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kamedake88
31-07-2007, 16:47
I was going to post this in another thread as a response to will the Emperor get a part in a Horus heresy novel. I decided against it because it would have been rude of me to detract from Ktotwf very valid question. so this ended in a rant please feel free to comment. The basic premise of my supposed question is; does GW have allot to own up to with its excellent and very deep but ultimately poorly put together and inconsistent fluff or would you rather the fulff stays the say and all the errors stay as they are. I am for the former obviously but let me restate that this is by no means a bash I just want GW to fix some of its stuff.

I do believe we will see a novel with The Emperor (Ian) as a character, be it main or supporting. Whether or not it will happen is a moot point. While I love speculation I'd rather not see this hyped and have another heart attack in line of them due to GW and BL ministrations. They keep stuff a secret to enhance the mystic of their product but honestly, isn't this cliffhanger motif in our society today getting a little old.

First every TV show I am into has its viewer ship locked into the mindf**k they call good programming. Then they have the audacity end the dam thing with a cliffhanger. Case and pint the sopranos. I followed that dam show for years and boom they end it with a life goes on blackout. I am seeing the same thing with warhammer 40k but on a much larger scale of f**dupness due to the already sketchy details and inconsistencies that GW has failed to address . Now the fan base is left with the empty acceptance that all the 40k info is from the Imperial point of view and that makes it alright to accept discrepancies. Thats is just bad customer relations and marketing in my opinion.:mad:

sorry about the rant, I just believe that GW has allot to fix in its product. also any proposed solutions would be much appreciated

electricblooz
31-07-2007, 17:08
In all honesty, i really didn't follow half of what you said in your post, so it may be that i'm actually agreeing with you. If that's the case, then yeah! otherwise, "to eahc his own."

What you have to remember is the GW (even Black Library) is ultimately selling you a setting for writing your own stories and not a story in and of itself.

The difference is exactly the points that you have noted. GW creates vinettes that do not conclude, they only set up further stories. They have absolutely zero interest in telling you what happens when the Eye of Terror finally spills its guts, or when HiveFleet Whatever hits Earth, or when Rha Drahna comes, because after those events the stories are over, pack up your little figures and move on to the next game....

I actually find it very interesting that GW is producing Apocolypse at all. Rumors suggest that Apocolypse will even override the rules against the Eldar Phoenix Lords appearing on the field together. According to established Eldar fluff, that won't happen until the end of the universe. In addition, there's a lot of fluff (supposedly0 in the box that relates to the Necrons armies and their waking up. Honestly, Apoc sounds to me like a toolset to play the end of the world.....

EarlGrey
31-07-2007, 17:19
I disagree with us ever "meeting" the Emperor in the novels. It just wouldn't be right, and I don't think any writing talent can really do justice to him. The Primachs are presented in an extremely grand and awe inspiring way, and if the Emperor is leagues above them, then there is simply no way for him to be "in" (as himself) a book. In a way, he's been hyped up so much that any writing to describe him in person would be a let down.

The inconsistencies in fluff are the result of such a great an huge mythos penned by many, many different people, coupled with the "this idea is better than what we had originally" way of re-writing certain things.

Perhaps the inconsistencies are deliberate to keep you guessing?

Although, I really don't think there are so many problems as to render any of the background invalid, so I'm not quite sure as to why you're so angry.

Green Shoes
31-07-2007, 17:29
The Emperor was in a novel, in fact. One of the Jaq Draco novels, IIRC. Granted he was insane out of his mind(s), but he was in one nonetheless.

GreenDracoBob
31-07-2007, 17:33
electricblooz has it right. GW creates a setting for you to play the game in. The holes in the fluff are deliberately put there so you, as the gamer, can fill it in with your own ideas.

For example, the two lost Marine Legions. They are there so you can say "My army is a successor to Legion XI." The holes are so you can make whatever you feel like and have it still fit. The cliffhangers so GW can keep selling you miniatures.

