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mistformsquirrel
31-07-2007, 19:10
Strange topic title I know, but I have two very different questions, and didn't want to open two threads.

The first is rather straightforward - I can see why the Imperium uses Titans, and I can see why the orks use Gargants... but why do the Eldar use Titans? To me it just strikes me as almost entirely opposite their mode of war, in the same way a Tau titan would be vastly out of place.

What am I missing there? What is it that makes an Eldar Titan fit? Surely they can't be /that/ fast and maneuverable can they be? The only explanation I've been able to think of in musing on the subject is that Eldar Titans might be more akin to anime mecha (fast and hyper maneuverable), whilst Imperial Titans tend to be more akin to the western "Battletech" style mecha. But still... that's just hard for me to think of on the 40k battlefield.

The other completely unrelated question, is what kind of air/fightercraft could a Pre-Heresy Imperial army have reasonably been expected to count on? Would they be using the same type of fighters as are presently available? (Lightnings, Thunderbolts, etc?) Or would there have been totally different planes?

I'm especially interested because while most Chaos weaponry dates from the Pre-Heresy era, their starfighters seem... well, unique. Are they based on a long-dead Imperial design? Or are we looking at one of the few situations where Chaos has completely done its own thing?

Sorry to ask so many questions >.< As people have probably figured out by now, I'm a curious person!

VanHel
31-07-2007, 19:40
I don't know about the second question, but I could easily see an Eldar Titan pulling off ninja like stunts on the battlefield.

heretics bane
31-07-2007, 20:09
Well titans are used basicly as walking gun platforms basicly and eldar titans are incredibly agile, hence why there so skinny but just as or more powerful than an imperial titan.

Air craft pre-heresy where more powerful than post heresy ones as lot where made using STC's and are now lost, like the titans of post-heresy are terrible compared to the pre-heresy ones as the ad mech lost the STC to make them

And chaos usually get alot of there weapons from looting forge worlds or any highly advanced world for nice new deadly weapons and they probebly have a few rogue Ad Mech tech-priest's working for them and not all stuff is looted defilers where desighned and built by rogue tech-priests at the behest of abbadon the despoiler so chaos are more than capale of making more advanced weapons but not as fast as the imperium

I hope all that helps

Minister
31-07-2007, 21:08
The Eldar titans do seem to fit the Mecha type far better than the Imperial ones, particularly the Revenant which goes so far as to be equipped with jump jets to bounce about the place.

Marauders and Thunderbolts date from the Heresy era, according to the White Dwarf in which they were first released. The Lightning is a later recreation.

CELS
31-07-2007, 22:03
Even more so than the Imperium, the Eldar use Titans because it's cool. I mean, having Imperial Titans is awesome, but what's the point in having them, if they can't have Godzilla-like duels with other huge alien mechs? There's really no point in asking why, when it comes to questions such as these, because any answer will be based on paper-thin logic such as "to deploy their big guns".

But yes, they are more agile than their Imperial counterparts. As mentioned above, Revenants have jump packs, and furthermore the Eldar Titans in the Epic wargame count as having a 360 degree field of fire, to represent their superior agility.

Chilltouch
31-07-2007, 22:06
Not only did half of the Legions Astartes turn during the Heresy, but half of the Adeptus Mechanicus did as well. They develop their own weapons and warmachines on dark and Daemonic planets that dwell in the Eye of Terror. I wouldn't think they would do that much looting, HB. Leave that to the Orks.

Anyway, the Eldar Titans really are that fast and agile from what I know. At least, they should be. While normal Imperial Titans are slow, hulking monstrosities, Eldar Titans could probably do feats of dexterity that would probably outclass a human acrobat today.

However, about Imperial Aviation, no clue, sorry.

mistformsquirrel
01-08-2007, 01:20
Hmm... well I guess my question about Eldar titans has been answered! Thanks.

Kinda cool now that I'm able to imagine them sprinting across the battlefield full bore, whilst the slower but more fortress like Imperial titans sit back and fire. Neat stuff >.<

More info on the aviation side is definitely needed though <@_@> appreciate everyone who's answered so far, I just hunger for knowledge <._.>; I are a weird one.

