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kiron
01-08-2007, 21:41
just because the DE assassin does not seem to do what nobles can also do and cost a million more points i decided to come up with a few ideas.

same abilities as before
+1 attack basic profile
poison by default
armor piercing by default
Have the high elves 'strike' first rule since these guys are definitely better fighters.
-1 to hit from shooting and close combat
Give them eternal hatred
Every wound causes d3 wounds

Still no idea what to do with the assassins ridiculously high BS. Also make sure GW actually write down that they can take items from the dark elf item section so there are no more controvercies.

gorenut
01-08-2007, 21:42
I can see having 1 or 2 of those abilities, but definitely not all. I think the assassin should also have some potent, short-ranged projectile.

Glorfindel
01-08-2007, 21:49
Well some of you ideas are good like poison by default and strike first, perhaps an additional attack as wel but the armor piercing, eternal hatred, and d3 wounds are over the top I think. d3 wound is too darn good and eternal hatred ... They are coldblooded killers, not emotional psychopaths. The armor piercing isn't really that easy to explain either I think, I mean his weapons are not bullets or anything, no I think those few things combined with the other artifacts and poisons could make him an excellent killer.

With the high bs it's simple: equip him with a repeater bolt pistol.

theunwantedbeing
01-08-2007, 22:00
Poison and an additional hand weapon as standard.
Repeatercrossbow pistol(or 2) option.
Killing blow!(forgot to put this in for some bizarre reason....he's an asssasin,having killing blow is a given really)

Thats all he really needs over what he currently has.

Eldarion
01-08-2007, 22:14
Poison and an additional hand weapon as standard.
Repeatercrossbow pistol(or 2) option.

Thats all he really needs over what he currently has.

Maybe not repeater crossbow, somthing unique. Like Ninja stars. :evilgrin:

kyussinchains
01-08-2007, 22:19
reduce the cost!

I think that borrowing a little from 40k assassins would be a good idea, a short range, nasty missile weapon, or increased combat power

personally I'd like to see them with killing blow as standard, as well as a 5+ dodge/ward save, I'm sure that's just wishful thinking though....

I remember back in the day when you could give them a great weapon and the potion of battle....

always striking first (assuming hidden in a unit) with S6, doing D3 wounds, and an extra +D6 attacks.... many a dwarf, elf or orc lord has fallen to that monster :D

Peril
01-08-2007, 22:26
If you want him to actually be able to assassinate anything other than 2 wound wizards before getting run down:

WS 9
A 3
I 9

Hit and Run
Killing Blow

Temple of Khaine Abilities/Items (Assassin can only use this list for items, and can take up to 75 pts.):

Manbane (Poison, +1 Str, D3 Wounds, Ranged and Close Combat) - 75 pts.
Dance of Death (5+ Killing Blow) - 25 pts.
Shadow - Deploy as Scout - 25 pts.

This is just off the top of my head. He is still only M5 and T3 with little or no protection other than Hit and Run. He shouldn't be a troop killer.

athamas
01-08-2007, 22:33
the problem then becomes assasins are just too good at killing things...

yes they should be powerfull, but no 'super assassins' able to take down a tooled up chaos lord as if he was a goblin...

Arnizipal
01-08-2007, 22:43
same abilities as before
+1 attack basic profile
poison by default
armor piercing by default
Have the high elves 'strike' first rule since these guys are definitely better fighters.
-1 to hit from shooting and close combat
Give them eternal hatred
Every wound causes d3 wounds

He can already do all of that except the armour piercing and the -1 to hit.

Additional hand weapon/Rune of Khaine
Temple of Khaine poison
Assassins strike first on the tunr they're revealed and later on I10
The have WS9 or 10 so most normal (non-character) things hit them on 5's
Hatred (for High Elves only)
Killing Blow upgrade from Temple of Khaine.

I agree they need a little boost though. Personally I'd go for killing blow and access to a crossbow. Possibly give him the ability to land a Killing Blow with the crossbow.

So if you want him to take out characters, give him an extra handweapon (4 attacks with killing blow), a crossbow (with killing blow) and the Black Amulet.

pcgamer72
01-08-2007, 23:24
Don't assassins already have Killing Blow? If they do, I don't think Poison is a great idea, because it takes away chances for that KB, which is much better against characters.

chivalrous
01-08-2007, 23:44
just because the DE assassin does not seem to do what nobles can also do and cost a million more points i decided to come up with a few ideas.

same abilities as before
+1 attack basic profile
I think 2 attacks and an extra hand weapon standard is enough. He is still a Hero level character.



poison by default
armour piercing by default
Poison should be a given. Armour piercing is something I hadn't thought about. It's been suggested as an army wide rule in other discussions and I've not been convinced but does seem apt for the Assassin.


