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evil_mr_woo
02-08-2007, 20:05
After looking on here and on other forums ive found theres a lot of people like me longing for a new Chaos Dwarf army :D. Well were going to have to wait a while so well have to make up our own lists in the mean while what would you like to see in the new list and how would you go about making it?
For instance id like to see daemonic brass bulls and some other type of daemon to represent the chosen of hashut dark haven do a good brass bull mini id have that as a mount for a lord or hero ive always liked the bull taurus so that would be good to go however i hated the face of the lamasu so bye bye to that i love the rackham chaos dwarf range especially the flame throwers so theyre in i also controversially like the silly hat Chaos Dwarves so maybe two tribes an above ground leadership class with sorcerers engineers and the nobility and the mutated underclass and slave lords (ie therackham looking minis) added to this earthshaker cannons and the other cannon i dont like the rocket launcher too much either so nix thatthats all for now tell me what you think and youre ideas as once ive finished my halflings my next project is deffinately gonna be chaos dwarves.

wallacer
02-08-2007, 20:45
I would like to see (in no particular order):

Hobgoblins retained (but maybe raised to 3 or 4 points each)
Kollossus (go on Gav, you know you want to ;) )
Immortals (elite heavy infantry)
The whirlwind and tenderiser warmachines to be useable again
More magic items (oh God, yes...)
Blunderbusses retained, but maybe with the option to use crossbows as well.
Slavemasters and Engineers as character choices

E-Dog
02-08-2007, 20:56
The option of taking them with my Hordes/Beasts:D

Neknoh
02-08-2007, 21:04
As is now, points increase for a lot of things though... and a warmachine firing several blast templates into one area, like, nominate target, guess range, place 3 small templates with the holes centred, scatter each of them 2D6 inches

The Dark One
02-08-2007, 21:05
mainly i would like to see the big hats kept
hobgoblins
whirlwind and tenderiser
blunderbusses
earth shakers and death rockets
bull centers
and of corse warriors
kollossus

Cypher, the Emperor
02-08-2007, 22:42
The option of taking them with my Hordes/Beasts:D

Why?

That makes no sense...

theunwantedbeing
02-08-2007, 22:59
Big hats on at least character's.
Loads of varied and upgradable war machines.
Lots of chaos dwarves in nice big block units.
No orcs,or goblins,only hobgoblins.
Only Chaos dwarf character's.

erm....
Daemon bound things,that are powerful but can go wrong,the bigger more powerful the thing the more dangerous it is to yourself if it goes wrong.

Great taurus,llammasu and so forth should definitely stay,along with bull centaurs.
Not fussed about compatability with the hoardes of chaos rules,although being able to hire them like with ogre kingdoms but for chaos only armies as rare choices would be nice.

Then we dont have to take dogs of war cannons or crossbowmen quite so much in our khornate wizard armies.

Hulabalo
02-08-2007, 23:36
After looking on here and on other forums ive found theres a lot of people like me longing for a new Chaos Dwarf army :D. Well were going to have to wait a while so well have to make up our own lists in the mean while what would you like to see in the new list and how would you go about making it?
For instance id like to see daemonic brass bulls and some other type of daemon to represent the chosen of hashut dark haven do a good brass bull mini id have that as a mount for a lord or hero ive always liked the bull taurus so that would be good to go however i hated the face of the lamasu so bye bye to that i love the rackham chaos dwarf range especially the flame throwers so theyre in i also controversially like the silly hat Chaos Dwarves so maybe two tribes an above ground leadership class with sorcerers engineers and the nobility and the mutated underclass and slave lords (ie therackham looking minis) added to this earthshaker cannons and the other cannon i dont like the rocket launcher too much either so nix thatthats all for now tell me what you think and youre ideas as once ive finished my halflings my next project is deffinately gonna be chaos dwarves.

I would like to see full stops…

Grom
02-08-2007, 23:43
Even bigger hats.

The Anarchist
02-08-2007, 23:47
well after reading the grudge bearer stuff a collossus wold just kick ass!
the hell cannon of course should be in there however i would like some relay strange magic cannon. i was thinking some thing that like sot Tzeentch flamers/other random deamon or whatever from it rather than conventional projectiles. also the tall hats should stay, but dont think are realy appropriate for the common troops.
could solve this by maybe having no dwarf types in the core section, only hobgoblins or some sorts of slaves. might make the dwarfs seem more an opprsive overclass vastly outnumbered by their slaves, would also make tall hat a bit more unusual whilst keeping the old CD character.

Halelel
03-08-2007, 00:32
Well, this may upset some people but :

1. Chaos Dwarfs should NOT be affiliated with Hordes of Chaos. I'm not even going to try to imagine the horror of trying to balance Hordes of Chaos + Beastmen + Daemons (whenever they make the army book) + Chaos Dwarves in a standard army list. Not to mention in regards to merc units from DoW and OK.

I know Chaos players want everything, but tough cookies, you can't have CD too, :D

2. I'd like to see Chaos Dwarfs move away from "robotic" horses, warriors and golems and such. It seems everyone always wants these giant metallic creatures in the Warhammer Fantasy world, please people, leave the terminators and dreads in 40k where they belong. I can understand the odd and occassional mechanical unit, but not whole armies made of them.