Would the Aeronautica Imperialis book have any info in it? Or is it more a rulebook than background resource?

SV_Harlequin
01-08-2007, 01:23
Eldar Titans don't really walk, they are meant to sort of hover/skim across the ground and can move sort of like a Gundam

CELS
01-08-2007, 01:31
Are you kidding? Source please! :eek:

kikkoman
01-08-2007, 02:17
Strange topic title I know, but I have two very different questions, and didn't want to open two threads.

The first is rather straightforward - I can see why the Imperium uses Titans, and I can see why the orks use Gargants... but why do the Eldar use Titans? To me it just strikes me as almost entirely opposite their mode of war, in the same way a Tau titan would be vastly out of place.

What am I missing there? What is it that makes an Eldar Titan fit? Surely they can't be....

Some Eldar enjoy killing things in a gigantic robot powered by their grandpa's soul. Others like to crawl through bushes and kill stuff with chainswords instead of shooting them with plasma cannons.

The imagery is cool. That's basically what 40k runs on. It's also why some Eldar ride dragons (who are also the ones with the dinosaur wrestling giant robots).

Eldar mecha remind me of the Macross/Robotech aliens. Got them tall tall legs.
http://www.toysnjoys.com/macrosstoys/yamato_queadluun-rau2.jpg
40k came around the time of Robotech and pirated beta tapes too.

Some people like to say Five Star Story's mecha would make good Eldar titans. I think they'd be even better for the Imperium. The battletech look doesn't suit arcane walking cathedrals. They're the apex of humanity's millenia long history, ought to be less orky.
Cathedral bot with churches for feet is still an awesome idea though.



Are you kidding? Source please!
Revenant Titan's 40k rules has it move like a skimmer, it's got skirt thrusters n' stuff.

Iracundus
01-08-2007, 02:18
Revenants have jump jets, but Phantoms and Warlocks do not so those larger Titans still have to walk or run along the ground.

Hellebore
01-08-2007, 02:40
I certainly see Eldar titans as more gundam/evangelion in movement. envisaging one sprinting past an enemy titan in that anime crouch with a crackling powerfist (followed by prerequisite slow-mo passing and said titan falling in two parts) is very cool.

Another thing is that the titan is plugged directly into the soul of the eldar - there are no joysticks or anything. The titan becomes their body, and it moves like one.

I can't quite remember what the speed of a Phantom is in Epic, but it is significantly faster than that of imperial or ork titans. The revenant is iirc the fastest titan in the game.

Don't forget that the holofield relies on the titan's movement as well - the faster it moves, the harder it is to see. This would make slow eldar titans very vulnerable to enemy fire.

I really, really like the new revenant design, it is much more graceful and deadly than the old battlepod on backward knees.

I'm in the process of sculpting a 40k scale phantom that I will make as posable as possible - I want to model it up in the position I described earlier :evilgrin:

Hellebore

mistformsquirrel
01-08-2007, 02:49
Hellebore, that would be so far beyond badass I can't even *BEGIN* to describe >.<

Puffin Magician
01-08-2007, 04:18
It really does boil down to ceramic ninjamechs vs. 70-ton elephants. That's sorta the whole Eldar v Imperium in general.

Envisaging one sprinting past an enemy titan in that anime crouch with a crackling powerfist (followed by prerequisite slow-mo passing and said titan falling in two parts) is very cool.After just getting back from seeing Transformers again, I can definitely see the the Phantom lunging it's spindly frame around punching and blasting things. I think it would have maneuvering jets but not be able to "fly" like the Revenant does. Agreed on Holofields, they're the primary defence mechanism and as with the entire Eldar army speed is a necessity.

I can't quite remember what the speed of a Phantom is in Epic, but it is significantly faster than that of imperial or ork titans. The revenant is IIRC the fastest titan in the game.Phantom has a 25cm move, which outruns a Reaver and nearly keeps up with the Warhound [not bad for something 18 storeys tall]. The Rev kicks it up at 35cm which allows it to keep up with Falcons and other Eldar Armour.

