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kiron
01-08-2007, 03:30
1 mage-lvl 2, rod of power
1 mage-lvl 2
1 mage-lvl 2
5 knightly order-musician
5 knightly order-musician
5 knightly order-musician
1 steam tank

999 points

i'm having trouble thinking of an efficient counter for this list using an all comers list since this list is balanced in all 4 phases. cannons sniping doesn't really work since the unit is still 5+ and can look out sir. The knights are more like body guards.

Rabban
01-08-2007, 04:29
1 mage-lvl 2, rod of power
1 mage-lvl 2
1 mage-lvl 2
5 knightly order-musician
5 knightly order-musician
5 knightly order-musician
1 steam tank

999 points

i'm having trouble thinking of an efficient counter for this list using an all comers list since this list is balanced in all 4 phases. cannons sniping doesn't really work since the unit is still 5+ and can look out sir. The knights are more like body guards.

I wouldn't call it balanced in all 4 phases, the only phase it's strong in is the magic phase. I think psychology could cause it problems as it only has ld 8 (except the steam tank). A shooting army like dwarves or empire (or SAD skaven) could probably force a lot of panic tests on it. You only have to kill 2 knights to force a test, and then you can also cannon snipe the mages in the second turn of shooting.


Using the knights as bodyguards and avoiding combat, you will also struggle to inflict a large amount of damage if the opponent has magic defense.

kiron
01-08-2007, 04:37
and that's what the tank is for, no unit can stand a charge from it. And how many armies have a magic defense for 11 powerdice? 1 scroll and 5 dispel dice is already very strong.

Rabban
01-08-2007, 06:40
and that's what the tank is for, no unit can stand a charge from it. And how many armies have a magic defense for 11 powerdice? 1 scroll and 5 dispel dice is already very strong.

Yeah, the tanks not bad, but it's only one unit, and can easily be distracted. And if your opponent has a couple of war machines it likely to take a beating.

Not many armies can take 11 powerdice but what I said was

[QOUTE] you will also struggle to inflict a large amount of damage [/QUOTE].

4 or 5 dice plus a scroll or two could reduce the damage significantly. You are likely to have a spell or two you can't always use, and most opponents can take a few magic missiles and still be combat worthy. To win this list has to be able to score enough victory points by either killing the enemy, capturing standards or claiming table quarters. It's not exactly got enough units to be good a capturing quarters, so it need to rack up the kills.

It's a powerful list, but with a couple of decent war machines or a panic test or two failed, a lot of armies could take it out.

Neknoh
01-08-2007, 06:45
My army is balanced, it has magic (the afforementioned 14 PD in 2k), Shooting (53 Handgunners, 4 Cannons and a Hellblaster) and combat (the unit of 5 Knightly Order and the Stank)

anyone recognise this quote?

Festus
01-08-2007, 07:34
Yes, why did you have to remind me - Is he back again? *cowers in fear behind the cupboard*

Festus

Neknoh
01-08-2007, 09:53
Nae, don't think he's back, this list and it's creator's attitude just reminded me of it :D

Kiron, your problem will be Chaos, Vampire Counts, dwarves and Wood elves, all of these armies will dominate your army in the respective phase if kitted out properly.

For instance, Marauders to make up the bulk, two Exalted Champions of Khorne with nothing but Greatweapons and several units of Warhounds will proove difficult to beat.

A raising horde will outmagic, outnumber and outlast your army

Dwarves will blast you to sithereens and shut down your magic

Wood elves will only ever have problems with the Stank, the rest of the army will be sniped to pieces, precision strikes will take out several of your knights and wizards.

NO army is unbeatable, NO ARMY WHATSOEVER


EDIT: Just realised that a single challenge will ruin your day, a fast cav. champion armed with something to give him strength bonus of any sort will just tear your wizard appart, charging the knights into a fightier unit will also result in a challenge, ANY fighty character can take down an imperial wizard

forthegloryofkazadekrund
01-08-2007, 10:18
ng shamen x3 - lvl 2, 1 magic mushroom, 1 with pipes of doom (300)

25 ng - fc, 2 fanatics 145
25 ng - fc, 2 fanatics 145
25 ng - fc, 2 fanatics 145
25 ng - fc, 2 fanatics 145

2 chariots 120 to take out wizards


leaving 140 ish points

dont have book with me at the moment

possibly 2 dispel scrolls and replace i shamen with a boss on squig/w.w.h.w and bauble

Von Wibble
01-08-2007, 10:40
Those mages are all on foot looking at the list. So just shoot them or kill them with fast units.

Knights will not break any unit with full rank bonus and WS4 - they on average lose the combat in the round that they charge in.

That only leaves the steam tank.

So an empire army with something like

Pegasus Captain

L1 Wizard, 2x scroll (or Rod of Power)

2 x 20 swordsmen- each with free company detachments.

