' as *the* spell known (or owned) and taken from *a* wizard only.

However another possible interpretation could be that the spell that exists on the battlefield is completely removed.
e.g. Empire vs Lizards, 2 empire wizards and two Slanns knows the spell Fireball. Aldred's Casket captures Fireball from one Slann.
When it is cast through the Casket, the Empire wizards and *both* Slanns cannot use Fireball.

Any views?

T10
01-08-2007, 11:29
Yes. Only the affected wizard loses the spell. The spell is kept within the casket. The casket is used to cast the spell. The spell is removed from the casket.

It is clear (to me:)) that the spell in question is the actual stolen spell and not all instances of the same type of spell.

-T10

Gorbad Ironclaw
01-08-2007, 15:16
The variant bloodline army list allows for non-Undead character to be taken in Lahmia armies, so the possibility has always been there, albeit in a fun and likely untested army.

-T10


Even a quick read of the VC appendix lists should tell you that they are neither very carefully thought through or playtested in anyway, so using them as a rules argument is sketchy at best. And it still leaves you with rules in virtually every other case of mixing break test types prohibiting it.

T10
01-08-2007, 15:42
I take it you mean Daemons and Unbreakable models.

The only other break-test related rule I can think of is Stubborn, which does allow a mix of Stubborn and non-Stubborn models and details how these interact.

Mixing Undead and non-Undead models is simply a grey area that has not been dealt with. The general rule, however, is that characters can join units, and in most cases where this is not appropriate they are explicitly disallowed from doing so.

-T10

EvC
01-08-2007, 16:40
So for example undead characters are forbidden from joining Ghouls in the army book, but they did not think far enough ahead to apply the same logic to Dogs of War units...

It's been stated by designers before that the intention is they don't mix. Why they don't just come out and say it officially, perhaps in an FAQ, I don't know.

eldrak
02-08-2007, 20:34
I thought it was in the old DOW Faq once that they couldn't mix.
Don't have it saved and my googlefu seems weak at the moment.

Only this (and a vice versa) available:
Q. Can Regiments of Renown or Dogs of War units be joined by non-Dogs
of War Characters?

A. No.
S. Anthony Reynolds - Warhammer Design Team

Lord of Skulls
06-08-2007, 18:48
I have another question on the same topic:

What happens if the casket steals a spell that has several different power levels? (Like the summoning spells, or Drain Magic.)

a) Does it steal a single one of the versions of the spell, while leaving the others intact?
b) Does it steal the whole spell, and cast it on a random level?
c) Does it steal the whole spell, and the controlling player chooses the power level?

Any help would be appreciated:)

Atrahasis
06-08-2007, 18:49
Spells with different casting levels are still a single spell, so the casket steals the whole spell.

The casting level is decided by the casting player as normal.

Lord of Skulls
06-08-2007, 18:58
That was what I was hoping for, thanks:)

Guess I'll have to get hold of a bunch of skeletons for my Empire Army:p