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W0lf
01-08-2007, 21:20
Why does the God of magic have a worse lore then slaanesh???

Id much rather have a Tzeentch army that has the lore of slaanesh then use Tzeentch magic.

it would make sense if you couldnt mix marks at all as Tzeentch get cheaper sorcs (70 pts for a lvl 2 sorc) who are also conviently killing machines, plus they get more PD.

But when you can take undivided with Tzeentch chariots and Slaanesh sorcs it seems a tad dumb.

A undivided army that is Tzeentch units with slaanesh sorcs is better magically then a all Tzeentch army.

Not to mention they can take khorne knights + warriors for extra Dispel dice.

Malorian
01-08-2007, 21:55
I don't think tzeentch magic is all that bad. I know playing aginst them that's it's very hard to know which spells to try to stop because you never know which ones will hurt the most.

winter has ended
01-08-2007, 22:16
tzeentch magic is rather good, especially if you want a charater near impossible to kill or help a unit to survive, also the fact you can turn enemies into horrors is amazing agaisnt low armour save opponents, eg undead
"oh look ive summoned 12 zombies"
"oh look 8 of them are now horrors"
whats not to like

Lord Steven
01-08-2007, 22:26
The best tzeentch armies I've seen feature a mounted general (dragon / disc / steed) with the staff and 3+ ward vs missiles. Then an exalted champ or two, marauders, couple of chariots, unit of knights with a bound spell banner and a couple of units of horrors.

Individually the components aren't that bad. However, 6 - 8 levels of magic, extra power dice, bound items and horror spellcasting means you just have to bend over and take it at some point during the magic phase.

With slaanesh there tends to be more fast units. Depending upon your strategy you usually aim to get a spell off at the opportune moment.

Remember, Slaanesh isn't about doing damage. It's about forcing the opponent into a bad situation.

I've never seen the slaanesh powered by tzeentch dice used to any great effect. I would imagine the army would be weaker than a proper version of each respective army.

athamas
01-08-2007, 22:46
the difference as lord steven noted is the style of play...

Tzeentch magic is all about damage and alittle protection [loverly ward save and that nice reroll!]

Slaaneshi magic is all about messing with your opponant, stopping them from doing.. well what they want to!

Exalted Scar-vet
01-08-2007, 23:15
Steven is spot on, although the tzeentch spells may not be as good as the slaanesh ones... there is a flip side to it.

Your tzeentch Casters are also champions who rape in close combat so overall you have better heroes, aswell as many more spells to cast and more units.


And a tzeentch lord on dragon with the eye... nasty to play agaisnt

Malorian
01-08-2007, 23:18
Lol, I almost started chaos just because of that lord on a dragon with the eye and staff, but then I looked at the warriors and just couldn't put a good list together... stupid warriors...

winter has ended
01-08-2007, 23:20
if this is the healm of many eyes?

Exalted Scar-vet
01-08-2007, 23:27
Nah, the helm gives you always strike first+stupidity, it is avaliable to all chaos.

We were talking about The Golden Eye of Tzeentch, which a Tzeentch only iteam. It gives the bearer and his mount a +3 ward vs missles

Exalted Scar-vet
01-08-2007, 23:29
So as you can see having that on a dragon riding lord can be very dangerous to your foes.

As you know dragons attract LOTS of fire. So having a +3 ward and perhaps re-rollable(tzeentch spell) makes the tzeentch lord one of the most powerful chaos lords

Gorbad Ironclaw
01-08-2007, 23:46
Nah, giving him the eye is a complete waste of points. A little clever use of terrain and thinking about where you move him is all the protection he needs. A dragon and a chaos lord is virtually immune to small arms fire anyway, and it's not so hard to shield yourself against warmachines until you have killed them. Much better of buying something useful for the points.

Anyway, as far as the magic goes. The Slaanesh lore is filled with game-winning spells, the Tzeentch one isn't. Simple as that. It can be a decent support lore, but it's not going to win you the game the same way that the Slaanesh one can(and quite easily too). Being able to dictate or change the opponents movement is huge, and will be far more of a problem than killing a few models and making them into horrors.

