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WhiteStar
23-08-2005, 05:52
Hello! I was accidentally hit by an interesting rules query.

There are several different "Movement spells", for example Vanhaels Dance, Unseen Lurker, Lupus The Wolfen Hunts and the Wild Call. My question is: Can I cast such a charge spell on a fleeing unit?

Your natural reaction is ofcourse "That's stupid..why would you?", but I do have some facts to back up my question.

Due to not having access to the BRB last night I can only comment on "Wild Call" from the Beasts Of Chaos armybook. It says, to be precise, "may make a normal charge move". Nothing about having to be able to charge under normal circumstances or cannot be used on fleeing units.

How do we interpret "may make a normal charge move"? I interpret it as saying "May make a normal charge move (even if normally not allowed to)." The word "may" tells me that it could be interpreted as if a unit that is fleing is indeed allowed to make a charge move because of the power of the spell.

I could ofcourse be horribly wrong on this. Any rules clarification or Q&A making a lear ruling on this would be helpful!

Thanks!

Alco Engineer
23-08-2005, 06:14
The fact that the word "normal" is in there suggests to me that you wouldn't "normally" be able to charge. As for vanhel's it wouldn't affect anything other than Ghouls (as nothing else breaks) and you can move the unit 8" (but I wouldn't consider the unit to no onger be broken). I'm not positive on the wording (don't keep my books at work) but it would be interesting to see if you could charge with broken ghouls....hmmmmm.

Festus
23-08-2005, 07:44
Hi

To my understanding, a *normal charge move* is just that: A move that fulfills all the *normal* requirements of a charge and works the same *normal* way.

So the fleeing unit is not eliglible to benefit from this IMO.

Greetings
Festus

WhiteStar
23-08-2005, 08:40
Yes but if you see the situation this way:

They are fleeing, but may make a normal charge move.

They are fleeing, but once you cast Wild Call - they may make a normal charge move. I can't put it any more clearer than that.

I don't know how the other spells mentioned are worded on this part, so would like some feedback on those. How do the rest of you feel on this?

Yanos
23-08-2005, 08:54
Umm, I gotta agree with Festus; this seems too much like trying to justify an auto-rally for low-Ld troops :(.

Vanhels (http://uk.games-workshop.com/vampirecounts/magic-cards/assets/vampirecounts-magic-cards.pdf) can only be cast on an Undead unit, so Fleeing will never apply to them (Ghouls are not Undead). We can discount that one.

Interestingly, I can see nothing in The Wolf Hunts (http://uk.games-workshop.com/chronicles/magic/assets/revised-lores.pdf) to stop you doing what you've suggested, as a Fleeing unit is still an eligible target within the rules of the spell :eyebrows:.

Likewise Unseen Lurker (http://uk.games-workshop.com/chronicles/magic/assets/shadow-magic-cards.pdf) :eyebrows: :eyebrows:

Yanos
23-08-2005, 08:58
So I can't see anything that'd stop you pulling these off; it simply seems slightly cheesy :cheese:. Although in the sense that it allows you to instill your troops with Wolfy Hunting spirit or Unseen Lurkishness, there are those who may see it as a fluffy use of the spell(s) :D :eyebrows: :confused: !

Someone help me out here! I'm just confusing myself!!

PANZERBUNNY
23-08-2005, 08:58
hell I haven't even played this edition of fantasy and I'd have to say that, no, you cant.
Just because it doesn't say you cant doesn't mean you can. Its actually more then likely the other way around when it comes to vague rules.
Are broken units able to move towards the enemy? I doubt it, so you wouldn't even be able to use vanhels on a unit of broken ghouls unless you were moving them furthur away.(even if u could use it on them)

Yanos
23-08-2005, 09:04
Good argument against! Here's another I just thought of:

Fleeing units can never be in combat, correct? They have to flee from charges etc. So as these movement spells say nothing regarding rallying the effected unit, they cannot be moved into combat using them.

Phew :D .

Now can anyone find us the text saying fleeing units can never be in combat?

Incidentally, PANZERBUNNY makes a damn good point as well, you can't move routed troops towards unemy units :) (Well kinda. The wording's different but the same effect is true. Read all about it here (http://uk.games-workshop.com/chronicles/commentary-fleeing/1/)).

