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Joe Cool
02-08-2007, 22:18
An interesting situation came up in a recent game. I had a unit of cavalry, charged from rear by a lord on a dragon (US 7) and from front by a chariot (US 4). I fled a mighty 17", straight away from the dragon, which got me away from the dragon's charge distance and behind the charging chariot. This is how we played it, please correct if it went wrong:

Fleeing units are moved before charging units, and the flee movement would've brought the cavalry unit in contact with the chariot. Since the chariot is only US 4, the fleeing unit isn't destroyed when touching it, right? The flee roll was enough for the unit to move through the chariot behind it, so that's where it ended up. (Come to think of it, maybe the fleeing unit should've stopped when in contact with the chariot?) So, after flee movements, the charge movements. The dragon was out, but the chariot was not. However, now the chariot is charging a unit behind it. Since the charge was legal when declared, line of sight isn't needed anymore when moving chargers, right? If we played it right up to this moment, the situation is pretty clear: the chariot gets one free pivot during charge, so it just turns around and charges, and if the fleeing unit is still in range, it is destroyed. This is what happened.

BUT, if instead of the chariot there would've been a ranked infantry/cavalry unit with US 4 or less, and its charge movement after wheeling wouldn't have been enough to catch the fleeing unit, then the fleeing unit would've survived, EVEN IF IT FLED THROUGH A CHARGING UNIT! This is what we thought would happen, based on quick checking of the rules. Seems quite silly to me.

In a way, the point of all this was to complain about the direction of fleeing in 7th edition. In 6th the objective was to avoid enemy units, charging or not. In 7th, you flee directly away from the charging unit with highest US, even if it brought you in contact with another charging unit.

So, did we play the situation correctly? Any comments on our interpretation of the rules? Thanks for your input.

T10
02-08-2007, 22:57
The fleeing unit is moved before the chargers are moved. They therefore move over the chariot and stop at the best opportunity thereafter. The chariot does not destroy the unit in spite of having declared a charge against it. This is because it is the fleeing unit that is making the move and the US 4 chariot does not carry enough "weight" to immediately destroy it.

However, once it is time to move the charging units then the chariot will only need to pivot on the spot in order to point towards the fleing unit and then move towards it. I can only assume that this would bring it into contact with the unit, in which case it will successfully destroy the unit and proceed with its full charge distance.

Note that the chariot need only have line of sight to the unit when the charge is declared. If the unit flees out of the chariot's field of sight then this does not negate the charge: The chariot will simply need move to engage (destroy) the unit in a less straight-forward manner.

-T10

hiredgoonthug
03-08-2007, 03:04
The chariot fails its charge. You cannot manuever during a charge other than to wheel, thus, chariot cannot turn around and finish its charge.

lparigi34
03-08-2007, 03:12
Chariots don't need to wheel, they pivot on the spot, just as a free moving monster can do...

Steeve
03-08-2007, 03:38
BRB, pg 62, "Manoeuvring during a charge" states the need to see the target at the beginning of the charge.

Is the beginning of the charge Declare charges or Move chargers?

Also, BRB, pg. 21 "Failed Charge" allows for the possibility of a target unit fleeing out of range. So out of sight would be out of range, no?

T10
03-08-2007, 06:38
You will find that it makes no sense for the line of sight when the chariot starts moving to be a requirement. The rules for a failed charge require the chariot to move its normal move towards the fleeing unit, and it is quite conceivable that this will bring it into contact with them.

Out of sight means out of sight and not out of range, nor out of reach.

-T10

knightime98
03-08-2007, 07:26
Until a FAQ comes out, the RAW prevail (IMO).

Pg. 46, BRB - Fleeing Troops, last paragraph - "If an enemy unit successfully charges a unit that is already fleeing, the unit automatically declares and executes a flee reaction from the charge. The charge is then resolved as normal."

In other words, you can flee as many times as you have been charged. This is RAW.... Like I said, until they release a FAQ saying otherwise, it is straight forward....

T10
03-08-2007, 08:25
That's great, but what are you replying to?

The situation at hand is that a unit fleeing from one charge from two different units (a dragon and a chariot) is forced to move away from the larger charger and through the smaller one.

Repeated Flee! reactions are not a concern.