...the new revenant design ...is much more graceful and deadly than the old battlepod on backward knees.Aw, c'mon man. Give the chicken walker some <3. That thing was gorgeous compared to the weird-looking Reaver.

pookie
01-08-2007, 09:05
I don't know about the second question, but I could easily see an Eldar Titan pulling off ninja like stunts on the battlefield.



Anyway, the Eldar Titans really are that fast and agile from what I know. At least, they should be. While normal Imperial Titans are slow, hulking monstrosities, Eldar Titans could probably do feats of dexterity that would probably outclass a human acrobat today.




Care to provide quotes/back up?

Eldar titans are certainly agile, they can move faster than Imp/Ork equivelants, i can even see them moving/walking like a Eldar ( eg titans walk like humans but in a mechanical way if you get my meaning - im still waking up at the mo ) but they by no means can back flip, roundhouse kick etc.

Sai-Lauren
01-08-2007, 10:34
I think most of the Eldar warmachines and tech were originally designed to fight the Necrons, in particular the Dathedi screens (Necron Gauss weapons can punch through the heaviest armour with ease, so the best way to survive is not to be hit in the first place). So I guess the question then becomes what did the Necrons have that led the Eldar to develop their Titans?

I don't think a giant Necron-shaped mech really fits (and besides which, is so cliched it's ridiculous ;)), maybe some "super-monolith" or that Harvester that had some concept art floating around a couple of years ago would be more like it.

ThorOdensson
01-08-2007, 11:18
I think most of the Eldar warmachines and tech were originally designed to fight the Necrons, in particular the Dathedi screens (Necron Gauss weapons can punch through the heaviest armour with ease, so the best way to survive is not to be hit in the first place). So I guess the question then becomes what did the Necrons have that led the Eldar to develop their Titans?

I don't think a giant Necron-shaped mech really fits (and besides which, is so cliched it's ridiculous ;)), maybe some "super-monolith" or that Harvester that had some concept art floating around a couple of years ago would be more like it.

And Human Titans were probably created in response to Eldar and Ork Titans.

Chilltouch
01-08-2007, 11:28
Eldar Titans probably move much faster than Imp/Ork equivelants. I can easily see them running like one of the Eldar. Maybe I originally over-exaggerated, but it is probably as flexible and as agile as a member of the Eldar, and can do whatever physical actions it can do easily. Rather than working like an Imperial Titan, taking all of the blows as it clunks towards the enemy, I see an Eldar Titan ducking and weaving underneath the attacks of the enemies as it runs forward, side-stepping, crouching, dodging out of the way of melee attacks and yes, maybe even backflips.

That is how I see Eldar Titans. However, a source to back this up? There is none. I see 40K in my own, slightly altered way where the figures for everything are actually sensible. I don't have the IA book in which Eldar Titans are within - that would probably shed like on their agility.

EDIT:


I think most of the Eldar warmachines and tech were originally designed to fight the Necrons, in particular the Dathedi screens (Necron Gauss weapons can punch through the heaviest armour with ease, so the best way to survive is not to be hit in the first place). So I guess the question then becomes what did the Necrons have that led the Eldar to develop their Titans?

I don't think a giant Necron-shaped mech really fits (and besides which, is so cliched it's ridiculous ;)), maybe some "super-monolith" or that Harvester that had some concept art floating around a couple of years ago would be more like it.

Who knows, maybe back in the day, the C'tan probably had much, much bigger Necrodermi.

Minister
01-08-2007, 11:50
And the Eldar/C'Tan fights ended up looking like something out of Evangelion, with the C'Tan taking the place of the Angels.

*Suhdder*

Did I mention that I hate that show?

CELS
01-08-2007, 12:27
Even if Revenants do count as skimmers in 40k, that doesn't mean they actually float around. Rules tend to be abstract in order to be semi-appropriate for the individual units. For example, Vultures and Valkyries count as skimmers in Epic, but that doesn't mean they actually tend to hover a few feet over the ground when in transit, such as land speeders or jet bikes.