WhiteStar
23-08-2005, 09:40
Unless: the spells confers the unit the ability to make a normal charge. If cast on a fleing unit it gives them the ability to make a normal charge move because of the spell.

Especially Wolf Hunts simply states that the unit moves towards an enemy it can see. If the distance is enough it will count as a charge. Nothing that actually restricts the spell from being used on fleeing units.

Yanos
23-08-2005, 10:20
That's true, apart from what's stated above by myself and PANZERBUNNY (I'm not shouting his name, I've just learned to reproduce users' names accurately or they get annoyed :D!). The rules concerning Fleeing troops preclude you moving them into any sort of combat. Unfortunately we can take either the wording of the spell or the fleeing rules as the decider in this case...

...although...

Aha! The wordings for Wolf and Unseen both state that normal rules for charging apply if the effected unit is moved into contact with an enemy unit. The normal rules for a Fleeing unit being in contact with an enemy are...it Flees! The sequence of events would therefore be:

1. Cast spell successfully on Fleeing unit.
2. Unit moves 8" or 2D6" forwards toward a visible enemy.
3. Unit contacts enemy.
4. Unit flees 2D6" or 3D6" away from the enemy, following the Fleeing guidelines (http://uk.games-workshop.com/chronicles/commentary-fleeing/1/).

WhiteStar
23-08-2005, 11:10
Although...It COULD be argued that since it counts as charging because of the effect of the spell it overrules the fact that the unit was fleeing before the spell was successfully cast on the target unit. And with normal charging rules, I think this one refers to striking order and weapon bonuses.

Anyways, I'm not one to abuse this - but I think it would be fitting for a future Q&A to stop any potential rulesbenders from using this. But on the other hand, I don't deem it all too unfluffy to magically send a unit towards the enemy... I mean there is a spell for automatically rallying the unit - why not a higher difficulty spell that both rallies and enables to charge?

On the other hand. If you autorally a unit with Oxen Stands, can you then charge it using Lurker, Wild Call or Wolfen Hunts? Just a thought, there wouldn't then be a hinder for the unit in the form of a fleeing unit fleeing in landing in contact with the enemy. How about if you rally a unit that isn't then allowed to charge on the same turn according to the normal rules, can I charge it using a spell?

This could make for a potential weapon. Fleeing a charge, then on your turn you rally (normally or using oxen stands) whereafter you simply cast a movement spell to countercharge.

Avian
23-08-2005, 11:37
Guys, you are conveniently forgetting the part in the rulbook that deals with fleeing units, specifically where it mentions that they can only flee. :rolleyes:




This could make for a potential weapon. Fleeing a charge, then on your turn you rally (normally or using oxen stands) whereafter you simply cast a movement spell to countercharge.
Sure, you don't see it happening very often and it's a bit risky, but great when it works.
Most notably, if your unit flees from a charge, fails to rally, flees again and is then stopped by the Oxen Stands, it's probably too far away from the enemy unit for the 2D6" move of the Wolf Hunts to reach them (particularly since the things the Wolf hunts's work on generally have a 3D6 flee distance).
And of course the spell might get dispelled.

I have had units rally by itself and then cast Hand of Gork on it several times to charge something. Quite often the opponent is keen on dispelling this attempt.

Yanos
23-08-2005, 12:12
Forgetting :confused: ? It's the crux of my argument :).

Avian
23-08-2005, 12:16
Really? If so you were rather vague.

And in any case you made another mistake in your post #11, fleeing units aren't even allowed within 4" of an enemy unit.

T10
23-08-2005, 12:26
As Avian said: fleeing units flee :)

That pretty much means that any fleing unit subject to a an "unspecified" movement spell such as Unseen Lurker or Steed of Shadows would get their move but behave as if they were fleeing, e.g. moving towards the nearest table edge.

Unseen Lurker specifies 8" of movement, so the fleing unit moves (flees) 8".

Steed of Shadows allows the model to fly, so it flies (flees) 3d6".