-T10

knightime98
03-08-2007, 09:58
The player that has a dragon and a chariot must choose which one charges first!

Note that the charging player chooses which one unit charges first in his charge order! Both units DO NOT charge at the same time! They may declare a charge at the same time but are moved separately and independently of one another.

In order, the defending player then declares his reaction from each charger.

Provided the Dragon charges first and the cavalry model blows their terror test then they must flee from the dragon. Now from the cavalry's new position they get another chance to flee from the 2nd charge of the chariot.

This is where the quote from the rules comes in as aforementioned above.

In essence, a fleeing unit will always be able to and MUST flee as a reaction to any charger thereby being able to flee multiple times as needed. Now of course, all the other rules for fleeing apply. Meaning that if the fleeing unit hits an enemy unit of unit strength 5 or more, impassable terrain, etc., it is then destroyed.

knightime98
03-08-2007, 10:10
As an afterthought, if the opponent with the Chariot charged it (meaning the chariot) first then the Cavalry would be in combat. Now that the cavalry are in combat, they would not need to test for the Dragon Charging it. The Cavalry unit now would be exempt from Psychology tests because of the chaos of battle.

mattjgilbert
03-08-2007, 10:54
Note that the charging player chooses which one unit charges first in his charge order! Both units DO NOT charge at the same time! They may declare a charge at the same time but are moved separately and independently of one another. I thought you moved chargers based on the order that they declared charges? That would mean that you cannot declare charges simultaneously, no?

Atrahasis
03-08-2007, 12:35
I thought you moved chargers based on the order that they declared charges? That would mean that you cannot declare charges simultaneously, no?

Correct.

The debate about how many times a fleeing unit can flee in a single phase has aged through several threads. It seems unreasonable that a unit should essentially have infinite movement.

shartmatau
03-08-2007, 14:19
You don't get infinite movement from fleeing.
You declare all charges
Make tests if necessary
then move all chargers.

Anyway that has nothing to do with this situation.
Dragon declares charge
Chariot declares charge
test for terror, fail or you chose to flee? Either way you ran.
You run through the the chariot.
The chariot had a legal charge when it was declared. It must simply pivot and move towards your horses. The chariot makes a full charge move through your cavalry and destroys them.
the Dragon, i assume, gets a failed charge move.

Negativemoney
03-08-2007, 15:10
shartmatau has it correct, Either way the Draggon will move its full distance as it is a flyer and they neve move at 1/2 when preforming a Flying charge.

Atrahasis
03-08-2007, 15:13
shartmatau has it correct, Either way the Draggon will move its full distance as it is a flyer and they neve move at 1/2 when preforming a Flying charge.
No one ever moves half of anything in a failed charge.

Negativemoney
03-08-2007, 15:17
Sorry their full move distance which is equal to half of the charge distance, for those that do not fly. My mistake

Ninsaneja
03-08-2007, 17:47
You only make a single reaction when being charged even by multiple units. If you flee, it does not matter who contacts you - if any charging unit contacts you, there you are gone.

eldrak
03-08-2007, 18:47
No one ever moves half of anything in a failed charge.
Except of course when you fail a charge in difficult terrain.

Atrahasis
03-08-2007, 19:00
Except of course when you fail a charge in difficult terrain.

No, you still move you full move, just that an inch in difficult terrain is the equivalent of 2 inches anywhere else.

hiredgoonthug
03-08-2007, 21:27
You only pivot on the spot when pusuing a broken enemy or when fleeing. You cannot pivot when charging. That is a manuever by every definition of the term, and is illegal DURING A CHARGE. Chargers are moved simultaneously, thus you would flee from the dragon at the same time the chariot is coming at you... (they'd be racing towards eachother with the enemy in the middle). The dragon would go it's full 20", the chariot would go its move range towards the starting position of the enemy.

If you still want to somehow claim you get a free pivot then at the very least the chariot would have to move towards the unit half of its charge move (before the enemy flees) and then pivot to move the rest of it's charge range when the enemy flees through it.

That is the only logical thing to do IMO.

I don't see ANYTHING in this huge rulebook that supports a claim of this free pivot during the charge, but in your defense I don't see anything that concretely supports my <u>opinion</u>.