Have the high elves 'strike' first rule since these guys are definitely better fighters.
I think their Hidden rule and having I10 already covers this. Don't get excited or over supportive of the High elves Strike First rule is yet, s far there are only unconfirmed and speculative rumours about it.


-1 to hit from shooting and close combat
They'll already have -1 for lone models and the rule won't make any difference if they're in a unit. Maybe -1 to Hit on combat but I'd likely insist that it's that or a Ward (Dodge) Save, we did see that Eltharion was a match for Shadowblade, so an assassin is blow for blow as good as a master swordsman.


Give them eternal hatred No, not at all. That would mean they'd always have to pursue a fleeing enemy and if the nit is better off staying still, then he'd be fleeing out of the unit alone and left a sitting duck.


Every wound causes d3 wounds
Seems a little bit too much, especially with poison as well. I'd be happy to keep Killing Blow.


Still no idea what to do with the assassins ridiculously high BS. Also make sure GW actually write down that they can take items from the dark elf item section so there are no more controversies.

I don't see the need for an assassin to have a crossbow it just seems too bulky for the assassin. His strength is hiding in a unit and getting first strike when he's revealed. Maybe poisoned darts / throwing knives; The repeated crossbow pistol isn't a bad idea.

Keep the Temple of Khaine rules and keep the 50pt limit

The Anarchist
01-08-2007, 23:54
i have to admit im not big on the Dark Elves, however why not do something like rendng attacks as from 40K?
also it seems to me posion shouldn't be extra for an assasin, it would be as nomal for him as a rune for a dawrf rune lord, so give it to them as standard. i don't ealy know about the rest, though remember not to male him a hero character that can carve apart a tooled up lord like butter!

just my two cents

chivalrous
02-08-2007, 00:05
i have to admit im not big on the Dark Elves, however why not do something like rendng attacks as from 40K?

It's called Killing Blow :)


i don't ealy know about the rest, though remember not to male him a hero character that can carve apart a tooled up lord like butter!

Unless it costs the same or more as a that tooled up Lord. The trouble right now is that the Assassin costs the same as a Dark Elf Lord but where the Lord can up his armour save to 2+, the Assassin is restricted to S4 unless he spends points on a magic sword which will only take him up to S5 and restrict him to 3 attacks.

Bretonnian Lord
02-08-2007, 00:09
I think it would probably easiest just to decrease the cost of an Assassin, to say maybe 85 pts? 90 pts?

Btw, in their entry when it says "Assassins may take magical items or abilities from the Temple of Khaine, do they mean "Anything from the Temple of Khaine but NOT from the normal magic items list?" or do they mean "Magic items list AND Temple of Khaine?" Because if the latter is true, there are some pretty potent combos for Assassins already (Even thought I'm pretty sure the first choice is correct).

chivalrous
02-08-2007, 00:14
I think it would probably easiest just to decrease the cost of an Assassin, to say maybe 85 pts? 90 pts?
Maybe but that still won't make them any more attractive to players.


Btw, in their entry when it says "Assassins may take magical items or abilities from the Temple of Khaine, do they mean "Anything from the Temple of Khaine but NOT from the normal magic items list?" or do they mean "Magic items list AND Temple of Khaine?" Because if the latter is true, there are some pretty potent combos for Assassins already (Even thought I'm pretty sure the first choice is correct).

The former, "Magic items list AND Temple of Khaine". They can mix and match from both lists. Remember, the wording for a Lord says They may take items from the common or Dark Elf items lists and we all interpret that to mean they can mix common with Dark Elf only items.
Which combinations were you thinking about? Remember they can't take magic armour and if they take a magic weapon, they're restricted to 3 attacks. Also none of the Poisons can be used on a magic weapon.

Makaber
02-08-2007, 00:23
Problem with the assassin isn't what he does, but how much you pay for it. They're good in the way they can kill any character with a little luck before said character gets to attack the unit, but they're too unreliable to justify the tremendeous cost. Even worse, it's a lot of points for a T3, W2, no save model.

