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Malorian
01-08-2007, 17:54
I'm now looking to make an army that is as true to history as possible. Being welsh I thought it would be interesting to make a true army of the tmie of Llywelyn ap Gruffydd (last prince of wales)

I expected to had a lot to work from but it turns out that the archers were a big part of southern wales and the north mainly only had spearmen. In fact in his last battle he had 160 heavy horsemen and 7000 spearmen!

This means that I pretty much have to take all spearmen (or pikemen) and my only other troop is 2% heavy cav.

Do you think an army of pretty much all spearmen could win? And with army do you think it would be best to go with?

Empire: Cheap units, good items, detachments

Dogs of war: Tough pikemen

Brets: Cheap units, better armor per point, no worry if I lose a banner

Woodelves: Eternal guard are tough

Any thoughts?

Sanjuro
01-08-2007, 18:15
Dogs of war: Tough pikemen

NO. Just no.

Now that HE are getting always strikes first with their 3 rank spears and WS4 (for presumably about the same cost as before) I can see no valid reason of existance for Pikemen whatsoever. They are as laughably obsolete and overpriced as anything you might think of.

In fact, you would be better off with a HE spear horde than many of your other suggestions.

But really, best of all would be to switch to historicals if you are going to do a historical army. I'm just suggesting you should use the game for what the game is designed for, because that is what it does best.

Malorian
01-08-2007, 18:29
Well it doesn't hurt to try and fit it in and have some fun.

Glad to hear that pikemen are a cross-off because that would have been very expensive.

I'm still thinking that empire is the best way to go (humans and all) but the big thing is that although I'll have 250+ models, I can't think of a good way to use them and not just have them be smashed one at a time. I'ts no good having lots of models if most of them won't even see battle because everythings plugged up...

So any ideas how you would try and use the spearmen? Formations? Tactics?

Malorian
01-08-2007, 18:54
To put a list with the wanted tactic, here it is (for now):

Arch Lector w/ heavy armor, shield, barded horse, hammer of judgement

Warrior priest w/ heavy armor, shield, barded horse, dispell scroll

Warrior priest w/ heavy armor, shield, barded horse, dispell scroll

Captain w/ full plate, barded horse and griffin banner

35 Spearmen w/ shields, FC
->Detachment 1: 15 Spearmen
->Detachment 1: 15 Spearmen

30 Spearmen w/ shields, FC
->Detachment 1: 15 Spearmen
->Detachment 1: 15 Spearmen

30 Spearmen w/ shields, FC
->Detachment 1: 15 Spearmen
->Detachment 1: 15 Spearmen

30 Spearmen w/ shields, FC
->Detachment 1: 15 Spearmen
->Detachment 1: 15 Spearmen

Total: 1992

MrTrath
02-08-2007, 00:03
As a veteran of 40k, but a newbie to Warhammer Fantasy, feel free to ignore this post. However, if you wish to go any higher (Say, 2500-3000 points), then you should include some cavalrymen, maybe Knightly Orders. If it fits as "Heavy Horsemen," use it to avoid getting flanked. Spearmen are good... the bonus of fighting in two ranks is worth the low points cost for a large unit.

Chaplain Severus
02-08-2007, 00:50
I would imagine with so many large blocks of infantry (and equally large detachments) you will find your spearmen getting in the way of eachother. With low leadership, and poor armor this list will be easily countered once an opponent knows what's coming. (I'd use flame cannons and organ guns against it) Panic tests will probably send this unit fleeing off the board. . .

If you want to field the army, feel free, you might enjoy it. But don't expect to dominate with it.

Interrogator-Chaplain Severus

warlord hack'a
02-08-2007, 07:38
how about making the detachments swordsmen. Yes I know, your historical counterpart had 7000 spearmen but are you trying to tell me these guys did not have a sword as back up? So instead of bringing their spears your swordsmen simply left them home for today and pulled out their trusted sword and shield.

and as for high elves always striking first with 3 ranks of spears, ouch! that's a DO NOT FRONTALLY CHARGE sign if ever there was one, unless you have 1+ armour save of course..