And even if GW did write that Revenants hover over the ground like some giant mecha, controlled by some twin schoolgirl Eldar with pigtails, I would just ignore it, personally. Just like I'm doing with more and more fluff these days :D

Slaaneshi Slave
01-08-2007, 12:43
I don't have my books handy at the moment, but I'm sure the Revenant uses its jump jets to bound across the battlefield. They are simply used to provide extra thrust, to stay in the air longer when they jump, they can't be used to actually fly.

Commissar_Sven
01-08-2007, 14:06
Revenants not only count as skimmers but they are also fast vehicles.

When compared to a Warhound the Revenant is about 55pts cheaper but doesen't have the sheer destructive power that its imperial counterpart does.I also should add that of the two the Revenant would come out on top in a strait fight unless the Warhound is toughting plasma blast guns then the eldar are in for some serious pain.

Slaaneshi Slave
01-08-2007, 14:59
In a balanced force the Revenant comes out on top every time. With a rerollable (Fortune) 4+ invulnerable, and the fact that it may only be glanced means the Warhound can't hurt it. It is even more useful against infantry, as with the 24" movement instead of 6" you can force whole chunks of the enemy force to fall back.

Commissar_Sven
01-08-2007, 16:37
Plasma blast guns have the titan killer property which means that it inflicts the loss of d3 structure points if it damages the vehicle or destroys anything without structure points. Also you must remember that Revenants are armour value 12 all around, I can kill it with a grenade launcher. One more thing, A warhound can move 12" and still fire a weapon same as the Revenant.

Puffin Magician
01-08-2007, 17:38
So I guess the question then becomes what did the Necrons have that led the Eldar to develop their Titans?A paradox created by retconning too much fluff?

The Eldar were given Titans so they had something to slap around Warlords in Epic: 40,000 [back when 40k was more fun, but units were designed with a cookie-cutter...]. Then a few years later the Necrons showed up and were suddenly their ancient enemies.

Alternatively... the Necrons had the C'tan, Ĉonic Orbs & Abattoirs. I'd want a Phantom too. :eek:

In a balanced force the Revenant comes out on top every time.If we're comparing Titan v Titan then get that Fortuning Farseer out of here. Plasma Blastguns vs. Pulsars? My money's on the Warhound every time.

Rockerfella
01-08-2007, 18:55
So, an Eldar TITAN in 40k only has an armour value of......12?

Wonderful....

*sighs*

Slaaneshi Slave
01-08-2007, 19:46
If we're comparing Titan v Titan then get that Fortuning Farseer out of here. Plasma Blastguns vs. Pulsars? My money's on the Warhound every time.

Balanced force... I'm not comparing titan vs titan, I'm comparing their usefulness is an army.


So, an Eldar TITAN in 40k only has an armour value of......12?

Wonderful....

*sighs*

Yes, but is a fast skimmer with a 4+ invulnerable save, which can be made rerollable with Fortune.

CELS
01-08-2007, 20:47
It still doesn't make any sense, except for the sake of game balance. GW is just obsessed with making the Eldar fragile.

TrooperTino
01-08-2007, 21:08
I allways tend to favor humanitys great and supreme technology :D ... but Eldar titans just HAVE to be better...

I see it that way:
The Warhound marches on the battlefield. It's big, its mean, it's heavyly armored and the ground shakes when it walkes. It's superior to nearly every enemy force!
But the Eldar Titan comes in and jumps around the Warhound, like it could fly, running and jumping like it weights only a few tons.
The Warhound tries to hit the Revenant, and even iff it has enough firepower to blow the Revenant (or a small city) to tiny pieces... it simply don't hit it.
The fight is over after some time... with the Warhound shattered at the ground (not actually 'blown to pieces' but disabled and in urgent need for intensiv repairs). The war goes on without this Warhound, and even if it can be repaired and is not a total loss for the imperium... its disabled for several years.

With a good portion of luck the Warhound hits the Revenant and this would be MR eldar titans surly dead. But this would hardly happen.