3. I agree that the Lamasu should be re-worked, the original model is truly a horrific sight (and not in a good way!). I do want to see it still stick around in though , as well as the Great Taurus. Bull centaurs will hopefully stick around as well.

4. Immortals aka "evil ironbreakers" sound like a solid idea for the army. More ranged infantry sounds like a good idea as well, they are evil shooty dwarfs after all. Following lore, I'd hope they introduce a plethora of new war machines for the Chaos Dwarfs since they rely on them due to their low population. I always imagined that Chaos Dwarfs would be just as shooty as normal dwarfs, if not more so since they are vastly outnumbered by their slaves.

It may prove to be unpopular here, but I'm going to say it anyways, the Earthshaker is too effective for it's cost value. It needs to be adjusted or limited to one per army.

5. I hope they maintain the lore behind Chaos Dwarfs. To that effect, I'd like to see black orcs removed from the list, I never quite understood why they would continue breeding and using them after they almost toppled the civilization. Leave them to O&G players. Also, I'd like to see the reprecussions of that revolt on the civilization lore. The Chaos Dwarfs were already limited in number, having a huge number killed in the revolts could not have been good for them obviously. All the fan fiction likes to depict the current empire as being stronger and more prosperous than before, ummmmmm, what?!?!

6. I'd prefer to see the army move away from the reliance on Hobgoblins (as I honestly believe they deserve their own book as well in the far future) as well. If the lore suggests that the Hobgoblins are always fighting Cathay, than why are there such a large number of them just sitting around with the Chaos Dwarfs? You would think the Hobgobla Khan would recall his troops, just my opinion, :)

7. Finally, PLEASE leave in the big hats! They are so symbolic of the evil stunties that removing them would just make them look like mini chaos warriors again, :cries:

That's all I can think of for now, gotta remember though that nothing definitive has been said on even if they are going to go and redo Chaos Dwarfs. A lot can happen in the next few years that could change GWs' minds, :(

Omegakai
03-08-2007, 01:52
keep the big hats.... i will be sore and bitter if they drop them :/

itcamefromthedeep
03-08-2007, 02:42
well, you asked for it:

-Remove the Orcs and Goblins from the list completely. Hobgoblins should be the only greenskins in the list. This is to prevent the rules crossover of rules between army books.

-CD need their own elites, such as Immortals. CD is also a good opprtunity to do something different with Dwarf elites like an additional hand weapon.

-Bull Centaurs need to be turned into heavy cavalry, so they should get either more Toughness or a better save.

-Sneaky Gits need to skirmish. Possibly scout as well.

-A cannon-fodder generic slave unit to represent all of the races that the CDs use as slaves. Something for 3pts/model or so.

-Dwarf Cavalry looks rediculous. No Dwarfs should ride large monsters, including the Lammasu and Taurus. Lammasu should become unridden monsters at 1 per Rare choice.

-The Bull Centaur Lord should either be toned down (or removed) or toned up (put it on a 50mm base and call it a monster). Right now there is no reason to take a normal Chaos Dwarf Lord.

-Many rules need to be cleaned up, such as those for Blunderbusses and Earthshakers. They should use wording and concepts that a more intuitive and follow the rules better (Earthshakers just stop you from marching, Blunderbusses roll to hit).

snurl
03-08-2007, 04:38
Maybe they could use Gnoblar slaves in the new list?
(Hat bearers, no doubt)

Ward.
03-08-2007, 04:57
The earth shakers have to stay, I like the idea of a reduction of the dwarfs as the core of the army as well as the cheap slave unit, members of all races having there minds wiped with some sort of device, some arms replaced with mining tools and forced to hold the enemy up long enough for the dwarfs to load their guns.

WarSmith7
03-08-2007, 04:59
I think that the only possible army that could field golems on a reasonable level are the Dawi Zharr.

That's why, in my person al list, there are many choices in which to field golems and living artillery. Don't think machines, think giant iron shells given daemonic souls, far more magic than mechanical.

Also, Hobgobs shouls stay. The Dawi Zharr and the hobgobs are linked fluff-wise and should not be seperated. The hobgoblins betrayed all thier fellow greenskins to serve/gain favour with the Chaos dwarfs, and sure as **** they should be in a chaos dwarf list.

Dwarfs riding giant monsters: egh... Personally, I never liked it, at all, they look ridiculus, thier legs are far to short to be able to hold onto a massive bull. Instead, the Lammasu is a Lord and rare choice and is a independant monster, it's the closest thing Hashut would have to a true daemon. The Great taurus is a massive, chariot size iron bull used to that contains some of the essence of hashut. Then again, these are just my thoughts and ideas on how i'd reinvision the Dawi Zharr.

Things like the Bazookas, big hats on infantry, things like the Tenderizer and whirlwind just reek of campy, happy go lucky, goofy dawi zharr. While I believe the new CD's should be nothing of the like. If anything, going by the OK's fluff and the Hellcannon itself. The Dawi Zharr should be a sinister, dark, brooding race. Like mad scientist almost, so consumed with thier work. I mean, they trade away mounds of gold and infernal machines in an exchange for fresh slaves used to mine more resources and to be used as sacrifices for hte summoning and binding of demons. How does that translate into a wheelbarrle with a lawnmower blade in the front and bazookas?