In my book, the way to fix assassins would be to decrease their potency by a lot, making them slightly better than a beastmaster statwise, giving them Killing Blow as standard, and allowing you to purchase several per hero choice. Effectively turning the Assassin into more of a unit upgrade, sort of like a fanatic.

chivalrous
02-08-2007, 00:35
Problem with the assassin isn't what he does, but how much you pay for it. They're good in the way they can kill any character with a little luck before said character gets to attack the unit, but they're too unreliable to justify the tremendous cost.
They need an awful lot of luck to kill a character. Especially as most Lord characters have T4 an armour save of 3+(+), a ward save and 3 wounds; Heroes have a 3+(+) save, maybe a ward save and 2 wounds, whereas Assassins normally have S4 and 3 attacks (I don't know anyone who doesn't take an extra Hand weapon). With their current stats, Assassins are hitting on 3+, wounding on a 4+. With attacks that's 1.3 wounds per turn on average, before the characters roll to save, which if 4+ (after modifiers) is only a 66% chance of causing a single wound (0.66 wounds per turn on average). (unless of course you're using Manbane, in which case for a T4 3+Sv model you'll cause 1.19 wounds per turn on average)
I don't propose Assassins ever ignore armour but they need a small tweak on the attack. Armour piercing won't make a game breaking difference, but it gives them a slightly better chance of getting that 1 wound through their opponents armour.


it's a lot of points for a T3, W2, no save model.
I'm content with T3 W2, it's an Elf and a Hero choice afterall.



In my book, the way to fix assassins would be to decrease their potency by a lot, making them slightly better than a beastmaster statwise, giving them Killing Blow as standard, and allowing you to purchase several per hero choice. Effectively turning the Assassin into more of a unit upgrade, sort of like a fanatic.

I disagree, they should be master swordsmen, as their background suggests and their current stats show this.
Keep the cost as is, keep them one per hero choice but tweak their rules a little. I don't want uber character killers any more than you do but I would like to level the field between them and comparatively priced characters.
What you're suggesting is turning them into copies of Skaven Assassins.

Ganymede
02-08-2007, 00:50
Here is my idea as to how to fix the Assassin.

First off, allow the assassin to purchase a repeater crossbow. This piece of equipment would be very useful, especially with the more lethal poisons applied to the bolts.

Seocndly, allow the assassin to jump out of an eligible unit at the beginning of any close combat phase. That way your assassin can always be in an advantageous position... at least until he is revealed.

Arnizipal
02-08-2007, 01:00
Seocndly, allow the assassin to jump out of an eligible unit at the beginning of any close combat phase. That way your assassin can always be in an advantageous position... at least until he is revealed.
Isn't that how it works now? Or do you mean you can choose which unit he's in on the spot?

chivalrous
02-08-2007, 01:01
First off, allow the assassin to purchase a repeater crossbow. This piece of equipment would be very useful, especially with the more lethal poisons applied to the bolts. I can see how that might be useful, but only once the Assassin has been revealed. Fair enough if he's been set up as a scout or is visible from the beginning of the game.


Seocndly, allow the assassin to jump out of an eligible unit at the beginning of any close combat phase. That way your assassin can always be in an advantageous position... at least until he is revealed.
I'm not sure I follow you. Doesn't the hidden rule already cover that? Do you mean that the Assassin gets the Strike first bonus in all combat rounds? Or do you mean that the assassin may leave the unit at the beginning of a combat round. ? Or do you mean that you don't need to pick which unit the Assassin is hidden in at the start of the game?

Ganymede
02-08-2007, 01:42
I wasn't too clear in my initial post...


The current hiddel rule allows an assassin to be secretly deployed within one eligible unit, and can then be revealed as the player chooses.

With my rule, there is no need to secretly deploy the assassin; you simply decide where you want your assassin to appear on the spot. Of course, he can only appear in a unit that the assassin could normally be in, like corsairs, warriors, or witch elves.

basically, instead of choosing one unit at the beginning of the game, you choose the unit right when you want him to appear. It makes the assassin far sneakier and removes the silly procedure of writing a secret location on a napkin pre-game.

The SkaerKrow
02-08-2007, 02:03
Give him Killing Blow in Challenges, and the ability to force a unit to accept the challenge if the Assassin passes an Initiative Check (meaning that he essentially has a 5 in 6 chance of getting the challenge that he wants).

sulla
02-08-2007, 06:45
All he needs is a points reduction to about 105, killing blow included in his abilities for free and access to rxb and rxb pistol IMO.