This tactic of charging the front and rear would be a situation seen more with Fast Cavalry in the rear, in which case they would probably flee through the dragon and be killed by it having US>5 (or through the Fast Cav with US>5 even). Otherwise I don't see that unit dying, because I see this situation being unfair... You'd have a single model on horseback or another cheap and fast model that would run your units down. as they fled from something else...

Atrahasis
03-08-2007, 21:45
hiredgoonthug, you need to read the rules for multiple charges and the rules for chariots.

Charges move in charge declaration order, well after fleeing units are moved.
Chariots do indeed get a single pivot at any point during their charge move.

You're wrong, and if you haven't found the rules that prove it then you haven't looked very hard.

hiredgoonthug
04-08-2007, 02:36
So a chariot can pivot during a charge, eh? Interesting. Oh wait! Pivot doesn't mean "COMPLETELY TURN THE HELL AROUND!"

Pivot is to chariot, as wheel is to unit.

Page 62 of my special edition rulebook; Manoeuvering During a Charge. It clearly describes charging a unit in the chariot's arc of sight. If you cannot hit the unit by moving in A STRAIGHT LINE, you can pivot ONCE during the charge. They have to still abide by all rules governing charges, so they charge in their arc of site still, or they fail. This would apply to all units (except skirmishers WEEE!)

Charges move in a straight line towards the enemy unit, and get one wheel. They cannot turn completely around to charge the enemy, so why would chariots get to?

Fleeing units move in the compulsory movement phase, and yes, I apologize, chargers are moved in declaration order (as are the fleeing units). But this doesn't change the fact that fleeing enemies flee from the highest unit strength (the Dragon) and are now out of the Chariot's charge arc.

"You're wrong, and if you haven't found the rules that prove it then you haven't looked very hard."
I've just gone through the book to find my answers, where is your information coming from? You tell me to find the answers for YOU to be correct, but you haven't supplied them yourself. I'm trying to give you all of the info here. If I find you're right, and I ALMOST changed my mind on this, I would tell you so. I've been wrong before, quite a few times.

sulla
04-08-2007, 02:53
Charges move in charge declaration order, well after fleeing units are moved.
Chariots do indeed get a single pivot at any point during their charge move.



So just to make sure i'm on the same page as you, are saying that your belief is that;

Since the chariot declared a legal charge,
and there is no restriction on how far a chariot can pivot to enact a charge,
it could pivot to complete a legally declared charge on something that would not be legal if he had to 're-declare' a charge at that point...

Interesting rules connundrum. I'm sure it was never intended to be this way, but that's hardly the be all and end all of rules discussions is it?

shartmatau
04-08-2007, 03:42
thats exactly the point sulla. The charge is declared, the unit being charged is in LOS and range of the Chariot. Then it is not a failed charge. When the fleeing unit moves it doesn't matter where it moves to, out of sight, behind another unit, on top of a mountain, as long as the charging unit may still make contact through normal charge movement (meaning double movement rate, wheeling, etc) then the its fine. A legal move for a chariot includes a free pivot. Look in the rulebook for chariots where it describes pivot, there is no maximum it can turn on the spot, it just says pivot. Turn completely around would be much harder for a unit of say cavalry who must wheel. Chariots have the ability to turn on the spot for free and complete whatever move they are doing, in this case a charge move.
This situation would be more common with other units under US5 but a chariot has the ability to still run the fleeing unit down BECAUSE it can pivot.

hiredgoonthug
04-08-2007, 03:51
See that's where I am still hung up. The rules for both chariots and mosters say you still have to abide by all other charging restrictions. Units cannot turn around and complete this charge unless they are skirmishers. Chariots and monsters are not skirmishers...

The only thing I can see here is that, being single models, they call it pivoting instead of making the units wheel or turn.

I'd concede the argument there, but even if I didn't I could imagine if two units charge from opposite sides and you flee THROUGH one you should die regardless.

Maybe we need a rule like "If a fleeing unit moves through one of the charging units it is destroyed."

I'm leaning in your favor now, but I'd prefer a rule like that.

eldrak
04-08-2007, 10:45
See that's where I am still hung up. The rules for both chariots and mosters say you still have to abide by all other charging restrictions. Units cannot turn around and complete this charge unless they are skirmishers.
Yes they can, there's no limit on the amount of turning (pivoting) they do when they do it during their charge.