The Warhound looks better with his game-stats... but the Eldar Titan would win 90% of the 1 on 1 fights.

But thats just my opinnion...

Dalenator
01-08-2007, 21:12
Here's a bit of info for why Imperials use Titans.


They are perhaps the greatest mechanical artefacts the human race has ever created. We have made more powerful things- the starships that can cross the void, negotiate warp space and reducecontinents to ashes with their ordnance- and we have made more technically sophisticated things - the latest generations of fluid-core autonomous cogitators. But we have made nothing as sublime as the Titan.

Slaaneshi Slave
01-08-2007, 21:15
If you're going to quote something, say where its from.

TrooperTino
01-08-2007, 21:43
Delenator says it the best way: Imperial titans are a symbol of supremacy like they're a weapon system. They represent the imperial way to deal with threats... don't move an inch and shoot everything in range.

Eldar Titans represent the Eldar way to fight... agility, speed and in some way foreseeing.

Rockerfella
01-08-2007, 21:50
It still doesn't make any sense, except for the sake of game balance. GW is just obsessed with making the Eldar fragile.

*Applauds*

Seconded!!

So.... there. ;)

Commissar_Sven
01-08-2007, 23:07
One more thing that I forgot to mention is that a Warhound can repair damage suffered on a 5+.

Also even if you are rolling like a god the Warhound will requier at least two rounds of shooting to kill, but the Revenant can be destroyed by one shot.


It still doesn't make any sense, except for the sake of game balance. GW is just obsessed with making the Eldar fragile.

What do you mean it doesen't make any sense, the Eldar are supposed to be fast hit hard and have a glass jaw. Having AV14 titans is not 'Eldary'.

Slaaneshi Slave
01-08-2007, 23:11
Yes it can, but in game terms the Revenant is still the most powerful Titan to currently have rules, for the reasons posted above.

Puffin Magician
01-08-2007, 23:28
A Farseer casting Fortune on a Revenant's holofield every turn does not make it the most powerful Titan. You talk as if you've never rolled a '3' in your life! :p Besides, you're going to regulate a Farseer to chase around your Titan all game in order to get the re-roll?

If you fail your save, the Rev disintegrates like wet newspaper pretty quickly. The PBG is sure to penetrate [not sure on all that SMF v Ap1 nonsense] and the TK rule delivers the real damage. The Revenant doesn't have an equal to that, so other than the Lance rule you're shooting back with mere Lascannons.

Slaaneshi Slave
01-08-2007, 23:29
You don't use a Revenant to shoot with, you use it to tank shock the enemy army off the table. Nothing can penetrate a moving fast skimmer, even if its AP1.

Puffin Magician
01-08-2007, 23:33
You don't use a Revenant to shoot with, you use it to tank shock the enemy army off the table.So now it's the most powerful Titan with 40k rules because it can Titan Tank Shock?! :p

Nothing can penetrate a moving fast skimmer, even if its AP1.Ah, I didn't think so but wasn't sure if they changed that again. Does the Revenant have rules saying it can fire more than 1 Pulsar if it moves over 12"? If not, then you're sacrificing 50% of your primary weaponry simply to run around. That's really not what Titans are about, even Eldar ones.

Slaaneshi Slave
01-08-2007, 23:35
It can tank shock most of an army on turn two, at -1 (or is it -2?) Leadership. Who cares if it can't fire a glorified lascannon? Titans are about decimating armies, nothing does that quite like making them all run off the table. A Revenants primary weapon is the tank shock.

Puffin Magician
01-08-2007, 23:44
I think Titan Tank Shock is only @ -1, unless they changed those rules again too.

Who cares if it can't fire a glorified lascannon? A Revenants primary weapon is the tank shock.OK, that actually did make me laugh out loud! I'm not disputing any of your points, only that we were discussing [or at least I thought we were] the Revenant vs. Warhound in some sort of showdown. If I'm standing still and shooting a pair of tank-sized weapons at you, and you're dancing around and kicking infantry with your Evangelion boots... what does that say?