Also somewhat ironic that the god of scheming and cunning and plotting have one of the least subtle lores...

kyussinchains
02-08-2007, 07:00
plus, green fire of tzeentch is obscene when you get it off against elf swordmasters, or empire greatswords or black orcs, I have fond memories of killing 17 swordmasters with that spell (all you need to do against my high elf playing opponent is mention green fire of tzeentch, and watch him scrabble for his dispel dice and scrolls.....)

character wise though, as tzeentch is the schemer and planner, you'd expect him to have all the manipulation spells....

Ninsaneja
02-08-2007, 08:59
While Slaanesh seems more powerful at first glance, it is not as focused as the Lore of Change. The Lore of Change meshes quite well with the characters that can use it and is also very reliable - as a lot of the spells can be used in the same way, generally to damage un-engaged enemy targets. Slaanesh is more risky (despite all the chance on red and blue fire!) and can easily backfire - giving your enemy Frenzy, as I have said before, is only an advantage if you are a better tactician. Sometimes you aren't.

Tzeentch magic is also harder to react to - Red Fire is long-ranged and has a low casting cost, but has the potential to do a lot of damage. Opponents who look at d6 strength and say "This will probably do nothing" will be surprised when you roll a six and wipe out a knight unit. Blue Fire is even better, as a lucky shot with that can pummel any unit. Enemies will not be able to risk letting these spells through. Green Fire is less powerful, but still dangerous. Orange Fire can make a chaos lord able to take down ranked units by himself (My favorite setup is Two Hand Weapons and a Shield (for ranged attack), giving him 6 attacks with re-roll, generally he will hit and wound all six times or at least 5. This matches three ranks, outnumber, and standard, and if he makes the sixth he will be winning by one. That's not to say that I charge him into the front of ranked units expecting victory, only that I could if I wanted to...)

Dead Man Walking
02-08-2007, 11:46
I've seen Tzeentch played with upwards of 13-14 powerdice. Most armies have 4-6 dispel dice and 2-3 dispel scrolls. You are going to get your spells off, all the chars were on flying disks and when the warriors got into combat all the characters would come flying in to do some charging great weapon combat resolution (Flying circus.). The only chance you have is to hope that a cannon could take out the lord quick.

With that many power dice I would not want to see Tzeentch with slaanesh spells.

Malorian
02-08-2007, 12:32
Nah, giving him the eye is a complete waste of points. A little clever use of terrain and thinking about where you move him is all the protection he needs. A dragon and a chaos lord is virtually immune to small arms fire anyway, and it's not so hard to shield yourself against warmachines until you have killed them. Much better of buying something useful for the points.

This is rarely true. a lot of people play by line of eye and thus can see a dradon on the other side of most terrain, and just one cannon ball can do a lot of damage.

I usually see slannesh magic to be like tomb king magic: based on game winning spells, so if you save your dispell dice and scrolls for the right times it's no big deal. But then again I've never seen an army powered by tons of tzeentch chariots either...

Briohmar
02-08-2007, 13:57
I have had many games where Slaaneshi magic did absolutely nothing for me. Is you have two sorcerors and they both roll Bliss and attack your unit spell, then theres not much you're going to accomplish. If you happen to roll up spasms, torment, delusions, and bliss, then you may have a particularly effective battle magically, but remember, you have to cast your spells in a specific order. Tzeentch spells all have an opportunity to do something every game, where some Slaanesh ones do not (ever see a Paladin attack a unit of knights? You cause 0 unsaved wounds, now that's a usefull spell, heck, you can't even make him use his magical lance to do it because he's not charging.) But by the same token, some games Slaanesh Magic is the absolute bomb. I love it when I can get skirmishers to move to where I can charge them, break them, and then pursue into something worth more points, that is always fun, or let an opponents best unit of killing goodness stand there doing nothing for a full turn. Unbreakable chaos hounds or Daemons anybody? Yes I love the Slaanesh Lore, but its only powerful in the hands of someone who knows how to use it effectively, as is the Lore of Tzeentch, its just the Tzeetch casters have more dice to work with.