Malorian
02-08-2007, 10:31
Do you think that would make it competitive then? I could also with that logic use free company as a missile shield...

ReveredChaplainDrake
02-08-2007, 12:57
I'm now looking to make an army that is as true to history as possible. Being welsh I thought it would be interesting to make a true army of the tmie of Llywelyn ap Gruffydd (last prince of wales)

I expected to had a lot to work from but it turns out that the archers were a big part of southern wales and the north mainly only had spearmen. In fact in his last battle he had 160 heavy horsemen and 7000 spearmen!

This means that I pretty much have to take all spearmen (or pikemen) and my only other troop is 2% heavy cav.

Do you think an army of pretty much all spearmen could win? And with army do you think it would be best to go with?

Empire: Cheap units, good items, detachments

Dogs of war: Tough pikemen

Brets: Cheap units, better armor per point, no worry if I lose a banner

Woodelves: Eternal guard are tough

Any thoughts?

It appears that somebody besides me took 300 to heart.

Even though Saurus w/ Spears got a bit nerfed with Predatory Fighters and a points increase over HW+S, their low move, Chaos-esque Toughness and saves in CC, Cold-blooded holding tolerance, and sheer volume of str4 attacks makes them incredibly good spear fighters. Imagine how broken they must've been without Pred Fighters... 3 str4 attacks per file is pretty prickly prospect to charge, and if you're taking a charge with these Saurus, you're going last anyway. (Use the Spawning of Quetzl to hold better.) A lot like the new High Elves, only you're trading speed and skill for power and resilience. Just don't get hit with Chariots, Dragons, or Chosen Knights. Fortunately, Lizards have an incredibly versatile arsenal to take care of especially dangerous threats, such as those listed above.

warlord hack'a
02-08-2007, 22:46
well it will not make it competitive, but it will make it more competitive than detachments of spearmen.. If you go historic, you have to stick to empire or brets, simply because the number of elves, skaven or saurus warriors in the time of the last prince of wales were rather low..

Do get some more knights, if you take your 2% that means you can afford one unit of knights and still be accurate. Who knows, it might just work but yes it will be very easy to think of more competitive empire army builds, but your main goal is to be historically accurate right?

Sanjuro
02-08-2007, 23:02
Do you think that would make it competitive then?

Let's get this straight - if you are going to make an army with those kinds of self-imposed limitations, it is never going to be competitive, not in the sense that it has an equal chance against balanced armies. Your army is basically a horde without all the elements that make a horde competitive.

You might make a fun army, but it isn't going to be competitive. That's just something you have to learn to expect - and to be honest, looking at that list, I have a hard time coming up with any normal list that would have trouble beating it. It is just fundamentally weak - due to the fact that you are choosing to disregard the fundamentals and basics of Warhammer by handicapping yourself to the extreme.

This sort of project you are talking about practically means this: you have to buy, assemble and paint a TON of models - about 200. This is extremely expensive and time-consuming - made much more so because you can apparently no longer buy a box of dedicated close combat infantry for Empire - I think the box is split 10/10 between close combat and missile infantry nowadays. And when you have completed this daunting task, you have a one-dimensional army that you will almost never win battles with.

Now bear in mind I'm not just talking out of my ass here. On a map with any semblance of terrain (perhaps 2 medium sized pieces), your army will suffer in the extreme from having to move up through chokepoints. Basically you will have to advance in column, and you have absolutely no means of projecting your power (which is a huge part of the game), which leaves you completely at the mercy of your opponent. And seeing as how your army is extremely slow, you won't even be able to bring your numbers to bear against your opponents in an attempt to overwhelm them - any army with mobility can freely choose which part of your army they want to engage and you can do nothing to stop this. If you are facing a stationary army with shooting, you have a LONG death march ahead of you.

My point here is that while the theme of your army may make you excited and even enthusiastic, that joy will be soured rather quickly when you are playing with the list. You will not feel like a participant of the game - you will feel like a victim, and that's not fun at all. And thus the entire project is spoiled - which is a crying shame, for if you had invested the same time and energy (and money) into creating a Historicals army, you would have a fine, functioning army that could hold its own and participate in the battle on equal terms, and most importantly - better do justice to the theme of the army.