-T10

Yanos
23-08-2005, 12:27
I know this, it's in the link to the Fleeing guidelines I posted. I didn't write post #11. :confused:

Avian
23-08-2005, 12:29
Okay, so it's #10...
(the one with the statement that fleeing units could move into contact with enemy units, which they aren't allowed to)

Yanos
23-08-2005, 12:35
Fair dos, as examples go that doesn't really work. Ahem.

My (vague) point was that the unit would never get into a combat that way. It's a weird situation, and one I'd hope would never come up :cheese:

WhiteStar
23-08-2005, 12:37
See...the thing I'm asking here...and I know that fleeing units aren't allowed to charge, is, do the spells override the fact that they are fleeing? If you cast a spell that say that you may charge on a unit that is fleeing, then does it infact say that the unit no longer is fleeing - but charging. I don't think that we should interpret the rules for a "normal charge" too steeply, according to the rules for a normal charge you should decalre it in the beginning of the movement phase etc.

Infact, the paragraph that say that fleeing units cannot charge is I believe under the section for fleeing and psychology - not charging. For the subject unit to be under the rules for "normal charging" it must be able to charge. If the rule states that the subject unit follows the rules for normal charging, then the spell allready assumes and indirectly states that you can charge. My interpretation, even if unusual and perhaps beardy, is that the spell allows you to charge no matter of your condition since you bide under the rules for charging and the spell allows you to make a charge if successfull. It works according to the normal rules for charging, but it is not a charge per se - it is a spell that counts as the unit charging. That's a deciding difference.

Yanos
23-08-2005, 12:41
But surely, despite it being the Psychology section, the bit you've just quoted still counts as the normal rules for chargers, which the spell stipulates?

EDIT: Ooo, 100th post in New Portent. Groovy :).

EDIT#2: Beg pardon Avian, didn't see your point first time round. Spot on about post #10 you were.

WhiteStar
23-08-2005, 12:49
Does it? "The normal rules for chargers" is a bit vague, but the fact that fleeing units aren't allowed to charge certainly belongs in the psychology section and not in the "charge" section which belongs to movement. As I allready stated one of the mentioned spells is not a normal charge, it is a spell that works like one but has differencies and therefor different than the normal charge.

Avian
23-08-2005, 12:55
See...the thing I'm asking here...and I know that fleeing units aren't allowed to charge, is, do the spells override the fact that they are fleeing?
Fleeing units can do two things:
1) Flee towards the nearest table edge
2) Attempt to rally (unless below 25%)

The spell description does not mention any further options, so you are limited to those two. :rolleyes:


This is very similar to the people who wanted instances that forces Panic test to apply to units which were Immune to Panic, because no exception was listed for them when it said you had to take a Panic test. That's not how it works. If you have an immunity then it doesn't have to say that the immunity applies each time the case comes up, it has to say that the immunity does NOT apply for it not to.

What you are trying to do is the same as declaring a charge with a unit that is fleeing.
In fact, the rules never say that you cannot do this, what it does say is that a fleeing unit can only flee, and you are attempting to make them do something else, which they can't.


EDIT: And the fleeing rules are in the combat section, not the psychology section...

Yanos
23-08-2005, 13:07
Well put.

WhiteStar, without seeing the wording for this other spell you mentioned, it's gonna be difficult to give a definite take on it one way or the other :( .

WhiteStar
23-08-2005, 17:11
Yeah...the Immunity thing is a nice example. But not quite the same. They are more directly related than this case with charging using a spell.

But the bottomline here still remains. I consider the spell a special case that overrules the normal situation. With panic tests it is far more simple, unīts immune are immune. Here you have spells that simply throw a unit into a charge and say that it works with the rules for a normal charge. You cannot simply say that restrictions for a normal charge apply since this is fundamentally a different thing. You cast a spell and move it according to the rules of the spell, if it bring the unit into contact it is considered a charge under normal rules. You never even declare the charge when using the spell, you simply move the unit into contact with the opponent. Therefor I think there is a considerable difference between charging with fleeing troops (which is forbidden), and simply moving them using a spell.