Cherubael
31-07-2007, 17:44
It may be frustrating for some not to see the ending of the major plot points of 40k - Will Chaos win? Will the Emperor return? The Wolftime etc. - but as others have said as soon as that happens its the end of 40k as we know it, which would most likely result in a similar situation as the Vampire:The Masquerade RPG, with an almost identical setting replacing the one that ended.

Instead of focusing and getting annoyed with the lack of resolution for the main plot points, perhaps you should look more at the smaller events- at least we know who won the Third War for Armageaddon, we'll know the fate of Gaunts Ghosts etc. - for your conclusion fix

chrome_ghoul
31-07-2007, 17:55
Indeed, we have already seen the Emperor in the novel Draco. I think if he shows up in the HH novels he will bear no resemblance to the insane muti-mind that Inquisitor Jaq Draco met. Draco met him towards the end of the 41st millenium ten thousand years after the heresy and his internment into the golden throne. I doubt we will see him do much in the HH novels, but we may just catch a glimpse of him fighting Horus.
My best guess is that they won't show the end of the big fight, but it will be retold by Rogal Dorn to the remaining loyal primarchs.

Alexandr Ulyanov
31-07-2007, 17:57
They need to set some basic things straight.

The emperor is or is not getting up?
I like the fluff where he is going to be completely reincarnated(some parts of him are doing so all the time through sensei), though, and there is nothing chaos can do to stop him unless they destroy his body before that happens. This is an older fluff thing, and makes for a more interesting chaos v. imperium fight(chaos must invade and imperium must hold them off until the emperor returns) than "the imperium is crumbling and chaos has unlimited recurring daemon forces anywhere near the growing warp storms so the imperium is doomed," which is what I hear a lot of from novel enthusiasts.

Did the emperor maim himself or did horus do it? how much?
I'm pretty sure one of my old GW books says the emperor flash-mummified himself by channeling too much power into his force weapon while he obliterated horus's body and soul permanently. Cool. However, there is also the "Horus cut him up while the emperor held back" perspective and a "horus was almost as good as fighting as the emperor and maimed him in fair combat" view.

Do Blood Angels still get their geneseed from Sanguinius in stasis?

What REALLY happened to the zoats? (I know they formed the hivemind, but that's not official fluff yet) There were more of them than tyranids when they were in the hive fleets. Not exactly numbers that just disappear overnight form imperium interference.

What REALLY happened to the squats? The squats are abhumans and loosely, imperial citizens. They are not confined to their own section of space nor did they have a single homeworld, so there have to be some out there. Heck, more humans could mutate into squats too in the meantime. I'm not saying they need an army again, just tell us they still exist or give us more than a cop-out "the tyranids ate them all everywhere they were at once" answer.

Shibboleth
31-07-2007, 18:02
I like to look at such discrepancies as the nature of myth.
It's frequently stated that "Records from those days are sketchy at best", "lost in history", "the truth will never be known for sure" and so on.

Look at all the different Inquisitorial factions. They've each got their own opinion on the nature of the Emperor, the Imperium, what the future will be, etc.

If the Horus Heresy artbook's fluff differs to RT era fluff, which is then different to the HH novels, or 2nd Edition Codexes, just take it as if they're all by different Scribes telling things in their own way, from their own perspective.
It takes imagination though ;) ...and you're free to settle on what version you like best.


Bill King has already written a detailed story of the final battle anyway (I can post it for you if you want) which is the basis for the final battle in the HH artbooks. The Emperor also has many other speaking parts in that series, along with pictures even. I don't think a novel appearance would hurt at all.

Actually I'd like to see a prequel novel about his ancient history and rise to power on Earth, leading up to the Great Crusade and the current HH novels.

The_Outsider
31-07-2007, 18:12
The reason why people keep asking "who are the missing primarchs?" is because when a compelling story has a what if? at the end of it or bits missing people WILL try and fill in the holes/find the answers.

GW has it sorted - provide jsut enough info for people to go "cool, but was it really him that did it?"

GW "DUNNO LOL" (more precisely it would be "that would be telling....").

