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bluebugs
02-08-2007, 23:50
Well, I recently came into possession of a chaos army. It was from a former friend who has given up so to speak. He used it many times against me and only won when luck was on his side, in other words, he sucked at the game. He put all his points into lords and filled the bare minimum everything else. So I now have a shagagoth, 5 chaos knights, 20 warriors, and somewhere around like 20 horrors. I also have like 10 characters. So I was wondering, how does an army of warriors fair? I know they're pricey, and protecting them is even pricier, so please tell me, how do warriors do?

theunwantedbeing
02-08-2007, 23:59
He sucked at the game?.....thats not a nice thing to say,even about a former friend.Please show a little more respect about your opponents.

Anywho.....

Chaos warriors dont work unless they have multiple attacks.
Chosen work fine,as do khornate/frenzied warriors.
Otherwise your better spending your points elsewhere.

To protect them you just need a unit of warhounds or a beastherd to act as a screen.Warhounds are generally the more useful as you dont have to use up your special slots in cheap screens,plus the warhounds are faster and cheaper as a smaller unit.

That or you simply have a big beastie somewhere else on the table to draw fire away from them.
Like a shaggoth,who also is particularly poor for his points,you'll be better off using him as a chaos giant with the mutant monstrosity upgrade.

Makaber
03-08-2007, 00:05
Short story, no they're not good.

Long story: They have good stats, but they're also extremely expensive. Furthermore, when going for a full blown regiment of the guys, you're only ever using the stats of the models actually fighting, meaning the vast bulk of the regiment ends up as a rank bonus you paid unreasonably much for. To make matters worse, while they're tough, they're not that though, especially without shields. So you can either give them shields, in which case they struggle to generate enough kills for the CR they need to win fights, or you can give them more offensive weapon options, leaving them wide open and extremely vulnerable to hard-hitting charges.

Now, I don't think they're that bad, but you have to be conservative in how you use them. Don't go for huge blocks, use Marauders for that. Instead, deploy them in small units with offensive weapon options, and use them to support the Marauder regiments. Two hand weapons is a pretty good bet. Mark of Khorne can be a winner, combine it with great weapons and they churn out a lot of high strength attacks.

So, in conclution. Are they good? Yes and no. They're not good in the conventional sense, as large blocks you form an army around. For this, they are just too damn expensive: Every super-regiment you have will cost twice as much as the opponent's, without being twice as good. However, they have undeniably good stats, so a small unit or two could be a worthwhile addition to a chaos army, as long as you keep them relativly cheap and task-spesific.

Aflo
03-08-2007, 01:23
Chaos warriors were alwats a big disappointment for me. The look of themwere what drew me to chaos in the first place, especially big shimmering (well with Tzeentch anyway) blocks of them. Unfortunately this method of using them is obselete as has already been mentioned by my fellow warseers.

I have experimented quite heavily with them as I do so detest the marauder minis and found that they do indeed work best chosen with hand weapon and shield and a warbanner in units of 12 (6x2). A 2+ save, 2 attacks each and a generic combat res of 3? Yes please! I rarely use them now howver as I prefer to use a much faster and hittier force and, like many other chaos players, prefer to spend the 300 odd points on a nice unit of chosen knights instead :D

Regards
Aflo (Adam)

Putty
03-08-2007, 02:22
I myself started a Chaos army recently. Having played Wood elves prior, Warriors suffer from the same problems as another important woodlelves unit, the Wardancer.

Both are great units but one of the things that let them down is their movement.

One of the ways to use Warriors *rather* effectively is for them to be abit of a point sink. They stand pretty well against shooting but not war machines (but what can?) so even if you have screens and such, a good cannon shot can easy take out a few of the guys. So for them to reach the enemy line with enough guys to last a few turns, they are usually taken in blocks of 12 (if 12 they are usually marked), 15, 18 or 20.

Oh where was I... yeah their movement rate. The best way (I feel) to make them run faster across the board and start beating the opponent's unit over the head repeatedly is to give a unit of them the mark of Khorne.

+1 A, Frenzy.

with Frenzy they double their movement rate and with +1 A they can dish more damage but don't stop there, give them two hand weapons and they will go bonkers with 3 A. and add chosen. 4 A. Once they hit the enemy lines, they will pretty much eat most of the core troops other armies field, and they will keep on going. their 3+ armor save allows them to survive abit. if you got spare points you might even want to just add a unit champion (he will have FIVE attacks) don't forget to give them shields... they will need it for the +3 armor save.