10 Crossbowmen

1 cannon

Pistoliers

Thats an army which certainly at worst has a fighting chance. And its balanced, with over 100pts left (another cannon, or some more crossbows)

EvC
01-08-2007, 11:18
2 x Necromancer Level 2 with magic goodies
Vampire Thrall with Great Weapon
~2 x 40 Zombies
~1 x 25 Skeletons

That's pretty much an allcomers army, just not one I field. The basic trick is get one of the Zombie units with the Thrall into combat with the Tank. Then he can grind to his heart's content but he's still facing 3S7 attacks from the Thrall that he can't target. Then the Knights and Wizards are free to target the Zombies but they won't be able to take them down quick enough.

sun tzu
01-08-2007, 11:19
1 mage-lvl 2, rod of power
1 mage-lvl 2
1 mage-lvl 2
5 knightly order-musician
5 knightly order-musician
5 knightly order-musician
1 steam tank

999 points

i'm having trouble thinking of an efficient counter for this list using an all comers list since this list is balanced in all 4 phases. cannons sniping doesn't really work since the unit is still 5+ and can look out sir. The knights are more like body guards.

Which army are you using? ? ?

Da Black Gobbo
01-08-2007, 14:14
Well my orcs will do it pretty good against this army:


Just have to keep large numbers and some armour-killing.


---Black orc Big boss: Iron gnashas, 2 handed weapon, heavy armour, shield.

--Night Goblin Shamman: lvl 2, staff of sneaky stealin'.

--Night Goblin Shamman: Lvl2, Nibbla's itty ring, dispell scroll.


----


--20 Orcs with shield choppa and full command.

--30 Night goblins with full command, netters and 2 fanatics.

--5 Wolf riders with spears and musician.

--5 Wolf riders with spears and musician.

--2 Spear Chukkas.

--1 Wolf Goblin chariot.

---Well having 5 dispell dices and 1 dispell scroll i hope to reduce the effects of the magic till my wolves kill the mages (moving 44cm and beeing fast calvary it will not be a matter, most of all when all their army is calvary and the wizzards go walking) the spear chukkas will try to kill the stank (not so difficult since i have +1 to hit only matter is 4+ to wound, in case of fighting against it my orc Big boss will take care of it or kill some knights.

This kind of army (the imperial one) try to be cheese but suck a lot, with some basic strategies is easily beated.

kiron
01-08-2007, 14:24
i'm sorry, it's just the terror and 1+ AS that annoys the crap out of me. i play dark elves, and my mages are freaking expensive.

Stella Cadente
01-08-2007, 14:25
Which army are you using? ? ?

I think the steam tank should give that away

Neknoh
01-08-2007, 14:47
Hrmm... you could've just asked for help for DE to beat it Kiron, much easier that way... hrmm...

Your Rare should go to 2 Reaper Bolt Thrower, for Core, Dark Rider units will do you very proud, a Sorceress and an Assassin that scouts with the ring of miscast should really do your day, kill one wiz and ring the other, leaving your Sorceress in a highly favourable position.

Now, you should still have a few points left for some form of protection of your Reapers, this, to me, sounds very much like a balanced 1k list, in higher points games, Assassin, unfortunately, goes out in favour of more useful characters, but at 1k, they can proove invaluable

kiron
01-08-2007, 15:57
Hrmm... you could've just asked for help for DE to beat it Kiron, much easier that way... hrmm...

Your Rare should go to 2 Reaper Bolt Thrower, for Core, Dark Rider units will do you very proud, a Sorceress and an Assassin that scouts with the ring of miscast should really do your day, kill one wiz and ring the other, leaving your Sorceress in a highly favourable position.

Now, you should still have a few points left for some form of protection of your Reapers, this, to me, sounds very much like a balanced 1k list, in higher points games, Assassin, unfortunately, goes out in favour of more useful characters, but at 1k, they can proove invaluable

unfortunately due to pathetic writing in the DE book the assassins does not have the option of taking magic items from the dark elf army section.

Neknoh
01-08-2007, 16:05
Actually, if your opponent claims that, then just take magical items from anywhere, it says "may take magical items (with the exception of armour) and gifts from the Temple of Khaine up to a total value of 50 points", that last bit was paraphrased, but the "May take magical items" part is to me and my gaming group meant to reffer to the Sorcerous Items list, if someone says "He can't take that" because of the wording, my reply is "So, the wording says hat he can take Magical Items up to fifty points but it doesn't specify a list, right?" "Right" "Hand me your book, I think I saw a nifty sword in there".

Ninsaneja
01-08-2007, 17:29
Actually, if your opponent claims that, then just take magical items from anywhere, it says "may take magical items (with the exception of armour) and gifts from the Temple of Khaine up to a total value of 50 points", that last bit was paraphrased, but the "May take magical items" part is to me and my gaming group meant to reffer to the Sorcerous Items list, if someone says "He can't take that" because of the wording, my reply is "So, the wording says hat he can take Magical Items up to fifty points but it doesn't specify a list, right?" "Right" "Hand me your book, I think I saw a nifty sword in there".

