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feintstar
22-08-2005, 15:06
Recently, having inherited a whole bunch of someone else's models, I've come into possession of a large number of Dire Avenger Heads.

What do do with them, I wonder? Trojans and Greeks sounds like a plan, which means chariots! But also Hoplites, and hard-as-nails combat characters.

This leaves really 2 options, possibly 3.

1. Tomb Kings, Chariot list with Infantry support.
I'm Concerned that I'll have to play 2000 points plus, otherwise I won't be able to feild chariots as core, and I'll have to be beardy and take minimised units of skeleton archers. Plus I've heard that they're A. hard to use and B. One dimensional lists. And with a Greek Theme, how can I take Tomb Scorpions, the must have of a fast TK list? They don't fit at all! Bone Giants and Ushabti could barely fit as animated statues a la colossus of Rhodes... Also, I'm trying to stay away from skeletons per se, more animated armour suits. While that works for infantry and even chariots, the Horses pulling the chariots become problematic...

2. HE, Chariot heavy plus Cavalry
I already have half a HE army, but am becoming very dissillusioned with the rules for them. Now the WE are romping all over the boards, HE look decidedly moribund. A cav + magic list is doable, but alas, thus far I have only infantry units painted... in addition, conventional chariots in XS is also supposedly boring to use and cheesy/overpowered. This concerns me greatly.

3. Switch Greek to Roman and take a VC list, namely the Sylvania list, but with 2 Black coaches as spectral chariots. Then, Towersheild and modified helmets all round, and we have a truly undead legion.

Which is the best use? can ppl address my concerns?

samw
22-08-2005, 21:32
There was a wonderfully good Greek themed list in White Dwarf using Beasts of Chaos. The whole Pan/Satyr thing rings true with them. They also have core chariots, Bestigor who are as hard as any hoplite should be, and powerful characters. Heck, most of the list is inspired by Greek Mythology, you could even include a giant as a cyclops!

Panzer MkIV
22-08-2005, 21:48
Yes my first post and a real hard one too :D

An ancient greek army was predominantly made up of a solid centre of hoplites, a forward skirmish line of auxillaries armed with javelins and flanked with light cavalry.

IMHO I think you're better of with dogs of war:

Hoplites: pikemen
auxillaries: duellists with throwing weapons
light cavalry: ;)

You can even add a unit of minotaurs (just use the rules for ogres) to add flavour to your list

Birdmen: Harpies?
Giants of Albion: Cyclops

There is even a special character that evokes a real Spartan feel to your army

I hope this helps :)

datalink7
22-08-2005, 23:17
Dogs of War get my vote as well. Pikemen already there to be Hoplites.

feintstar
23-08-2005, 00:07
Thanks guys. I had thought of DoW, but its real hard to voluntarily pick up a human hoarde list with virtually nil special rules w/o special characters and no magic items.

Plus Pikemen don't have sheilds.

There's also a big discussion as to why Pikemen are rubbish on the tactics section.

And while I've got a bunch of DA heads, It only amounts to about 25. That's enough for maybe one unit of pikes, or, 3 units of cavalry, or about 10 Chariots. Or some mixture of the above. I could buy more, but I'd have to be exceptionally enthusiastic about the list.

Beasts of Chaos sounds a little more interesting to me... Don't core chariots get Cheese shouted at them though? And don't BoC not exactly work in a regimented, legionesque fashion?

That's why my prime interest was TK... after all, Greeks and Egyptians did play the same period same tech and same tactics as Greeks, iirc.

and btw, welcome Panzer 4.

samw
23-08-2005, 00:20
The problem with DOW though of course is the lack of chariots. I don't think there's any way to get hold of them, or even any suitable proxies. I still think beasts is the best way to go, then simply hire two blocks of DOW pikemen.

Outcast995
23-08-2005, 16:02
Tomb kings would be a good choice (chariots, lots of archers, and decent combet charecters) you could change bone giant to bone cycolps, and heavly convert ushbite to make gthem look like greek gods.