Titans are about decimating armies, nothing does that quite like making them all run off the table.I wouldn't exactly consider shooing someone off my property to be "decimating" them... ;) The Warhound can TTS too!

Slaaneshi Slave
01-08-2007, 23:46
Sure it can, but not at 24" a turn. Chances are it will never make it at its slow pace. Warhounds are lumbering warmachines, right? None of my points were aimed at Titan vs Titan, but more of their usefulness in an actual army. Warhounds don't actually do anything which can't be done better by something much cheaper (and more survivable), but Revenants have a lot going for them.

Puffin Magician
02-08-2007, 00:02
Fair enough, I guess it's hard to discuss something if it's... not the same thing.

I think Titans, regardless of what race they are, all provide the same "usefulness" - which is providing heavy firepower. Of course other things can do that, but not in the same way. If I want a PBG then I have the option of a Stormblade, but then I'm not getting Turbolasers [or a VMB for real multipurpose work] or Void Shields. Similarly, you'd probably fare better with a Scorpion and Dark Reaper squad but then you lose maneuverability and your Titan Stomp.

Don't take this the wrong way, but you honestly believe what the Revenant contributes most to an Eldar army is repeatedly kicking enemy squads? Remember they get DoG attacks!

This might be the Imperial Armour talking, but surely blasting a squad of Terminators into atoms is way better than doing the two-step with a squad of Hormagaunts until they're nudged off a table edge?

And, forgetting that there was another topic...

Thunderbolts were armed differently in two incarnations of Epic. I don't think either had Lascannons, and earlier models simply had Storm Bolters and anti-personnel Rocket Pods so there's been a recent shift towards the AT role. Perhaps heresy-era Imperial Army Air Forces played a larger part supporting infantry while they still had Land Raiders to deal with armour?

The Chaos fighters from Forgeworld are manufactured within the Eye of Terror, and not based on Imperial models.

Lamhirh
02-08-2007, 07:29
Some people like to say Five Star Story's mecha would make good Eldar titans.

Actually a few would, compare:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b362/aimelek/meco.gif

Honestly though, a battle between an eldar titan and a souped-up orbital frame would be brief indeed. Jehuty (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/00/JehutyZOE2.jpg) could readily carve up most 40k titans; because we are talking about something that sports necron-style tech :eyebrows:. Don't even get me started on Murian Drones, 1st gen Tenchi Muyo Treeships etc. If you take almost anything in 40k chances are it's closest anime equivalent is ridiculously more powerful :rolleyes:. Otherwise, it wouldn't be anime ;)...

Hellebore
02-08-2007, 07:35
40k always makes up for it in quantity though...:p

Hellebore

Tehkonrad
02-08-2007, 07:59
I reckon that everything real has a anime doppelganger so that creepy people with it
example: stupid unfunny ninjas= NARUTO (formely known as LORDS OF BOREDOM)

anywho back on tpic i think that the best thing to use when fighting an eldar titan would be either
a) DA SUPA BIG GARGANT OF STOMPYNEZZ
b) A really big necron thing ,giant necron warrior,mega huge reaperbot, big stick for the revenant to trip over
c) ork mega-smasha gun hey revenant ever had a squiggoth teleported into your control room? wheres your holofields now you jumpy bastard (laughs so evilly that he summons a bloodthirster)

Slaaneshi Slave
02-08-2007, 09:26
a) DA SUPA BIG GARGANT OF STOMPYNEZZ

A Revenant is 755 points, a small Gargant is over 2,000 points...

Rockerfella
02-08-2007, 09:48
It still kinda bothers me that the Eldar titan (uber massive, exeptionally rare and powerful killing machine....*coughs*) has armour 12 and a 4+ save. Its utterly laughable!!

Whats its force projection like? What kind of power can it whallop at an enemy? Are its weapons any good, because seemingly, its armour and save arent. I get the impression its got a WS3 BS 3 and, wait... a strength of 5 too? *winces*

I sound so hurt by all this. I think I should leave now, i'm embarrassing myself.. *sniff sniff*

Cheers guys!