However, a 15 man Warrior unit like that easily costs 417 points (no unit champion). And that is alot of points if your playing lower pointage games <1500.

Other commonly used chaos units like mounted marauders, knights, mounted daemonettes, furies, warhounds or fleshhounds are so fast, warriors always got problems catching up. The Hellcannon as one of the only shooting units in the army (ignore sorcerers atm) a chaos army isn't a shooty army. it's a pretty *IM GONNA GET YOU NOW* kind of army. xD

Warriors can be used and rather effectively also, but unfortunately they are down the line with regards to pecking order. Looking around nowadays, there is so much "shootiness" in other armies (empire, dwarves, wood elves, elves, skaven) that Warriors seem to to be just... slow.

I now field two warrior units, one undivided with standard. 5 x 5, harbard, shield and another 5 x 3, Khorne, extra handed weapon, shield, standard. Needless to say most of the enemy fire goes into the Khorne ones, I play against dwarves most of the time (the pain... the pain!!!) so I have to tie up the bloody cannon and quarrellers with fleshhounds and furies first.

If you do decide to use warriors, do expect them to get shot up (or if your opponent is wise enuff, they will ignore them and go for your knights instead).

Sorry for the long post... I love my warriors to bits... and i get annoyed when my friends target them just because of that xD

MarcoPollo
03-08-2007, 04:32
Chaos warriors suck. Trade them back.

Makaber
03-08-2007, 11:17
with Frenzy they double their movement rate

Uh, what? No they don't. Frenzied troops move at exactly the same speed as usual.

Punk_in_Drublic
03-08-2007, 12:46
But they move very angry-like.

Later,

-Punk

Briohmar
03-08-2007, 14:05
I dig Warriors as well, but sadly, they are just not economical in a normal sized Chaos force (1500, 2000) I use a lot of warriors in my 8000 point, and 10000 point lists, and do include chosen warriors in the 4000 point list, but there are just so many other things that compete for the points. If you can field 2 units of knights, 4 of warriors, 3 Marauder units, 2 Marauder horse, beast herd, Slaangors (oops Bestigors), Minotaurs, Mounted Daemonettes, Furies, 25 Hounds, an a whole lot of spawn, then the warriors are cool, but not until you're at that point.

Havock
03-08-2007, 14:45
they are expensive, I am only starting, but I am thinking of a larger 15-men block (possibly a tzeentch magic bunker) and a second, smaller group to support (possibly with great weapons?)

Putty
03-08-2007, 15:11
Uh, what? No they don't. Frenzied troops move at exactly the same speed as usual.

Oh dear your right! I think I mixed up Frenzy with something else... Righteous Zeal perhaps? xD

But thanks for the correction!

Punk_in_Drublic
03-08-2007, 15:58
Chaos warriors suck. Trade them back.

I'm quoting that :D

Later,

-Punk

Exalted Scar-vet
03-08-2007, 16:21
Chaos warriors=useless

Lord Steven
03-08-2007, 16:32
The only use I've found for my two boxes worth are to use them 'counts as' marauders.

I've not met an opponent who has denied their use as marauders. Afterall, the game is based upon pretending.

athamas
03-08-2007, 16:40
its possible to use them, if you use them correctly, which is support for marauder blocks with a champion in, they then act as flankers and if chosen/khorne with halberds, can lay hurt on almost anything..

using them as big blocks only works occasionaly for nurgle... other than that, they do indeed suck!

W0lf
03-08-2007, 16:46
they are expensive, I am only starting, but I am thinking of a larger 15-men block (possibly a tzeentch magic bunker)

Option 1:15 warriors with Shields, Full command and MoT = 255 pts

Option 2: 2 Tzeentch Chariots with MoT each = 280 pts.
Option 3: 30 Marauders with Light armour, shields, full command 235 pts


Do the math....

What would you rather have? :P

_Lucian_
03-08-2007, 17:39
tbh ive been plaing chaos for 6 years and the 1 thing ive learned (maybe biased due to my poor luck) but i would never pay 21 points (chosen with shield) for a troop whos only ld8 and comes in small (20ish units). 1 bad leadership test will make all those points vanish very quickly. undivided, slan and khorne are definatly the best choices (all ignore/re-roll ld tests). Khorne with halberds (you have I5 make sure you dont waste it, plus S5 is often more than enough with 3A each). Slaanesh with shields and rapturous standard (the ultimate immovable wall in close combat) and undivided un-upgraded with shields. ive seen units of 20+ basic warriors with shields do very well when flanked with 20 strong beastherds and a exalted champion with Rending sword/Slaugtherers blade in centre. when it comes to the shagoth ebay him and buy some maruder cavalry and hounds, i have ALOT of hounds in my army. i even toyed with 3 units of 20 a while back (used converted wolves), worked quite well due to rank bonus and outnumbering for 120point units.