You normally don't move the troops during magic phase, so there isn't a pre-determined way to act. The rules for fleeing troops only state the reactions of fleeing troops during movement phase (and partially during combat with overruns etc.). There is nothing stating what you can and cannot do with fleeing troops during the magic phase (otherwise than mages cannot cast spells). My conclusion is that the spell allows you to manouvre fleeing troops during the magic phase. It is an effect that is bound to a spell - a spell. The effect of the spell is carried through as the rules for fleeing troops do not prohibit movement during the magic phase, some of you simply want to carry them over to the magicphase even though there simply aren't any rules that say that they do. It simply an effect that works during the magic phase and works in the same way (but yet again is different as I gave examples of) as the standard charge happening during the movement phase (which is illegal).

And let's keep ourselves to one gaming system here ;) . No rallying below 25% belongs to 40K...

PANZERBUNNY
23-08-2005, 20:29
I think its pretty clear that you cant move within 4" of an enemy and must flee. Magic wont override this unless it actualyl STATES it can do that...which..will never happen....they will never make a spell that can do that.

People are trying to stuff their argument between a fine crack in the rules, but really.....those few words..."fleeing units may only flee" really stamp any hope of abusing movement/charging spells.

Theres no way around it.

**** and to the above post.

You dont simply ignore the effects of what psychology you are under JUST because its the magic phase.
You simply cant charge or even move towards the enemy if u are already fleeing.
The spell allows you to make a normal charge if you are able. Since you are not...it fizzles..and you look silly for trying to cast a spell on a unit that cant use its effects heh

WhiteStar
24-08-2005, 03:38
Ok, I don't think these last few pages have taken us anywhere :) Rest this is indeed a very narrow path of reading between the lines, and one that will hopefully never occur in the game. Personally I have not done it or attempt too.

When it comes to the bottomline of them never making such a spell I really don't see why that could not happen, as it is almost the case with the current spells (see the last three pages). They allready have one spell that rallies your unit, and one that enables it to charge. Combining these effects clearly in a spell might not be as farfetched as you think.

PANZERBUNNY
24-08-2005, 04:07
Such a spell would be a high diff and casting I would assume because..well..rallying and THEN maing a charge is VERy useful...think of cavalry...man..rather disgusting to even think about heh

WhiteStar
24-08-2005, 06:38
Yeah...but you can still rally them with a spell and then charging with another. It would simply combine two spells into one and create an effect that is allready achievable in the magicphase.

Griefbringer
24-08-2005, 07:55
And let's keep ourselves to one gaming system here ;) . No rallying below 25% belongs to 40K...

BRB, page 75, under header "Rally test":

"A unit must have at least 25% of its original number of models surviving to be able to rally."

Avian
24-08-2005, 10:31
Such a spell would be a high diff and casting I would assume because..well..rallying and THEN maing a charge is VERy useful...think of cavalry...man..rather disgusting to even think about heh
Meh, normally units will rally in the rally phase on their own, without the help of a spell, so there is really no need for that part (which most of the time will only raise the casting cost needlessly).
And if they fail to rally, will flee too far away to be able to charge even if rallied in the magic phase.



You normally don't move the troops during magic phase, so there isn't a pre-determined way to act. The rules for fleeing troops only state the reactions of fleeing troops during movement phase (and partially during combat with overruns etc.). There is nothing stating what you can and cannot do with fleeing troops during the magic phase (otherwise than mages cannot cast spells).
Yes, there is. You open the rulebook and point to where it says that fleeing units can only flee. That is what fleeing units can do. It never says that fleeing units can only flee during the movement phase, it says that they can only flee. Period.

As I said, the fleeing rules are not in the Movement section at all, and units are quite capable of making flee moves in all phases of the game.

WhiteStar
24-08-2005, 15:34
I think this discussion has really come to an end :) I am now convinced that it isn't possible to charge a fleeing unit during the magic phase. But hey, some subjects are good to bring up so we all know of their possibility and how to react on them. I stand corrected :cool:

@Griefbringer, is that really so...I guess it hasn't been too much of an issue, but now I know. Weird... how could I have missed that one completely during these years of playing :confused:

Yanos
25-08-2005, 08:26
...@Griefbringer, is that really so...I guess it hasn't been too much of an issue, but now I know. Weird... how could I have missed that one completely during these years of playing :confused:...

It's one of those weird things :D. It's like how few people know or remember that reading a Dispel Scroll ends any spells that wizard has in play! Strangeness :chrome: (always wanted to use that smiley!).