He doesn't need to be particularly survivable or a unit breaker or a game wrecker who can teleport to any spot like shadowblade. He just need to be better at his core role; popping out of units and killing opposing heroes half the time.

chivalrous
02-08-2007, 08:12
Looking over the Temple of Khaine last night, I'd be happy enough if the only change to assassins was that Dance of Death and Touch of Death were reduced to 25 points and made Assassin only. It's likely, though, that this would make those options 'no brainers'.
I'm sure that right now they're only 30 points to prevent Hags from taking them.

snurl
02-08-2007, 08:20
I wasn't too clear in my initial post...


The current hiddel rule allows an assassin to be secretly deployed within one eligible unit, and can then be revealed as the player chooses.

With my rule, there is no need to secretly deploy the assassin; you simply decide where you want your assassin to appear on the spot. Of course, he can only appear in a unit that the assassin could normally be in, like corsairs, warriors, or witch elves.

basically, instead of choosing one unit at the beginning of the game, you choose the unit right when you want him to appear. It makes the assassin far sneakier and removes the silly procedure of writing a secret location on a napkin pre-game.

The assasin has to be located somewhere, he cant just wink into existance where you want him when you need him. The hidden rule hides his location from your opponent, but having him be where you want when you want is more for the "rules you ignore" thread.
On the other hand, your take on the hidden rule would be great if my rune of concealment worked like that. Imagine an organ gun where you need it, when you need it. I like it.

Count Zero
02-08-2007, 10:09
the current assasin works as a great R&F killer, but it has been messed up in the current rules. i agree KB should come as standard, possibly even a 5+KB. 2 posioned hand weapons as well (plus an extra rule that means you roll for KB chance on poisoned hits)

am not too bothered about ranged firepower, you want this guy in combat, so if he is not he would probably be marching to get there anyway.

i agree about the 30 pt Kb and wardsave thing. very annyoing.

Ganymede
02-08-2007, 13:12
The assasin has to be located somewhere, he cant just wink into existance where you want him when you need him. The hidden rule hides his location from your opponent, but having him be where you want when you want is more for the "rules you ignore" thread.
On the other hand, your take on the hidden rule would be great if my rune of concealment worked like that. Imagine an organ gun where you need it, when you need it. I like it.


I think you're grossly misinterpreting what I am trying to accomplish with my altered rules.

Imagine them as being fundamentally similar to the tunneling rules employed gutter runners, or the ambushing/forward advance/stealthy positioning deployment rules enjoyed by Gors, miners, and the like. With these rules, as well as my rule, one type of unit is given the ability to be deployed to a location of advantage later in the game. A unit of gors can use their ability to spring traps to appear on a vital table edge, and an assassin can use his stealthy ways in order to truly surprise an opponent.

theunwantedbeing
02-08-2007, 13:33
Having him appear randomly would definitely require a test of some sort.
The problem being that he'll usually pass any test he's likely to be forced to take if its based on his stats.
Inituitve test or leadership test seems the only realy tests that would make sense for him to take to be revealed.
And he passes those easily.....

Maybe make it a 3+ roll,if he fails it he simply isnt in that unit and cannot try to appear within that unit during the game,and is stuck having to reveal himself in a different unit.

maze ironheart
02-08-2007, 13:42
They could give the rule skaven's clan eshin have when they kill a hero or lord or the general you get a 100 extra victory points to your victory totol that would go with the role of the assasin not fighting other worrior's but taking out the hero's and leaders of the army.Also they should do it that he get's the killing blow on a roll of a 5 or a 6 and I aggree with him striking first because he dose not have armour slowing him down.

SV_Harlequin
02-08-2007, 13:44
Simple solution would be:
Poison as standard for free
abiltity to take ranged weapon of some sort
points cost reduction
up his allowance from 50pts to 75pts.

King Thurgun
02-08-2007, 14:16
For the Assassin's BS 10? Sniper Crossbow

30" Range, Move-or-Fire
Str 3, Killing Blow (Headshot!)

Can pick out champions and characters in the same way a Hochland Longrifle can. A one in six chance of giving the enemy general an inglorious death isn't a very big chance, but still, you might see more High Elf Princes coming into battle with their helmets on instead of their hair all a-flowing...

kiron
02-08-2007, 14:39
For the Assassin's BS 10? Sniper Crossbow

30" Range, Move-or-Fire
Str 3, Killing Blow (Headshot!)

Can pick out champions and characters in the same way a Hochland Longrifle can. A one in six chance of giving the enemy general an inglorious death isn't a very big chance, but still, you might see more High Elf Princes coming into battle with their helmets on instead of their hair all a-flowing...

and if someone took 3 assassins? 50% of killing the general 1st turn! sounds a little broken....