The key thing to remember is either as flankers with halbers/great weapons or cheap and cheerful in the middle as a anchor for your line

Urgat
03-08-2007, 17:41
its possible to use them, if you use them correctly, which is support for marauder blocks with a champion in, they then act as flankers and if chosen/khorne with halberds, can lay hurt on almost anything..

That's what I'd do too. I'm sure that conbined with a decently large unit of marrauders, a small unit of chaos warriors (5) would make a perfect flanking support, with whatever weapon depending on the army you're facing.

_Lucian_
03-08-2007, 17:50
only problem with 5 is they are too much of a *EASY VICTORY POINTS HERE* unit. and can be charged down by even goblin cavalry

theunwantedbeing
03-08-2007, 19:19
The minimum size for chaos warrior units is 10....you cant take 5 of them,thats silly.
Highly abusuable in tzeentch armies as well.
90pts for a free powerdice? yes please ^_^

_Lucian_
03-08-2007, 19:23
omg thats shows how long ive been playing, still got last edition chaos in my head....

Urgat
03-08-2007, 19:26
yeah well 5, 10, whatever, I still think it's a good idea :p

bluebugs
03-08-2007, 19:42
thank you all for the feed back, but I should mention I am planning on doing a Tzeench list. Khorne, slannesh, and nurgle don't really fit my personality and If I'm going to be evil, I want to be proper. So What I've gathered it they're amazing flankers (going to go with halberds), Don't get a lot, I may use 10. And use lots of fasties like knights, which I own, hounds, and daemons.

athamas
03-08-2007, 20:26
if you are taking a fast army, leave them at home,

for PD generation chariots are cheaper, and will keep up with your army...

bluebugs
03-08-2007, 21:16
if you are taking a fast army, leave them at home,

for PD generation chariots are cheaper, and will keep up with your army...

Yeah, but I already have the models, no point in letting them go to waste.

W0lf
03-08-2007, 22:02
use them as chariot crewman. Its what i did.

The chariot crewmen atm are the old models.

Best use of the warrior models imo :P

Dead Man Walking
03-08-2007, 23:02
I find Chaos warriors to be quite useful.

They are good.
They are not good for thier costs. For thier costs they need to have 2 attacks just like a saurus. Let us hope the new edition will help us out.

I like to field 3 units of 20 Khorne warriors, with 2 attacks each they can walk over most competition.

I also field 2 units of 20 warriors and 1 unit of 20 maruaders (with first strike GW hero) in my slaanesh army. I want my army to take its time coming across the table since Slaanesh army requires me to mess with my opponents in the magic phase before I get into combat to ensure that combat is on my terms. I can't do that if I am running in on turn 2 and they brought 3 dispel scrolls and 6 dispell dice. However by turn 4 my opponents are usually spent and I can unload on them.

The large ranked up units aided by various spells can be quite attrocious. Making 20 warriors frenzied, unbreakable or forcing an opponent to expose a flank or making it so they cant fight and are autohit usually wins me the entire battle. The large ranked up units protect my mages and if something goes horribly wrong you can rely on them staying much better than demons, chariots or mauraders. (Frankly the strikes first great weapon hero has to hold the hand of the mauraders the whole game.)

Then the unit that protects the level 4 mage gets the rapturous standard, which has allowed the warriors to survive being attacked by hard hitting units from all kinds of directions.

This is the expression of my opponent when they run into 20 frenzied Rapturous standard warriors ->:eek:

This is the expression of my opponent who runs into the aforementioned unit with elves. ->:cries:

MarcoPollo
04-08-2007, 05:17
Chaos warriors would be great at 5 models per unit. At 5 models per unit, they would be worth considering. I realize that the Tzeetch/khorne loophole could be abused, but atleast people would start to play them.

_Lucian_
04-08-2007, 09:14
only problem with big ranked warriors is empire gun lines.... but if your taking fast units leave the warriors at home, they wont be usefull as your main line will be too split up.