W0lf
02-08-2007, 14:04
what many have already said is:

Tzeentch has more dice!!!

Not if you do undivided.

And as a Tzeentch player id gladly swap lores.

Most Tzeentch players would.

Exalted Scar-vet
02-08-2007, 18:35
But if u go undivided then u have to have and exalted champion to be ur genrel which takes up tons of points.

theunwantedbeing
02-08-2007, 19:49
The slaanesh lore is more strategy based,getting the spell off gets you only half the way to getting the spell to work for you.
You cast your spell,you then need to move your units to a position to be able to take advantage of that spell.

The tzeentch lore is prettymuch all based around direct damage,you cast the spell,it does its thing and you move onto the next spell.

Plus those using the tzeentch lore generally have a lot more dice available to are usually able to throw every spell they have at their opponent on 2 or 3 dice.
With slaanesh magic you dont get that sort of ability,you have to pick and choose the spells you want to use.

Similarly tzeentch character's dont need babysitting,they can wander around on their own very easily causing huge damage while in combat and mor often than not be able to cast a spell or 3 to do damage to those around them.

Slaanesh character's bar a lord with the daemon sword struggle in combat and do need babysitting.

The slaanesh lore isnt better at all,but its not worse,it just does a totally different job to the tzeentch lore.

Khorghan
02-08-2007, 19:55
tzeentch magic is rather good, especially if you want a charater near impossible to kill or help a unit to survive, also the fact you can turn enemies into horrors is amazing agaisnt low armour save opponents, eg undead
"oh look ive summoned 12 zombies"
"oh look 8 of them are now horrors"
whats not to like

Haha yeah thats definatly one of the upsides of the lore of change.

sulla
02-08-2007, 20:03
Haha yeah thats definatly one of the upsides of the lore of change.

Problem is it's worthless vs good fighting enemies because they only suffer a few casualties, who then die to the fighters who then get a free overrun move before their turn starts...

manickze
02-08-2007, 22:02
The Lore of Slaanesh can have game changing effects, The Lore of Tzeentch is just basically pure damage and represents a more significant investment of the armies capabilities. Slaanesh Spells can be better but are overall suited to the fast moving style of Slaanesh armies tend to be.

Whilst I don't play mortals I feel it's valid to include horror spells in Lore of Tzeentch. That's when Tzeentch just urinates acid over all other Magic. By the time I've used my 2 - 4 Horror spells and the opponent has wasted most of his powerdice then it's time to start pummelling with Tzeentch.

Fire of Tzeentch - Useful to pepper units and can generally take out skaven artillery in first turn...OH YEAH.

Coruscation of Energy - "so it causes a str 3 hit against every single model in my unit? Can I see those rules?"

Uncontrolleable Mutation- Not that good although against heavy armour can have some fun.

Red Fire - Can sometimes really sting especially when you use it. It is fickle, but then again you got more dice to use, so what they hey.

Orange Fire - Is really damn useful, rerolls on all combat is mean.

Yellow Fire- very good for points sink models but I usually play DL so don't really use it.

Green fire - Extremely good against lots of elite troops. Used this to great affect against Sword masters, Ironbreakers, Bestigors etc.

Blue Fire - Now this is my assasination tool, I've rolled 12 str 7 hits before and instakilled mounted characters... and their mounts, but most of the time I use this against heavy cavalry or really putting the pain on. Sometimes It'll fizzle, but that is Tzeentch and the dice gods are usually persuaded if I sacrifice some small animals/children before a game. But I usually save it for one of my last spells each round.

Indigo fire is extremely useful against horde armies. I've used it to ruin Skaven Horde armies, Goblin horde armies and skink skirmishing armies. You roll well on a big skavenslave unit and all of a sudden you got 200 pts worth of horrors amidst the enemy

Violet Fire - I've killed a few hero level characters but it's not generally useful, I am however waiting for the day to kill another greater Daemon with it.