I dunno, I just would like to see a few things when (hopefully soon) GW decides to make the new list.

-Elite heavy CD infantry

- Living Warmachines and Golems

-Light infantry and calvary hobgoblins.

But that's just me, what the hell do I know anyway...

EDIT- one last thing, Salves don't work for any other army than skaven. THe Skaven have some wierd culture thing where they readily accept bondage when defeated. Most other races, not so much. Trying to put slaves on the field to get shot and die for you jsut wouldn't work. They'd turn on you so fast it wouldn't even be funny. So no, imo, slvaes dont work, only hobgoblins do.

sulla
03-08-2007, 05:42
Here's what i'd like to see;

Daemonic-mechanical constructs (war machines and golem types),
Keep the O&G (and hobgoblins of course)...
Unridden lammasu as lord choices and unridden Taurus as rare choices,
Keep the babylonian look rather than the hellcannon gimp look.

I'd love to see the CD based loosly on a Babylonian/Sumerian archetype; Elite CD and CD characters with hordes of slave races to support them... but make it more warhammer-esque by adding in some dark tech and magic...

Gorbad Ironclaw
03-08-2007, 06:19
Why?

That makes no sense...



Because some chaos players seems to have the strange idea that just because they are called Chaos Dwarfs they should belong to there lists, where as they isn't anymore connected to them than Skavens are(and I don't see any cries to incoorporate them into the chaos list).

75hastings69
03-08-2007, 07:10
First off hats HAVE to stay, they are one of the things that make CD unique rather than just naughty dwarfs. At least have optional big hats on the plastic sprues.

Here are the choices that should be in.

Great Taurus (new reworked mini)
Lammassu (again new mini)(maybe make this unridden)
Lords, heros, sorcerors etc. as before but NO hobgoblin Lord choices.
CD units
Blunderbuss units
Hobgoblins (inc. archers)(new minis please)
Black Orcs (with a restriction)
Hobgoblin Bolt Thrower
Hobgoblin Wolf Riders
Death Rocket
Earthshaker
Bull Centaurs
Hell Cannon

These are like a wish list type...

Kollosus
Brass Bull
Chaos Dwarf Blasting teams (miners but using Dyanamite instead of pickaxes)
Mine Wyrms (swarm size tiny sub species of dragon that dwell in the CD mines - they are released from the blasting team unit in a similar way to NG fanatics but have flame attacks) (god knows when this idea came to me!)
Chaos Dwarf Giant!!!! no, not just the damned plastic giant, but a Chaos Dwarf, in a bigger scale, carrying a very large spicky mace, mutation something to do with mining near or use of warpstone?)

Lastly lose links with HoC, Chaos Dwarfs should be out there on their own, it's ok that they trade stuff with other races for slaves or meat pies or whatever, and even lend the occasional hellcannon crew, but please don't bunch them in with HoC. Oh and lose the gimp look of the Hellcannon crew!

CD minis range has such a HUGE potential, as they can be designed from the ground up, they could be the next big thing. I would definately buy an army if they were done right.

Halelel
03-08-2007, 07:33
I agree with ICFTD on a lot of points. It probably would be better off to fully remove O&G completely from army lists. They are still part of the fluff , but not used in actual fighting.

I should clarify that I DONT want to see hobgoblins removed completely from Chaos Dwarf armies. I just don't want them to be a focal point, they should be minor additions to the army at most. I also DONT want the Earthshaker removed, just the rules re-worked.

I'd rather see Chaos Dwarfs as the "evil scientists / inventors" as another poster put it. I don't even mind the golems and contraptions and what ever else people think of. However, I'd like to see them remain as very rare productions, something that isn't common and ramptantly running around.

Further more, I agree that the whirlwind, tenderiser, and bazooka crews shouldn't be in the new book. They just scream of a "joke" that GW did for the heck of it. I'd rather they made the Chaos Dwarfs a whole slew of new warmachines and shooty weapons, IMO, :)

E-Dog
03-08-2007, 14:39
Why?

That makes no sense...

Because I'm a greedy chaos general.

Does the amount of choices chaos has now make sense .....its chaos, it dose'nt have to make sense.

Grunge
03-08-2007, 15:21
Take this as a personal wishlist (especially you, Mr. Gav) :

Lots of deamonic-mechanical-steamchaotic (as opposed to steampunk) stuff. I mean LOTS!

Mechanical mountruous mounts, mechanical hero options, mechanical ogre like creatures, collossus (HELL YEAH!).

Other than that, keep them an elite army and keep away of the marauder look. Special rules for their magic would be cool too, as they are not naturally 'supposed' to be messing with it. This is cheese fluff-wise.

Army constitution should be kept the same keeping only the Black Orcs (maybe with some diferences here and there) of the O&G stuff and hobgoblins too ofcourse. There should be another elite like unit (Immortals) similar to the Ironbreakers (really tough. i mean REALLY). Changes should be made to some warmachines and more should be implemented, aswell as more Special and rare choices for those mechanical thingies i mentioned before.