So because he has no list specified he should take from any list? While I am not going to make a judgment on whether or not he may choose from the Dark Elf list, I must say that is a spectacularly poor understanding of English as well as the rules to WHFB.

Do regular unit champions get to take an unlimited amount of magic items from anywhere because they have no points cost or items list specified? A lack of any specific permission is not a general permission, it is no permission at all. Not to mention that he DOES have a specific permission; it is just not the one you wish that he had. Ok, so I did make a judgment, it's just that no one agrees with me :)

Neknoh
01-08-2007, 18:08
Actually, the rules state what you CAN do, a unit champion cannot choose magic items, it is specified. All I'm saying is that if someone uses the argument that he may not use magical items from the magic items list in the Dark Elf Book, (indicated to be the intention by excluding armour from the magical items) I respond with a similar argument.

Malorian
01-08-2007, 18:21
Here's a bret list:

Paladin on horse, shield (76)

Paladin on horse *asb* (99)

6 KoTR, banner (160)

10 archers (60)
10 archers (60)
10 archers (60)
10 archers (60)
10 archers (60)
10 archers (60)
10 archers (60)
10 archers (60)
10 archers (60)
10 archers (60)
10 archers (60)

Total: 995

Just shoot the horses, thus taking out the mages, and ignore the tank.

Khorghan
01-08-2007, 18:22
Dwarves can easily beat it, thunderers will destroy a few of the knights and hopefully cause panic among them. if the stank is shot at a couple times with the cannon thatll do some damage, AND all that magic wont do well because theyre dwarves.

Da Black Gobbo
01-08-2007, 19:12
Dwarves with a couple of Bolt throwers and a master ingeneer will do it, get the rune of +1 to Str and that's it, then get a Runemaster with rune of spellbreaking and rune that gives your dispell pool an energy dice from the enemy's one, a Gyrocopter, some thunderers, some warriors with 2 handed weapons a few slayers and that's it.

nurgle_boy
01-08-2007, 19:54
Or, let me say this clearly, you simply refuse to play the beardy sod who comes up with uncharacterful army lists specifically designed to give gamers a hard time. play opponents with armies that have character, balence, and background.

As for the dark elf problem, wording should not be a trouble inless you or your opponents are trying to bend the rules. if in doubt, USE YOUR FREAKING INITIATIVE!

*rants* It anger me to see people write lists like this as it is wrong. yes, fantasy isd a competetive game, but exploiting the rules and purposefully createing the so called 'unbeatable' list is wrong.

also, there is no such thing as an unbeatable list, and anyone who tries to create such a thing will suffer the wrath of not just the dice gods, but also suffer the boots of non-powergamers.

*is angry* NB.

Malorian
01-08-2007, 20:00
There's always an easy solution to lists like this... play bigger games!

W0lf
01-08-2007, 21:23
yes. Just like 40 k 1000 pts is unbalnced.

1500-2000 for 40k
2000-3000 for fantasy

In my 5-6 years of experience

sun tzu
01-08-2007, 21:40
I think the steam tank should give that away
@ Stella Cadente
:confused: If you read the original post you will see that he is playing AGAINST the list he posted.(see below)


1 mage-lvl 2, rod of power
1 mage-lvl 2
1 mage-lvl 2
5 knightly order-musician
5 knightly order-musician
5 knightly order-musician
1 steam tank
999 points

i'm having trouble thinking of an efficient counter for this list using an all comers list since this list is balanced in all 4 phases. cannons sniping doesn't really work since the unit is still 5+ and can look out sir. The knights are more like body guards.

skavenguy13
01-08-2007, 22:23
OMG OMG OMG 11 PD???

But just one thing: what do you expect them to do? I mean, if they need LOS, all you need are some kind of shooters to take them down easily. And as for non-LOS spells, I don't think he'd get many that would be worth it anyway. For starters he has to roll which ones he gets!

Also, once you soften the knights up a bit, they're nothing to worry about. So you just need up to 9 knights in at most 2 turns. Well, a couple anti-save shots and they're gone.

You can then make a big party around the metal beast straight from the futuristic game those guys play on the table next to you.

The only real danger I'd see is if he decides to put ALL the kinghts close, with the tank. That's why you need to reduce them all to 2 per unit (or less) very fast. Because you don't want a combined charge of a tank and some knights.

If he deploys them in very different locations, just be sure to kill 1 or 2 per unit to be sure they're harmless.

CHOOBER SNIPES
02-08-2007, 01:21
do steam tanks need line of sight?
if they dont, take a buncha dark riders, cause they can run circles around the knights and tanks

g0ddy
02-08-2007, 06:28
Two HE mages with seer and channeler will happily cut through it like butter....

~g0ddy