Sanjuro
02-08-2007, 23:07
Nah, giving him the eye is a complete waste of points. A little clever use of terrain and thinking about where you move him is all the protection he needs. A dragon and a chaos lord is virtually immune to small arms fire anyway, and it's not so hard to shield yourself against warmachines until you have killed them. Much better of buying something useful for the points.




It's thirty points, mate. If you are spending 800 points on a single model, tossing in another 30 to guarantee a 3+ ward doesn't seem particularly wasteful.

Exalted Scar-vet
03-08-2007, 05:29
Problem is it's worthless vs good fighting enemies because they only suffer a few casualties, who then die to the fighters who then get a free overrun move before their turn starts...

Accually i beleive u need to charge to get a overun move and when the horrors apear they count as charging, not the people that got turned into them

Von Wibble
03-08-2007, 10:56
Overrun is charge only yes.

Some valid points on Tzeentch but noone has mentioned the main flaw - any wizard at any given time can only cast a couple of worthwhile spells.

Yellow and Orange Fire are both spells that give the wizard more hitting power/protection. But the opponent will not dispel them unless said wizard is in combat. (as he has his own magic phase if necessary to remove the protections)

But if he's in combat he can't cast the blue, green and red fires. So all of those power dice suddenly equate to less effect.

I have found when I face Tzeentch armies that I will let Red fire through and then dispel Blue Fire, Indigo and Green with a vengeance. Most Tzeentch armies will get at most 3 castings of these spells between the whole army (OK the extreme armies with 3 or more wizards get more). So my high elves and empire magic defense are fairly safe from the real killers as I tend to have 8 dispel dice plus scrolls (warrior priests and loremasters are great!)

The trick to not worrying about Tzeencth magic is that it is in effect a shooting phase if you choose the correct spells to let through. A shooting phase that is very expensive and still not as good as an empire one. Green fire on average in absolute BEST circumstances (unit has 2 more S than T, and gets no AS) kills 5/12 of a unit -thats white lions and swordmasters - whose champions get items like the -3 to cast. Vs elf spearmen and empire foot troops its less than 1/4 of the unit (and 20 empire swordsmen lose just 3-4 models) - a 2D6 S4 spell is better (and less to cast). And against knights, orcs, dwarfs, etc it does very little thanks to lower S than T.

Blue Fire- Limited range and it can do badly. Most opponents I have faced with it use it on knights and tough things - so they have to roll 5+ for S to worry me. Can be let through in an emergency.

Slaanesh magic otoh has virtually every spell in the "dispel NOW" variety - only spells 4 and 6 are poor. Their casters are also cheaper (a Tzeentch wizard isn't 70pts as posted above and can't just be considered an upgrade as so many of his spells can't be cast into combat).

At the moment what Tzeentch has going for it is 2 magic items that are simply unbalanced. Out of interest has anyone tried a killer tzeentch magic phase with neither of these items?

Manicze - On Horrors - their spells are nasty but short ranged iirc. Also once you throw 4 horror spells that's 600pts spent (and keeping faithful to the sacred number of tzeentch its 960!). Add in a lord of tzeentch and a couple of wizards and you've now spent about 1400. Doesn't leave much room for units with actual combat potential... Strikes me that although certainly nasty its an army that will do really badly against some enemies - a chaos gunline almost.

athamas
03-08-2007, 11:31
Saaneshi magic can be devestating... or it can be somewhat usless..


Blissful throes:
basic magic missile, S6 is great, but its short gange limits its use...

Luxurious Torment:
great spell for killing mages or powering up your knights [you get Khorne knights for free!]

Titillating Selusions:
can help you get nice gharges or lead the enemy around the battlefeild

Delectable torture:
nice for targeting characters in elite units, but has limited use

Enrapturing spasms:
The most destructive spell in the list... that does nothing itself!
it can effectivly remove a unit from the game, and any characters in said unit!