Avian
23-08-2005, 16:15
If you want a "greek" army and don't want HE, then it's lizardmen all the way (sure, they may be more roman, but it's the closest you'll get).

useless
23-08-2005, 16:22
beastmen for beasts and mminotaurs?

WraithKnight
24-08-2005, 20:38
I would say a more infantry-heavy than usual HE list would work best, and they of course have chariots and other elite infantry beyond SpearElves. Plus, Dire Avenger heads look pretty elven, although 25 wouldn't be enough for an infantry-heavy list.
Just a thought.

Tormentor of Slaanesh
24-08-2005, 20:53
dogs of war. pikemen for the phalanx and ogres for monsters.

Batman
25-08-2005, 00:52
I agree with Avian, I think Lizardmen fit the Greek mode of fighting the best. You have your solid blocks of troops and excellent skirmishers and great heroes.

feintstar
25-08-2005, 02:33
I hadn't thought of Lizardmen.

Certainly they are the most Greek in terms of the way they fight... and they do have awesome rank and file plus the nutty AS heroes... pity about the chariots but oh well... problem is that it would have to be a PURE saurus Army. Skink priests are T 2, as are all skinks, which kind of puts them out of contention - I was hoping to have humanoids who could wear the helmets... Almost a "giants of the ancient days" sort of feel...

Would such an army work? Lots of Saurus blocks, using the mark for extra dispell dice?

Somehow think of a magical way in which big horses (beefed up Brettonian style warhorses) could cause fear and be stupid...

Possiby get DOW light cavalry added in...

Plus would it ever make a rules difference to unify the light armour and the scaly skin save into heavy armour etc? ( I can think of 1 rare occasion actually... Wyrmslayer swords would have to be put on special)

rune
25-08-2005, 14:52
high Elves all day long.. why is it even a choice?

Clearly GW was thinking of Greeks when they created the High Elven fluff. Oh.. they live on a round island that looks JUST like the isle of Therra{sp?} Minoans' home pre-volcano just south of Greece in the Aegean Sea. As for appearance, the pointy metal helmets, all looking the same, is distinctly done in hellenistic greek style, ie; high elf spearmen are the closest looking thing to Hoplites you'll find, and with 3 ranks fighting with spears when charged, they unfortunately might most closely represent them in the rules. (aside from pikemen)

Like someone else said, an ancient greek army was made up of a center of hoplites in a phalanx, skirmishers with javelins(or slings) to go ahead and harass, and to force the enemy toward the phalanx. Typically the greeks had cavalry to cover their phalanx flanks, so as to keep them nigh invincible in front-on fighting. This cavalry wasn't very heavily armed or armored, and was not used as heavy cavalry. It was used to protect flanks, to make convienent flank charges, and most importantly to run down the fleeing enemy. They also employed archers in a traditional manner.

For these reasons, High Elves fit the picture perfectly. An army made of a few spearmen blocks, plenty of shadow warriors, some archers, some chariots, but NO SILVERHELMS or DRAGON PRINCES, just Ellyrian Reavers. Try that on for size. :)


Though I must say, if I wanted to design a true greek style army I'd use Dogs of War. This gives you complete freedom with the miniatures.. to make them look as close to the real thing as you can. Pikemen would be great rules for hoplites, pikemen cant have shields? your models can.. they just.. wont do anything. Its the look that counts, right?

A hoplite would be most accurately represented in Warhammer with a miniature along the lines of..

HE Spearmen upper half of body. Clip ears. :evilgrin: Take a white lion bottom half, with the knee-high skirts(hopelites armor and clothing didnt typically go past their knees), and glue those two together. Try to pose into a position where the spear is pointing forwards. Ditch the high elven shields and stick on a big round shield, im not sure which but theres a million styles. That would be a pretty close representation.. and too much work for me!

rune
25-08-2005, 15:02
Oh yeah, Dogs of War rules employ Ogres as someone else said, but how about some one eyed cyclops for ogres!! How much more greek can you get?