I am telling you now mate, this is a bad, bad idea. In theory it might look fine, but in practice it is a, excercise in futility - a Pyrrhic victory. Sure, at the end you will possess that spearmen army with the Welsh theme that you always imagined - but at what cost?

sun tzu
03-08-2007, 00:12
:confused:I didn't know that warrior priests could use dispel scrolls:eyebrows:

If my memory serves me right, Llywelyn ap Gruffydd's army was first shaken with bow fire and broken by a heavy cavalry charge to the flank of hs army.
He was killed as he fled the field.:(

I would say that a VERY pessant heavy Bretonnian army would be the best way to give you an army that closely matches the abilitys of the historical one.

chivalrous
03-08-2007, 02:28
:confused:I didn't know that warrior priests could use dispel scrolls:eyebrows:

They can't.

Only Wizards can use arcane items and Warrior Priests aren't wizards.

sun tzu
03-08-2007, 04:48
To put a list with the wanted tactic, here it is (for now):

Arch Lector w/ heavy armor, shield, barded horse, hammer of judgement

Warrior priest w/ heavy armor, shield, barded horse, dispell scroll

Warrior priest w/ heavy armor, shield, barded horse, dispell scroll

Captain w/ full plate, barded horse and griffin banner

35 Spearmen w/ shields, FC
->Detachment 1: 15 Spearmen
->Detachment 1: 15 Spearmen

30 Spearmen w/ shields, FC
->Detachment 1: 15 Spearmen
->Detachment 1: 15 Spearmen

30 Spearmen w/ shields, FC
->Detachment 1: 15 Spearmen
->Detachment 1: 15 Spearmen

30 Spearmen w/ shields, FC
->Detachment 1: 15 Spearmen
->Detachment 1: 15 Spearmen

Total: 1992


:confused:I didn't know that warrior priests could use dispel scrolls:eyebrows:


They can't.

Only Wizards can use arcane items and Warrior Priests aren't wizards.

Thats what i thought but with the new "Full of :cheese:" empire book you can be sure of anything these days:D

Von Wibble
03-08-2007, 11:45
I can't remember but think Savage Orcs can have spears (certainly could before the new book). That is not a refection on the welsh at all!

Tomnb Kings could also be a valid choice as could dark elves.

But fitting in with the celtic theme the most is wood elves. For 2000 pts you could have (roughly)

Highborn, Noble, 2 x Spellsinger (call it 650)

3 x eternal guard (850ish)

Leaving 500 pts - I would have glade riders, archers and 2 x wardancers to finish. Possibly change for an eagle too!

Kerill
06-08-2007, 09:47
HE getting first strike doesn't suddenly make the pikemen crap- they can hold their own at present and S4 against cavalry and 4 ranks is still ok.

Bretonnians might be able to do this list better (as someone said) the knights of the realm can be llywelyns bodyguard.

A list of 200 spearmen will be shot to pieces, flanked and destroyed. Even if you go empire, wales had decent archers, take some! Or use crossbowmen as "longbowmen" for a bit of shootyness. Equally he may have had spearmen but how many were spearmen as in trained with the spear and how many were peasants with a spear/pitchfork. If the latter then you can add free company into the detachment mix as well. You could have dtachments of archers too.

Corrupt
06-08-2007, 11:08
At 2kpts for HE you'd have nothing like a spear horde (20 Spears+Command=250pts)

Empire or HE after the updates Id reccomend

Personally I dont see why this list cant be a balanced competetive list. Most Empire armies have a solid infantry core. That could easily be mostly spears. A Knightly Order or two as your can and converted "crossbow" and huntsmen make up your ranged support
Some free coy detatchments of peasents.

Now we just need an artillary excuse...

Sanjuro
06-08-2007, 11:34
Personally I dont see why this list cant be a balanced competetive list. Most Empire armies have a solid infantry core. That could easily be mostly spears. A Knightly Order or two as your can and converted "crossbow" and huntsmen make up your ranged support
Some free coy detatchments of peasents.

Now we just need an artillary excuse...