Delicious Excruciation:
usefull for stopping deamons from popping, and units from running, though as remains in play, limited uses, and high casting value usually means this is the first spell to go!


overall Slaaneshi magic is very potent if you are able to get the correct spels at the right time...

otherwise its just reasonabel!

lokigod
04-08-2007, 07:55
hmm I play tzeentch and I love the lore period... well all but yellow fire I could switch that :) Thing with tzeentch is you need to be able to dominate the movement phase also. So a exalted or lots of guys on discs:) stay back let them come and weaken them. Most people I play have a very hard time keeping up with 3 or 4 chars zooming around poping off missles and such. Although I think the tzeentch magic phase shines the most when in the deamonic legions. Trick to tzeentch magic I have found is lots of it since its a gamblers lore :)

_Lucian_
04-08-2007, 09:38
i think the most important factor about this discussion is the army you are playing with. Tzeentch spells dont care about which army they are in to the same degree, as they are focused to damage its more about how quickly you can kill your opponent before your over priced wizards get popped.

Slaanesh is a totally different situation. Slaanesh spells are only usefull if you have a fast/unforgiving army. Most of the spells are too short range, not applicable in early turns for opponents to worry about. This means a clever opponent will wait and let off the powerfull spells early on where there potential for mayhem is minimal, saving his DS for later in the game. You can move your opponent out of line? so what thats the only spell he wants to stop at this point of the game, D6 S6 hits is only 12" and guess what only really really hurts small pricing units, so take it on the chin. The trick for slannesh is you have to be close or you find yourslef dumbfounded for the first few turns. Meanwhile tzeentch has been pummling the opponent everyturn.....

If your army is fast, mounted and scarey choose slaanesh, other wise you wont be able to tactically take advantage of all the spells you need to cast. Competent players know when to let spells slide and know their own magic defense capabilities, so any time you are practically wasting dice casting spells which arent essential then you are wasting those points spent on your wizards

athamas
04-08-2007, 09:54
i must add i recently played a game against Tzeentch with my slaaneshi army.. my opponant put all 3 of his characters in one unit [that will kill anything it comes into contact with] i managed to get Enrapturing spasms on it every turn [first he failed to dispell it, then 2 irrisistable forces]

it won me the game as i took out over 1/2 his army when that unit finaly fell.. auto hitting frenzied chosen knights hurt alot!

W0lf
04-08-2007, 09:56
my opponant put all 3 of his characters in one unit

wow and you managed to win? :O

/end sarcasm.

_Lucian_
04-08-2007, 10:11
rofl, there is a prime example of your opponent giving you the total tactical advantage. IMO theres no fun in a game when your opponent makes it easy for you...

Ninsaneja
04-08-2007, 12:22
Some valid points on Tzeentch but noone has mentioned the main flaw - any wizard at any given time can only cast a couple of worthwhile spells.

>>It depends on play style, I have managed to cast red fire with every wizard five out of six turns of the game... And on different occasions only once before hitting combat and then never again.



Yellow and Orange Fire are both spells that give the wizard more hitting power/protection. But the opponent will not dispel them unless said wizard is in combat. (as he has his own magic phase if necessary to remove the protections)

I charge and THEN cast orange fire. It only takes one combat phase for a chaos lord to rip apart a unit with Orange Fire. Generally, he hits and wounds with every single attack. Even with only an additional hand weapon he will be beating infantry units. Then again, even if it's dispelled he will still only lose by one or two against a full-ranked unit.



But if he's in combat he can't cast the blue, green and red fires. So all of those power dice suddenly equate to less effect.

Please indicate where it says you can't cast green fire in combat? It's excellent for removing flankers and counter-charging units while in combat.



I have found when I face Tzeentch armies that I will let Red fire through and then dispel Blue Fire, Indigo and Green with a vengeance. Most Tzeentch armies will get at most 3 castings of these spells between the whole army (OK the extreme armies with 3 or more wizards get more). So my high elves and empire magic defense are fairly safe from the real killers as I tend to have 8 dispel dice plus scrolls (warrior priests and loremasters are great!)