Count Zero
02-08-2007, 15:32
makes assasins 0-1. or 0-2 as i dont think thye are all that rare, they keep popping up in the malus books.

3 assaissns would most likey cost more than the general anyway so fair do's (even on a low estimate you are at 450pts). i've had my Gen taken out by a 90pt warmachine 1st turn, it happens.

Ganymede
02-08-2007, 17:09
Having him appear randomly would definitely require a test of some sort.


Not necessarily. There are three important points to heep in mind here. First off, the assassin is basically a 3 attack model. Even tooled up, he can not inflict excessive carnage. Secondly, he is only unit strength one. Such means that his sudden appearance will never result in a negated rank bonus or the like. Lastly, consider that the assassin pays a 55 point premium over the noble. This 55 points has to be something that a player is wiling to spend, and currently few are willing to pay such a price.


Combine these factors and we see that no test is necessary here as there is no substantial reason to limit the ability. Also consider that the assassin still can't pop up in a unit that contains a sorceress.

Also remember that to your opponent, your assassin could be in any number of units. Your opponent has to plan as if the assassin could pop up at any time or else he is going to get blindsided. My rule change simply sets it up so the assassin actually could be in any number of units.

King Thurgun
02-08-2007, 20:09
and if someone took 3 assassins? 50% of killing the general 1st turn! sounds a little broken....

Ah, but if they decided to get 3 assassins with theorized sniper crossbow, then they've spent about 400 some odd points to cap your general, while in the meantime they have no scroll caddies, battle standard bearers, or high leadership character. Not to mention things like the Howler Wind spell and magic items should protect you well enough. And if all else fails, screen your characters with some cheap fast cav. Good for baiting those quick dark elf units anyway.

Khorghan
02-08-2007, 20:21
If you want him to actually be able to assassinate anything other than 2 wound wizards before getting run down:

WS 9
A 3
I 9

Hit and Run
Killing Blow

Temple of Khaine Abilities/Items (Assassin can only use this list for items, and can take up to 75 pts.):

Manbane (Poison, +1 Str, D3 Wounds, Ranged and Close Combat) - 75 pts.
Dance of Death (5+ Killing Blow) - 25 pts.
Shadow - Deploy as Scout - 25 pts.

This is just off the top of my head. He is still only M5 and T3 with little or no protection other than Hit and Run. He shouldn't be a troop killer.

This sounds pretty good

sulla
02-08-2007, 20:36
the current assasin works as a great R&F killer, but it has been messed up in the current rules. i agree KB should come as standard, possibly even a 5+KB. 2 posioned hand weapons as well (plus an extra rule that means you roll for KB chance on poisoned hits)

am not too bothered about ranged firepower, you want this guy in combat, so if he is not he would probably be marching to get there anyway.

i agree about the 30 pt Kb and wardsave thing. very annyoing.

5+ KB is definately out of the question on a strikes first when revealed, up to 5 attacks super-high ws model. He should be someone with a reasonable chance of getting a KB each turn (about 50%) on a character with no wards. So extra hand weapon plus kb as standard is enough.

As for the ranged weapon, it's not for assassins who hide in units. It's for assassins who choose to scout with or without a unit of shade bodyguards. This guy deserves a shooting assassination skill and access to missile weapons. Perhaps the ability to pick characters out of enemy units too like many spells and some WE and Empire characters can do.

maze ironheart
03-08-2007, 09:59
They should use the assasin for what he is ment to do and that's fight other heros/lords.They should do it in a duel the assin has the first strike due to not wearing armour and he/she get's the killing blow on a roll of a 5 or 6 due to him being a master of killing.Then at the end of the game when you add victory point's if the assasin killed the general you get the 100pt's for killing the general and another 100pts for assanating the general and he/she get's 50pt's for assainating other hero's.

sulla
05-08-2007, 07:15
They should use the assasin for what he is ment to do and that's fight other heros/lords.They should do it in a duel the assin has the first strike due to not wearing armour and he/she get's the killing blow on a roll of a 5 or 6 due to him being a master of killing.Then at the end of the game when you add victory point's if the assasin killed the general you get the 100pt's for killing the general and another 100pts for assanating the general and he/she get's 50pt's for assainating other hero's.

Giving an assassin bonuses that only work in a challenge depower him a bit though... he pops out, issues a challenge and... the champion accepts for the general... Besides, assassins are the opposite of noble champions. Challenges are not really their thing. They strike unannounced. Assassins should never have to accept a challenge.