There are other things that could make your charger loose sight of the enemy too while still being able to complete its charge like fleeing friendly/enemy troops.

Ninsaneja
04-08-2007, 11:43
I saw a similar situation yesterday with an Ogre Scraplauncher trying to charge the flank of a cavalry unit (Similar in that it seemed impossible for the chariot to make contact). There was another combat happening right next to the flank, leaving enough space for the scraplauncher but if he were to pivot he would make contact with a friendly unit (and he could not see the enemy in that combat).

In the end, we made the Scraplauncher move past the combat he wasn't charging into and then pivot almost all the way backwards to contact the flank of the charged unit, and then adjust to be flush against the charged unit.

hiredgoonthug
04-08-2007, 14:20
I think it's just a sucky situation. Units can't turn around to complete a charge like this, so if it's legal for a chariot to do it they are the only ones (along with Skirmishers) able to do so.

Atrahasis
04-08-2007, 14:22
I think it's just a sucky situation. Units can't turn around to complete a charge like this, so if it's legal for a chariot to do it they are the only ones (along with Skirmishers) able to do so.

Everything except ranked units can do it.

Kotobuki
04-08-2007, 15:13
hiredgoonthug, Monsters (of US4 or less, if put in this exact same situation) would be able to. A single character on foot, or a single model that is treated as cavalry would (they move as monsters), and unit of 2 cavalry models could quite easily have sufficient movement to complete a 180degree wheel (this costs less than 6.25", out of [generally] 14+), and still run down the unit.

Troops on foot, and in a rigid formation generally would not be able to do so... such is the constraint of moving in such a tight formation. It hardly makes it unfair.

Ninsaneja
04-08-2007, 17:38
Note that in such a situation they would be fleeing into a US5 enemy so it's only if it's 4 infantry or 2 cavalry models. 4 infantry models in this case would have to wheel in an attempt to contact the enemy anyway, they'd just stop before they'd even turned around fully.

Deacon Bane
04-08-2007, 18:18
Couple of thoughts, Shartmatau there are situations where the chariot can not successfully charge even if it has range, Pg 23 "Enemy in the way".

Since the chariot was in the front arc of the unit when the charge was declared ? RAW would require it to attack the front of the unit, with enough distance it would have to circle around the unit not just make contact.

Atrahasis
04-08-2007, 18:32
The unit, once fleeing doesn't have a front, flank or rear, so that is irrelevant.

lparigi34
04-08-2007, 21:11
Maybe we need a rule like "If a fleeing unit moves through one of the charging units it is destroyed."

I'm leaning in your favor now, but I'd prefer a rule like that.

Me too, as the presented situation is odd enough, but not as much as to be disregarded.

The Chariot is also charging the same unit, and charging units that catch you must destroy you too, it doesn't matter that it was because the fleeing unit ran towards it.

If it doesn't happen like this, some may argue that if the pursuers unit is less than US5 then they cannot destroy a unit caught while fleeing form them.

theunwantedbeing
04-08-2007, 21:33
The charges are declared.
The unit flee's away from the highest unit strength charger.
It flee's through the chariot,but isnt destroyed as its only us4.
Then the chargers are moved.
In whatever order they were declared.

The fleeing unit has already declared its flee move,and has moved its required amount.

If it got another flee movement then all troops that elect to flee from chargers would flee twice.
Once initially,and a second time when you actually moved the chargers.....

shartmatau
04-08-2007, 23:31
Couple of thoughts, Shartmatau there are situations where the chariot can not successfully charge even if it has range, Pg 23 "Enemy in the way".

That is perfectly valid. If for example you have these units in a line
Dragon, Soon to be Fleeing Enemy Unit, Chariot, Enemy unit

And the fleeing unit fled through the chariot and end up on top of its friendly unit, thus pushing it to the other side of that friendly unit. Then the chariot would flip around and have enemy in the way and not be able to destroy the fleeing unit.

But in this or any case, the chariot could destroy the fleeing unit AS LONG AS it can make a legal charge move and make contact with it. This would be problematic with the unit in the way because the chariot is only allowed to pivot once during the charge move. Possible to do, but not probable.