"Let red fire through" is not always going to work for you. The more it's cast, the higher the chance of getting lucky... It has done for me everything from fizzle with 1 strength 1 hit to destroying chosen knights with 5 strength 6 hits... all in the same magic phase (Tzeentch vs. Slaanesh, btw, and I'm happy to say it was a very crushing victory on my part).



The trick to not worrying about Tzeencth magic is that it is in effect a shooting phase if you choose the correct spells to let through. A shooting phase that is very expensive and still not as good as an empire one. Green fire on average in absolute BEST circumstances (unit has 2 more S than T, and gets no AS) kills 5/12 of a unit -thats white lions and swordmasters - whose champions get items like the -3 to cast. Vs elf spearmen and empire foot troops its less than 1/4 of the unit (and 20 empire swordsmen lose just 3-4 models) - a 2D6 S4 spell is better (and less to cast). And against knights, orcs, dwarfs, etc it does very little thanks to lower S than T.

Green Fire is for targeting high strength foes, of course. Every army should have one of these... and if they don't, they'll probably at least have something with low T and A. And if not? Swap that spell when rolling.

And as for choosing the correct spells to let through? Tzeentch with 3 or 4 wizards generally gets to choose themselves - by which order they cast them in :). My general philosophy is to hit with red fire first to shake them up (as watching a powerful knight unit take casualties to Red Fire makes people jumpy with their dispel dice.) Then start throwing around blue fires and green, which most people will recognize are important to dispel. Finally, toss orange and yellow fire on those who have it (As not even the dumbest opponent will waste dice on these spells, they go last.)



Blue Fire- Limited range and it can do badly. Most opponents I have faced with it use it on knights and tough things - so they have to roll 5+ for S to worry me. Can be let through in an emergency.

Blue Fire is the most powerful spell on the list. It is extremely dangerous to let it through. Remember that fully half the possible results for strength are 5 or more? I also cast it on large infantry units where the # of hits is more important than the strength. But yeah, Blue Fire can reliably destroy armored targets.



Slaanesh magic otoh has virtually every spell in the "dispel NOW" variety - only spells 4 and 6 are poor. Their casters are also cheaper (a Tzeentch wizard isn't 70pts as posted above and can't just be considered an upgrade as so many of his spells can't be cast into combat).

4 out of 7 can't be cast *into* combat, but only 2 out of 7 can't be cast *from* combat. Unless every enemy on the table is fighting you, you will be able to cast with effect. In addition, Tzeentch casters may be placed into a unit without being a liability in combat (In fact, I like to add them to knight units, with orange fire they can be devastating.)



At the moment what Tzeentch has going for it is 2 magic items that are simply unbalanced. Out of interest has anyone tried a killer tzeentch magic phase with neither of these items?

I don't know, have you ever tried a killer Slaanesh magic phase without any wizards? And to be honest, I really have, as when I first read the Staff of Change I thought it was one die per turn, soooo...



Manicze - On Horrors - their spells are nasty but short ranged iirc. Also once you throw 4 horror spells that's 600pts spent (and keeping faithful to the sacred number of tzeentch its 960!). Add in a lord of tzeentch and a couple of wizards and you've now spent about 1400. Doesn't leave much room for units with actual combat potential... Strikes me that although certainly nasty its an army that will do really badly against some enemies - a chaos gunline almost.
Tzeentch is easily a chaos gunline. And one generally only takes one or two units of horrors... And then adds more as the game goes on. I don't even take any horrors (as I don't have the models.) Flamers also contribute to the shooting in the shooting phase (but are a little too easy to target with shooting.)

Kerill
05-08-2007, 06:43
Tzeentch magic is not as good as slaanesh, period. But Tzeentch ,magic comes woith a lot of power dice. You can get a ward save for a unit with 2 spare power dice at the end of the phase (or even a good chance with 1 if you have the staff). Dragon ogres or chaos knights with an extra 5+ward are nasty and its nice protection from shooting, it also means you can take AOD instead and have a ward save.