Avian
26-08-2005, 13:53
high Elves all day long.. why is it even a choice?
Because he already had one high elf army and didn't want another?

Yes, the HE are more like the greeks / macedons than the lizzies, but the lizzies are the most greek of the rest.

rune
26-08-2005, 17:24
well.. he could always do a Tilean Empire army for a twist.

Tilea is roughly supposed to be Italianesque right? So why cant they employ some Hoplite-looking pikemen, or spearmen for that matter .. if he chose them? The models are completely at your disposal. If it is made by GW, or a collection of pieces of models made by GW, it represents a human, and has a stick with a point at the end in his hands, he's officially an Empire spearman, or pikeman for that matter.

Plus the Roman sounding names would make most sense, as in the Warhammer world, the Tileans could be speaking Latin right? And who would be closer to Rome than that, not including the High Elves, of course. If he wanted it authentic, he should only take archers, skirmishers, light cavalry, and spear/pike armed infantry mostly, maybe a cyclops giant or group of cyclops ogres or 'titans', with one or two exceptions of course. For war machines.. the bolt thrower would be fine, as would any catapult style weapon, no gunpowder of course.

Romans & Greeks were human, thus if he doesnt want another High Elf army, the closest representation he could get IMO would be a Human army. The lizardman army itself does play quite similar to how roman legions were used 'back in the day', skirmishing skinks throwing javelins(pilum) with saurus infantry for legionaries.. cold one riders for light cavalry, too.

I might add that I also think an undead army themed up as dead ancient romans or greeks would be simply awesome. So awesome its peaked my interest in a possible future Tomb Kings project, :). I'd personally do that over lizzies too but.. im partial to warm blood, or none at all!

Adlan
27-08-2005, 11:38
Rune, It's a brilliant idea.
But he's after a greek army. Not a roman one (though a roman army would rule)
And for greeks I see several possibilities and all have been said.

DoW. It's all there. Pikemen, Light infantry (Dullists) and Light cavalrey. Though it represents a mercenary army during the independant city state wars of italy rather than a greek army it should do.

Acalanti fellowship. (With shields added. use as ordinary pikemen with heavy armour)
light cavlry. (use with spears, as swords were very exspensive in hellenic days)
Call the characters hellenic names and stick them in the pike regiments,

rune
27-08-2005, 13:41
You are most correct.

I dont know, everything I've ever known about Warhammer put an equal sign between High Elves & Greeks in my head, making it darned hard to think of a worthy notion. The Greeks did have cities in Southern Italy & Sicily before the Romans officially existed, so one could go with the Tilean theme for a Greek army if their models looked appropriate.

Theres a teeny crete-style island south of Tilea on this map with a city called Sartosa; that could be a good place. Heres a map of it upclose..
http://www.warhammer.net/download.php?file=maps/Sartosa/map-sartosa.jpg

The two southern Tilean towns on the east coast of Tilea(where the more Greek influence would be if the Greeks existed in Warhammer anyways) called Monte Castello and Pavezzano. I am not positive this map is 100% accurate.. take a look.
http://www.warhammer.net/download.php?file=maps/Tilea/Tilea_5.gif

Adlan
27-08-2005, 13:49
Another point is, are you gonna play this in a tournament or other gw run place.
Cos if Not.
Just buy whatever models you like and play Cout as.

You decide to use lizard men with some historical figures?
go for it.

Thos pikemen, they are saurus with spears, sheilds and scaly skin.
Those pikemen with lots of armour. They are saurus with spears, shields and mark of quetzl (5+scaly skin)
these guys on horse men are dow light cavelry or tichi hutchis raiders.
This war elephant. It's a stegadon.

this even works if you want to use gw minitures and just play it as count as.
So so long as you exsplain what your army is count as, (I recommend a list and verbal guide) you'll be fine.
These Acalanti fellowship wit shields. There my saurus with spears. This guy here. He's my oldblood.
This war elphant it's a stegadon.