Sai-Lauren
02-08-2007, 09:55
A paradox created by retconning too much fluff?

You could be right there ;) - although the holofields vs Necron weapons actually kind of works, unlike most retconning.



The Eldar were given Titans so they had something to slap around Warlords in Epic: 40,000 [back when 40k was more fun, but units were designed with a cookie-cutter...]. Then a few years later the Necrons showed up and were suddenly their ancient enemies.

Well, if you want to get into game reasons, rather than background universe reasons... ;)
Yes, they got Phantoms (in WD for Adeptus Titanicus), so the Eldar would have a presence in the game, same reason Orks got Gargants.



Alternatively... the Necrons had the C'tan, Ĉonic Orbs & Abattoirs. I'd want a Phantom too. :eek:
If we're comparing Titan v Titan then get that Fortuning Farseer out of here. Plasma Blastguns vs. Pulsars? My money's on the Warhound every time.
Well, the Revenant is fast enough to get out of the Warhounds fire arcs, it then becomes a matter of whether the warhounds shields and armour can hold out while it tries to turn around and get a lock on it again.

You don't use an Eldar Titan as a gun platform like you can do with the Imperial or Ork ones.

Iracundus
02-08-2007, 10:02
Ironically the FW rules for the Sonic Lances seem to be designed with a view to encourage the Eldar Revenant to remain stationary (as the Sonic Lances get bonuses if the firer and/or target are stationary or immobile).

Wish they'd reintroduce the Phantom and its Heat Lance or the Warlock Titan and its Psy-Lance. Pity they were always overshadowed in past game editions by the Eldar Pulsar which was so good as to be a no brainer choice.

Carlos
02-08-2007, 10:44
In the game Eldar titans are 'fast' not 'agile'

Thats enough for me

Iracundus
02-08-2007, 10:50
In game rules still have the Revenant as faster and more agile than the Warhound. The Warhound can only turn at the end of moving while the Revenant is not restricted in turning. However, unfortunately the Revenant is still limited by the same restrictions on moving and firing (move 6" fire everything, move 12" fire one weapon, move >12 no firing) instead of a more lenient band of speeds so that it could actually take advantage of its speed more.

chris.seraphim
02-08-2007, 12:26
Humanity developed Titans as they were the best way to make war on the blasted landscape that was Mars pre-Unification. The size, destructive and psychological power of them was not lost on the Emperor who ordered them into mass production.

IMO - Eldar titans were developed along similar lines - as the best way to make large scale war over Barren landscapes - and like the Mon-Keigh they used their own body shape as a blueprint.

For that to follow human titans should follow human psychology and eldar ones, eladr psychology - hence the human once being designed to produce fear and attain domination through superior firepower, but the eldar one is designed to evade, strike, and confound.

As for the retconning, eldar titans would be useful at taking down Monolits (Monolii?) while evading the massed fire of the HUGE necron armies - also one pilot in a titan is better than a Striek Fiorce of Eldar at risk? It's also just one body to be Harvested, as opposed to maybe thousands.....

Tau on the other hand shouldnt have titans as they do not defend land / gain objectives etc. Human titans are gun platforms designed to obliterate formations, take and hold objectives. Eldar Titans are essentially for hunter/killer duty. Tau battle tactics define that such salient and powerful enemy units be destroyed by focussed ginfore from as far away, and as hidden a location as possible. Hence, Pathfinders in cover to 'light up' a titan, and Mantas either airstriking them, or some serious artilletry from MILERS AND MILES away taking out the titan. Imagine a scaled up Hammerhead with two titan sized railgun type things. That's a titan killer my baby! The tau battle ethos is against having such large 'tagert' units.

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as for the aircraft, I don't know - but half the AdMech did go with chaos at the Heresy and I'd imagine theyve got a few Daemon Forge World pumping out some messed up stuff!

Hellebore
02-08-2007, 12:36
I'm not sure the necron vs titan debate actually exists to be honest.

The information we have about the war in heaven suggests that the eldar hd nothing but spears and swords to fight the necrons - only the wraithconstructs and witchblades ostensibly created by Vaul were available for use.