Tzeentxh random spells are slightly better than their none random counterparts since your opponent knows it might wreck his hammer unit- it probably won't but who knows, it makes your opponent a little more likely to use his dispel dice and scrolls. 30" range magic missile is very handy.

Orange fire is great, violet is generally poor unless the enemy has a very expensive unit he needs to protect (and can be cast in combat which is great).

The biggest problem as mentioned is that Tzeentch, when they get into combat can't use all their spells effectively, just one RIP spell and one spell that only a lord has a good chance of getting off. Thats why my 2150 list has three spellcasters (Lord, exhaulted, wargor). The wargor is cheap and can use his spells in the second wave, I give him the basic magic missile and the bears anger (goretooth) for a nice mixture of spells I am guaranteed to have. Agains a spell familiar is a great choice for an exalted and at 15 points can be fit in with the golden eye/AOD.

Having just two casters and no spell familiar means you will be wasting dice or using too many per spell for more misfires.

And as noted above a chaos lord and his unit should be able to break a unit and be casting spells again in no time. The exhalted should be put in the same position by supporting on a disk or with a second hammer unit (IMHO).

Re-rolling to hit and would rolls and armour and war saves really is monstrously powerful if you can get it off.

Horrors suffer from not having to cast their spell at the start of the magic phase, greatly decreasing the use of the horror making spell.

Comrade Wraith
05-08-2007, 08:14
Tzeentch is ace! come on, i mean who woulnt like a lord of chaos who's nigh unbeatable in combat AND a level four wizard, the thing with Tzeentch is that the mark on normal regiments gives you more power dice so your unlikely to fail a spell (my lord has around 10 power dice a turn!!!!). Besides, turning your enemies into horrors aint all that bad, and the magic missiles are pretty darn ace, and there is also a defensive spell, yellow fire which gives a ward save and green fire turning enemy units against themselves, and lets not forget the moment where the big nasty black orc big boss with a giant toothpick of doom lines up a charge against your sorcerer and finds himself in hurled into the realm of chaos with a sharp "ping" (violet fire). The slannesh magic is all about confusing units and giving extra psychology effects, which is as it should be, Tzeentch magic is chaotic, mutating and powerful, give it a try.

manickze
05-08-2007, 10:18
Manicze - On Horrors - their spells are nasty but short ranged iirc. Also once you throw 4 horror spells that's 600pts spent (and keeping faithful to the sacred number of tzeentch its 960!). Add in a lord of tzeentch and a couple of wizards and you've now spent about 1400. Doesn't leave much room for units with actual combat potential... Strikes me that although certainly nasty its an army that will do really badly against some enemies - a chaos gunline almost.

Coruscation Starts at 12" and is useable in engaged combat, from 2nd turn you will be using it and only it, and your opponent will be trying to dispel it with at least 2-3 dispel die leaves open slather for Tzeentch spells at the end of the magic phase. Combat potential is only useful if your opponents make it in one piece across the battlefield.

Dinadan
05-08-2007, 10:42
tzeentch magic is rather good, especially if you want a charater near impossible to kill or help a unit to survive, also the fact you can turn enemies into horrors is amazing agaisnt low armour save opponents, eg undead
"oh look ive summoned 12 zombies"
"oh look 8 of them are now horrors"
whats not to likeDon't forget that the Horrors have their own bound spell for turning even more enemies into Horrors.

Kerill
05-08-2007, 11:44
but they can't use the bound spell the turn they appear- they can only use it "at the start of the magic phase" which blows

Ninsaneja
05-08-2007, 11:49
Will people stop saying Tzeentch only has two spells that can be cast in combat? I don't know where this is coming from, only two spells in the lore are magic missiles and none of the other ones even need los iirc...

Dinadan
05-08-2007, 14:12
but they can't use the bound spell the turn they appear- they can only use it "at the start of the magic phase" which blows

Hmm, I missed that part....that blows. The actual wording is 'their magic phase', not 'the magic phase' but I guess I'm just spliting hairs as that wouldn't really make sense as they don't have their own indevidual phase...