Light of the Emperor
31-07-2007, 18:40
As has been said, GW does indeed leave openings for gamer's creativity. I actually created a Grey Knight force based on survivors of the Eisenstein/loyalists of the traitor legions. They don't exactly tell you what happened to these characters so you are free to do with them as you please.

But, it still ticks me off that I don't have a conclusive ending to things. What about Lion El' Jonson? Will Cypher save or destroy the DA? Does Guilliman heal? Where are the lost legions, etc etc etc.
I am content with hints of endings though...GW does well to throw those in every now and then.

Keichi246
31-07-2007, 18:41
I think most of the above have it correctly.

Fluff wise:
Warhammer 40k is a time of myth and superstition. People pray to the machine gods just to get their toast in the morning. Just muttering the word "Horus" is enough to get you arrested on some planets - to be interviewed by some very unpleasant people with some very unpleasant questions.

Not even the Inquisition knows the full truth of what happened during - well - anything. Note the fact that they purge the records of all traces of a chapter if it goes rogue, hide the nature of, and stories about Demons, etc - EVEN from ITSELF.

There are NO unimpeachable sources in the 40k verse.

Corporate Wise: It is in GW's best interest to keep things loose and flexible - to throw a lot of plot hooks out there. That way there is room in the future to wiggle and adjust things a bit. That way if they need to make an adjustment - they can do it.

Besides - knowing the full truth of everything in the 40k verse would be really depressing...

DarkSoldier
31-07-2007, 18:48
Honestly, Apoc sounds to me like a toolset to play the end of the world.....
Hence the name "Apocalypse."

ChaosMaster
31-07-2007, 18:51
Fix the fluff by making up your own. When I started buying GW models I did so to use them in a roleplay game unrelated to GW and Warhammer. I made up stories and background for the terrific GW minis I bought. Later when I bought the Warhammer and 40K rulebooks, I was surprised a bit to see that everything had been done already when it came to background since I had been refereeing roleplay games since the days before pre-made game world modules. However, I understand why GW created all that background, it does help sell the product.

However, to me the best part of fantasy miniatures has always been imagining the background stories and mythology myself. There's nothing to stop anyone from doing that within the confines of their own little game world and miniatures collection. They are your miniatures, you likely bought, built, converted and painted them to fit your own imagination and there's no reason why you have to be bound to the mythology created by GW. GW's ready-made background gives players from all over a common ground with which to relate about the hobby, but you don't have to live by it every moment. Let your imagination run free.

The Anarchist
31-07-2007, 19:09
i think for he msot part im happy to leave the major story lines such as missing legions, Wolf time and emperor reborn. however it might be nice for GW to finish som story lines like Eye of Terror! i men massive massive build up and player involvment and the end effect is; well its all on the brink and stll going meaning...........well basicly everythings the same as it was.

however i do belive some fluff needs to be got down in deffinate, so stop changing it or letting authors make new inconsitancies if at all possible. as for some of the smaller mini outstanding storie might be nice if these were more ocasionaly added to maybe ended. so some mre details of Cypher after 3 years might be nice, or fabius Bile, whats happened to Ghazkull? etc the list goes on.

Randy
31-07-2007, 22:18
Ghazkull got SLAPPED probably.

Apoc is still a smaller scale then epix and the phoenix lords have already appeared on a planet to help hold back chaos - it was in the WD that Maugan Ra had his stats published in I think.. But a good few phoenix lords were involved.

The Imperium is obviously crumbling seeing how chaos essentially have an unlimited number of daemons. The imperium is screwed seeing how the EoT campaign was a chaos win - the 13th crusade should in theory be the final crusade.

As soon as the machine god wakes up chaos marines will go into hiding, as will all its tanks/titans and the imperium will get owned. The inquisition will probably try and wipe out the tech priests and stuff too judging them as heretics seeing how they've been praying to a ctan.