What else do you fit into your army dead man? seems quite pricy with a lvl4 and 2 units of 20 warriors? hounds and chariots maybe?

logan054
04-08-2007, 09:59
At least with gunlines its rather easy to get round the gunlines, beast herds, they make perfect screens as most things are hitting them on a 6+ anyways, they certainly arnt the best choice. When they used you really only have a few options

unit of 15 with MoK or extra hand weapons, i have used heavy warrior list with great succuss simply due to fact my armies were generally larger than my opponents (i've out numbered empire with a warrior list before).

For a tzeentch they could be ok if you take exalted heros rather than a lord (hes far to expensive at 2k), personally i think it depends on what kind of person you are, win at all costs or play to have fun.

If you have a single unit atleats you can have a warbanner to get your static combat res up to +4 (saving you arounf 50pts +

Talking about a new army book i dont see GW doing much to fix the issue that is really with all elite infantry, the problem is with the cost of units like chaso warriors so much but more with the cost of knights, i think across the board these really need to be increased by around 20-25% cos how often does the lack of static combat res really effect them, i think even more so with chaos knights. Maybe chaos warriors need a slight price decrease or a special rule but when compared to units like spearmen a price decrease to much would then make all these units devalued.

_Lucian_
04-08-2007, 10:09
i think their price is fine, making them more expensive would be a mistake, the troop choice is such a rare occurance is armies anyway. TBH if the HE rumours are true it will set the standard of true elite infantry in the new edition far more than any other army list to date. maybe chaos will changed depending on what happens to the elves

logan054
04-08-2007, 15:41
You think the price of chaos warriors or cavarly is fine? (cos my orignal statement is that knights need a price increase rather than warriors) its certainly one or the other that needs something doing with as if they gain some special abilty and still cost the same then it cetainly is a issue with current prices.

W0lf
04-08-2007, 19:04
You think the price of chaos warriors or cavarly is fine?

Chaos knights yes. Maybe a 2 pts per model increase but nothing more.

Warriors? no. Add a attack to their base profile and put them at I4 and its all good.

That or drop them by 2 pts a model and increase knights by 2 pts to counter balance.

winter has ended
04-08-2007, 19:12
but if you drop them by two points they are cheaper then black orcs, which they are better then

Ninsaneja
04-08-2007, 19:18
but if you drop them by two points they are cheaper then black orcs, which they are better then

Black Orcs get their weapons for free. Also, Black Orcs have Choppas. Also, Black Orcs exist in a different army and may be balanced being more expensive. Also, Black Orcs have a better champion.

W0lf
04-08-2007, 19:21
but if you drop them by two points they are cheaper then black orcs, which they are better then

they are from diffrent codexes.

To balance armies each army needs good internal balance.

Adjusting warriors is about making better internal balance.

You cant cross compare...

winter has ended
04-08-2007, 20:01
sorry then, but i do agree that they need reduction point wise, i just wonder why everyone at my local gw says that black orcs are over priced and they are a lot worse then chaos warriors:wtf:

Ninsaneja
04-08-2007, 21:36
Everyone at your local GW must not know how to use Black Orcs.

logan054
05-08-2007, 06:50
im actually talking about all calavry being underpriced, this has been broken since 6th ed but GW never bothered to fix this, i think anyone can really se this if you see just how few infantry exist among serious win at any cost players. Its not just the chaos warriors that have a issue in the chaos book, i think daemons have just as bad a issue as well, daemon prince really do suck

Ninsaneja
05-08-2007, 11:58
The problem with the Daemon Prince is twofold:
-He uses two character slots, making it hard to have heavy magic with him and limiting your other character choices.
-He can't lead the stronger mortal units.
Daemons are terrible. They lack static CR are are very expensive (They can't take command and they cost too much to rank up). They don't make a good core. Mortal armies are much better.

logan054
05-08-2007, 13:44
Yeah i very much agree with your statements, it just dameons however, its most things that fit into eliete infantry.

manickze
05-08-2007, 21:55
Chaos Warriors are the weakest points sink a chaos general can take. Having played a Mortal Chaos army from 5th edition and ditching them because I found them to be a huge waste of points, I'd consider anything else other than Chaos Warriors. They're 3 points too expensive for their lack of special rules. In a Mortal army, Marauders are much better but their models are teh titty sux.

W0lf
05-08-2007, 22:12
Chaos Warriors are the weakest points sink a chaos general can take. Having played a Mortal Chaos army from 5th edition and ditching them because I found them to be a huge waste of points, I'd consider anything else other than Chaos Warriors. They're 3 points too expensive for their lack of special rules. In a Mortal army, Marauders are much better but their models are teh titty sux.

QFT.

Not much more to say tbh ;)