Bubble Ghost
03-08-2007, 15:26
Chaos dwarfs should keep the big hats only if a clown car chariot is released, the earthshaker becomes a human cannonball launcher and heroes have the option of seltzer bottles as magic items, just to make sure the tone is consistent. Otherwise, ditch the damn things.

On the constructive side, I'd like to see a railway system in their background, huge steampunk engines to pull all that ore back to Zharr-Naggrund.

zak
03-08-2007, 21:20
I would like to see a move away from the steam-mechanical element. I prefer to see more deamon bound contraptions. Part deamon-part machine similar to the possessed in 40k. These would be a mixture of close combat and ranged attack options. I would actually like to see very few Chaos Dwarves and only have them as elite units within the army. As a previous poster said, the Black Orc rebellion took it's toll. I would also like to see the riding of beats removed as they did look silly.
I really hope GW remake this army and reintroduce it as a main army again.

Urgat
03-08-2007, 22:52
Mmmmh... I don't know if I would want the O&G gone, but I'd want it treated differently:
1) the black orc crisis should probably have taught them something
2) the nemesis crown fluff might be a start so to "link" the O&G and the CD in some other, more... dunno, like an exchange relationship as opposed to a master/slave one. They do provide Grimgor (a Black Orc, and, considering his very nature, one that would remind the CD of what happened with BO) with weapons. So now, some O&G units available as mercenary units. Well BO, at least, gobs can be slaves, after all, that's already more or less what they are in an orc army anyway.

And sorry for the technology haters, but IMHO steam (or demonic) mechanical stuff fits perfectly with CD. I'd like the Lamassu and Great Taurus gone (I can see why they're here, but they just don't fit with the army imho), and have mechanical, demon powered machines instead (animated statues of Great Taurus, golems, etc). No kolossus thing tho, too big, and the description is lame (sorry, my opinion). I'd rather have a kind of smaller, 40k sized dreadnought (something like the goblin one from Rackam iirc), with a profile equivalent or marginaly superior to the large base units ( trolls, ashubti or whatever you spell that, well, you get the idea).
All the nasty artillery stuff should stay, but I'm not too fond of ballistas for them (not any more than I am for regular dwarfs to have them or catapults, but whatever), they should have stuff that go "bang!", not "tchung!".
Maybe some kind of black (evil) anvil similar to the reg dwarfs, too (hey, long ago, they used to be reg dwarfs, they're still good blacksmith, so I doubt that knowledge has been forsaken).
The rest can stay, with adjustements to costs, and I don't see anything else I'd really want to add.

itcamefromthedeep
04-08-2007, 03:18
Maybe some kind of black (evil) anvil similar to the reg dwarfs, too (hey, long ago, they used to be reg dwarfs, they're still good blacksmith, so I doubt that knowledge has been forsaken).

Since someone else opened THAT can of worms:

-Altar of Hashut: This stone altar is used as a focus for the magical energy of a High Priest of Hashut. It consists of a stone dais on top of a magical forge used in the binding of demons into weapons of power, and is circled by the petrified remains of several powerful High Priests of ages past. The Altar, guards, and any High Priest with them are treated as a war machine, except that the Altar cannot be moved during the course of the battle. The altar and its “crew” are considered a large target for the purposes of drawing line of sight to and from the Altar.
While using the Altar of Hashut, the range of all spells cast by the High Priest is extended by 12". ?
The High Priest may cast all his spells with an additional power die, rolled along with the other casting dice. This power die is in addition to the normal power dice generated by the Chaos Dwarf army. This additional power die may cause an Irresistible Force result or a Miscast as normal.

forthegloryofkazadekrund
04-08-2007, 08:41
chaos dwarfs have nothing to do with dwarfs, they are just very short humans warped by the power of chaos.:rolleyes:

we dwarfs do not aknowledge them as being dwarfs :mad: and dont know where they come from and would like to see all dwarf references taken out





berek the red
The fortress of Kazad Ekrund

Urgat
04-08-2007, 09:04
Yeah, and we orcs would like to see our best lads not created by Chaos Dwarfs. We all have our problems, live with it :p

Huw_Dawson
04-08-2007, 09:10
A Chaos Dwarf army list - which really should be Deep Dwarves, as they have nothing to do with Chaos - should be based off the dwarf list. So, we're looking at:

Lord of the Deep
High Priest
Thane (Although a better name maybe?)
Priest
Master Engineer (Although a better name maybe?)
Warriors (These have steel helmets)
Ancients (THESE have big hats, to reflect their awsomeness!)
Blunderbusseers (No +1 to hit like regular dwarven handguns, but the ability to shoot twice at a unit without penalty)

After this, I'm no expert at whats in the army list, and this is also seemingly the most likely to change. I would like to see:

1) Cheap Hobgoblin infantry.
2) Three powerful war machines (Earthshaker cannon is one, Hellcannon (SOC one) is another)
3) Golems in rare choices (All rare choices other than golems should be suitably expensive to encourage golems rather than gunline armies)

Three kinds of golem:
Flesh Golems: Reconsituted bits of human/dwarf powered by steam. Very scary.
Iron Golems: Massive Iron constructs, damn near impossible to kill with ranged weaponry or magic.
Storm Golem: Expensive, but flings lightning bolts around like nobody's buisness. If you roll a one to hit though, BOOM! Bad stuff happens to the poor engineer that's controling this golem from afar.