Von Wibble
05-08-2007, 14:59
>>
I charge and THEN cast orange fire. It only takes one combat phase for a chaos lord to rip apart a unit with Orange Fire. Generally, he hits and wounds with every single attack. Even with only an additional hand weapon he will be beating infantry units. Then again, even if it's dispelled he will still only lose by one or two against a full-ranked unit.

Assuming no characters to wound him back. Perhaps its just my opponent but every time he's tried that the resulting break check fails and its vps on a plate. That said a chariot charging in at the same time can rectify that one.


Please indicate where it says you can't cast green fire in combat? It's excellent for removing flankers and counter-charging units while in combat.

My mistake. Thought it was LOS. But my point about it being situational still stands.

"Let red fire through" is not always going to work for you. The more it's cast, the higher the chance of getting lucky...

Nonsense. The more it is cast, the higher the chances of it being average - strong law of large numbers dictates this. Generally you let D6 S4 through (obviously not always but usually) - this is the same. Yes you will lose units but I count this as shooting casualties - when you have invested over 1000pts in magic it would be churlish not to expect some return on this.

Green Fire is for targeting high strength foes, of course. Every army should have one of these... and if they don't, they'll probably at least have something with low T and A. And if not? Swap that spell when rolling.

My empire army has swordsmen, knights, and missile troops. That'll be a swap for you. My high elves only have swordmasters - with amulet of purifying flame to help there. The problem with a spell that has situational targets is that if that target isn't the one you need to kill (and just targetting a tactically unimportant unit because you can is a waste of pd), the spell is not good.

And as for choosing the correct spells to let through? Tzeentch with 3 or 4 wizards generally gets to choose themselves - by which order they cast them in :). My general philosophy is to hit with red fire first to shake them up (as watching a powerful knight unit take casualties to Red Fire makes people jumpy with their dispel dice.)

Lucky you. With so many knights getting 4+ saves more often than not is is very unusual to kill more than 1.

Then start throwing around blue fires and green, which most people will recognize are important to dispel. Finally, toss orange and yellow fire on those who have it (As not even the dumbest opponent will waste dice on these spells, they go last.)


Blue Fire is the most powerful spell on the list. It is extremely dangerous to let it through. Remember that fully half the possible results for strength are 5 or more? I also cast it on large infantry units where the # of hits is more important than the strength. But yeah, Blue Fire can reliably destroy armored targets.

Your armour save rolling clearly lacks faith. Everyone knows that when you force your opponent to make several 4+ saves he will:) And to make it 4+ against empire you need S6. Same odds of that as S2, which is hardly scary. You are reading Tzeentch spells by their potential whilst I am judging by their average damage. 7 S4.5 is good. But no, not reliable vs armour.

4 out of 7 can't be cast *into* combat, but only 2 out of 7 can't be cast *from* combat. Unless every enemy on the table is fighting you, you will be able to cast with effect. In addition, Tzeentch casters may be placed into a unit without being a liability in combat (In fact, I like to add them to knight units, with orange fire they can be devastating.)

The 2 that can't be cast from combat are spells that you refer to as casting each turn. So combat is limiting you.

I don't know, have you ever tried a killer Slaanesh magic phase without any wizards? And to be honest, I really have, as when I first read the Staff of Change I thought it was one die per turn, soooo...

1 die per turn is all you need tbh (when casting it is rare that yuou need mor because of risk of exhaustion). And running a phase without wizards is hardly applicable at all.

Tzeentch is easily a chaos gunline. And one generally only takes one or two units of horrors... And then adds more as the game goes on. I don't even take any horrors (as I don't have the models.) Flamers also contribute to the shooting in the shooting phase (but are a little too easy to target with shooting.)

Any gunline can fall apart to a bigger gunline or fast enough foe. Often games against tzeentch are over within a few turns as either the magic has killed everything or been neutered. Sometimes that makes a good game, sometimes not.