Thus eldar titans would have had to have been created long after the necrons disappeared...

Hellebore

Jellicoe
02-08-2007, 13:05
In terms of aircraft both the Lightning and Thunderbolt are STC designs. The Lightning being a relatively recent rediscovery. Therefore both are preheresy but the lightning more so - ie not available for crusade forces

Luthien
02-08-2007, 13:07
The wraith constructs don't have to be limited to guard and lords, i'll bet there were a few Proto-titians in there as well

Hellebore
02-08-2007, 13:34
The wraith constructs don't have to be limited to guard and lords, i'll bet there were a few Proto-titians in there as well

Ya, but those would be completely controlled by a soul, not by a steersman in the head like the modern ones. Wraithtitans would be much slower than those piloted by the living (imagine a TITAN with wraithsight - what a gamble).

Hellebore

Rockerfella
02-08-2007, 13:42
Wraithtitans would be much slower than those piloted by the living (imagine a TITAN with wraithsight - what a gamble).

Hellebore

Guess they could somehow incorporate the Seer into the titan itself. Kinda like a steersman, without the helm, just with the Wraith vision thingy. ;)

I dunoo...

Puffin Magician
02-08-2007, 16:53
A small Gargant is over 2,000 points...Not exactly... the SupaStompa [DC4, Warhound-equiv] costs around 900pts depending on how you VDR it.
Whats its force projection like? I get the impression its got a WS3 BS 3 and, wait... a strength of 5 too? *winces*The Revenant is Bs4 like any Titan should be. But, it doesn't have Ws or S values [aside Titan Stomp attacks, which are generic] since it doesn't have any CCWs. Pulsars are pretty much what you're getting on the Scorpion and Vampire Hunter, but on those vehicles they're Twinlinked while the Revenant gets two separate weapons.

The Revenant is fast enough to get out of the Warhounds fire arcs...That's true or false depending on how close the Titans are to each other. If they're 6' apart, the Rev will likely stay within the 90° Forward Arc for a few turns. LoS is another matter, however.

Unfortunately the Revenant is still limited by the same restrictions on moving and firing (move 6" fire everything, move 12" fire one weapon, move >12 no firing)...Not quite. Titans have special rules that let them move further because their steps are much larger. 12" & fire all weapons, but I don't know if the Rev' can fire both Pulsars if it moves any faster than that.

Iracundus
02-08-2007, 20:32
Check again. I'm looking at the Titan rules right in front of me and it clearly and unambiguously states the Revenant may only fire all weapons if it moves 6" or less, just like the Warhound.

Puffin Magician
02-08-2007, 22:03
If that's Imperial Armour Update 2006, then they did change the rules again. Rather pathetic for Titans, gotta say. What about the "Leg Armour" rule?

Minister
02-08-2007, 22:10
I would suggest that the Epic rules are far more suited to titan comparisons. The Revenant has a small but notable speed advantage on the Warhound (35cm to 30cm), but the main advantage is in the all-around fire field rather than fixed forward and the jump pack rules (which are distinct from the skimmer rules, whereas the jump pack rules would not work for a vehicle in 40K). Unsurprisingly it replaces voids with holos and has lower armour, and is subject to the Eldar hit-and-run rules.

El_Machinae
02-08-2007, 23:49
I find the problem with using Epic for Fluff is that we don't really have enough frames-of-reference. In the end, I can imagine the difference between a Space Marine and a normal soldier when extrapolating other stats into fluff. But I find that the epic translation is harder.

Commissar_Sven
03-08-2007, 09:31
If that's Imperial Armour Update 2006, then they did change the rules again. Rather pathetic for Titans, gotta say. What about the "Leg Armour" rule?

It's still there.

Demonrich
03-08-2007, 13:15
Judging by the imperial armour update 2006 rules, the warhound has a massive disadvantage against the revenant. The warhound cannot target any model that is withink 12" of it. All the revenant has to do is run up to the warhound and it is safe from return fire. From then on it can just dance around within the 12" safe zone and shoot the warhound in the head :D