Flesh golems should be 2 per rare choice.

That's it, folks. :p
- Huw

Krankenstein
04-08-2007, 09:27
What attracted me to Chaos Dwarfs in the first place was the ”Babylonians with black powder” image, so that is the most important thing too me.

Anyway, I second:

Immortals
Exit vanilla orcs and goblins, Hobgoblins are enough
New Sneaky Git gimmicks

evil_mr_woo
04-08-2007, 14:22
Right thanks for the ideas guys and gals and sorry for my poor use of prose but for the guy whod like to see full stops id rather see a million pounds on my gaming table lol anyhoos back to the point in hand.
for core choices
chaos dwarf axemen
chaos dwarf blunderbusses
chaos dwarf chosen of hashut (the rackham minis)(follow the rules for dwarf miners)
special choices
chaos dwarf imortals
bull centaurs
chaos dwarf fire spitters (follow the rules for skaven warpfire throwers)
rocket launchers (follow the rules for the new hellstorm rocket launcher)
rare choices
kolosus
earthshaker cannon
hellcannon
chaos dwarf steamtank chariot thing
Daemons
Stone Golems
Fire Golems
Iron Golems
Brass Bull
characters
Chaos Dwarf Lord
Chaos Dwarf Sorcerer Lord
Chaos dwarf hero
chaos dwarf sorcerer
magic items and equipment
Anvil of hashut chaos dwarf sorcerer lord only.
When the chaos dwarf strikes the anvil he may choose one of three spells
1.earthquake choose a unit that unit must pass an iniatiative test or is knocked down untill after its next movement phase
2.fissure choose a unit that unit suffers d6 strength 5 hits no save as an underwater stream becomes super heated and scolds the unit to death.
3.Eruptian nominate a point on the table and place the big template form the boxset everything covered receives a strength 7 hit no normal saves as the molten lava melts armour flesh et al
I havent put casting values on these as theyre only ideas at the mo but what do you all think?
power familiar
warrior familiar
spell familiar

right thats about it for now any ideas for a model for a kolosus or golems and rules ideas for these would be good too ok thanks people.

wallacer
09-08-2007, 03:50
I apologise for going momentarily off topic, but for anyone interested in the new CD book, you may want to check out this rumour on the Chaos Dwarf Online forum:

http://www.chaos-dwarfs.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=743

Anyway, back on topic... As a general rule I dislike steam punk, but conceptually I think it works well for CD and should be reflected in their army (Kollossus, nifty guns etc).

I also would like to see them divorced from Chaos. Fair enough Hashut is a Chaos God, but then so is Khaine, The Great Horned Rat etc and nobody seems to think they should be somehow integrated more into the regular Chaos forces. Keep CD separate, and make sure Hashut is a clearly separate entity from the main Chaos powers, along the lines of Khaine and The Great Horned Rat.

It would be nice if their priests had the ability to enslave Demons. That would make for a very interesting army on the table and is justified fluff-wise since after the Black Orc rebellion they would have been looking for ways to bulk up their armies that didn't rely on Greenskins.

They definitely need some elite infantry (immortals or whatever GW choose to call them).

For the record I think the big hats look comical and silly, but I can't see any reason for GW not to include them on a sprue for those who do like them (or maybe just have them for heroes or elite troops).

The main thing is to get an army book (see link above) and some support from GW. That is what I want the most for CD.

loveless
09-08-2007, 04:53
First off - every time I see something about the Chaos Dwarf army...I want them to make it b/c it really fits (in my mind) what I want in a fantasy army.

Crazy evil steam and soul powered machines, golems, colossi, and brooding guys in ridiculous outfits (big hats and all)

If they keep the mechanical craziness and such, I will most certainly create a Chaos Dwarf army.

To whoever mentioned the thought of "Deep" instead of "Chaos"...

...I like the sound of it! But they're too established as "Chaos" Dwarfs - I mean, just look at the BRB. Ah well.

soots
09-08-2007, 06:32
Big Hats, Big Guns. Bad Attitude.

Immortals. Duel weilding scimitar (extra hw), no armor, extra attack per wound (ala bone giant) 5+ parry rule. cool.
Blunderbusses.
CDs armed to teeth as per usual
No black orcs.
Hobgoblins only.
Deathrocket, earthshaker.
Golems.
Bull Centaurs.
Bombers (globadiers)

Can anyone give me a run down of what the collosus was?

Dr Death
09-08-2007, 09:47
What attracted me to Chaos Dwarfs in the first place was the ”Babylonians with black powder” image, so that is the most important thing too me.

That for me is possibly the most important point- that Chaos Dwarves retain those two qualities which have so characterised them. I think the hats and general proportions of the chaos dwarf models could be made less exaggerated, but they do have to stay.

I'm not sure i can really add anything to this conversation since more learned souls than i in the matter of the Dawi-Zharr have already spoken, so instead i'm going to use this post simply to throw my support behind a few notions.