Well that isn't the list that was posted, is it? The list posted was spearmen and more spearmen. I was talking about the list that was actually posted here.

If you are going to add knights, crossbows, skirmishers, free company and artillery - that makes it a whole other list, doesn't it?

Corrupt
06-08-2007, 11:47
Well that isn't the list that was posted, is it? The list posted was spearmen and more spearmen. I was talking about the list that was actually posted here.

If you are going to add knights, crossbows, skirmishers, free company and artillery - that makes it a whole other list, doesn't it?

He wants spears heavy not pure spears...
So somtheing like 3x 25 Spears +Spears Detatchments
2x 6 Knights
2x10 Crossbows
Heroes

nurgle_boy
06-08-2007, 12:07
I personaly would say brettonians, except for the fact that peasent make use of shields, whereas the welsh made significantly less use of them. if there was a way to represent a buckler, that would be better...

The heavy cavalry used will not have had barding, so really mounted yeomen will do to represent them (armour too, was a luxury back in those times. footmen wore rags, royalty had chainmail).

of course the light armour in the peasent units could easily be represented by a smattering of armoured models throughout the unit.

The Welsh longbowmen should play a big part, and with one of the tactics of the welsh army (hide behind that hedgerow boy-o's!), you could easily represent the stakes of brett archers.

Characters are easy to do, as brett characters are not overly powerful in the way of statlines, but avoid using magic items. A damsel with a scroll or two could easily represent a religious leader (which were a surprisingly common sight on the battlefield), avoiding the casting of magic, but keeping the slight competetivity.

if you need to pack a punch consider using knights errent, or knights of the realm to represent french mercenary stippendari (sp).

or, if you want to be really historical, play warhamer ancients, or even use the welsh army list from the shieldwall supplement.

hope that helps, NB

Finnigan2004
06-08-2007, 14:18
I expected to had a lot to work from but it turns out that the archers were a big part of southern wales and the north mainly only had spearmen. In fact in his last battle he had 160 heavy horsemen and 7000 spearmen!

This means that I pretty much have to take all spearmen (or pikemen) and my only other troop is 2% heavy cav.

Do you think an army of pretty much all spearmen could win? And with army do you think it would be best to go with?


Any thoughts?


Sorry Corrupt, but I think that he said pretty much all spearmen (he said maybe "2% heavy cavalry" and "pretty much all spearmen or pikemen". Your list is certainly more effective, but not what he asked for.

Corrupt
06-08-2007, 22:13
Fairy nuff, but id consider it(within warhammers limits) a fairly accurate reproduction with 3-4 solid spear units with spear detatchments and 2 small cav units

Malorian
07-08-2007, 00:17
The Welsh longbowmen should play a big part, and with one of the tactics of the welsh army (hide behind that hedgerow boy-o's!), you could easily represent the stakes of brett archers.


turns out that they didn't have a lot of long bowmen. that was the south welsh who were defeated forst and used aganist the northern welsh.

But really guys this is enough. I admit the all spearmen can't win unless the enemy is a fool.

Rhamag
07-08-2007, 00:24
I second the Tomb King vote, just because it's more unusual than most. Also, you have a core of troops that will never run away and are scary. Plus, their higher points cost vs. Empire/Brets means you'll have less to buy/build/paint. They can do warmachines, medium cavalry and spearmen and archers with no trouble at all.

On the other hand, they are all dead (which the Welsh weren't), but we don't live in a perfect world!

Sanjuro
08-08-2007, 19:40
Sorry Corrupt, but I think that he said pretty much all spearmen (he said maybe "2% heavy cavalry" and "pretty much all spearmen or pikemen". Your list is certainly more effective, but not what he asked for.

Also, a list by Malorian is actually posted in this thread. It consisted of:

Spearmen.

Mounted characters.

T10
08-08-2007, 20:18
It is possible to win with just spearmen. It will be difficult, but it can be done. You just need the right mix of skill, experience, tactics, luck and alcohol - an inebriated opponent sure helps a lot!

With my powers of foresight I predict that most of the game will be spent shoveling dead men off the battlefield and crying "RALLY, for the love of God! RALLY!"

In cymraeg.

-T10