Personally I think the missing legions wil probably be 1 chaos and 1 loyalist, or both loyalist. They will appear in the "final fight" that wil essentially swing the balance between the imperium/universe and chaos. Lets face it. Once the chaos marines are all dead and the gods of chaos don't feel like ressurecting them anymore the imperium, presuming it still has marines, will be able tocope with any rebellions.

Inconsistencies can be explained by inquisitors purging 1 too many documents or simply twisting events to suit themselves better. Leaders have done it throughout history - why woudl human nature suddenly change in 40,000 years?

Gutlord Grom
31-07-2007, 23:35
Actually, in the follow up, the Chaos Legions were beat back by the Imperial Navy. So actually, the campaign is now a Imperial win in the background. The Imperium is crumbling, but not that fast.

I doubt a few thousand Marines will change the fate of everything, plus Chaos has mortal worshippers besides Chaos Marines, and can raise the dead, sdo it really doesn't matter how many die.

As for the Imperium, Marines will exist as long as the Imnperium lasts, and probably beyond that.

SamaNagol
01-08-2007, 00:45
The official line has been "Inconsistencies in the background are due to the 'fluff' being written from different perspectives and therefor you will get different versions of events from different sources"

Which is pretty acceptable.

However there are things which are glaringly inconsistent and that shouldn't actually be there.

It normally is most noticeable in art work. I don't want to see Beakies in pre-heresy illustrations. Or new Mk vehicles either.

Partisan Rimmo
01-08-2007, 01:39
Honestly, most of the fluff inconsistences that spring to my mind can be counted on one hand. (Assuming we grant GW the luxury of only including things after the first initial few years)


For a 20 year old franchise, that's pretty damn good.


Oh, and yes, no Emperor as a character or I will be greatly dissapointed. In all honesty, I didn't really want the Primarchs as characters, esppecially not Horus, since by the very end he is the equal of the Emperor. But then, I guess, BL can never resist going for something big and loud and flashy.

kamedake88
01-08-2007, 02:04
Cool I didn't expect all these responses and I am glad for them. Sorry about the initial incoherency of the original post, as I was going on no sleep and a little green tea. But I'm am not really pissed about the fluff as some have said rather I am a little ticked at the lack of GW not retconning some of the most important stuff. but meh as you say it is up to the player to fixed those gaps and make warhammer both fantasy and 40k what you will.

on the point of the emperor appearing in one of the books I do think that he will appear in the book as a minor character. But my guess is that he will be handled like sanguineous in the first two books of the Horus Heresy Series. Sany appears only to give a few blurps of wisdom and then is only thought about by the character the book centers around. But from what I have heard from someone ( yea its complete speculation) that there will probably be a book focusing on the custodian guard mainly constantin Valdor or through the eyes of malcador who is ultimately a man.

sabre4190
01-08-2007, 02:14
I think one of the big incosistencies of the fluff happened when the necron book came out. The ctan became gods and had a huge conflict with the old ones. Thus, a bunch of new inconsistencies were create in terms of old fluff. However, I understand that this is acceptable because they ultimately gave the ctan a cool role and the necrons personality for the first time.

I think alot of these incosistencies are a result of GW clearing up the grey area in the fluff and creating new grey area. After all, we wouldnt want the fluff to be completely consistent and unchanging. To do this, they do have to make touch ups.

The horus heresy books seem to try and end those incosistencies while clearing up grey area. They want them to be real GW canon, instead of a bunch of conflicting reports.

and btw, there will never be a final battle. why? because a final battle means no more war. and thats bad for game where the purpose and indeed name, focus on war.

Partisan Rimmo
01-08-2007, 02:26
People mention the C'tan introduction being inconsistent, but I just don't see it.

Yes, it was all quite radically new material. But what did it contradict?

Alexandr Ulyanov
01-08-2007, 03:57
esppecially not Horus, since by the very end he is the equal of the Emperor.
:wtf:
No. Horus is a single guy. The emperor is thousands of powerful ancient psykers who formed a single mind to lead humanity. Emperor>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>horus.

vipernyc
01-08-2007, 04:37
The Emperor has a small appearance in the middle of Horus' visions in False Gods