I think loosing the Lammasu and Great Taurus in favour of 'steampunk' would be a grave mistake. A balance between the almost Bolshevik Russian state of industrialisation and the more sinister 'dark powers' aspect of the chaos dwarves has to be struck. The Lammassu and Great Taurus are very much part of the latter side of them and so should not be lost (certainly not for such a trite reason as dwarves dont look good riding things).

While Chaos Dwarves are undoubtedly the most 'steampunk' of all the warhammer races, i do not think that should be allowed to dominate the image unchecked. Chaos Dwarves are ultimately about the dwarves and their slaves rather than any number of steam powered, demon possessed engines they may have at their disposal. Most of such engines would be impractical and useless in battle anyway, no matter how spikey their aesthetic. What good's an oil rig in battle?

Chaos Dwarf armies should be mainly about the 'masters and slaves', in a similar kind of mix to how Chaos Space Marines appear in Lost and the Damned armies. I agree with all the people who talked about getting rid of all greenskins except Hobgoblins since that seems entirely accurate and also stops cross contamination. The suggested inclusions like the immortals and the kollossus i also support. None the less, slaves should be a major part of the 'newstyle' Chaos Dwarves.

Dr Death

Jedi152
09-08-2007, 10:06
I'd love them to be more evil and twisted, and less funny looking. Chaos is evil and destructive, but it's also random, and full of infighting. CD should be evil with order and industry. They've got the knowhow to make evil weapons of death, and the forges to make them...

I'd love to see them: keep hobgoblin slaves, and maybe add gnoblar slaves; have more items/machinery bound with daemons; keep the hats - they've become a symbol of the CD, and it'd be sad to lose them; lose the comedy big noses and tusks.

The thing i'd like to see most? Make them less red. I'm surprised there wasn't a blood red shortage when the 'Eavy Metal team painted them.

loveless
09-08-2007, 12:29
Random morning thought:

Since dwarfs looks ridiculous riding things - what if they put a standing platform on the Great Taurus and/or Lammasu? You know, similar to how a Dwarf Lord stands on Shieldbearers - except a platform instead of a shield and a monster instead of 2 dwarfs.

Dr Death
09-08-2007, 13:05
Well a standing platform may be troublesome on a flying monster but yes, there are other ways- a throne for instance rather than a conventional saddle.

Dr Death

loveless
09-08-2007, 13:33
lol, my bad...I had erased the flying part in my mind - it's been too long since I've seen either monster

King Thurgun
09-08-2007, 13:48
chaos dwarfs have nothing to do with dwarfs, they are just very short humans warped by the power of chaos.:rolleyes:

we dwarfs do not aknowledge them as being dwarfs :mad: and dont know where they come from and would like to see all dwarf references taken out





berek the red
The fortress of Kazad Ekrund

My compatriot from Kazad Ekrund is completely correct! Oh all you silly Umgi, with your crazy theories. Let us Dwarves set the records straight.

There has never been, nor are there, nor will there ever be, a race known as the "Chaos Dwarves". The very thought of it is contradictory! Dwarves are resistant to Chaos, unlike all those beardless elves and flimsy men, and so such a thing could never happen! Besides, as we all know, these Chaos Dwarves are suposedly consumed by greed, and we Dwarves are known for our frugal, simple natures. These "Chaos Dwarves" have also been known to produce insane inventions designed solely for the purpose of slaugtering their enemies cruelly and painfully. Again, Dwarves would never do this! We Dwarves only use level-headed machines to protect ourselves, such as the Goblin Hewer or the Flame Cannon.

Aside from all that, there are no reliable records on the subject of these "pointy hat Dwarves". No records of them exist in the Dammaz Kron, and, let me ask you, have you ever seen one on the field of battle? Of course you haven't! You probably just mistook them for older edition Dwarf models. Its alright manlings, we know you have poor long term memories. Just take it from us, the Dwarven Inquisition. We have the longer beards.

So just stop worrying about these farcical "Chaos Dwarves", and pay attention to more immediate concerns. After all, if you keep looking around for and talking to people about these evil, mythical Dwarves, you might not notice more pressing problems you have!

Like angry Dwarven inquisitors outside your house in the middle of the night with a flame cannon.:skull:

Have a nice day now Umgi!

WarSmith7
09-08-2007, 19:43
Well, i've been working on a Dawi-Zharr list for quite some time and will be reluctantly positng it so (hopefully me and ultimate nagash can put our heads together and make one list we can agree on, one list to rule them all!)

Heres a quick break down of what I got.

Lords:

Immortal Prince:
Noble-born CD warrior, answer only to thier Sorcerer lords. Like the Immortals unit, has the "Immortal Fortitude rule" which states that he can only be wounded on a wounding roll of 4+. If included in your army, may field one additional unit of Irontusks (think longbeards, vets.).

Venerable Sorcerer:
Dawi Zharr sorcerer who has survived a very long time despite the curse of stone. Level 3-4 wizard. Must be givin mechano-legggings or ride a dread palanquin (daemon-bound metal mount, almost like a throne with legs as I see it). Awesome Presence, all chaos dwaf units within 12" may re-roll failed psychology checks.

Temple Warden: (Takes up a Lord and Rare Choice)
A massive bull centaur that stands as tall as an Ogre. Melee monster. If included in your army, you may field one unit of Bull Centaurs as a Core choice. Decent movment, terror.

Lammasu: (takes up a Lord and Rare Choice)
A Sorcerer that has been blessed by hashut for some enginmatic reason (proven himself to be exception in devotion, sorcery, etc.). Has been Transformed into a giant beast that combines the fore-torso of a lion, the flanks of a bull and giant feathered wings. It's face is that of a maned chaos dwarf. Level 3-4 wizard. Flight. Has MR2, if you successfully dispel a spell that targget the Lammasu, during your next magic phase, the Lammasu gains a number of bonus power dice equal to the ammount used for the spell that was dispelled agaisnt him.

Indomitable Sorcerer: (takes up a Lord and Rare Choice)
A venerable sorcerer who has bound his soul into a construct shell, losing , much of his magical prowess but escaping the curse of stone. Level 1-2 Wizard. Terror. Melee monster.

Heros:

Enforcer:
Vertarn Dawi-Zharr warrior, best hero leadership. May be upgraded to Immortal Enforcer (to represent Noble or highborn commanders). May carry the Battle Standard.

Taskmaster:
Veteran Dawi-Zharr warrior who is in charge of Hobgoblin, slave, foreign relations. Cruel and wicked who hate thier position that others shun. All hobgoblins within 6" may re-roll failed panic tests and gain +1 leadership when attempting to rally. Unlike other Chaos dwarfs, may join hobgoblin units and will make them immune to psychology, but if a result of 1 is rolled on a power squabble check (see, hobgoblin version of animosity or bicker), the Taskmaster will suffer a wound.If included in your army, one unit of DoW Ogres may occupy and equal number of special slots as they would normally occupy rare slots instead (meaning, you could field a unit of maneaters for 2 special slots or a unit of leadleldblechers for a single special slot, tec.).

Sorcerer:
Level 1-2 wizard. Inspiring presence, any unit he joins may re-roll failed Psychology checks.

Felforger:
A Dawi-Zharr sorcerer who specializes in the binding and maintaining of daemonic constructs and warmachines. Level 1-2, but only uses the lore of binding (a lore used sole for buffing Daemonic Constructs.) all daemonic Constucts within 6" do not test for rampaging against friendly units when thier crews are all gone. If general, this ability extends to 12".

Hobgoblin Khan.
The Leaders of the Hobgoblin tribes unit the control of the Dawi Zharr. Decent melee hero, dirt cheap, has access to special magic item list known as Waagh relics. Any hobgoblin unit he joins does not test for power squabble (see hobgoblin special version of animosity or bicker) and will not fear units they dont outnumber 2 to 1. May carry a tribal backbanner, which will function like a battle standard, but only for units he joins.

Core:

1+ Chaos Dwarf Warriors:
The core of every Dawi-Zharr army, though few in number, they should always be represented. excellent heavy troops and a single unit may be upgraded to Irontusks, who are hardend dwarf warriors. Irontusks occupy a special choice rather than core.

Chaos Dwarf Destroyers:
Chaos Dwarf Warriors armed with the Deadly, abit short ranged, Blunderbus. Heavy troops. Like warriors, have the option for Irontusks.

Hobgoblin Warriors:
Cheap static res units, like goblins. prone to running away, but hey, there cheap and disposable! What more could a Dawi- Zharr commanded hope for when seeking to dramaticly expand his armies size?

Hobgoblin Prowlers:
Skrimishers, mixed unit of hobgoblins and wolfhounds (think wolves trained for tracker and fighting rather than mounts).Scouts, armed with bows, may carry posioned arrows. Cannot have more units of Prowlers than Hobgob warriors.

Hobgoblin Wolfpack:
A new unit type, Skrimishing Fast Calvary (which would allow the whole unit to fire thier ranged weapons). Light, fast calvary armed with bows, mainly a harassment unit. Forerunners, meaning they get one free move before the battle starts. Expensive. May not have more units of Hobgob wolfpacks than hobgob warriors.

Hobgoblin Worgriders:
hobgoblin heavy calvery, armed with heavy armor and lances. anyone who has read up on mongol tactics and army organization will know where there here. Expensive, still prone ot break and run. May not have more untis of Worgriders than hobgob wolfpacks.

Specials:

Immortals:
Tough as nails Dawi-Zharr, pocess the Immortal Fortitude rule, a 4+ save and are armed with halberds. Immune to psychology and Stubborn. Expensive, 2A each.

Chaos Dwarf Sappers:
Chaos Dwarf combat engineers who hastily construct battlefield fortifications and hinderences. Skrimishes armed with blunderbuses and great weapons (which give them the high strength needed to smash artillery [which would fall under the charge of a real life sapper]). Small units 5-10. Each unit bought may Scout for free if your army included hobgob prowlers (which they use to help find advance paths, and must deply within 6" of) or may pay to scout. Each unit of sappers bought allows you to roll a d6 for them before the battle to see what they have constructed before the battle, may roll anything from a minefield, hidden trench, difficult terrain, berm or foxholes.

Sneaky Gits:
Skrimishing Hobgoblins, ninja-esque. Carry poisoned throwing knives and twin daggers. Negate ranks like normal infantry. Dirty fighters, may kill muscians and standard bearers first and gain an additional +1 when attack enemy flanks and rears. Lurkers,Do not deploy with army, instead, have a chance to show up latter on any table edge. Cannot have more units of Sneaky Gits than hobgob warriors. May hit and run, meaning that even if they win combat, they may choose to flee, but will auto rally next turn and may move and shoot.

Now is where the crazier stuff enters play, the Dawi- equaivelent of modern day armour.

Sons of Hashut:
Ogre Sized and biped shpaed Iron Golems. May field one to two per special choice. escourted and goaded into battle by chaos dwarf bounders. good armour, 4 wounds, strength 5, unbreakable. Like all Daemonic constructs, are difficult to control and are prone to malfunctioning (rampage). Each combat turn, rolls atrillery die for number of attacks (gains half the result of attacks, for a maximum of 5 attacksn and minimum of 1), this allows for the misfire result to show up to represent the construct malfunctioning.

Barrage Behemoth:
Insect or Arachnid-like Iron golem. Abdomin is mounted by a small turrent which contains three barrels facing opposite directions. Each turn, generates d3 shots which are fired like canon shots (though only Strength 6 and only cause a d3 wounds) which may be fired at the same unit or multiple targets. Like all daemonic constructs, prone to malfunction and hard to control.

Death Shrieker:
Iron Golem in the shape of a squat quadruped.Back mounts rocket platform. Fires like stone thrower only it scatters until a "Hit" result is scored on the scatter die or it rolls off the table. Uses large blast template. Like all daemonic constructs, prone to malfunction and difficult ot control.

Flame Belcher:
Iorn Golem that looks very Similiar to a Son of Hashut. Has massive boiler mounted on back with various tubes and gauges that connect to the golems forearms, chest, head, where a large nozzil is mounted. Spews great gouts of burning tar and oil. Treat as breath weapon. May choose to not move and instead gout flame at a large distance by rolling the artillery die then place the flame template.

Rares:

Hellcannon (of course)

Harbringer of Doom:
Gigantic Howitzer cannon, used to Fire "vanguards", which are small, 25mm based Iron golems. Fires like stone thrower, except has a maximum range of 36". Vanguard are often heavily damaged or destroyed when fired, but if they survive the shot, they are rampaging, daemon-bound golems behind enemy lines! Comes with 3 vanguards at start of battle, with option to purchase 2 more. When runs of out vanguards, may fires like normal stone thrower.

Bull Cetaurs:
Chaos Dwarf Heavy Calvary: Slow, only move 6", but flee and pursue 3d6. 2 Wounds each.

Great Taurus:
Huge (mounted on Chariot base) Iron golem in the visage of a bull. Causes impact hits, terror, fast. No wings.

Shadowfangs:
Chaos Dwarf Snipers. Carry soulrender rifles. small unit, 3-5, skrimishers. weapons function like S4 bolt throwers, armour piercing. Deadsights allow the Shadowfangs to be treated like they are always on higher ground (meanign they can effectively always see enemy units). Any unit that suffers casualties from shadowfangs must test for panic.

Anyway, that's my list in a nutshell. Obviously, this is very condensed, with none of the army special rules present or magic item lists or stats.

I'll be posting all that stuff soon though, just gotta double check the spelling, consolidate all my notes. Adjust a few point costs (always having to do that, playtesting sucks), finish out the magic item list (need to clean up the wording on some items and make up some decent names).

If anyone recognizes some of this stuff (though alot has changed), it's because it used to be on the GW boards (i'm neofish). Yeah, I kinda got involed with it there and sorta highjacked the thread and posted a ton of ideas as to how I saw the CD and how I imagined how they could be (I even think I lead to the OP getting pissed off and leaving because I wasn't content with unit names such as "Bull centaur lord" and how the list had like no freaking Daemonic constructs save for the hellcannon, I mean, he didnt even have Zharr Enginseers before I came along [although, they have mutated into Felforger now in my list]).

Anyway, i'm rambling, i'll stop now, I just get so worked up and excieted when I hear the prospect of designing the CD warhammer army.

soots
10-08-2007, 00:27
Some nice ideas... lots of overboard ideas :)

I like the idea of mixed wolves and hobgoblins skirmishing around. Though would be hard to line up in combat etc.

WarSmith7
10-08-2007, 01:03
Some nice ideas... lots of overboard ideas :)

I like the idea of mixed wolves and hobgoblins skirmishing around. Though would be hard to line up in combat etc.

Sne me a PM when you get chance, i'm eager to know what people think is far to over the top or down right unplayable. I mean, it's just me and a friend play testing everything, so all of it is kinda done in a vaccum, outside input= good thing (and much appreciated).

Grand Warlord
10-08-2007, 04:44
i like it lol ... i might even sacrifice my witch hunter themed empire lol the only experience i have with CDs is the Ravening Hordes, so anything I think is better than that.